Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
Noah wrote: I agree that maybe the two last arcs of Dragon Ball were full of dumb decisions, but I always felt like that was something to show these characters are not flawless and that's what made the story somewhat interesting in my point of view.
I imagine you mean to get the plot moving by any means necessary? Honestly I would argue that the Cell, Android arc and Buu saga are prehaps the worst that Goku ever was. Transforming him into a full blown blood knight who constantly made everything worse on the chance that he could sate his battle boner, he also constantly risked everything and only once it didn't actually blow up in his face.
Heck the Cell arc and Buu arc would improve tremendously with the removal of all the dumb stuff that happens in them.
I couldn't disagree more. Goku in the Androids and Boo arc is such an incredible progression of his character. He's flawed but has a maturity and logic to his actions that never betrays his core character.
I think both those arcs would suffer tremendously without the "dumb stuff."
What do you mean mature? This is the Goku who gave Cell a Senzu bean, who let a monster like Gero continue making his androids, even though a guy came from the future and told them that they lose to them. Buu Saga Goku and Cell Saga Goku constantly and consistently makes everything worse for his own self entertainment. And Super Goku is the logical progression of that.
The dumb stuff includes Vegeta the Cell enabler, the future timeline, android 18 and 17, SS3 and everyone not being idiots to progress the plot as they where in the androids arc.
Goku didn't know Vegeta had SSJ2, his intent was to curbstomp him immediately.
AND? When faced with Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta, he could've gone one step further. Even if it was just an assumption, Goku likes a challenge and Vegeta wasn't a challenge for him at that point.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Goku didn't know Vegeta had SSJ2, his intent was to curbstomp him immediately.
AND? When faced with Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta, he could've gone one step further. Even if it was just an assumption, Goku likes a challenge and Vegeta wasn't a challenge for him at that point.
Saying Toriyama didn't think of 3 when he wrote Goku vs Vegeta round 2 is all well and good out of universe but in-universe it doesn't make any sense. Goku wants to rip Vegeta a one one quickly so Boo can't catch and there's no reason for him NOT to do this by activating SS3.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
ekrolo2 wrote:Saying Toriyama didn't think of 3 when he wrote Goku vs Vegeta round 2 is all well and good out of universe but in-universe it doesn't make any sense. Goku wants to rip Vegeta a one one quickly so Boo can't catch and there's no reason for him NOT to do this by activating SS3.
In-Universe Explanation:The gap between Goku and Vegeta before the Majin power-up was huge, and Goku thought that he could end the fight quickly. But Vegeta's beyond limit power-up allowed him to fight equally with Goku. The fight had already begun and Goku had lost his chance to become a SS3.
Or, he just wanted to enjoy the fight. Or maybe a mixture of both?
ABED wrote:Vegeta just murdered a ton of people. Goku doesn't see him as a good guy. And yes, you can ignore statements since actions speak louder than words. If a character says something, but their actions show otherwise, then you go with what they do. At best, you are trying to come up with reasons why Goku didn't turn Super Saiyan but since Toriyama didn't think of the transformation until after Goku vs. Vegeta II, at best you are putting a square peg in a round hole. Goku values a challenge when he's at his best. SS2 was not his best. I can't make heads or tails of your last few sentences. Vegeta most definitely still held a grudge.
I didn't said Goku saw him as a good guy either, but Goku did saw that he changed, that's why he tried to rationalize with him. No you can't ignore character statements when they provide a reason why 'x' character didn't did 'y' thing for example. We're discussing In-Universe here, so yes, of course I'm trying to reason with Goku's actions ignoring what the author planned to do in the future, if you're going pull the card "Oh but the author didn't intend to do that" so there's no point in having a forum here in Kanzenshuu, entitled "In-Universe". Goku values a challenge being at his best, but he wasn't used to SSJ3 as he was with SSJ2, confident that he could beat Vegeta even though they were almost equal in power. Ignore character statements as much as you want, it won't change the fact why he didn't use it on Vegeta. His grudge was because Goku and Gohan had surpassed him and saved his life before, he felt incompetent, incapable of overcoming his obstacles, that's why he did all that mess and felt responsible for Majin Boo that's why he sacrificed himself, in the end he realized what he did was not the best. Now if you're talking about Vegeta holding a grudge about Goku not using SSJ3 on him, their later interactions prove it that was solved, even with Vegeta still motivated to surpass Goku someday as in the Kanzenban ending.
