How strong is Base Goku?

[Saturnine]

I still want to know how people proposing the Two Base theory think it works for Vegeta. He trained to attain SSG all on his own and we're supposed to pretend that Vegeta's regular base isn't leagues above Goku's?

Goku said that Vegeta obtained the power of SSG through training, so he probably unlocked the base with SSG state through training like Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, etc.

This is only in the anime continuity though, in the movie & manga continuities, Vegeta became a Super Saiyan God & absorbed its power just like Goku did.

Actually in the manga continuity neither Goku nor Vegeta absorbed the SSj God power, because there is SSj God as a separate form.

[Tectorman]

To borrow from this week's episode, it'd be like saying that because Krillin now has his new improved Taiyoken that he no longer has any idea how to do the original version. The original version may now be less effective so he doesn't bother to use it, but "not" does not equate to "can't".

Krillin also likely gradually built his way up to Taiyoken x100 by developing it in increments. If Goku's so impressed by Vegeta getting to SSJG on his own, then I don't see how Vegeta would just suddenly jump from Base to God Base without the original Base drastically rising to get him there (in a way that Goku's obviously didn't) due to the fact that it was incurred by training. Otherwise it's literally just the ritual but without the need of other participants, in which case...well, I guess? Is that what people are actually saying?

Essentially, yes. Same result, but where Goku got there via a shortcut (the ritual), Vegeta obtained SbG under Whis's tutelage (or whichever method we're talking about). Vegeta did not need help from anyone besides Whis, but at the cost of taking longer.

I still want to know how people proposing the Two Base theory think it works for Vegeta. He trained to attain SSG all on his own and we're supposed to pretend that Vegeta's regular base isn't leagues above Goku's?

Goku said that Vegeta obtained the power of SSG through training, so he probably unlocked the base with SSG state through training like Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, etc.

This is only in the anime continuity though, in the movie & manga continuities, Vegeta became a Super Saiyan God & absorbed its power just like Goku did.

Actually in the manga continuity neither Goku nor Vegeta absorbed the SSj God power, because there is SSj God as a separate form.

Yep. In the manga, Goku's keeping of the SSJG power is not represented by him incorporating that power into any of his other forms, it remains its own separate transformation, its retention is first represented by the new SSB, until Goku reveals he still has it in his fight with Hit. In the manga, Hit does power up, nor is there a Copy-Vegeta arc. It's one continuity where I don't feel a need for a two-base theory to keep everything coherent.

Goku Black being even with a SSJ in Base, his own SSJ being outclassed by a SSB, but then his SSR outclassing by not outright vaporizing SSB Vegeta is really the only hiccup, but given that he's drawing the benefit of Zenkais long, long, long after the point where Goku's body should have stopped doing so, I just chalk that up as something exclusive and unique to a deity in a Saiyan body.

[ChiefWamsutta]

To borrow from this week's episode, it'd be like saying that because Krillin now has his new improved Taiyoken that he no longer has any idea how to do the original version. The original version may now be less effective so he doesn't bother to use it, but "not" does not equate to "can't".

Krillin also likely gradually built his way up to Taiyoken x100 by developing it in increments. If Goku's so impressed by Vegeta getting to SSJG on his own, then I don't see how Vegeta would just suddenly jump from Base to God Base without the original Base drastically rising to get him there (in a way that Goku's obviously didn't) due to the fact that it was incurred by training. Otherwise it's literally just the ritual but without the need of other participants, in which case...well, I guess? Is that what people are actually saying?

Essentially, yes. Same result, but where Goku got there via a shortcut (the ritual), Vegeta obtained SbG under Whis's tutelage (or whichever method we're talking about). Vegeta did not need help from anyone besides Whis, but at the cost of taking longer.

Goku said that Vegeta obtained the power of SSG through training, so he probably unlocked the base with SSG state through training like Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, etc.

This is only in the anime continuity though, in the movie & manga continuities, Vegeta became a Super Saiyan God & absorbed its power just like Goku did.

Actually in the manga continuity neither Goku nor Vegeta absorbed the SSj God power, because there is SSj God as a separate form.

