Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Simere]

The SSBKK complaint is tiresome. There was never a reason to cling to the 90% failure line, because we know from DBZ he can train to improve his effectiveness with it, and he said as much in Super as well. He doesn't need to say he's gotten better at using it, the fact that he is using it says it all.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Saying 17 is around ssj2 or three is ridiculous
Goku stated from his own mouth he didn't even intend to use blue on him meaning 17 is definitely in the god tier realm of power.

Let's try not to jump to conclusions, since I know how much powerscalers like to do that.

===

Goku could match a suppressed 17 with SS, and didn't intend on bringing out SSB but did anyways because 17 was stronger than he thought, and both were still suppressed after the fight ended.

Now this COULD mean that he's reached god tier realms of power, OR he's above SS Goku/Vegeta but below their god forms, and the god form was merely the measuring stick used at that exact moment.

Goku turned SSB fluidly from SS, which makes sense since the former is a variation of the latter. It's possible that it's easier to go from SS to SSB than to go from SS to SS2 as a method of sizing up 17, and if Goku had gone SS2 or SS3, I speculate that he'd have been equal to 17's full power. It's still impressive and a bit of a leap in logic, but it helps curb the power escalation like I've been doing by putting base Goku/Vegeta at Ultimate Gohan level from the Buu Saga.

[pacz360]

Saying 17 is around ssj2 or three is ridiculous
Goku stated from his own mouth he didn't even intend to use blue on him meaning 17 is definitely in the god tier realm of power.

Let's try not to jump to conclusions, since I know how much powerscalers like to do that.

===

Goku could match a suppressed 17 with SS, and didn't intend on bringing out SSB but did anyways because 17 was stronger than he thought, and both were still suppressed after the fight ended.

Now this COULD mean that he's reached god tier realms of power, OR he's above SS Goku/Vegeta but below their god forms, and the god form was merely the measuring stick used at that exact moment.

Goku turned SSB fluidly from SS, which makes sense since the former is a variation of the latter. It's possible that it's easier to go from SS to SSB than to go from SS to SS2 as a method of sizing up 17, and if Goku had gone SS2 or SS3, I speculate that he'd have been equal to 17's full power. It's still impressive and a bit of a leap in logic, but it helps curb the power escalation like I've been doing by putting base Goku/Vegeta at Ultimate Gohan level from the Buu Saga.

Goku busting out ssjb where he didn't even intend to use it means he's definitely around the god tier realm of power whether Ssjg or blue the point is 17 In the god tier power
Here.

[TheMikado]

I think the issue people have with SSBxKK is its supposed to be a 90% chance of destroying his body and Goku has basically used it in every major arc since he revealed he has it. At no point does he say "I figured out how to use this". He just keeps doing it and in two of the circumstances they were tournaments, one was a preliminary so if he was wrecked he would be completely screwed for the tournament. The other was the debut where he says the risk then cranks it to X10 and then after all that build and risk as if his life depends on it he just gives up because he can't have a good fight. It's kinda weird to be honest. But for some reason when Merged Zamasu is threatening his life he gets a rage boost but can't take it to x10 now when his life is endanger by the same guys he just a rage boost over for killing his family.

Ki-based fighting is weird like that, as are Saiyans themselves.

That's not an acceptable hand wave answer at all. Yes the audience is aware Saiyans are unique but what specific context would they have for knowing this is related specifically to being a saiyan?? Or is that just head canon and we're making up reasons now.

[HybridSaiyan]

Saying 17 is around ssj2 or three is ridiculous
Goku stated from his own mouth he didn't even intend to use blue on him meaning 17 is definitely in the god tier realm of power.

Who Isn't?

[TheMikado]

The SSBKK complaint is tiresome. There was never a reason to cling to the 90% failure line, because we know from DBZ he can train to improve his effectiveness with it, and he said as much in Super as well. He doesn't need to say he's gotten better at using it, the fact that he is using it says it all.

