The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[dragonball0900]

Alright, how about:
Piccolo (Post RoSAT) vs FPSSJ Goku (Less than half)

Warm up Cell vs FPSSJ Goku (Less than half)

Grade 3 Trunks (No speed loss) vs FPSSJ Goku (50%)

1. I'd say Goku would still win since I have Cell Games Piccolo at 40% of Goku. Piccolo is probably surpassing the ASSJ saiyans, but a bit below Initial Perfect Cell.

2. I suppose you are referring to Initial Perfect Cell? If that's the case then I still have Goku winning, since USSJ Trunks was stated to surpass Cell in power, and USSJ Trunks would logically be below 50% Goku since Trunks and the others were completely amazed when Goku displayed his 50% of power at Korin's. I'd say Goku wins, if using like 45% of power.

3. Explained in my answer in 2, Trunks and the others were amazed at Goku's 50% of power at Korin's, so I guess that Goku would win even if Trunks doesn't have speed loss. Specially since he is more experienced and has more techniques.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Alright, how about:
Piccolo (Post RoSAT) vs FPSSJ Goku (Less than half)

Warm up Cell vs FPSSJ Goku (Less than half)

Grade 3 Trunks (No speed loss) vs FPSSJ Goku (50%)

1. I'd say Goku would still win since I have Cell Games Piccolo at 40% of Goku. Piccolo is probably surpassing the ASSJ saiyans, but a bit below Initial Perfect Cell.

2. I suppose you are referring to Initial Perfect Cell? If that's the case then I still have Goku winning, since USSJ Trunks was stated to surpass Cell in power, and USSJ Trunks would logically be below 50% Goku since Trunks and the others were completely amazed when Goku displayed his 50% of power at Korin's. I'd say Goku wins, if using like 45% of power.

3. Explained in my answer in 2, Trunks and the others were amazed at Goku's 50% of power at Korin's, so I guess that Goku would win even if Trunks doesn't have speed loss. Specially since he is more experienced and has more techniques.

Goku vs 7 Cell Jrs. and everyone else at the Cell Games besides Gohan and Cell

[dragonball0900]

Goku vs 7 Cell Jrs. and everyone else at the Cell Games besides Gohan and Cell

I'd say that's just too much for Goku, although giving the big difference in power between him and the others maybe Goku has a chance of winning to all of them if he puts all his effort and best techniques into it.

[dragon boss z]

But still, this Goku is much stronger than the Goku from 3 years ago, and it's not really stated that his match level is below his level from 3 years ago, is it? Goku was having really fun with his match with Krillin. Goku even said he was very excited. To make a much stronger Goku than 3 years back feeling excited would really mean a lot.

And Beerus being stronger than SSB kaioken x10 Goku means that when he fought SSG Goku in the BoG arc he was way over 10 times stronger than him making the whole fight irrelevant. Dragon ball just does things like that.

[apex_pretador]

Piccolo (Post RoSAT) vs FPSSJ Goku (Less than half)

Warm up Cell vs FPSSJ Goku (Less than half)

Grade 3 Trunks (No speed loss) vs FPSSJ Goku (50%)

Piccolo
Cell
Trunks

[dragonball0900]

But still, this Goku is much stronger than the Goku from 3 years ago, and it's not really stated that his match level is below his level from 3 years ago, is it? Goku was having really fun with his match with Krillin. Goku even said he was very excited. To make a much stronger Goku than 3 years back feeling excited would really mean a lot.

And Beerus being stronger than SSB kaioken x10 Goku means that when he fought SSG Goku in the BoG arc he was way over 10 times stronger than him making the whole fight irrelevant. Dragon ball just does things like that.

Goku down-right stated how he was having fun with his match with Krillin. Also everyone incluiding Roshi, were surprised at Goku's improvement, his moves and everything, even when Goku was just using his match level and being suppressed, they were still amazed by Goku's new power. And Krillin did much better against this improved Goku than what Tao did against a weaker Goku.

[dragon boss z]

The point is Chi-Chi won't die from bullets and those things definitely weren't stone pillars.

Then what the heck are they?