Yep. In the manga, Goku's keeping of the SSJG power is not represented by him incorporating that power into any of his other forms, it remains its own separate transformation, its retention is first represented by the new SSB, until Goku reveals he still has it in his fight with Hit. In the manga, Hit does power up, nor is there a Copy-Vegeta arc. It's one continuity where I don't feel a need for a two-base theory to keep everything coherent.

Goku Black being even with a SSJ in Base, his own SSJ being outclassed by a SSB, but then his SSR outclassing by not outright vaporizing SSB Vegeta is really the only hiccup, but given that he's drawing the benefit of Zenkais long, long, long after the point where Goku's body should have stopped doing so, I just chalk that up as something exclusive and unique to a deity in a Saiyan body.

After viewing this again, I think there could be a way this fits into the Two-Base Theory.

[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]

I think many people assume that these statements meant that Vegeta became a Saiyan Beyond God through training with Whis. Then Goku arrived to train and they both unlocked SSBlue through Ki Control.

Why couldn't it be that Vegeta unlocked SSGod and he absorbed it into his Base form? If we say that he trained very hard to get to SSGod level, then Vegeta shouldn't have a strong Base and a weak Base. But if he absorbed the SSGod power into Base like Goku did, then this could be his Saiyan Beyond God and he and Goku supress it to a weak Base.

The wording in these images can be interpreted to mean that Vegeta achieved SSGod on his own without anyone to perform the ritual and he then absorbed it to become an SBG. This would allow consistency with the Two-Base Theory.

[Saturnine]

There are also many things that hint that SSj is no longer 50x. A 8-10x increase seems more reasonable. If not by the Buu saga, then at least in Super. There is only circumstantial evidence for that though, so I supposed 50x works too. Kinda doesn't for Gotenks though - when Toriyama wrote post RoSaT Gotenks as stronger in base than he previously was in SSj, I'm almost certain he wasn't thinking of an over 50x difference, lol

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

First time here on Kanzenshuu!

And let me just say......... I find the confusion to be quite, well, CONFUSING!

Let's break it down, shall we?

===

In the BoG Arc, Goku absorbed the power of SSG and made it his own, not losing any power. Afterwards, he went to Beerus's planet to train under Whis, whom had trained Vegeta for 6 months to catch up to Goku's current level after absorbing the power of SSG. They both got a lot stronger, especially after learning how to not let their Ki leak out in Whis's staff dimension.

Come RoF, Goku and Vegeta are a match for Freeza's true form after he trained for 4 months to defeat Goku, whom he heard had defeated Majin Buu. His first form could blow holes in SS Gohan, whose base form was stronger than Piccolo. They even managed to surpass the SSG wall by way of SSB, a Super Saiyan who is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. After these events comes the Universe 6/7 Tournament Arc. Goku and Vegeta train for several more months under Whis's tutelage, as well as 3 years in the Room of Spirit & Time, gaining minimal but noticeable gains to their overall strength.

Both train again for an indeterminate period after the tournament, becoming slightly stronger. Afterwards, no major gains are noted in their base forms.

===

What does this all mean? Well, note that there is never once a mention of their power dropping. Instead, constant mention has been made of their power increasing, specifically in base form. Note also that they only surpassed SSG by becoming SSB. Now, as for the inconsistencies such as Goku going toe-to-toe with Hit, a Vegeta who was stronger than SS3 Gotenks, and Gohan in base form, we can rationalize these away.

Gohan has been training with Piccolo ever since Freeza was revived and came to Earth. We see that he's sweaty and tuckered out when he flies up with Piccolo to say goodbye to Future Trunks as he's about to leave the present timeline with Mai, implying he's been training his ass off earlier that day. Thus, he eventually becomes strong enough to actually spar with post-training/god Goku, which isn't farfetched given his massive potential, as well as Future Trunks demonstrating similar gains.

As for Hit, the implication of the scene is that Goku knew how to counter Hit's Time-Skip, and didn't want to use up stamina fighting him as a SS/SSB until he was sure he could counter the Time-Skip. Hit was taken off-guard by Goku being able to counter him, and thus the scene.

As for SS3 Gotenks, Frost, Cabba, etc., people are unsure of what to make of it all. Let's reexamine the series again. Goku lost no power when he lost the SSG form, but yet was stated to only surpass the form by way of SSB. So what gives? Well, SSG's power became his own, which means he lost it. But also didn't, because SSB is how he accesses it. So......what does this mean? It means that Goku has access to SSG's power, gaining some of it as a permanent boost, but doesn't surpass it normally. The same goes for Vegeta, whose base form was trained by Whis to unfathomable levels. His teachings on Ki control are what allow them to keep ALL of SSG's power in.

