In truth, there is a entire fight where Android 17 fight on par with Goku visibly engaged, and where the first not show the slightest problem to resist to his Kamehameha (one of his best attacks).This phony story who would claim that Goku turns into its most powerful stage, and then take part in a duel where he fights with fury and commitment, but at the same time hold back a generous 90% of its power, create only to tempt to justify Toei's blunders, I honestly find quite risible.
The same could be said for the deliberate hand waving of both fighters holding back being ignored so we can make massive assumptions about power levels. Again Goku's most powerful form is also his most controlled form. SSJ2 and SSJ3 are less efficcient, more straining, and don't offer the same level of ki control..
This is a myth. Goku has never had any issues sustaining and regulating his SSJ2 form.
He had one, maybe 2, fights in it. The first time he used it was when he was dead and therefore could sustain the power more, just as he could with SSJ3. That was when he fought Majin Vegeta, who similar had a power augmentation. The next was maybe for a brief period when he was trying to convince Vegeta to fuse with him. Which wasn't long enough to gauge. He's always struggled with SSJ3. Toriyama also stated that SSJ2 and SSJ3 were imperfect forms and Goku realized he was better off perfecting the traditional SSJ. And SSJB was stated to be a mastery of ki control.
So again the more optimal forms are base, SSJ, and SSJB.
People are really jumping the gun on saying he's Blue Tier. He's not gonna be that strong.
We just saw Super Saiyan Blue Goku hold back so much that Krillin could stand up to him and Android 18 can simply kick his Kamehameha flying. Yet even though we know for sure he was holding back in this episode....there's some who don't take it into full consideration.
It seems to me that more people aren't taking into full consideration that it was said 17 was holding back too.
Oh they are. But 17 also recognized he probably would've lost to Goku's full power.
Maybe. That's another translation that needs to be sorted out.
perucho1990 wrote:How would 17 fare against these characters?
1. Golden Freeza with unlimited Stamina.
2. Anime Mirai Zamasu (no immortality)
3. U6 Arc Hit
4. Amped Bergamo
5. Toppo
6. Mirai Trunks(no Genkidama mode)
7. Black
8. Unrestricted Hit
He get wasted by all of those characters.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Using the Golden Frieza argument for Android 17 is pretty dumb considering the ROF is probably the worst arc of Super so far and you're using a Super reference which had BS powerscaling in the first place to justify more BS powerscaling later...
On another topic, Uub better be at least as powerful as SSJB Goku since Kid Buu has now been outclassed by Android 17 lol
gofishus wrote:Using the Golden Frieza argument for Android 17 is pretty dumb considering the ROF is probably the worst arc of Super so far and you're using a Super reference which had BS powerscaling in the first place to justify more BS powerscaling later...
On another topic, Uub better be at least as powerful as SSJB Goku since Kid Buu has now been outclassed by Android 17 lol
The the fract that we get two widely different answers several arcs later is ridiculous.
Quick who wins in a fight? Piccolo Buu saga vs final form Frieza? How about Cell saga Krillin vs Nappa? I wonder if we will have as many different answers as the 17 list above.
Lord Beerus wrote:But... Krillin didn't beat a SSJB tier character using strength or tactics. He outsmarted base Gohan who was kicking his ass and not using all of his power.
Yeah that was already made pretty clear that Krillin was weaker than Base Gohan to the point he had to catch him off guard to win. Base Gohan is far stronger as a Super Saiyan. Possibly far stronger as Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiyan Blue Goku is far above that.
So we know for a fact that Super Saiyan Blue Goku can hold back tremendously. Even that episode when he fought Arale he fired the one Kamehameha that countered Arales mouth blast and then soon afterward began preparing a Kamehameha to counter another of Arales mouth blast said to be 100 times more powerful.
perucho1990 wrote:How would 17 fare against these characters?
1. Golden Freeza with unlimited Stamina.
2. Anime Mirai Zamasu (no immortality)
3. U6 Arc Hit
4. Amped Bergamo
5. Toppo
6. Mirai Trunks(no Genkidama mode)
7. Black
8. Unrestricted Hit
There's nothing to suggest he'd be close to a single one of them. So none for now.
Lord Beerus wrote:But... Krillin didn't beat a SSJB tier character using strength or tactics. He outsmarted base Gohan who was kicking his ass and not using all of his power.