It most certainly does when you consider how the Turtle School training is actually like. Korin was also able to tell Goku was taught in the Turtle Hermit style just from his movement.

True I will concede on this. But you said she was training that way for 7 years. That is just a guess. And going through that training would only put her around 21st to 22nd Goku at max unless you think her potential is greater than Goku's, who went through far more than Roshi's training in that time.

Which you can't prove that they can't...also these are all more of matter of technique than strength.

I don't have to prove they can't. You have to prove they can. That's how debating works. What you just said was a fallacy.

Jackie never had problems but he wasn't shown doing it casually in that tournament and fighting up in the air definitely does mean something. It's waaayyyy harder to move around in the air than on ground and yet she was practically even hovering in the air while fighting.I also doubt Jackie Chun or Nam would be able to match Initial Weighted Goku's casual jumping height.

Um...

This was in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai... a few chapters after the stronger version of Roshi said the new generation had surpassed him. Besides, we're not talking about max power Roshi (which he never uses in combat till Resurrection F).

True. But still Chi-chi was pretty much fodder in the 23rd tournament and only got to the finals because she only fought other fodder. And Roshi said the next generation surpassed him, but he was also surprised when Krillin had a higher power level than him, and that was just Roshi's base.

Deflecting it would require no effort on #18's part... she's several times more powerful than Pre-RoF Freeza, who can destroy planets with just one finger, and they never said anything about spamming ki blasts.

No, Freeza is stronger than the farmer is so blatantly obvious that it's fucking stupid to make the comparison. This one is just not totally clear.

I didn't say it was a fact that Tao was stronger though. I said it was a fact he had better feats, which is true, unless you can prove me wrong and show me better feats.

Again. The Goku that Chappa fought is way stronger than when he beat Tao so he would stomp him just as easily if not more... in fact, he pretty much did just that once he went all out against him 3 years ago and can you give me example of a human moving so fast that he gives the illusion of having 8 arms in a fight? If it was really that unimpressed then Goku would've never used against Tien.

And it makes no difference if Goku was holding back. I fail to see how getting stomped by a holding back Goku means anything. Goku was actually getting pushed by Tao.

Except Jackie Chun was shown in shock when Goku knocked Chappa out of the ring not when he did that mouth blast and even if he didn't expression surprise on how easily Goku won, he still feared for his chances of winning the tournament when Goku confirmed he wasn't really trying against Chappa.

He clearly said it was the mouth blast he was surprised at.

But Chun also threw out there he was Tsuru's younger brother like it's important detail... implying he more likely feared the wrath of the Crane School (if he just threw in that piece of trivia for the sake of it then it's bad writing) and you're wrong about Tao's power being relevant. Krillin able to put up a good fight against the Goku that was far more powerful than the one that whooped Tao's ass 3 years ago... till he got serious, Yamcha was trading blows with Tien who was at the time comparable to that same Goku, and Crane Master was outright stated to be more powerful than Tao by Tien. Chiaotzu was also close to Krillin's power despite his lack of talent outside bukujutsu and telekinesis.

He threw in that detail because it was relevant to the crane school wanting revenge and raising the stakes, but he clearly thought it was unbelievable that Goku could beat Tao. Roshi looks surprised when he is saying how he can't believe Goku beat the number one assasin, he doesn't look really look that worried when telling Goku he is Tsuru's younger brother.

[dragon boss z]

Goku already made it clear that his tournament strength is below his actual fighting strength. (or is that a dub line that I'm remembering?) Either way Krillin is his friend and he was of course going easy on him.

But still, this Goku is much stronger than the Goku from 3 years ago, and it's not really stated that his match level is below his level from 3 years ago, is it? Goku was having really fun with his match with Krillin. Goku even said he was very excited. To make a much stronger Goku than 3 years back feeling excited would really mean a lot.

If you look at the context it's pretty clear that Kuririn is stronger than Tao. Before the match starts Kuririn thinks to himself that he's trained hard and he can win, he saw Goku's power back in the Uranai Baba Arc so he must at least be at that level.