Except when he used it his actual effectiveness improved over time. He got the ability at king kais, pushed it to x4 against Vegeta and further against Frieza as he grew stronger. He's literally decreased his multiplier as time has gone one.

[pacz360]

Saying 17 is around ssj2 or three is ridiculous
Goku stated from his own mouth he didn't even intend to use blue on him meaning 17 is definitely in the god tier realm of power.

Who Isn't?

Accept a god tier piccolo,buu and gohan and maybe 18 if your lucky in the future cause super is gonna bring them the upgrades.

[HybridSaiyan]

Saying 17 is around ssj2 or three is ridiculous
Goku stated from his own mouth he didn't even intend to use blue on him meaning 17 is definitely in the god tier realm of power.

Who Isn't?

Accept a god tier piccolo,buu and gohan and maybe 18 if your lucky in the future cause super is gonna bring them the upgrades.

But I also wanted god tier Roshi and Yamcha D:

[YajirobiTheGreat]

17 could have taken out Buu but chose not to do anything and eventually let himself die when the world blew up.

17 was obviously nowhere as powerful during the Buu arc as he is now. At best he might have been around SSJ2 level, so he still would have failed against Fat Buu like everyone else. By the time Super Buu started killing everyone on Earth he would have been no match for him.

Based on what? You're saying that 17 made very small gains in his first seven years of training and multiplied his power thousands of times over in his next five or so years?

[Basako]

One of the things I like in this arc is making others apart from Goku and Vegeta, the only ones with god power level, relevant again. That doesn't mean they gotta be in the same level for that, Goku and Vegeta can handle the strongest warriors, while the others handle the weakest. I can totally see 18 beating the human with the red hat, Piccolo fighting Dyspo or Roshi defeating any other, just making examples, I don't know how strong they are. There are gonna be 70 warriors to fight, not all of them in god level, at least I hope they're not. So I was totally fine with having 17 in the team, even with a power up. But, battle of gods was such an exceptional event, the fight between Beerus and Goku in Kaio's planet established a huge distance just for the SSG, and SSB is even higher. It shouldn't be cheap to get there, not impossible, but this with 17 came like from nowhere. It wasn't necessary, as he could have fought pretty well, let's say in a SS2 equivalent level, that's already a considerable increase, without bullshiting the huge gap between the SS and god levels. Maybe he wouldn't handle Toppo, but he could Magetta or the female saiyan, for example again.

[BlueBasilisk]

Based on what? You're saying that 17 made very small gains in his first seven years of training and multiplied his power thousands of times over in his next five or so years?

Well...that's kind of how it worked for Goku and co.

[Basako]

Based on what? You're saying that 17 made very small gains in his first seven years of training and multiplied his power thousands of times over in his next five or so years?

Well...that's kind of how it worked for Goku and co.

Now it looks like going from SS to SS2 or 3 like nothing, it was relevant back then. Anyway, Goku got the ritual, Vegeta trained with Whis, what did 17 do? Apart from a very bad job saving the minotaurs.

[The Monkey King]

Trained doing what?
Doing jack shit around his island, beating up poachers?
He had no one at or around his level to train with and no access to outside sources to get a huge power boost.
Goku's base form training on his own in the afterlife for 7 years didn't even get twice as strong.

Not to mention what was his motivation for training? All he has to do is beat up piss weak poachers. It's not as though he trains to beat up bad guys since he let all this Buu, Beerus and Freeza bullshit happen on Earth, he's even content to let the entire universe be destroyed.

[HybridSaiyan]

Trained doing what?
Doing jack shit around his island, beating up poachers?
He had no one at or around his level to train with and no access to outside sources to get a huge power boost.
Goku's base form training on his own in the afterlife for 7 years didn't even get twice as strong.

Not to mention what was his motivation for training? All he has to do is beat up piss weak poachers. It's not as though he trains to beat up bad guys since he let all this Buu, Beerus and Freeza bullshit happen on Earth, he's even content to let the entire universe be destroyed.

