Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Okay, I think I know how to scale things now, based on the old Ultimate boost, the assumption that Goku/Vegeta are super-strong but not god-level in base, etc.

===

Let's say that Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan are equal in base form. How strong is said base form? Let's say that this level is as strong or stronger than SS3 Gotenks but weaker than the original Ultimate Gohan.

Going by the original boost the Ultimate state gave to a Gohan who was getting back up to Goku's level in the Buu Saga, I'd say an 8000-10000x boost from a weaker-than-Freeza base form is accurate, assuming that the multipliers for SS1-3 are still intact. If Gohan's current Ultimate is anywhere near a similar boost in power from base form, and assuming that Gohan is anywhere near equal to a strong-base Goku/Vegeta, that'd put SSG/B at around 20x stronger than Goku's current SS3 power, and that's a lowball estimate.

So, that'd put the god-forms at a few thousand times stronger than some form of Majin Buu, probably Super Buu based on SS3 Gotenks's usage in this scaling. That's actually comparable to the SS4 form in Dragon Ball GT.

I believe the video-games had occasional character comments that said that SS4 was a comparable form to SSG. Based on my math up above, that's closer to the truth than previously thought. So SSG is ~4000x stronger than current base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan/Future Trunks, maybe a little more, and SSB is a few times stronger than that. Not bad, I must say. I'm sure I've made many horrendous errors, but what do you guys think? Acceptable compromise?

[Bullza]

It would definitely seem like Vegeta kept his special SSJ2 form in the manga. Trunks was equal to SSJ3 Goku and then he trained with Vegeta in the gravity machine for however long.

Despite that Vegeta still said after fighting Black that Trunks would be no match for him yet he was winning.

SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ2 Trunks > SSJ3 Goku

It's a weird way of doing it and probably could have been done better but whatever.

[Lord Beerus]

For the record, I don't mind the idea that Vegeta kept his Mutated/Raging Super Saiyan 2 form. The problem is that it's never implied, hinted or even indirectly inferred that the rage boost Vegeta got against Beerus in the BOG arc was permanent. I mean, that's not how rage boosts even work. I just have hard time buying that Vegeta permanently unlocked his own mutated SSJ2 form because of how poorly the manga implies that to be the case. It's much like Goku and Vegeta having two base forms in the anime. It's a theory. Not an indisputable, stone cold fact like people are claiming it to be. But, hey, whatever floats people's power level boats.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

For the record, I don't mind the idea that Vegeta kept his Mutated/Raging Super Saiyan 2 form. The problem is that it's never implied, hinted or even indirectly inferred that the rage boost Vegeta got against Beerus in the BOG arc was permanent. I mean, that's not how rage boosts even work. I just have hard time buying that Vegeta permanently unlocked his own mutated SSJ2 form because of how poorly the manga implies that to be the case. It's much like Goku and Vegeta having two base forms in the anime. It's a theory. Not an indisputable, stone cold fact like people are claiming it to be. But, hey, whatever floats people's power level boats.

Ironically, the manga may have benefited from including Future Trunks's SS Rage form for that exact purpose by explaining it as a permanent rage-boost version of SS2 that Vegeta managed to get a hold of himself following the events of the BoG Arc

[Hugo Boss]

The way it is presented, it seems like SS2 Vegeta is over 50 times stronger than SS3 Goku, if you count that Base Black is stronger than SS3 Goku, Super Saiyan gives you a 50x boost (as far as the media has informed*), and Vegeta is even stronger than that.

*(Since Toyotaro considers himself a great fan of the franchise, he is probably familiar with Super Saiyan's 50x boost. Unless the fan aspect of him is focused on bringing back the different forms without caring for their powerlevels.)

In another hand, Trunks does comment about Black's Super Saiyan form getting stronger and stronger, so he probably isn't putting out the 50x boost we all know until Zamas heals him in the middle of the fight.

[Lord Beerus]

For the record, I don't mind the idea that Vegeta kept his Mutated/Raging Super Saiyan 2 form. The problem is that it's never implied, hinted or even indirectly inferred that the rage boost Vegeta got against Beerus in the BOG arc was permanent. I mean, that's not how rage boosts even work. I just have hard time buying that Vegeta permanently unlocked his own mutated SSJ2 form because of how poorly the manga implies that to be the case. It's much like Goku and Vegeta having two base forms in the anime. It's a theory. Not an indisputable, stone cold fact like people are claiming it to be. But, hey, whatever floats people's power level boats.

