GT vs. Super: Which is more damaging to the series' image?

[TheGreatness25]

I don't think that either damaged anything. I think that when we throw around words like "damage" in terms of the series's reputation, that we're going into it with a predetermined notion that the reputation used to be good, but now it's not. Are we talking about the fans' view of the series's reputation, or are we talking about its reputation in mainstream media?

If we're talking about Dragon Ball's reputation in mainstream media, I think that it's exactly the same. To those who were not fans of the series or watched/read it so intently, it's exactly the same -- fighting, over-the-top power, yelling, "fireballs" or "laser beams," and a cast of strange-looking characters.

To the fans, I'd say that the reputation is exactly the same. I know that this is puzzling, but hear me out. I don't know too many people that became super fans of the Dragon Ball series as adults. I think that the majority of fans -- at least from my experience -- were exposed to the series as teenagers or even as kids. Well, to teenagers and kids, Super seems to be doing a bang-up job. Thus, to that demographic, the reputation is intact.

I think that instead of damaging anyone's reputation, Super took off a lot of people's rose-colored nostalgia glasses and possibly for the first time in Dragon Ball's existence, the now older, wiser fan can see all of the problems with the new release. I think that now, for the first time ever, a lot of the older, wiser fans see Super as a "cash cow" and a "toy seller." Well, what was Dragon Ball Z? I don't think that many fans look at DB or DBZ as cash cows or toy sellers, but they were. They pushed their merchandise too, but the only difference now is that it's so much easier to do it. I think that for the first time ever, the older, wiser fan is confronted with the reality that their beloved series might not have been made out of love or passion, but rather, out of wanting to make money. But of course it was, of course it was made to make money.

All of the problems that people pin on Super, existed with Z. Animation? There was plenty in Z that looked absolutely terrible. Pacing? Super is too quick, but DB and DBZ at times were painfully slow. "Retcons?" Well, it is 20 years later and they chose such a strange place to pick up. Dragon Ball Z also took Dragon Ball and made it practically unrecognizable just due to the revaluation that Goku was an alien and now there's this whole other universe of aliens and monsters that we never knew about. That's exactly what Super did, by the way. I'm sure that if we had a break between Dragon Ball and Z came out 20 years later, those fans having grown up with Dragon Ball might also be a bit pissed off that Dragon Ball's established status quo has been challenged.

The problem is not with the series. The problem is that we grew the hell up. The problem is that we have DB and DBZ embedded in us and don't want to let it go and feel like the new stuff is subpar. But that's how everything is. People who grew up with the 60's Batman think that everything after that is subpar, People who grew up with The Animated Series think that everything else is subpar. And I bet you that people who grew up with Dark Knight feel that everything else is subpar as well. That's how it is. We don't belong in the same generation as the audience for Super. As for those who are growing up with Super now, I sincerely don't think that they feel such strong negativity toward it. That's how life works. And to those that grew up with Kai and now are watching Super, even that has over a 5 year gap between Kai and Super, so that's plenty of time for a kid to go from 10 to 15, making that kid older and wiser. But I'm not so sure how many kids who grew up with Kai have such a distaste for Super.

Now, that's my take on Super... let's talk about GT.

GT didn't damage anything. GT was a flash in the pan. GT was rushed straight out of the gate and there was no way that it could compete with its predecessor. GT hit the reset button -- its characters were older, there was no more conflict on Earth, etc. Z never really had a reset button. It started small and built big, then cooled off a little, then built back up, then cooled off just a tad, then built even higher. GT literally started from scratch and it's really hard to put that up against the latter half of DBZ. GT would fare much better against the first episodes of Dragon Ball or even the first episodes of Dragon Ball Z when the series was just building from scratch too.

In the end, lots of people "hated" GT and really, the hate took on a life of its own. So many people "hate" GT without ever fully having watched it or experienced it. That's fair and that's just basic human psychology. But in the end, GT was just something that happened so long ago. GT never tipped the needle one way or another and I cannot say that it did anything for the series's image.

In the end, we are all a product of our childhood. What we were exposed to as kids is probably what's going to stay with us forever. There's a new generation of Dragon Ball fan -- the fan that's being introduced to the series through Super. And I would be willing to bet that today, in five years, even in 15 years, they will look back at Super the way that most of us look back at Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z. It's just a series that passed us by, and that's okay. But as far as reputation is concerned, nothing damaged that reputation at all. It's just us old school fans who wish it was the way it was when we know it never will be.