Give this human a medal.

[The gr]

Trained doing what?
Doing jack shit around his island, beating up poachers?
He had no one at or around his level to train with and no access to outside sources to get a huge power boost.
Goku's base form training on his own in the afterlife for 7 years didn't even get twice as strong.

Not to mention what was his motivation for training? All he has to do is beat up piss weak poachers. It's not as though he trains to beat up bad guys since he let all this Buu, Beerus and Freeza bullshit happen on Earth, he's even content to let the entire universe be destroyed.

the irony of DBS,is established that you don't need that much power to win yet toei is powering there character to ridiculous levels, making that statement pointless,#17 is no doubt ssb rof tier, which is forced IMO, don't worry guys toyotaro is going to nerf krillin and #17 like he did with Trunks,because this is his favorite toy brand

I'm getting sick of ssb, they didn't even play the epic theme when goku transform to 17.

[namekiansaiyan]

Trained doing what?
Doing jack shit around his island, beating up poachers?
He had no one at or around his level to train with and no access to outside sources to get a huge power boost.
Goku's base form training on his own in the afterlife for 7 years didn't even get twice as strong.

Not to mention what was his motivation for training? All he has to do is beat up piss weak poachers. It's not as though he trains to beat up bad guys since he let all this Buu, Beerus and Freeza bullshit happen on Earth, he's even content to let the entire universe be destroyed.

Exactly, he has no reason whatsoever to be this strong. He should be just like 18.

One of the things I like in this arc is making others apart from Goku and Vegeta, the only ones with god power level, relevant again. That doesn't mean they gotta be in the same level for that, Goku and Vegeta can handle the strongest warriors, while the others handle the weakest. I can totally see 18 beating the human with the red hat, Piccolo fighting Dyspo or Roshi defeating any other, just making examples, I don't know how strong they are. There are gonna be 70 warriors to fight, not all of them in god level, at least I hope they're not. So I was totally fine with having 17 in the team, even with a power up. But, battle of gods was such an exceptional event, the fight between Beerus and Goku in Kaio's planet established a huge distance just for the SSG, and SSB is even higher. It shouldn't be cheap to get there, not impossible, but this with 17 came like from nowhere. It wasn't necessary, as he could have fought pretty well, let's say in a SS2 equivalent level, that's already a considerable increase, without bullshiting the huge gap between the SS and god levels. Maybe he wouldn't handle Toppo, but he could Magetta or the female saiyan, for example again.

They are all going to be quite strong and I have no problem with Krillin beating someone way stronger as long as their is consistency through all the fights.

[Triggered Vegeta]

Toei is pure trash.. they don't give a damn about consistency... SSG was meant to be a form never to be reached through regular training.. as Goku said he'd never be able to reach that level... Whis training is the only exception.. now Toei is making SSB seem like a total joke, apparently anybody can reach that level.... they're messing shit up, just like they did with Fusion Zamasu... meant to be way ahead of both Goku, Vegeta & Trunks.. yet loses in 2 beam struggles... complete garbage.

[Overlord78]

Toei is pure trash.. they don't give a damn about consistency... SSG was meant to be a form never to be reached through regular training.. as Goku said he'd never be able to reach that level... Whis training is the only exception.. now Toei is making SSB seem like a total joke, apparently anybody can reach that level.... they're messing shit up, just like they did with Fusion Zamasu... meant to be way ahead of both Goku, Vegeta & Trunks.. yet loses in 2 beam struggles... complete garbage.

Toei has been trash ever since the original DBZ aired e.g. Yamcha beating Olibu. They have never cared about consistency, it's just that they're even worse when it comes to Super.

[Basako]

They are all going to be quite strong and I have no problem with Krillin beating someone way stronger as long as their is consistency through all the fights.

Quite strong is fine, Botamo, Cabba, Frost and Basil are quite strong. Tenshinhan is quite strong too. But then we have the other league for those like Goku, Hit, Toppo or Jiren.