Ironically, the manga may have benefited from including Future Trunks's SS Rage form for that exact purpose by explaining it as a permanent rage-boost version of SS2 that Vegeta managed to get a hold of himself following the events of the BoG Arc

I hope the manga actually does this with Future Trunks getting his special SSJ Rage form. But I think the shipped has sailed. Especially now that were into the endgame. Next month has to be the final chapter.

[TAF108]

Okay, I think I know how to scale things now, based on the old Ultimate boost, the assumption that Goku/Vegeta are super-strong but not god-level in base, etc.

===

Let's say that Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan are equal in base form. How strong is said base form? Let's say that this level is as strong or stronger than SS3 Gotenks but weaker than the original Ultimate Gohan.

Going by the original boost the Ultimate state gave to a Gohan who was getting back up to Goku's level in the Buu Saga, I'd say an 8000-10000x boost from a weaker-than-Freeza base form is accurate, assuming that the multipliers for SS1-3 are still intact. If Gohan's current Ultimate is anywhere near a similar boost in power from base form, and assuming that Gohan is anywhere near equal to a strong-base Goku/Vegeta, that'd put SSG/B at around 20x stronger than Goku's current SS3 power, and that's a lowball estimate.

So, that'd put the god-forms at a few thousand times stronger than some form of Majin Buu, probably Super Buu based on SS3 Gotenks's usage in this scaling. That's actually comparable to the SS4 form in Dragon Ball GT.

I believe the video-games had occasional character comments that said that SS4 was a comparable form to SSG. Based on my math up above, that's closer to the truth than previously thought. So SSG is ~4000x stronger than current base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan/Future Trunks, maybe a little more, and SSB is a few times stronger than that. Not bad, I must say. I'm sure I've made many horrendous errors, but what do you guys think? Acceptable compromise?

I don't mean to be that guy, but hey, I am. So I'll say it. I've never seen 4,000x as a functional multiplier for SSJ4. So I wouldn't say that it is ergo comparable to SSJG, if it has that multiplier.

Multipliers are always a fickle thing. I think it's best to just assume they're intact, otherwise it is legitimately complete guess work. I think I said earlier in this thread that Base Goku (and by extent Vegeta & now Gohan, and even Trunks for a time) are borderline inconsistent. So that would definitely play a role here as well. I think because of that, it would be hard to tell. As far as video games comparing the forms. SSJG is pretty new, and Blue even more so. The only comparisons video games have made that I can think of are in Xenoverse.

Anyway, the gist of what I'm saying is Base Saiyajin strength currently is guess work other than statements, but I'd confidently say that have enough feats to put them Boo Saga tier, SSJG's form's power has a lot of factors, so I'd think it's difficult to find a multiplier, and I'd say there are a few more factors thrown in there, considering Base Gohan being comparable to Goku was a recent development. (As in last episode, recent.)

[TheSaiyanGod]

We have some chances to consider Vegeta SSJ2 to be stronger than Goku SSJ3.

>Well, he trained in the gravity room with Trunks before going to the future, staring at him with no effort, although it was only a frame(Since technically, the base form of Trunks would be superior to his).

> He may have trained in RoSaT, we saw that he Uses this room more than Goku, and his base form may have surpassed his.

>His SSJ2 may have become stronger than normal after the fight against Beerus.

>Or Toyotaro just wanted to match Vegeta's SSJ2 to others, since without The SSG and SSB, it would be well below the others.

Well Vegeta obviously trained in the Rosat and got stronger due to a combination of training and anger. He was stronger than Black when he fought him but even after Black powered up and got the Scythe, Vegeta must have still been stronger.

Trunks got a rage boost just before he attacked Merged Zamasu after seeing his father beaten on the ground. This was pointed out by Supreme Kai. I think people may have forgotten about this one.

As for Goku...

My view was that Goku's boost against Black and Zamasu was indeed permanent, and stronger than Black; it's just that he was caught off guard. Vegeta just closed the gap when he went into the RoSaT.

...that's probably what I'd go with as well.

I doubt it. Gowasu described Black as "the most powerful" in E65.

I still think Vegeta is stronger than Goku by a good margin. It seems Goku didn't get a rage boost after E61.

And in the next episode, Goku counteracts an attack of someone VERY stronger than Black, and Vegeta resists and some of his attacks.This speech would not make sense either if we considered that Goku had the Kaioken and Vegeta said (after Black used his scythe) That he is Goku would take care of the rest without being worried.