But that didn't answer the inquiry yet. Despite Vegeta taking SS3 Gotenks's hits, he also couldn't completely one-shot him. Two noted gains were made from the events of RoF, so let's make some assumptions. Perhaps Freeza' after training to become so powerful, has very minimal differences between his First and Final forms. Thus, whilst above SS Gohan, he's not MASSIVELY so. I theorize that Goku and Vegeta were at SS3 Gotenks's level in that arc, and reached Ultimate Gohan level as of the Potaufeu Arc.

This places them squarely within the Buu Saga's upper tier range, without resorting to Two-Base Theory (which just seems nonsensical at this point in the series) or Everyone-Is-At-SSG Theory.

[Tectorman]

There are also many things that hint that SSj is no longer 50x. A 8-10x increase seems more reasonable. If not by the Buu saga, then at least in Super. There is only circumstantial evidence for that though, so I supposed 50x works too. Kinda doesn't for Gotenks though - when Toriyama wrote post RoSaT Gotenks as stronger in base than he previously was in SSj, I'm almost certain he wasn't thinking of an over 50x difference, lol

Eh, I think SSJ2 being several dozens of times stronger as per the Zamasu arc seems like as good a hint as any that the old multipliers are still in place.

As for Gotenks, that's off-topic for this thread, so I posted my response in the other one.

First time here on Kanzenshuu!

And let me just say......... I find the confusion to be quite, well, CONFUSING!

Let's break it down, shall we?

===

In the BoG Arc, Goku absorbed the power of SSG and made it his own, not losing any power. Afterwards, he went to Beerus's planet to train under Whis, whom had trained Vegeta for 6 months to catch up to Goku's current level after absorbing the power of SSG. They both got a lot stronger, especially after learning how to not let their Ki leak out in Whis's staff dimension.

Come RoF, Goku and Vegeta are a match for Freeza's true form after he trained for 4 months to defeat Goku, whom he heard had defeated Majin Buu. His first form could blow holes in SS Gohan, whose base form was stronger than Piccolo. They even managed to surpass the SSG wall by way of SSB, a Super Saiyan who is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. After these events comes the Universe 6/7 Tournament Arc. Goku and Vegeta train for several more months under Whis's tutelage, as well as 3 years in the Room of Spirit & Time, gaining minimal but noticeable gains to their overall strength.

Both train again for an indeterminate period after the tournament, becoming slightly stronger. Afterwards, no major gains are noted in their base forms.

===

What does this all mean? Well, note that there is never once a mention of their power dropping. Instead, constant mention has been made of their power increasing, specifically in base form. Note also that they only surpassed SSG by becoming SSB.

Source on the bolded (what I bolded on the bottom, not what you had originally bolded)? Because, as you say, it's a constant increase for them both, and he was explicitly confirmed to not have lost any power when he went from SSJG to SSBG during his fight with Beerus. Ergo, the only logical conclusion from that must be that Goku did surpass SSJG with SSBG after he made his first appreciable gain during his and Vegeta's training with Whis. Now, yes, he surpassed SSJG MORE with SSB than anything else and it may even be true that, for all their marginal increases since, their SBG states haven't actually exceeded the original SSJG, but if he had some unidentified form of SSJ explicitly confirmed to be even with SSJG, and he's done nothing but get better, then he MUST have surpassed SSJG with that form of SSJ, at least. And since that's confirmed and in keeping with the movie's paradigm of SBG and SSBG, might as well call it that.

Now, as for the inconsistencies such as Goku going toe-to-toe with Hit, a Vegeta who was stronger than SS3 Gotenks, and Gohan in base form, we can rationalize these away.

Gohan has been training with Piccolo ever since Freeza was revived and came to Earth. We see that he's sweaty and tuckered out when he flies up with Piccolo to say goodbye to Future Trunks as he's about to leave the present timeline with Mai, implying he's been training his ass off earlier that day. Thus, he eventually becomes strong enough to actually spar with post-training/god Goku, which isn't farfetched given his massive potential, as well as Future Trunks demonstrating similar gains.