In universe or out of universe is irrelevant when bad writing leads to continuity mistakes. You can't ignore that. And yes, you can disregard statements from characters when their actions aren't consistent with what they say. Why do everyone of you guys keep bringing up "this is in-universe" as if that's a trump card? In-universe means diddly squat if the writing is inconsistent. It's not mere intention, Toriyama's lack of planning lead to logical inconsistencies and character inconsistencies. If a characters actions are at odds with what they say, which do you think holds more weight?
Your point about SS2 is still desperately trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Goku may not have been used to his new form, but he clearly has enough power to defeat Vegeta without much effort using it. I know he didn't use SS3 on Vegeta and it's because Toriyama didn't think of it yet and he did his best to cover for that lack of planning but he couldn't.
There is no in-universe explanation for Goku not using Super Saiyan 3. He never lost his chance to transform and Goku wouldn't enjoy that battle if he wasn't fighting at his maximum. SS2 was not his maximum.
I know, I was agreeing with you.
My bad. I didn't get that from what you wrote.
Last edited by ABED on Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
ekrolo2 wrote:Saying Toriyama didn't think of 3 when he wrote Goku vs Vegeta round 2 is all well and good out of universe but in-universe it doesn't make any sense. Goku wants to rip Vegeta a one one quickly so Boo can't catch and there's no reason for him NOT to do this by activating SS3.
In-Universe Explanation:The gap between Goku and Vegeta before the Majin power-up was huge, and Goku thought that he could end the fight quickly. But Vegeta's beyond limit power-up allowed him to fight equally with Goku. The fight had already begun and Goku had lost his chance to become a SS3.
Or, he just wanted to enjoy the fight. Or maybe a mixture of both?
I know this gap thing, and it's totally irrelevant because Goku has SS3 and characters stand like dipshits to let one another power up all the time, I hardly thing Goku activating SS3, especially given it's big burst of power, could've been prevented by Vegeta who'd be too shock by being thoroughly outclassed once more to even try and attack him.
Plus, Goku flat out says "I'm going to end this quickly so Majin Boo won't hatch!" so the tried and true "He wants to enjoy the fight!" excuse doesn't work at the beginning of the battle when he wants to go the pragmatic way for once.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
ekrolo2 wrote:Plus, Goku flat out says "I'm going to end this quickly so Majin Boo won't hatch!" so the tried and true "He wants to enjoy the fight!" excuse doesn't work at the beginning of the battle when he wants to go the pragmatic way for once.
Which is why I go with Toriyama didn't think ahead. When he was writing these scenes, Goku was trying to win as quick as he could. He created Super Saiyan 3 so he could justify fighting Buu, but he created a few inconsistencies.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
ekrolo2 wrote:Plus, Goku flat out says "I'm going to end this quickly so Majin Boo won't hatch!" so the tried and true "He wants to enjoy the fight!" excuse doesn't work at the beginning of the battle when he wants to go the pragmatic way for once.
Which is why I go with Toriyama didn't think ahead. When he was writing these scenes, Goku was trying to win as quick as he could. He created Super Saiyan 3 so he could justify fighting Buu, but he created a few inconsistencies.
That's precisely why I don't like SS3 existing the way it does, it just creates a whole bunch of problems when you try to factor it into earlier events. Toriyama could've just kept SS2 his maximum and had him lose his time on Earth by having a long, extremely tiring fight with Fat Boo where he's barely holding on for dear life.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
ABED wrote:In universe or out of universe is irrelevant when bad writing leads to continuity mistakes. You can't ignore that. And yes, you can disregard statements from characters when their actions aren't consistent with what they say. Why do everyone of you guys keep bringing up "this is in-universe" as if that's a trump card? In-universe means diddly squat if the writing is inconsistent. It's not mere intention, Toriyama's lack of planning lead to logical inconsistencies and character inconsistencies. If a characters actions are at odds with what they say, which do you think holds more weight?