Also, when Goku finishes Kuririn off, Tsuru Sennin says he really may good enough to beat Tao, keep in mind that Tsuru's extremely biased towards Tao so if he thinks the level Goku used against Kuririn could beat Tao then it definitely could, and Roshi says compared to Goku his position may be about to vanish, showing that the level Goku used against Kuririn is above even Roshi.

Considering how easily he wrecked Tao 3 years ago, the fact that he had to use his full match level power to beat Kuririn at the tournament shows that Kuririn is definitely stronger than Tao.

I could see Krillin being above Tao, but I would still say they are around the same league.

[dragon boss z]

But still, this Goku is much stronger than the Goku from 3 years ago, and it's not really stated that his match level is below his level from 3 years ago, is it? Goku was having really fun with his match with Krillin. Goku even said he was very excited. To make a much stronger Goku than 3 years back feeling excited would really mean a lot.

And Beerus being stronger than SSB kaioken x10 Goku means that when he fought SSG Goku in the BoG arc he was way over 10 times stronger than him making the whole fight irrelevant. Dragon ball just does things like that.

Goku down-right stated how he was having fun with his match with Krillin. Also everyone incluiding Roshi, were surprised at Goku's improvement, his moves and everything, even when Goku was just using his match level and being suppressed, they were still amazed by Goku's new power. And Krillin did much better against this improved Goku than what Tao did against a weaker Goku.

And Beerus outright said he was looking for a SSG to have fun in a fight and said he did have fun afterwards... I fail to see your point.

[dragonball0900]

And Beerus being stronger than SSB kaioken x10 Goku means that when he fought SSG Goku in the BoG arc he was way over 10 times stronger than him making the whole fight irrelevant. Dragon ball just does things like that.

Goku down-right stated how he was having fun with his match with Krillin. Also everyone incluiding Roshi, were surprised at Goku's improvement, his moves and everything, even when Goku was just using his match level and being suppressed, they were still amazed by Goku's new power. And Krillin did much better against this improved Goku than what Tao did against a weaker Goku.

And Beerus outright said he was looking for a SSG to have fun in a fight and said he did have fun afterwards... I fail to see your point.

Read well my post. Roshi, Krillin and Yamcha, who witnessed Goku's power 3 years ago, were amazed about Goku's new power, they even make comments throughout the whole arc like saying how Goku has trained and improved, and they were just talking about Match level Goku. That means that Match Level Goku is much stronger than Baba saga Goku. And Krillin did much better against that Goku than how Tao did against Goku from 3 years ago. And there's also a lot of proof that states that Chappa is stronger than Tao. It's obvious that Krillin and Yamcha are much stronger than Tao at this point in the 22nd Budokai.

[apex_pretador]

Chappa is nowhere near Tao but krillin is much stronger than Tao at 22nd TB

[dragon boss z]

Goku down-right stated how he was having fun with his match with Krillin. Also everyone incluiding Roshi, were surprised at Goku's improvement, his moves and everything, even when Goku was just using his match level and being suppressed, they were still amazed by Goku's new power. And Krillin did much better against this improved Goku than what Tao did against a weaker Goku.

And Beerus outright said he was looking for a SSG to have fun in a fight and said he did have fun afterwards... I fail to see your point.

Read well my post. Roshi, Krillin and Yamcha, who witnessed Goku's power 3 years ago, were amazed about Goku's new power, they even make comments throughout the whole arc like saying how Goku has trained and improved, and they were just talking about Match level Goku. That means that Match Level Goku is much stronger than Baba saga Goku. And Krillin did much better against that Goku than how Tao did against Goku from 3 years ago. And there's also a lot of proof that states that Chappa is stronger than Tao. It's obvious that Krillin and Yamcha are much stronger than Tao at this point in the 22nd Budokai.

I can see Krillin and Yamcha being above Tao, but there is not a lot of proof that states Chappa is stronger than Tao. And Krillin and Tien couldn't even see Goku's speed at full power during the baba arc, and they couldn't sense power levels back then. They couldn't of known if they were stronger than baba arc Goku at full power.