As for Hit, the implication of the scene is that Goku knew how to counter Hit's Time-Skip, and didn't want to use up stamina fighting him as a SS/SSB until he was sure he could counter the Time-Skip. Hit was taken off-guard by Goku being able to counter him, and thus the scene.

I can buy this to a point. After all, Sorbet was an absolute weakling who was able to fell a SSB with a sneak attack, so making the argument that Goku was bridging the massive gap between him and a Hit that was at SSB levels of strength isn't implausible. Except, when has a character been shown to fall for that sort of trickery on a consistent, continual basis? Hit, who is supposed to be this experienced master assassin whom Goku can only match because the tournament hampers his best moves, falling for this for one, maybe two attacks in a row makes sense, but Goku fought him in something that looks like Base for a while. At some point, "two-base" becomes more plausible than continually over-estimating Hit's competence as a fighter.

As for SS3 Gotenks, Frost, Cabba, etc., people are unsure of what to make of it all. Let's reexamine the series again. Goku lost no power when he lost the SSG form, but yet was stated to only surpass the form by way of SSB. So what gives? Well, SSG's power became his own, which means he lost it. But also didn't, because SSB is how he accesses it. So......what does this mean? It means that Goku has access to SSG's power, gaining some of it as a permanent boost, but doesn't surpass it normally. The same goes for Vegeta, whose base form was trained by Whis to unfathomable levels. His teachings on Ki control are what allow them to keep ALL of SSG's power in.

But that didn't answer the inquiry yet. Despite Vegeta taking SS3 Gotenks's hits, he also couldn't completely one-shot him. Two noted gains were made from the events of RoF, so let's make some assumptions. Perhaps Freeza' after training to become so powerful, has very minimal differences between his First and Final forms. Thus, whilst above SS Gohan, he's not MASSIVELY so. I theorize that Goku and Vegeta were at SS3 Gotenks's level in that arc, and reached Ultimate Gohan level as of the Potaufeu Arc.

This places them squarely within the Buu Saga's upper tier range, without resorting to Two-Base Theory (which just seems nonsensical at this point in the series) or Everyone-Is-At-SSG Theory.

Again, source on the bolded? Because again, we know his SSBG did get stronger.

Also, one other thing that should be considered. It's slightly off-topic, so I'm spoilering it, but it should demonstrate how two bases actually helps keep the power levels on track.

[spoiler]As you say, he did surpass SSJG with SSB. Even if we disagree with what all else he surpassed SSJG, he is stronger with that form at least. From Beerus's greater excitement facing him than Vegeta (who pushed Beerus into using 10% of his power), we know SSJG must be greater than Beerus's 10% even if not the 60% it was in the movie.

Kaioken x10 cranks that number to above Beerus (how can it not?), but we know that Goku isn't supposed to be above him yet. How to reconcile the two? Well, it becomes a heck of a lot easier with two bases and the assumption that the Kaioken was actually only operating on the lesser base.

Not the numbers I actually go with, but just to illustrate:

Goku Saiyan 1
SSJ 50
SSJ2 100
SSJ3 400
SbG 1001 (1000 God-tier ki, 1 normal ki)
SSB 1050 (1000 godly ki, 50 normal ki)
SSBKK 1100 (Kaioken affects the normal ki but cannot touch the godly ki)
SSBKKx10 1500 (the 1000 is unaffected, the 50 has become 500)

What does this allow?

* Goku to be even with Hit and Hit to be even with SSB.
* Hit to even withstand SSBKKx10 when, again, his durability and strength have not increased again at all (furthermore, any leeway he could possibly have had for being surprised as long since been exhausted by the point when Goku breaks out the Kaioken)
* Goku's SSB to be above his SSJG (which was above 10% Beerus), while his SSBKKx10 still hadn't surpassed Beerus
* Vegeta to not be completely eclipsed yet (and given that Kaioken wasn't even introduced in the manga, I feel that's actually important)

What would that require?