[Bansho64]

Honestly? I'm going with Super. IMO, Super's just got way too many cons in it that really crap on the previous material that we've gotten and changes a lot of outlooks at the franchise as a whole.

But I'm not so sure how many kids who grew up with Kai have such a distaste for Super.

I'm one of them. And, I can also say first hand that there are a lot em too. There's plenty that do like Super too though.

[TheGreatness25]

Honestly? I'm going with Super. IMO, Super's just got way too many cons in it that really crap on the previous material that we've gotten and changes a lot of outlooks at the franchise as a whole.

But I'm not so sure how many kids who grew up with Kai have such a distaste for Super.

I'm one of them. And, I can also say first hand that there are a lot em too. There's plenty that do like Super too though.

May I ask you how old you are? I mean, of course it's always a matter of taste, but I don't think that we should discount the fact that the first episode of Kai aired in 2010 in the U.S. I mean, that's seven years before Super aired in the U.S. -- five or six years later if you watched the Japanese version weekly. That's plenty of time to let Kai creep its way into that nostalgia bank and with Super being so different, for the Kai nostalgia to pop up and say, "No! This is bull--!"

[Bansho64]

May I ask you how old you are? I mean, of course it's always a matter of taste, but I don't think that we should discount the fact that the first episode of Kai aired in 2010 in the U.S. I mean, that's seven years before Super aired in the U.S. -- five or six years later if you watched the Japanese version weekly. That's plenty of time to let Kai creep its way into that nostalgia bank and with Super being so different, for the Kai nostalgia to pop up and say, "No! This is bull--!"

I'm 15. I got into DB in general back in 2011 with Nicktoons re-airing Kai and, in later years, their re-airings of the movies and specials.

As for the nostalgia argument, I'm sure there's something to be said there for some of the more extreme complaints, but I personally disagree with a lot of it.

[TheGreatness25]

I mean getting into Kai at 9 years old... that just might have gotten that nostalgia spot in you. And even if not, Super is a great departure from Kai and you might like Kai a lot more, but to those who are exposed to Super as their first real dose of Dragon Ball, I don't think that they look at it the same way.

[8000 Saiyan]

While I respect everyone's opinions, I'll go with GT. Super has had some bad writing, but not on the level of GT. I much rather have the characters having some relevance than having no relevance.

[Bansho64]

I mean getting into Kai at 9 years old... that just might have gotten that nostalgia spot in you. And even if not, Super is a great departure from Kai and you might like Kai a lot more, but to those who are exposed to Super as their first real dose of Dragon Ball, I don't think that they look at it the same way.

I was actually 10 (was born in 2001, my birthday's in the summer. I got into the series during later that year), but even then, what you're saying is reaching a LOT.

Like, to me, it sounds like someone can't get into the series no more than one or two years before watching Super for them not to have nostalgia and have legitimate and unbiased criticisms for it at all. And I don't think that should have to be the case at all.

[TheGreatness25]

You think so, huh? You don't think that to you the difference between 10 and 15 years old is significant? You don't think that you changed at all in how you feel toward something? You think that if you never saw Kai and someone showed you Super when you were 10 that you wouldn't feel for it what you felt for Kai? That's reaching too.

[Bansho64]

You think so, huh? You don't think that to you the difference between 10 and 15 years old is significant? You don't think that you changed at all in how you feel toward something? You think that if you never saw Kai and someone showed you Super when you were 10 that you wouldn't feel for it what you felt for Kai? That's reaching too.

To be honest, I probably wouldn't. I've never been one to like starting in the middle of something instead of starting from the top, so I probably would've gone back and watched DB and DBZ and then watched Super. And I still don't think I would've liked it much.

You seem to be working under the presumption that kids will like anything. Which is something that's not true at all. I didn't like a lot of shows when I younger, and I still don't like most of em now.

[ABED]

Kids are less discerning, but they still won't watch just anything.

[Overlord78]

Both are shit series but I'll go with Super.

[PeanutSaiyan]

Honestly? I'm going with Super. IMO, Super's just got way too many cons in it that really crap on the previous material that we've gotten and changes a lot of outlooks at the franchise as a whole.

But I'm not so sure how many kids who grew up with Kai have such a distaste for Super.

I'm one of them. And, I can also say first hand that there are a lot em too. There's plenty that do like Super too though.