Goku did not have a Rage Boost after the E61, but he got stronger after going back to the past, injured and recovering. And that was stated by Black himself. So he really was able to keep up with that fight yes.

I thought what Vegeta was doing allowed him to attack with the full 100% of Blues power. Isn't that what Goku is doing now? Except he doesn't have to keep swapping forms?

Or is this no aura version of Blue that Goku is using supposed to be even stronger than that 100%?

I would say that Vegeta was using SSB with all his power for a few moments, but unlike Goku. Vegeta's SSB still had energy drain, he just bypassed it by switching between two forms quickly and being able to use for all of his power as SSB. Goku controlled all that overflowing Ki of the SSB into his body, Eliminating the weaknesses of the form,And possibly gaining a Boost on your strength. In addition to seeming to have side effects (such as burns, while trying to contain the Ki leak). Then there was a "perfect" SSB and using all the potential that the form has

[Cabba]

It would definitely seem like Vegeta kept his special SSJ2 form in the manga. Trunks was equal to SSJ3 Goku and then he trained with Vegeta in the gravity machine for however long.

Despite that Vegeta still said after fighting Black that Trunks would be no match for him yet he was winning.

SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ2 Trunks > SSJ3 Goku

It's a weird way of doing it and probably could have been done better but whatever.

What you are missing is that this form is not exclusive to Vegeta, Goku posess it as well, he just didnt use it against trunks. We shouldnt even call it a form, that will just muddle the waters. Its just full power SS2, just like you have base form and full power base form same principle.

Once we accept SS3 was only there for show it all falls into place

"Full power" SS2 Vegeta and Goku are between buu saga Buuhan and Vegeto tier on the manga
"Full power" SS2 Trunks is Buu saga SS3 tier on the manga

Its clear Trunks would be no match for black since he was only at the buu saga SS3 level

Full power SSJ(2) Goku=Full power SSJ(2) Vegeta>>>Full power SSJ(2) Trunks=regular SS3

The thing that seems to confuse people is that they assume SS levels work in predetermined levels not subject to change.
Right now the manga and anime share the same continuty in terms of of power Goku and Vegeta have as SS2 which is near buu saga Vegeto tier

Ironically, the manga may have benefited from including Future Trunks's SS Rage form for that exact purpose by explaining it as a permanent rage-boost version of SS2 that Vegeta managed to get a hold of himself following the events of the BoG Arc

It has nothing to do with rage mode. Goku has this form as well
Just because Goku did not use it against trunks doesnt mean he does not have it
SS3 is just a legacy transformation which just doesnt work in DBS. Akira already commented how Goku would use base form and SSJ from now on. SS2 just being a full powered SSj

For this reason I'm glad goku used SSB instead of SS3 against Gohan

We have some chances to consider Vegeta SSJ2 to be stronger than Goku SSJ3.

I'm curious why do you think only Vegeta has this powerful SS(2) form?
The manga showed it clearly you can switch between "regular" SS2 and full power SS2

Goku was fighting against a "regular" SS2 trunks, so it made sense he didnt go full power on him

[avasatu]

Okay, I think I know how to scale things now, based on the old Ultimate boost, the assumption that Goku/Vegeta are super-strong but not god-level in base, etc.

===

Let's say that Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan are equal in base form. How strong is said base form? Let's say that this level is as strong or stronger than SS3 Gotenks but weaker than the original Ultimate Gohan.

Going by the original boost the Ultimate state gave to a Gohan who was getting back up to Goku's level in the Buu Saga, I'd say an 8000-10000x boost from a weaker-than-Freeza base form is accurate, assuming that the multipliers for SS1-3 are still intact. If Gohan's current Ultimate is anywhere near a similar boost in power from base form, and assuming that Gohan is anywhere near equal to a strong-base Goku/Vegeta, that'd put SSG/B at around 20x stronger than Goku's current SS3 power, and that's a lowball estimate.

So, that'd put the god-forms at a few thousand times stronger than some form of Majin Buu, probably Super Buu based on SS3 Gotenks's usage in this scaling. That's actually comparable to the SS4 form in Dragon Ball GT.

I believe the video-games had occasional character comments that said that SS4 was a comparable form to SSG. Based on my math up above, that's closer to the truth than previously thought. So SSG is ~4000x stronger than current base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan/Future Trunks, maybe a little more, and SSB is a few times stronger than that. Not bad, I must say. I'm sure I've made many horrendous errors, but what do you guys think? Acceptable compromise?