* Kaioken to operate in the manner I describe (a hurdle, but it does make the math work)
* Hit sensed Goku's power going up and he described it as multiplying (solution: he was able to sense Goku's ki even through the ki-masking property of SSB, but only to the point of sensing what was happening to Goku's normal ki; i.e., he sensed the 50 go to 500, but missed the 1000)
* Vegeta, who would have sensed all of Goku's ki, to not think it weird that this technique isn't even giving Goku a full x2 (solution: who says Vegeta knows precisely how the Kaioken works? He had never before witnessed its use while using a Scouter or being able to sense energy, and we know he didn't gauge it right after the Saiyan arc)

There you go. SSB above SSJG above Rageta approximate to 10% Beerus, yet SSBKKx10 still below 100% Beerus (one of the more controversial hangups that has led to speculation of SSB still being below Rageta or the abandonment of the 6-10-15, which still runs afoul of the 10% comment) resolved via a second base.[/spoiler]

The only reason the two base theory seems nonsensical at this point is because the SBG was a thing in the earlier arcs which were following the movies but now the out-of-universe direction is to keep the lesser transformations in the story. This has been done without the provision of an explanation as to why Goku and Vegeta went back to the lesser forms rather than simply fighting with SBG.

But if we can speculate about Frieza's training and the new difference between his first and final forms and if we can rationalize Goku's fight with Hit, and Vegeta versus SSJ3 Gotenks, then we can do the same regarding the apparent abandonment of SBG. And if all we're really missing is a stated reason why, and if we were comfortable creating those rationalizations above, then we can do the same here and it's no more nonsense here than there.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I try to work with what's said and implied in the series.

For example, the implication currently and with the narration and character dialogue indicates that SSB is how Goku and Vegeta surpassed SSG, such as the narrator and Z-Warriors commenting on the fact when Goku first transformed into it against Freeza.

I don't buy into Two-Base Theory because it needlessly complicates the matters of how strong individual characters are, as well as misses certain contextual cues. As well, I constantly see the notion that Cabba, Frost, etc., all being above the likes of SS3 Gotenks is ridiculous by people around here, and I ask....... Why?

I agree that perhaps the original intention was that Goku and Vegeta were supposed to be at SSG level normally, but the series makes it unclear enough to place them lower so that the powerscaling inconsistencies aren't as bad. Unlike Two-Base Theory, Strong-Base Theory has multiple inferred instances of backing and in-universe comments/explanation, and doesn't require as much guess work and justification as Two-Base Theory. For example, continual mention has been made since RoF that Goku and Vegeta have only continued to grow in power after they both became strong enough to take on a Freeza that made it his goal of surpassing a Goku that had defeated Majin Buu.

As well, people need to understand that the anime is a very broad-strokes series in terms of power rankings and how concepts are utilized. What people think were hard rules that have been clearly defined in the past need to forget that notion entirely, and rely solely on the series' own definitions of what does and doesn't work. As well, you guys need to look into contextual clues and dialogue more closely, because you over-analyze such details and yet also under-analyze them at the same time.

What's especially egregious to me is people thinking that SSB is the result of Saiyan Beyond God being a thing. It's really not. In the RoF Arc, Goku has a Super Saiyan aura around him before turning SSB. As well, Vegeta goes from SS to SSB in the Universe 6/7 Tournament Arc. In the Universal Survival Arc, Goku goes from SS to SSB in the Zen Exhibition Match AND the opening, implying that the form is some kind of variation on SS with SSG's power, rather than a god-base Saiyan going SS. Not only that, but the intro to this arc has Goku going from SSB back to base and fighting Jiren, which could mean the introduction of Two-Base Theory..........AFTER NOT BEING A THING UNTIL NOW

The events of BoG, RoF, and the Potaufeu Arc can't simply be ignored, and the same goes for the accomplishments of Goku and Vegeta under Whis's tutelage. I get that people THINK Two-Base Theory solves powerscaling, but the issue is that it de-emphasizes the importance of concepts like martial arts skill and strategy that the series has been propping up the importance of since the tournament between Universe 6 and 7.

I'm just trying to keep things consistent without coming up with huge leaps in logic that have yet to truly be described in-universe.

[DBZ Macky]

I constantly see the notion that Cabba, Frost, etc., all being above the likes of SS3 Gotenks is ridiculous by people around here, and I ask....... Why?

It's really because it's very odd to me that these guys are this strong without any explanation. At all. I'll try to bring up a few points as I can think as to why Super's power scale is ridiculous and why it really isn't unjustified if someone has an avatar with Super's logo in the toilet.