May I ask you how old you are? I mean, of course it's always a matter of taste, but I don't think that we should discount the fact that the first episode of Kai aired in 2010 in the U.S. I mean, that's seven years before Super aired in the U.S. -- five or six years later if you watched the Japanese version weekly. That's plenty of time to let Kai creep its way into that nostalgia bank and with Super being so different, for the Kai nostalgia to pop up and say, "No! This is bull--!"

What I really don't understand with this fan base is how/why are you so quick to label dislike for Super "nostalgia?" It's obviously a very troubled production with a very weak foundation. Yet anytime someone points that out it's "nostalgia"? Because he saw Kai at 9 it "creeped its way into that nostalgia bank?" That is so..ludicrous. Maybe after watching Kai he saw a definitive downturn in quality?

You are not only reaching, but blaming some ethereal force "hidden" in people's minds for their objectively correct point of view that the series has suffered a massive downgrade in quality, thus turning them off.

[TheGreatness25]

No, of course kids wouldn't watch just anything, but Super is popular and is making a lot of money, right? So it's hitting its target audience just right.

You're right, I'm sure that all of you would absolutely hate Super as kids too. And I'm saying that Z has its nostalgia factor because it too, is riddled with issues. But whatever, I guess I'm the only one that thinks nostalgia's a powerful thing -- you're all obviously way above being influenced by nostalgia.

[Basaku]

This isn't even a question - GT. It doesn't mean it was the worst thing ever, but it's widely seen as being subpar/weak enough to bring the initial run of the series to an end and thus its popularity for many years and that's obviously the opposite of reviving the franchise as Super's doing, regardless of the actual quality

[floofychan333]

GT by far. Almost everyone seems to like Super, though it gets some criticism, while very few people like GT. Even my non-DB fan friends know that GT sucked and they can't tell Goku and Bardock apart.

[MajinMan]

Neither "hurt" the series' image. If someone really wanted, they can ignore GT and Super and stick with the manga. The original work will always be there.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Neither "hurt" the series' image. If someone really wanted, they can ignore GT and Super and stick with the manga. The original work will always be there.

That's not really relevant to the reputation. The vast majority of people aren't going to pretend that certain material doesn't exist just to improve their idea of what the series is.

[PeanutSaiyan]

No, of course kids wouldn't watch just anything, but Super is popular and is making a lot of money, right? So it's hitting its target audience just right.

You're right, I'm sure that all of you would absolutely hate Super as kids too. And I'm saying that Z has its nostalgia factor because it too, is riddled with issues. But whatever, I guess I'm the only one that thinks nostalgia's a powerful thing -- you're all obviously way above being influenced by nostalgia.

Wow, what a condescending remark. This might blow your mind.. maybe, just maybe we're educated consumers that selectively choose whether or not to invest our time in a product? Depending on our standards of quality etc?

I'll give you an example: My friends and I are huge Pokemon fans. Going to back to red/blue. And while our enthusiasm for the series has died down over the years, there is still trailer sharing and "maybe I'll get this one.." every time the game comes out. This was in part due to the original anime (which was one big merchandising commercial). Now I can't tell you that we'd all sit down and watch it again, but we might have a good time. Good ol' nostalgia. Unfortunately the show got pretty bad as time went on and was dropped from our collective interests even though we do pick up the games every now and then. And then Pokemon origins came out and, wow. The quality of it blew us away. They obviously put a lot of care into the show and it was a really fresh take on an age old series. Did we get back into Pokemon? Not really, but we definitely enjoyed the mini-series. There was obviously a lot of love put into that show. The two shows were wildly different, yet still caught the same essence.

I wish I could say the same for Super, but just because we're not willing to watch mindless garbage harboring the Dragonball logo as much as someone else, does not make us "nostalgic".

When the show's story, characters, and overall production takes a gigantic step back for the sake of pandering, it's not nostalgia that stops us from liking it but instead our actual lack of enjoyment from watching such a hollow cash cow that quite frankly seems to be made by people who are not fans of the original.

[Lord Beerus]

Neither GT or Super hurt the image of the series in any sense. Both shows take place in a time period in-universe that really have no bearing on the plot of the manga and and how you perceive the nature of the original animes. GT certainly take a good amount of blame for putting the franchise on ice for a few years, that can't be denied though.

[sintzu]

DB and DBZ go in such different directions that they almost feel like two different IPs.

That's one of Toriyama's strong points that Super and GT couldn't do, change everything up while also being part of the previous story. DB&Z couldn't be more different from each other and I think people expected Super and GT to be their own thing as well but instead they played everything safe.