I can't swallow a SSB only being 20x SS3. Let's say Goku is 10,000 times Buu saga SS3 in base form right now. This would make him 4 million times galaxy level (high ball) as an SS3 currently, according to your calculations. 20 times that is certainly not remotely close to Universal +. Remember when Goku stated that the power of god essence was so much stronger than he could have ever imagined? Remember how it came with such speed that he was flopping around all over the place? Remember when he stated there was no way he could possibly reach this level via training, and it even disappointed him? That doesn't sound like a 20 times boost to me. Of course, it's much more than 20 counting how much stronger Goku has gotten since the beginning of Super, but that's negligible compared to the magnitude of power we're talking about.

That said, I think you're onto something. a lot of things are falling into place.

As a side not, where are people getting that SS3 Goku was on part with SS2 Trunks when they met? The anime never states such a thing that I can recall.

Anyway, my theory is as follows:

SS2 Gohan (Buu Saga) is about even with Dabura, who was stated to be in the neighborhood of Cell. Let's say for simplicity that Dabura = Cell. Now, my calculations have Perfect Cell at around 1000 times 100% Frieza, maybe a little higher, and I don't want to run through them, but let's say that's accurate. Main Villain 1 of DBZ was Vegeta, who had a level of 180k in Great Ape form, and Frieza was about 1k times stronger than that at max power (going by uninjured full power Frieza being 200 million, according to a tough-to-find guidebook which stated that 120 million was Frieza's post-Spirit bomb full power only). Anyway, this has me thinking full power Fat Buu is around 1000 times Dabura, since the natural progression between villains from one mana arc to the next seems to be 1000 (Dabura=Cell=1000*Frieza=1000*Vegeta).

Now, a commonly accepted multiplier for Super Buu to Fat Buu is 1.5x. We know base Buu-saga Gohan is 1/100*Dabura since SS2 Gohan is about even with Dabura. Plugging in the numbers, we have that Super Buu is 150k times stronger than Base Gohan in Buu saga (pre-any training Gohan does). Now, let's say Ultimate Gohan is 2*Super Buu. I believe this is about accurate because in raw power, SS3 Gotenks > Super Buu by a significant margin in terms of raw power, and Buutenks stomps Ultimate Gohan. This means that Ultimate Gohan has a boost of 300k times pre-Z Sword training base Gohan.

Now, I have no idea how much stronger base Gohan got from the time he fought Dabura to after his Z Sword training, but let's be nice and give CURRENT base Gohan pre-Piccolo's limit breaking training a 300k times boost when he goes Ultimate at the present instant in time, since his training with Piccolo seems to have amplified his power even more significantly than before (pretty hand-wavy, I know). Assuming Base Gohan = Base Goku, this means CURRENT Ultimate Gohan is 750 times SS3 Goku. I believe blue is significantly stronger than this even, but let's be nice and say blue is only twice Ultimate Gohan. This would put SSB at 1500 times SS3. Now, while this STILL doesn't explain the massive gap between galaxy level and universal + level, I believe 1500 times boost in SS3 power is enough for Goku to have made the statements I mentioned above regarding the massive power increase SSG gave him vs Beerus.

Inevitably, something I said contradicts something in the lore or the story, or I made a mistake somewhere, but I'm not displeased with the overall result.

EDIT: Now that I think of it, actually it's not really Galaxy to Universal +, since Goku has gotten many, many times stronger in base since Buu saga. That's at least a little helpful.

[ChiefWamsutta]

There seems to be four variations of Super Saiyan 2: 1) The one Gohan uses to fight Cell and with which Goku fights Majin Vegeta; 2) Manga Trunks' version against SS3 Goku; 3) Battle of Gods 'My Bulma' Vegeta; 4) Super Saiyan Rage.

I see the original DBZ SS2 as Grade 1. Trunks improved upon it to become stronger and it was SS2 Grade 2. Vegeta's rage-filled anger against Beerus was SS2 Grade 3. Super Saiyan Rage is a SS2 Grade 4 that actualizes the true full potential of the Super Saiyan forms.