Your point about SS2 is still desperately trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Goku may not have been used to his new form, but he clearly has enough power to defeat Vegeta without much effort using it. I know he didn't use SS3 on Vegeta and it's because Toriyama didn't think of it yet and he did his best to cover for that lack of planning but he couldn't.
There is no in-universe explanation for Goku not using Super Saiyan 3. He never lost his chance to transform and Goku wouldn't enjoy that battle if he wasn't fighting at his maximum. SS2 was not his maximum.
There's no continuity mistakes as Goku provides a reason why he didn't use SSJ3 against Vegeta and people bring "In-Universe" because were discussing the history and elements of it not taking consideration things like "Oh Goten and Trunks turned SSJ so easily?" when you could simply answer "Because Toriyama wanted to" this provides no discussion as you're doing desperately trying to prove your point.
Pardon, but as a matter of fact "bad writing" is a mere point of view, I'm not arguing he could defeat Vegeta by transforming into SSJ3, but he choose to not to as we don't even know he could make in time in defeating Boo alone without his time runs out.
There's a lot of explanations why Goku didn't use SSJ3 you just don't agree with them and that's fine, keep yourself saying it's "bad writing" then.
DBZ Macky wrote:Or, he just wanted to enjoy the fight. Or maybe a mixture of both?
For me he was actually looking foward to defeat Vegeta even with them being equal in power, something like a challenge he made to himself.
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
Noah wrote:Pardon, but as a matter of fact "bad writing" is a mere point of view, I'm not arguing he could defeat Vegeta by transforming into SSJ3, but he choose to not to as we don't even know he could make in time in defeating Boo alone without his time runs out.
There's a lot of explanations why Goku didn't use SSJ3 you just don't agree with them and that's fine, keep yourself saying it's "bad writing" then.
Boo can't hatch unless Goku takes damage from Vegeta harming him. He activates SS2 SPECIFICALLY to make him self more powerful than Vegeta so he can avoid taking said damage.
He isn't keeping the form away to enjoy the fight since he tells Vegeta he'll end this quickly and uses SS2 specifically TO end it quickly. He doesn't give a crap about Vegeta's pride since he's appalled by Vegeta murdering innocent people just to make this whole farce happen.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
ekrolo2 wrote:Boo can't hatch unless Goku takes damage from Vegeta harming him. He activates SS2 SPECIFICALLY to make him self more powerful than Vegeta so he can avoid taking said damage.
He isn't keeping the form away to enjoy the fight since he tells Vegeta he'll end this quickly and uses SS2 specifically TO end it quickly. He doesn't give a crap about Vegeta's pride since he's appalled by Vegeta murdering innocent people just to make this whole farce happen.
Yes? But he didn't expect Vegeta to have the same power as him? He accepted the challenge, Vegeta said "I thought you would end this quickly" and Goku replied: "I will"
he was confident he could take Vegeta by himself with them being equal, he bet his money on it. Oh yes, he didn't give a crap about Vegeta, don't know why he was trying to reasoning with him then, telling that all that "I did because I want to be evil again" was a bunch of crap, Goku knew he could convince Vegeta his ways were not the best, thus providing a reason why he didn't risk himself using SSJ3.
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
ekrolo2 wrote:Boo can't hatch unless Goku takes damage from Vegeta harming him. He activates SS2 SPECIFICALLY to make him self more powerful than Vegeta so he can avoid taking said damage.
He isn't keeping the form away to enjoy the fight since he tells Vegeta he'll end this quickly and uses SS2 specifically TO end it quickly. He doesn't give a crap about Vegeta's pride since he's appalled by Vegeta murdering innocent people just to make this whole farce happen.