[Ki Breaker]

Chappa is nowhere near Tao but krillin is much stronger than Tao at 22nd TB

I read that as Champa instead of chappa

[Shlugo]

Buu Arc SSJ Goku vs Full Power Perfect Cell

Goku. Dabura was initially deemed to be the same level as Cell, and Vegeta went "Pfft he's nothing much." and Goku agreed with him, not even knowing that Vegeta has achieved SSJ2. And even when Dabura was shown to be stronger than they initially deemed him, Vegeta still was not impressed.


Goku who was stronger than Vegeta at this point would make a short work of Cell.

[AvatarReiko]

Buu Arc SSJ Goku vs Full Power Perfect Cell

Goku. Dabura was initially deemed to be the same level as Cell, and Vegeta went "Pfft he's nothing much." and Goku agreed with him, not even knowing that Vegeta has achieved SSJ2. And even when Dabura was shown to be stronger than they initially deemed him, Vegeta still was not impressed.


Goku who was stronger than Vegeta at this point would make a short work of Cell.

Begs the question. How much stronger was FP Perfect Cell compared to the likes of MSSJ Goku and Gohan? He was able to fight them while suppressed the whole time(albeit was forced to increase his speed against the latter)but still seemed to put in a lot of effort at times and was genuinely outmaneuvered by Goku's IT KK, which resulted in him losing a lot of Ki(would have died without regen). Could the Z-senshu have defeated him if they had all ganged up on him?

Anyway...

- SSJ Trunks vs SSJ Goku(Post-Yadrat)
- Yamcha & Krillin vs Tien (23rd budokai)
- Piccolo(Pre-Kami) vs SSJ Trunks(Pre-ROSAT)
- Supreme Kai & Kibito vs Full Power Perfect Cell

[DBZAOTA482]

Then what the heck are they?

Considering stones aren't naturally designed like that especially in the middle of barren desert and judoing by the structure, they're probably either just rock formations or tree columns.

True I will concede on this. But you said she was training that way for 7 years. That is just a guess. And going through that training would only put her around 21st to 22nd Goku at max unless you think her potential is greater than Goku's, who went through far more than Roshi's training in that time.

I never said that was the only bit of training she had. It only took Goku and Krillin 7 months to complete the training (they had a bit of a headstart due to already having the basics down), and Chi-Chi likely went through the same in addition to her own training for the remaining years.

I don't have to prove they can't. You have to prove they can. That's how debating works. What you just said was a fallacy.

No you have to prove your claim first so I can disprove it, unless it's something really fucking obvious. Not to mention it's a stupid argument to make in the first place because it's like arguing Videl after learning to control her ki is stronger than Goten before training with Govan because she can fly while he can't and that's obviously not true.

Anyways, for my proof... Goten had demonstrated having ki control and knows what it is even before training with Gohan. Keep in mind Chi-Chi was said to be his only teacher at the time.

Um...

That proves nothing except Nam having a harder time keeping up with Goku in the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai than Chi-Chi did with a far stronger Goku. My point is Chi-Chi can very easily jumped higher if she wanted to but she chose only jumped high enough to match Goku's casual jumping height which fighters far weaker than their opponents couldn't even hope of doing. You can only jump as fast as you are and can jump high depending on your strength.

True. But still Chi-chi was pretty much fodder in the 23rd tournament and only got to the finals because she only fought other fodder. And Roshi said the next generation surpassed him, but he was also surprised when Krillin had a higher power level than him, and that was just Roshi's base.

I doubt Toriyama would go out of his way to depict her as a strong fighter and give her such praising statements from even Goku and co. if she were meant to be fodder. Toriyama had her pass through the prelims of the hardest year of the Tenkaichi Budokai with ease while Yajirobe and Chiaotzu didn't for a reason...

As far as we know all of the finalists aside from Goku, Shen, and Tao didn't fight anyone of note in the prelims. You're only proving your bias with this part and speaking of bias...

Again, a blast that only destroy a stadium would be like tennis to her and this page also proves the kids are stronger because Trunks held back a great deal with the blast yet it was enough to spook her.

Also, it's not like Trunks would just carelessly launch ki blasts at her. He's shown to have great control over his ki.

I didn't say it was a fact that Tao was stronger though. I said it was a fact he had better feats, which is true, unless you can prove me wrong and show me better feats.