[Lord Beerus]

It must be stressed that we have no idea how much gains Androids make when they train. All we know is that they can get stronger through conventional training methods. For all we know, Android 17 (and 18) could make/could have made Golden Freeza level gains. It's possible. The concept of an Android training has never been explored before. So it's not like it's breaking any established lore or "head-canon". They can literally do whatever the hell they want at this stage with the battle power of Android 17 (and Android 18).

I also don't think he became SSJB level right off the bat. I think he just did some light training over the the last decade or so and his power just unexpectedly creeped to an insane height. Again, it's a rational possibility. There nothing established that it can't happen. It been more than 10 years. Not every character needs to jump through hoops to become insanely strong. The fashion in which most cast, especially the Saiyans, got strong in the show is the exception not the set stand and rule that must be obliged by every other character that trains. There's no universal gradient that must be abided to when a character grows in power. Especially for a character that's never trained before like Android 17.

I think it's just a case of many people not liking that the status quo can be shaken up even though we've already seen several characters challenge the likes of Goku and Vegeta when they use SSJB to varying degrees. When people see Goku use SSJB they automatically assume that Goku is using a good chunk of that power in that form to fight someone even though there are several tiers of strength from SSJ3 to SSJB that Goku can utilize.

So... yeah. I really don't see what the major problem is. People train and get stronger. That's just how Dragon Ball has been since day one. Some people make small gains through training for a very long time and others make great gains from training for a much lesser amount of time. Some do it on their own with basic tools and others do it with the aid of others or unique enhancements. It's all really dependable on... well... what the plot demands. Some use gimmicks and get special treatment to take shortcuts in get stronger while other just do it the old fashioned way.

People say that Android 17 shouldn't become this strong... but... since was it stated that he can't? Why put a literal glass ceiling on how strong a character, who's never trained before, can get? I'm not saying that people don't have the right to criticize Android 17 not going into more depth into how he got stronger. There's nothing wrong with wanting a bit more detail. But having the mentality of, "This character should not get this strong because my headcanon says so and so do my power levels", is not the best attitude to have. In my honest opinion.

A great post by JulieYBM also highlights what I'm trying to convey:

Consistency is the dumbest excuse to do anything else. When you're wracking your brain day-after-day, night-after-night, struggling to produce a work you are creatively happy with, the last thing that should be on your mind is 'consistency'. Make something you're happy with, 'cause it sure isn't always going to be possible for someone else to make something you're happy with! This has always been how Toriyama Akira has operated and it is some pretty darn solid advice. When you've been creating a work for years and are still trying to add in new installments and try new things some silly thing like 'consistency' is not going to help. It's going to hinder. Hinder, hinder, hinder!

"Hey, let's do a new kind of tournament where instead of eight people fighting one-on-one it's EIGHTY people fighting all at once!"
"Awesome!"
"Hey, let's give Kuririn and the other humans something to do in this arc. I love their characters!"
"Huh?"
"They can use strategy and techniques to--"
"But that doesn't fit in with how things worked in the earlier story arcs!"
"Eh, whatever. This is what I feel like doing now--"
"NO!!! THE BATTLE POWERS WON'T MAKE ANY SENSE!!"
"We stopped using those for a reas--"
"BESIDES TENSHINHAN IS THE ONLY HUMAN WHO MIGHT EVER BE ABLE TO--"
"Then you make the fucking cartoon by yourself."

Why the hell is anyone attracted to art? It's because we like the experience of consuming the work, of course, but why? It's the characters, the color, the dialogue, the sounds, and the animation...but what do those things represent? The ideas and feelings of their creators. What we are doing is sharing in and learning about the person who creates them. We are experiencing a human connection. That connection is at it's more powerful and fruitful when the work represents the powerful feelings are its creators. If you start making up silly restrictions you are going to get a soulless creation. What the heck is the point of spending your time consuming something its creators have no passion for?

Just my two cents.