This is why I think Cabba, Piccolo, etc. aren't anywhere near as strong as how strong Goku and Vegeta were against RoF Freeza.
1. Gohan isn't "stronger than ever". He can't even go Super Saiyan 2 for now. Nothing implies that he can stack his "Ultimate" power-up with SS either.
2. After learning that Cabba can't even go Super Saiyan, Vegeta says that a "weakling" like him shouldn't even have participated in the tournament.
3. Piccolo trained in the RoSaT and then for 7 years, yet was still weaker than SS Gohan. Training with a rusty Gohan for a few days/weeks shouldn't be enough to let him be able to fight with God-tier opponents.
4. I haven't cross-checked this, but I recall Frost claiming that he was weak or something along those lines.

I could probably think of a lot more. Anyways, I'm liking that we at least have a new topic of discussion instead of the usual "Which form did Gohan use against Dabra" or "Pure Boo vs Evil Boo" stuff. I'd love to hear everyone's opinion on the power scale, even if they aren't usually interested in these kinds of things. I'd especially like to hear VegettoEX, Herms, Kaboom's opinions, since they always manage to bring up good points and I end up almost always agreeing with what they have to say

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I tend to analyze the anime in a vacuum, only using previous material to establish the baseline the series started off with, then going on from there.

I think you guys should to. Don't use the rules from previous material for anything beyond a baseline.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

It's really because it's very odd to me that these guys are this strong without any explanation. At all. I'll try to bring up a few points as I can think as to why Super's power scale is ridiculous and why it really isn't unjustified if someone has an avatar with Super's logo in the toilet.

Yes there's an explanation, they're from a different universe. The "logic" and "rules" of Universe 7 have no reasons to be the same in Universe 6.

[Tectorman]

It's really because it's very odd to me that these guys are this strong without any explanation. At all. I'll try to bring up a few points as I can think as to why Super's power scale is ridiculous and why it really isn't unjustified if someone has an avatar with Super's logo in the toilet.

Yes there's an explanation, they're from a different universe. The "logic" and "rules" of Universe 7 have no reasons to be the same in Universe 6.

Agreed on that point. Again, for me, the two-base theory had zilch to do with somehow not wanting the U6 characters to be strong.

[DBZ Macky]

"They're from a different Universe" is the worst explanation like ever. Sure, it might make it somewhat easier to digest the facts if it turns out that Cabba and co. really are so strong but it sure as hell ain't an "explanation".

[ChiefWamsutta]

Okay, so after some more thinking about all of this here is my idea.


Saiyans have four main forms:



*The asterisk is to represent that there are extensions to the Super Saiyan form (Grade 2, Grade 3, Full Power, SS2, SS3, etc.) that the Z Fighters created.



Saiyans have a Base form and a legendary Super Saiyan form. The red-haired form is the god version of the Base form. The blue-haired form is the god version of the Super Saiyan form. All Saiyans have a Base form, and some can unlock the Super Saiyan form. The next huge leap is the god versions of the forms. SSGod is temporary by nature, which is its down-side.



When Goku uses the ritual, he focuses his power via Super Saiyan, so when he achieves SSG it is almost a form stacked on top of SS. Thus, when he drops out of God, the power hasn't fully merged yet until it merges with his Base. I think of it as like attracted like.



So this is what it would look like at the end of Battle of Gods arc. There is a greater benefit to having this God Merged Base.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

"They're from a different Universe" is the worst explanation like ever. Sure, it might make it somewhat easier to digest the facts if it turns out that Cabba and co. really are so strong but it sure as hell ain't an "explanation".

Could you elaborate why exactly this is not an "explanation"? Or why this is not a valid one?

[Lord Beerus]

At this point I'd say Goku in his base form is on the very high end of SSJ3 tier.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

At this point I'd say Goku in his base form is on the very high end of SSJ3 tier.

Specifically Gotenks SS3

But seriously, I think placing him at Ultimate Gohan -> Base Vegito levels is the most accurate. That way, the stronger cast members can give him a good relatively even spar in more straight-up fights, and possessing the power of a god with SSB isn't diminished in value.

[Hitiro]

Okay, so after some more thinking about all of this here is my idea.