Except you did say it's a fact...

And it makes no difference if Goku was holding back. I fail to see how getting stomped by a holding back Goku means anything. Goku was actually getting pushed by Tao.

Kinda does considering Goku had to at least put in some effort instead of treating the fight like child's play like he did with Akkuman and that's more than Tao could've done as he already got stmoped a far weaker Goku when he got serious.

He clearly said it was the mouth blast he was surprised at.

Except in the page before Jackie Chun was shown shocked after Goku kicked Chappa and it's elementary actions speak louder than words. You're also ignoring the fact Chun feared for his chances after Goku defeated Chappa with basically no effort.

He threw in that detail because it was relevant to the crane school wanting revenge and raising the stakes, but he clearly thought it was unbelievable that Goku could beat Tao. Roshi looks surprised when he is saying how he can't believe Goku beat the number one assasin, he doesn't look really look that worried when telling Goku he is Tsuru's younger brother.

Chun's disbelief at Goku can imply something other than power... it likely could be based on reputation to empathize how great Goku is in general considering Tsuru didn't even believe Goku killed Tao till he beat Krillin with the super fast karate chops despite clearly being far stronger. It wouldn't make sense for Chun to hold Tao's power with such high regard at that point when he can just wipe his ass with Tao

[dragonball0900]

I can see Krillin and Yamcha being above Tao, but there is not a lot of proof that states Chappa is stronger than Tao. And Krillin and Tien couldn't even see Goku's speed at full power during the baba arc, and they couldn't sense power levels back then. They couldn't of known if they were stronger than baba arc Goku at full power.

Krillin and Yamcha at least would know how much they had improved and would know that they were stronger, they were confident in doing something at the Tournament. Goku also had fun with Krillin's match, as well as how Roshi, Yamcha and Krillin said Goku has improved, even though Goku was still in match power. Even though they couldn't sense power levels, the story is telling us how it actually is, Goku's suppressed match level against Krillin is indeed much stronger than his full power in the Baba arc. Goku also manages to fight better with Krillin than with Tao, and Baba arc Goku.

I'm pretty sure this Krillin is above Baba arc Goku, for the reasons I said about Chappa being stronger than Tao. Roshi being worried about Goku's tough match against Chappa, even after learning all the feats Goku has done in the past, in the Baba tournament and destroying the Red Ribbon Army's HQ.

Akkuman < Tao < Post Korin Goku <= Chappa < Yamcha <= Krillin < Suppressed Match Level Goku < Full Match Level Goku - There are full of statements suggesting this way.

Anyway...

- SSJ Trunks vs SSJ Goku(Post-Yadrat)
- Yamcha & Krillin vs Tien (23rd budokai)
- Piccolo(Pre-Kami) vs SSJ Trunks(Pre-ROSAT)
- Supreme Kai & Kibito vs Full Power Perfect Cell

- I have Goku winning, since Trunks complimented him, as well as how he was able to use his finger against Trunks' sword attacks.

- Yamcha and Krillin would be in trouble against Tien because of his speed and strenght, since they were not able to see him back in the tournament. However, if they work together they might do something, Yamcha also has his Spirit Ball, that surprised Kami, so maybe it will do something to Tien.

- I have Trunks winning, since he was considered nearly in the same tier as Vegeta and Goku, and Piccolo was not really mentioned.

- Full Power Perfect Cell is just too much for them. They might do something with Supreme Kai's paralyzation, but Cell at Full Power would just be too much, and Kibito is just a bit weaker than Base Gohan.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Tenshinhan and Weighted Goku (23rd Budokai) vs Popo

[DanielSSJ]

Tenshinhan and Weighted Goku (23rd Budokai) vs Popo

The two of them together should be more than a match for Mr. Popo, even if Goku does the bulk of the work

[TheUltimateNinja]

Tenshinhan and Weighted Goku (23rd Budokai) vs Popo

The two of them together should be more than a match for Mr. Popo, even if Goku does the bulk of the work

But Weighted Goku's speed was comparable to the speed he had against Daimao, and the Goku of that time was absolutely no match for Popo in terms of speed.