Yeah that was already made pretty clear that Krillin was weaker than Base Gohan to the point he had to catch him off guard to win. Base Gohan is far stronger as a Super Saiyan. Possibly far stronger as Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiyan Blue Goku is far above that.
So we know for a fact that Super Saiyan Blue Goku can hold back tremendously. Even that episode when he fought Arale he fired the one Kamehameha that countered Arales mouth blast and then soon afterward began preparing a Kamehameha to counter another of Arales mouth blast said to be 100 times more powerful.
Not to mention that he and Vegeta used SSJB to play baseball.
I think SSJB is used as often as it by Goku because it's the optimal transformation. You can seamlessly control its power output from something that is very miniscule to something incredibly powerful instantaneously. SSJB basically works the perfect substitute for every other Super Saiyan transformation. Plus, you don't have to worry about any stamina issue given that SSJB work under the criteria of a transformation that doesn't leak ki. SSJB is pretty much the perfect transformation. At this stage Goku only really needs to transform into SSJ1/2/3 to serve a warm-up for when he spars with someone or when he's not taking a fight seriously. And for marketing reasons.
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
Those toys, keychains and Dragon Ball Heroes cards won't sell themselves, ya know.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Lord Beerus wrote:But... Krillin didn't beat a SSJB tier character using strength or tactics. He outsmarted base Gohan who was kicking his ass and not using all of his power.
Yeah that was already made pretty clear that Krillin was weaker than Base Gohan to the point he had to catch him off guard to win. Base Gohan is far stronger as a Super Saiyan. Possibly far stronger as Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiyan Blue Goku is far above that.
So we know for a fact that Super Saiyan Blue Goku can hold back tremendously. Even that episode when he fought Arale he fired the one Kamehameha that countered Arales mouth blast and then soon afterward began preparing a Kamehameha to counter another of Arales mouth blast said to be 100 times more powerful.
Not to mention that he and Vegeta used SSJB to play baseball.
I think SSJB is used as often as it by Goku because it's the optimal transformation. You can seamlessly control its power output from something that is very miniscule to something incredibly powerful instantaneously. SSJB basically works the perfect substitute for every other Super Saiyan transformation. Plus, you don't have to worry about any stamina issue given that SSJB work under the criteria of a transformation that doesn't leak ki. SSJB is pretty much the perfect transformation. At this stage Goku only really needs to transform into SSJ1/2/3 to serve a warm-up for when he spars with someone or when he's not taking a fight seriously. And for marketing reasons.
Ok I understood it was said that SSB has superior ki control but where was that ever said or implied that it means the characters are capable to doing the things we claim like incrementally regulating output. I'm don't recall that ever being said or implied and sounds like something that was made up by fans to support their arguments. The closest we ever got to something like that was FSSJ which Goku and Gohan worked at and was noticeably different. We've never seen anything to inply other than the off hand "ki control" comment what that actually means in practice. The only practical information we go from that was that it allows Goku to combine SSB and kaioken. Nothing about how it works was stated beyond that so where did this information we keep spreading come from??
Bullza wrote:
Yeah that was already made pretty clear that Krillin was weaker than Base Gohan to the point he had to catch him off guard to win. Base Gohan is far stronger as a Super Saiyan. Possibly far stronger as Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiyan Blue Goku is far above that.
So we know for a fact that Super Saiyan Blue Goku can hold back tremendously. Even that episode when he fought Arale he fired the one Kamehameha that countered Arales mouth blast and then soon afterward began preparing a Kamehameha to counter another of Arales mouth blast said to be 100 times more powerful.
Not to mention that he and Vegeta used SSJB to play baseball.
I think SSJB is used as often as it by Goku because it's the optimal transformation. You can seamlessly control its power output from something that is very miniscule to something incredibly powerful instantaneously. SSJB basically works the perfect substitute for every other Super Saiyan transformation. Plus, you don't have to worry about any stamina issue given that SSJB work under the criteria of a transformation that doesn't leak ki. SSJB is pretty much the perfect transformation. At this stage Goku only really needs to transform into SSJ1/2/3 to serve a warm-up for when he spars with someone or when he's not taking a fight seriously. And for marketing reasons.