SS1 Grade 1 was the original. SS1 Grades 2 and 3 were flawed buff forms that outputted power in the wrong ways. SS1 Grade 4 enhanced the power in a more stable way. SS2 drew more power from the true nature of the Super Saiyan form -- anger and wrath. Super Saiyan 3 was Goku trying to force out more power in the wrong way and it backfired as a failed form. He tried to force more out without utilizing rage. The SS2 Grades utilized the anger better, and Trunks' Super Saiyan Rage from the Black Arc actualized the true final form of Super Saiyan.

I really do like this method for a few reasons. It makes Manga Trunks' form not a random power-up to SS2. It almost represents 'My Bulma' SS2 as a foreshadowing of the power that the Super Saiyan 2 form can possess. This makes Super Saiyan Rage far less out-of-the-blue. It also idolizes Super Saiyan 2 as the final form of Super Saiyan like it should be and treats SS3 as a random fluke.


I honestly highly doubt that we will see anymore new Super Saiyan gold-haired forms. This seems like a logical way to conclude the branch of power.

[Lord Beerus]

So Chapter 24 has been released in English by Viz.

And it's nothing we already don't know. 100%/Mastered/Completed Super Saiyan Blue is par with Merged Zamasu. Although, it's very interesting to note that that Vegeta comments that you can fight at 100% of the power of Super Saiyan Blue but only for a short while. This would mean that when SSJB Vegeta ate the senzu after getting his ass kicked by SSJ Goku Black, following his first zenkai, he was by all means fighting at 100% of the power of SSJB against SSJ Goku Black, even if it was for a short period and still lost badly. But in Goku case, because he contain the power of SSJB and fight longer at 100%, he seemingly gets a huge boost in strength from it for some reason and Vegeta didn't. And Vegeta only knew that you could master SSJB while being fused with Goku.

[Cabba]

There seems to be four variations of Super Saiyan 2:

I think its just SSJ now with more powerful forms being just that more powerful forms
Goku and Vegeta do have the same max power SS(2), its not a rage mode they have clear control over it Vegeta in the manga and Goku in the latest anime episode. They achieved this power through Whiss training and the number of battles they have been in since

I think its silly to credit some BoG rage boost based on the assumption that Goku lacks said form when in reality he just refrained from using it against trunks because he just wasn't strong enough
I have yet to see a argument backing up claims that vegeta full power SS(2) is more powerful than Gokus

The current SS(2) full power is the result of them training efficiently and focusing on base form and using SS(2) to further boost that power something which is not possible to do with SS3 since that is a inefficient transformation, like you said it backfired. Rage could indeed be used here, but i think its over stimating its impact and downplaying the special training and battles goku and vegeta went through

Trunks did mention he never settled for buu saga SS2 levels of power and he continued training hard to achieve near SS3 levels of power, this was achieved through his hard work and dedication not some random rage boost

So Chapter 24 has been released in English by Viz.

And it's nothing we already don't know. 100%/Mastered/Completed Super Saiyan Blue is par with Merged Zamasu. Although, it's very interesting to note that that Vegeta comments that you can fight at 100% of the power of Super Saiyan Blue but only for a short while. This would mean that when SSJB Vegeta ate the senzu after getting his ass kicked by SSJ Goku Black, following his first zenkai, he was by all means fighting at 100% of the power of SSJB against SSJ Goku Black, even if it was for a short period and still lost badly. But in Goku case, because he contain the power of SSJB and fight longer at 100%, he seemingly gets a huge boost in strength from it for some reason and Vegeta didn't. And Vegeta only knew that you could master SSJB while being fused with Goku.

Thanks for the heads up, I was waiting for this
He said the same thing back when he introduced the SSG/SSB combination, i also found it weird. But then he also (or was it goku?) mentioned that switching forms allowed to build up power like supercharge blue power inside and release it in a quick explosive attack. So its technically impossible to supercharge Blue if you dont have the perfect complete form, the moment you transform you are operating at less than 100% since you instantly begin losing power and/or complete form allows you to supercharge blue beyond whats possible using it the old way

[Lord Beerus]

So Chapter 24 has been released in English by Viz.

And it's nothing we already don't know. 100%/Mastered/Completed Super Saiyan Blue is par with Merged Zamasu. Although, it's very interesting to note that that Vegeta comments that you can fight at 100% of the power of Super Saiyan Blue but only for a short while. This would mean that when SSJB Vegeta ate the senzu after getting his ass kicked by SSJ Goku Black, following his first zenkai, he was by all means fighting at 100% of the power of SSJB against SSJ Goku Black, even if it was for a short period and still lost badly. But in Goku case, because he contain the power of SSJB and fight longer at 100%, he seemingly gets a huge boost in strength from it for some reason and Vegeta didn't. And Vegeta only knew that you could master SSJB while being fused with Goku.