Yes? But he didn't expect Vegeta to have the same power as him? He accepted the challenge, Vegeta said "I thought you would end this quickly" and Goku replied: "I will"
he was confident he could take Vegeta by himself with them being equal, he bet his money on it. Oh yes, he didn't give a crap about Vegeta, don't know why he was trying to reasoning with him then, telling that all that "I did because I want to be evil again" was a bunch of crap, Goku knew he could convince Vegeta his ways were not the best, thus providing a reason why he didn't risk himself using SSJ3.
There is no exchange like that in the manga. Goku says he'll end it quickly, both of them go SS2, Goku realizes he can't end it quickly (but can thanks to SS3) and then Vegeta tells him he'll kill him. There's nothing in the manga that at all implies Goku is intentionally holding back because he thinks he can win with just SS2, quite the contrary.
Also, Goku isn't fighting for Vegeta's soul or some such BS, he was gonna use SS2 to curb stomp him! Up until Vegeta gives him the speech, he's just being a butt hurt little Saiyan princeling as usual because someone is stronger than him and that's well into the fight at which point Goku could've realized "Yeah I can't win like this" and used SS3 to win.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
ekrolo2 wrote:There is no exchange like that in the manga. Goku says he'll end it quickly, both of them go SS2, Goku realizes he can't end it quickly (but can thanks to SS3) and then Vegeta tells him he'll kill him. There's nothing in the manga that at all implies Goku is intentionally holding back because he thinks he can win with just SS2, quite the contrary.
Also, Goku isn't fighting for Vegeta's soul or some such BS, he was gonna use SS2 to curb stomp him! Up until Vegeta gives him the speech, he's just being a butt hurt little Saiyan princeling as usual because someone is stronger than him and that's well into the fight at which point Goku could've realized "Yeah I can't win like this" and used SS3 to win.
No, he can't because as stated by the character in the manga, it was a form he wasn't used to yet, that had a time limit to how long he could transform and etc. Well but even in the anime wasn't implied that he was holding back, don't know what you're trying to get to. No, it's not BS, it's just a point of view that provides a reasoning why he didn't use SSJ3 on him, Goku's actions here were important for Vegeta final development in the manga after all.
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
ekrolo2 wrote:There is no exchange like that in the manga. Goku says he'll end it quickly, both of them go SS2, Goku realizes he can't end it quickly (but can thanks to SS3) and then Vegeta tells him he'll kill him. There's nothing in the manga that at all implies Goku is intentionally holding back because he thinks he can win with just SS2, quite the contrary.
Also, Goku isn't fighting for Vegeta's soul or some such BS, he was gonna use SS2 to curb stomp him! Up until Vegeta gives him the speech, he's just being a butt hurt little Saiyan princeling as usual because someone is stronger than him and that's well into the fight at which point Goku could've realized "Yeah I can't win like this" and used SS3 to win.
No, he can't because as stated by the character in the manga, it was a form he wasn't used to yet, that had a time limit to how long he could transform and etc. Well but even in the anime wasn't implied that he was holding back, don't know what you're trying to get to. No, it's not BS, it's just a point of view that provides a reasoning why he didn't use SSJ3 on him, Goku's actions here were important for Vegeta final development in the manga after all.
An important development that hinges on a pointless contrivance. Toriyama didn't need to give Goku a new form to have him hold off Fat Boo that retroactively breaks the story to pieces whichever way you take it.
There is no good reason for him not to use SS3. He's trying to be pragmatic, he doesn't care about Vegeta's feelings and he knows that even with his time devoured, it'll be simple for him to deal with Dabura and Vegeta in a matter of minutes.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
ekrolo2 wrote:An important development that hinges on a pointless contrivance. Toriyama didn't need to give Goku a new form to have him hold off Fat Boo that retroactively breaks the story to pieces whichever way you take it.