Saiyans have four main forms:

*The asterisk is to represent that there are extensions to the Super Saiyan form (Grade 2, Grade 3, Full Power, SS2, SS3, etc.) that the Z Fighters created.

Saiyans have a Base form and a legendary Super Saiyan form. The red-haired form is the god version of the Base form. The blue-haired form is the god version of the Super Saiyan form. All Saiyans have a Base form, and some can unlock the Super Saiyan form. The next huge leap is the god versions of the forms. SSGod is temporary by nature, which is its down-side.

When Goku uses the ritual, he focuses his power via Super Saiyan, so when he achieves SSG it is almost a form stacked on top of SS. Thus, when he drops out of God, the power hasn't fully merged yet until it merges with his Base. I think of it as like attracted like.

So this is what it would look like at the end of Battle of Gods arc. There is a greater benefit to having this God Merged Base.

I'm not sure they have a base "God Ki" state to be honest. Goku is able to keep up with Freeza's power increase and nobody seems surprised by that when they fought. It is stated that you can't sense God Ki unless you have a certain level of Ki and learn to sense Ki the new way. Goku and Vegeta eventually learn to do this. But in FnF it was noted they couldn't sense Goku's Ki anymore when he turned SSJB. If we're saying that he is accessing God Ki on top of his regular Ki in his base form then wouldn't people be surprised at how he could fight Freeza in his base form? I think somebody would have mentioned that Goku seems to be much weaker than Freeza. I would also think that they would have conveyed the info so that we could understand Goku using it in his base form.

Also, Beerus said that Goku made the God Ki his own when they had thought. That could simply mean he converted it into regular Ki that he can use.

Scenario 1:
Base Goku w/ God Ki: 100 million BP(In BoG Beerus said that Goku was too weak in base to beat Freeza, Goku did train but I don't think that made that much difference to his Battle Power) + ??? God Ki BP
Freeza: 100 billion BP

Z-Fighters: "How is Goku beating Freeza with just 100 million BP? Freeza is massively stronger than him!"
Whis, Beerus + Vegeta: "He is using God Ki along with his regular Ki to bridge the gap."

Scenario 2:
Base Goku w/ Converted God Ki into Regular Ki: 125 billion BP

A side-note: It seems like in Dragon Ball Super, Goku is going to get a Super Base form kind of like Gohan. When he fought Toppo he said "Now you're going to see what happens when I surpass my limit." And from the Super Opening, using SSJB with KK to the very limit seems to be a trigger which is what he was doing against Toppo. In the new ending it also seems to clearly show it there too. A "steaming" Base Goku. I'm going to call it Goku Gear Second.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I certainly wouldn't be opposed to Goku getting an ACTUAL second base form, if only to disprove Two-Base Theory as it currently is.

Something about that theory just makes my skin crawl and makes me grit my teeth whilst shaking my head in confusion. I can't pinpoint what exactly it is, though.

[Bullza]

Going by Episode 75 was it? Goku andd Gohan are on a similar level.

Going by the latest episode and some of things we've seen the current Gohan is not as strong as he was as Ultimate Gohan in the Buu saga. He might also not be that level even as a Super Saiyan so it would make Base Goku and Gohan possibly under 1/50th of Ultimate Gohan.

Base Goku fought toe to toe with Slim Buu and said he was faster than before so Base Goku should also be faster than Fat Buu so also more powerful than him too.

So yeah I'd say the closest comparison to any character from DBZ would be Fat Buu. Definitely not close to Ultimate Gohan.

[pacz360]

Going by Episode 75 was it? Goku andd Gohan are on a similar level.

Going by the latest episode and some of things we've seen the current Gohan is not as strong as he was as Ultimate Gohan in the Buu saga. He might also not be that level even as a Super Saiyan so it would make Base Goku and Gohan possibly under 1/50th of Ultimate Gohan.

Base Goku fought toe to toe with Slim Buu and said he was faster than before so Base Goku should also be faster than Fat Buu so also more powerful than him too.

So yeah I'd say the closest comparison to any character from DBZ would be Fat Buu. Definitely not close to Ultimate Gohan.

No goku stronger than ssj3 gotenks as evident with copy vegeta
Nothing implies base goku being only fat buu level in base
Not to mention holding his own against a fired up beerus
No one in the buu saga can do that.