Thanks for the heads up, I was waiting for this
He said the same thing back when he introduced the SSG/SSB combination, i also found it weird. But then he also (or was it goku?) mentioned that switching forms allowed to build up power like supercharge blue power inside and release it in a quick explosive attack. So its technically impossible to supercharge Blue if you dont have the perfect complete form, the moment you transform you are operating at less than 100% since you instantly begin losing power and/or complete form allows you to supercharge blue beyond whats possible using it the old way

The major inconsistency is that you can fight at 100%, prior to mastering the form. Vegeta states so himself. And it's not as if the moment you turn SSJB you can't maintain it's complete power because you can, for the very least a short period of time. So it's not as if SSJB burns through your energy instantly. You just can't maintain it at 100% too long without mastering the form. This would mean that SSJ Goku Black, after his first Zenkai is very much comparable to Merged Zamasu considering Vegeta fought hiM at 100% of the power of SSJB, or very least, incredibly close to the 100% power of SSJB.

That would mean the power hierarchy for the arc would be something like this:
SSJB Vegetto
Merged Zamasu
SSJB Goku
Base Vegetto
Merged Zamasu
SSJ Goku Black (Post Zenkai)
SSJB Vegeta (Post second ROSAT)
SSJR Goku Black
SSJB Goku
SSJR Goku Black
SSJ Goku Black (Post Zenkai)
SSJB Vegeta (Pre second ROSAT)
SSJG Goku/Vegeta
Future Trunks
Zamasu

[Basako]

I think they are like this:

Vegetto SSB
Merged Zamasu
Goku mastered SSB
Black SSR
Black SS / SS2
Vegeta SSB
Vegeta SSG
Vegeta SS2
Black base
Trunks SS2
Zamasu
Kibito

I see a problem when Black fought in SS against Vegeta in blue, although the real beat up happened when he went rose. I also add when Black fought Trunks the first time in base, I think it would have been better if he had transformed to SS right there, because Trunks in SS2 was very strong too.

[DBZ Macky]

Frieza was about 1k times stronger than that at max power (going by uninjured full power Frieza being 200 million, according to a tough-to-find guidebook which stated that 120 million was Frieza's post-Spirit bomb full power only)

What? How have I never heard of this?

[Cabba]

The major inconsistency is that you can fight at 100%, prior to mastering the form. Vegeta states so himself. And it's not as if the moment you turn SSJB you can't maintain it's complete power because you can, for the very least a short period of time. So it's not as if SSJB burns through your energy instantly. You just can't maintain it at 100% too long without mastering the form. This would mean that SSJ Goku Black, after his first Zenkai is very much comparable to Merged Zamasu considering Vegeta fought hiM at 100% of the power of SSJB, or very least, incredibly close to the 100% power of SSJB.

That would mean the power hierarchy for the arc would be something like this:
SSJB Vegetto
Merged Zamasu
SSJB Goku
Base Vegetto
Merged Zamasu
SSJ Goku Black (Post Zenkai)
SSJB Vegeta (Post second ROSAT)
SSJR Goku Black
SSJB Goku
SSJR Goku Black
SSJ Goku Black (Post Zenkai)
SSJB Vegeta (Pre second ROSAT)
SSJG Goku/Vegeta
Future Trunks
Zamasu

But Goku also does mention while on SSG Vegeta conserves blue power and maximizes it by instantly releasing it in a explosion of power. Maximize being the key word here
Now that i rechecked it, Vegeta does not explain how it works, it was only Goku. I still havent read the new chapter (I'm about too) is that where you got bolded from?

There are only 3 possible explanations
1. That short period Goku said means a few seconds or split seconds before SSB starts draining and thus being 100% last so little it cant be use in battle, before you land a hit the energy already started draining while you head towards the enemy
2. Complete SSB and to a lesser degree Instant switching between SSG/SBB allows you to build up SSB energy like focused/concentrated energy vs diffuse energy on previous SSB, something that was never possible before. To put it in simpler terms but not quite accurate you go beyond the 100% that was possible using SSB by focusing/concentrating the energy
3. and less likely that Senzu dont recover God ki, that it needs regular time to regenerate

Saying Black SS2 was the same power as merged Zamasu is silly, because you are then taking things to literally to come up with a unlikely conclusion that was not implied at any point, also if that were the case Black would just go back to his SS2 form since he realized Vegeta was switching forms

[Lord Beerus]

The major inconsistency is that you can fight at 100%, prior to mastering the form. Vegeta states so himself. And it's not as if the moment you turn SSJB you can't maintain it's complete power because you can, for the very least a short period of time. So it's not as if SSJB burns through your energy instantly. You just can't maintain it at 100% too long without mastering the form. This would mean that SSJ Goku Black, after his first Zenkai is very much comparable to Merged Zamasu considering Vegeta fought hiM at 100% of the power of SSJB, or very least, incredibly close to the 100% power of SSJB.