Ok I understood it was said that SSB has superior ki control but where was that ever said or implied that it means the characters are capable to doing the things we claim like incrementally regulating output. I'm don't recall that ever being said or implied and sounds like something that was made up by fans to support their arguments. The closest we ever got to something like that was FSSJ which Goku and Gohan worked at and was noticeably different. We've never seen anything to inply other than the off hand "ki control" comment what that actually means in practice. The only practical information we go from that was that it allows Goku to combine SSB and kaioken. Nothing about how it works was stated beyond that so where did this information we keep spreading come from??
That combined with how often it's used. It's used in baseball, testing Krillin/Future Trunks, whenever somebody makes baby Bulla/Bra cry, and all those other instances of its use. It certainly has no obvious disadvantages in the anime compared to the manga.
Being a form of the mastered SS form, it's naturally very stable, but possessing the power of SSG makes it stable enough that it can be used with Kaio-ken where normal SS can't.
Lord Beerus wrote:
Not to mention that he and Vegeta used SSJB to play baseball.
I think SSJB is used as often as it by Goku because it's the optimal transformation. You can seamlessly control its power output from something that is very miniscule to something incredibly powerful instantaneously. SSJB basically works the perfect substitute for every other Super Saiyan transformation. Plus, you don't have to worry about any stamina issue given that SSJB work under the criteria of a transformation that doesn't leak ki. SSJB is pretty much the perfect transformation. At this stage Goku only really needs to transform into SSJ1/2/3 to serve a warm-up for when he spars with someone or when he's not taking a fight seriously. And for marketing reasons.
Ok I understood it was said that SSB has superior ki control but where was that ever said or implied that it means the characters are capable to doing the things we claim like incrementally regulating output. I'm don't recall that ever being said or implied and sounds like something that was made up by fans to support their arguments. The closest we ever got to something like that was FSSJ which Goku and Gohan worked at and was noticeably different. We've never seen anything to inply other than the off hand "ki control" comment what that actually means in practice. The only practical information we go from that was that it allows Goku to combine SSB and kaioken. Nothing about how it works was stated beyond that so where did this information we keep spreading come from??
That combined with how often it's used. It's used in baseball, testing Krillin/Future Trunks, whenever somebody makes baby Bulla/Bra cry, and all those other instances of its use. It certainly has no obvious disadvantages in the anime compared to the manga.
Being a form of the mastered SS form, it's naturally very stable, but possessing the power of SSG makes it stable enough that it can be used with Kaio-ken where normal SS can't.
Wait where is this information coming from? Where was it stand to be stable? Where was stability even mentioned? These are the kinds of things I'm asking, where is this additional information about how SSB works coming from b cause to my knownledge we only have two sentences, power of a SSJ with God and ki control.
TheMikado wrote:
Ok I understood it was said that SSB has superior ki control but where was that ever said or implied that it means the characters are capable to doing the things we claim like incrementally regulating output. I'm don't recall that ever being said or implied and sounds like something that was made up by fans to support their arguments. The closest we ever got to something like that was FSSJ which Goku and Gohan worked at and was noticeably different. We've never seen anything to inply other than the off hand "ki control" comment what that actually means in practice. The only practical information we go from that was that it allows Goku to combine SSB and kaioken. Nothing about how it works was stated beyond that so where did this information we keep spreading come from??
That combined with how often it's used. It's used in baseball, testing Krillin/Future Trunks, whenever somebody makes baby Bulla/Bra cry, and all those other instances of its use. It certainly has no obvious disadvantages in the anime compared to the manga.
Being a form of the mastered SS form, it's naturally very stable, but possessing the power of SSG makes it stable enough that it can be used with Kaio-ken where normal SS can't.
Wait where is this information coming from? Where was it stand to be stable? Where was stability even mentioned? These are the kinds of things I'm asking, where is this additional information about how SSB works coming from b cause to my knownledge we only have two sentences, power of a SSJ with God and ki control.
I used stable in the same sense as regular SS, not any specific dialogue. Besides, I use "stable" interchangeably with "good Ki control", because that's exactly what a stable form is: a form that doesn't leak energy like SS2 or SS3. The fact that Goku and Vegeta get a taste of this kind of power by learning how to keep their Ki from leaking is likely where SSB's great Ki control comes from.
Elder Kai also stated that even the mastered regular SS was too intensive to be used in conjunction with Kaio-ken, whereas SSB wasn't and had the Ki control to do the job.