There is no good reason for him not to use SS3. He's trying to be pragmatic, he doesn't care about Vegeta's feelings and he knows that even with his time devoured, it'll be simple for him to deal with Dabura and Vegeta in a matter of minutes.
Well, I agree with you that things would be easier to understand if Goku didn't had SSJ3, but I don't see the way you guys do, being "bad writing" or stuff. You can say Goku didn't care for Vegeta's feelings or he was being manipulative, either way his argument of why they should fuse, proves that Goku understand that Vegeta do cares about his family and even though you keep saying he could SSJ3, we don't know he could make in time to defeat Majin Boo either
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
ekrolo2 wrote:An important development that hinges on a pointless contrivance. Toriyama didn't need to give Goku a new form to have him hold off Fat Boo that retroactively breaks the story to pieces whichever way you take it.
There is no good reason for him not to use SS3. He's trying to be pragmatic, he doesn't care about Vegeta's feelings and he knows that even with his time devoured, it'll be simple for him to deal with Dabura and Vegeta in a matter of minutes.
Well, I agree with you that things would be easier to understand if Goku didn't had SSJ3, but I don't see the way you guys do, being "bad writing" or stuff. You can say Goku didn't care for Vegeta's feelings or he was being manipulative, either way his argument of why they should fuse, proves that Goku understand that Vegeta do cares about his family and even though you keep saying he could SSJ3, we don't know he could make in time to defeat Majin Boo either
What do you mean with Majin Boo? Boo can't hatch if Goku stomps Vegeta, unless you're referring to their actual manga fight. Even there I'm REALLY dubious about Goku not being able to do it since the fight is clearly well on his side. It's certainly not as even as the Kid Boo fight where you can say "Yeah, it was too even for him to end it quickly".
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
ekrolo2 wrote:What do you mean with Majin Boo? Boo can't hatch if Goku stomps Vegeta, unless you're referring to their actual manga fight. Even there I'm REALLY dubious about Goku not being able to do it since the fight is clearly well on his side. It's certainly not as even as the Kid Boo fight where you can say "Yeah, it was too even for him to end it quickly".
Yes, my whole point is about Goku in some point of the fight actually going SSJ3 not in the start which I think it wouldn't even make sense either.
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
There's no continuity mistakes as Goku provides a reason why he didn't use SSJ3 against Vegeta and people bring "In-Universe" because were discussing the history and elements of it not taking consideration things like "Oh Goten and Trunks turned SSJ so easily?" when you could simply answer "Because Toriyama wanted to" this provides no discussion as you're doing desperately trying to prove your point.
Pardon, but as a matter of fact "bad writing" is a mere point of view, I'm not arguing he could defeat Vegeta by transforming into SSJ3, but he choose to not to as we don't even know he could make in time in defeating Boo alone without his time runs out.
There's a lot of explanations why Goku didn't use SSJ3 you just don't agree with them and that's fine, keep yourself saying it's "bad writing" then.
There is a continuity error. Goku did give a reason, but it's a flimsy reason. Toriyama tried his best to come up with something to justify it, but it doesn't make any sense for his character to give a damn about Vegeta's feelings and it's not the thrill of the fight seeing as how Vegeta isn't a challenge to him if he has Super Saiyan 3. If you have a character acting out of character, that's objectively bad writing. There are no explanations for why he didn't go SS3, but none of them cut the mustard.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
ABED wrote:There is a continuity error. Goku did give a reason, but it's a flimsy reason. Toriyama tried his best to come up with something to justify it, but it doesn't make any sense for his character to give a damn about Vegeta's feelings and it's not the thrill of the fight seeing as how Vegeta isn't a challenge to him if he has Super Saiyan 3. If you have a character acting out of character, that's objectively bad writing. There are no explanations for why he didn't go SS3, but none of them cut the mustard.
Not quite, I actually believe it makes sense Goku trying to reason with Vegeta instead of just one-shot him and his argument to convince him they should fuse is a proof of that. I don't think was bad writing even if you say his reason was "flimsy" I think we should probably agree to disagree as we're going in circles here.
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