That would mean the power hierarchy for the arc would be something like this:
SSJB Vegetto
Merged Zamasu
SSJB Goku
Base Vegetto
Merged Zamasu
SSJ Goku Black (Post Zenkai)
SSJB Vegeta (Post second ROSAT)
SSJR Goku Black
SSJB Goku
SSJR Goku Black
SSJ Goku Black (Post Zenkai)
SSJB Vegeta (Pre second ROSAT)
SSJG Goku/Vegeta
Future Trunks
Zamasu

But Goku also does mention while on SSG Vegeta conserves blue power and maximizes it by instantly releasing it in a explosion of power. Maximize being the key word here
Now that i rechecked it, Vegeta does not explain how it works, it was only Goku. I still havent read the new chapter (I'm about too) is that where you got bolded from?

There are only 3 possible explanations
1. That short period Goku said means a few seconds or split seconds before SSB starts draining and thus being 100% last so little it cant be use in battle, before you land a hit the energy already started draining while you head towards the enemy
2. Complete SSB and to a lesser degree Instant switching between SSG/SBB allows you to build up SSB energy like focused/concentrated energy vs diffuse energy on previous SSB, something that was never possible before. To put it in simpler terms but not quite accurate you go beyond the 100% that was possible using SSB by focusing/concentrating the energy
3. and less likely that Senzu dont recover God ki, that it needs regular time to regenerate

Saying Black SS2 was the same power as merged Zamasu is silly, because you are then taking things to literally to come up with a unlikely conclusion that was not implied at any point, also if that were the case Black would just go back to his SS2 form since he realized Vegeta was switching forms

Vegeta says you can fight at the full power of SSJB but for only a short while. Here's what is stated in the manga:
Vegeta: "Blue's weakness is that it's full power lasts only for a short while. He faced that weakness and overcame it."
Future Trunks: "So that means... right now, Goku is...
Vegeta: "Goku is continuously fighting at 100 percent."

There's nothing to imply at all that fighting at 100% of the power of SSJB grants you more strength. It's just that Goku can fight at 100% of the power of SSJB longer than Vegeta supposedly can. It seriously muddies the waters considering that Vegeta, for all intents and purposes, has fought at 100% of the power of SSJB against SSJ Goku Black and lost. Does this mean that SSJ Goku Black after his zenkai is as strong, or very nearly as strong, as Merged Zamasu? Because that certainly would be strongly implied to be case. And if so, this would have to mean that SSJR Goku Black technically is stronger than Merged Zamasu. And that's impossible.

It should also be noted that Goku comment, in regards to Vegeta interchanging between SSJG and SSJB to fight SSJR Goku Black, that Vegeta's power doesn't drop at all. So in those brief instances when Vegeta changes in SSJB to fight SSJR Goku his power doesn't drop at all as a SSJB. He fighting at 100%. So obviously your strength as SSJB doesn't instantly burn at still stay clocked in at 100% for short period time, even it it's very briefly for when you power up into the form itself.

[dbgtFO]

Frieza was about 1k times stronger than that at max power (going by uninjured full power Frieza being 200 million, according to a tough-to-find guidebook which stated that 120 million was Frieza's post-Spirit bomb full power only)

What? How have I never heard of this?

Judge for yourself
[spoiler]it's obviously a joke [/spoiler]

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It's times like this where I appreciate that the anime doesn't go out of its way to explain things in-depth some of the time.

With SSB in the RoF Arc and Universe 6/7 Tournament, all we needed to know was that the form surpassed SSG and had great Ki control. And with the Future Trunks Arc, all we needed to know was that it was made even stronger with training and rage-boosts. It's simple and to the point. Is it great writing? No.

But after seeing all this recent debate over how things work in the manga, I can appreciate how simple the anime lays things out.