Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Marlowe89]

I mostly place them into such ranges for simplicity's sake, and take into account RoF, as well as never obviously retconning characters downward except in the most extreme cases, like SS Goku not being as strong as SSG Goku, Freeza's power differences between forms not being massive anymore, etc.

That way, more streamlined power levels can be created that take out a lot of the guesswork.

I wouldn't say my placement of the characters is any less streamlined or simplistic than yours, although I think we disagree as to how strong base/SS/SS2/SS3 Goku actually is. I'm also not assuming there have ever been any retcons. That's okay though -- I think there have been too many debates regarding the current power of base Goku and Vegeta as it is, so there's probably no need to kick that horse anymore.

I'm just saying that putting Piccolo on base Gohan's level hinges on some pretty major assumptions itself and doesn't exactly mesh with Piccolo's own feats during his match against Gohan. He should be much stronger than that.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I mostly place them into such ranges for simplicity's sake, and take into account RoF, as well as never obviously retconning characters downward except in the most extreme cases, like SS Goku not being as strong as SSG Goku, Freeza's power differences between forms not being massive anymore, etc.

That way, more streamlined power levels can be created that take out a lot of the guesswork.

I wouldn't say my placement of the characters is any less streamlined than yours, although I think we disagree as to how strong base/SS/SS2/SS3 Goku actually is. That's okay though -- I think there have been too many debates regarding the current power of base Goku and Vegeta as it is, so there's probably no need to kick that horse anymore.

I'm just saying that putting Piccolo on base Gohan's level hinges on some pretty major assumptions itself and doesn't exactly mesh with Piccolo's own feats during his match against Gohan. He should be much stronger than that.

I meant base Gohan AFTER he was re-trained by Piccolo. It's my personal belief that he managed to get up to Piccolo's level in base form and has retained Ultimate as a multiplier, with said multiplier being able to put him on a level that could possibly compete with SSB Goku if he's equal to base Goku who's equal to Piccolo and Slim Buu, with this range being above SS3 Gotenks and below the original Ultimate Gohan.

Again, just my own streamlining of the power levels for simplicity's sake without assuming certain characters are retconned down to Buu Saga levels.

[AvatarReiko]

Curious. Which form is stronger? Goku's Mastered SSJ Blue from the Super Manga or SSJ Blue kk X10? I am guessing the former since MSSJ Blue was able to contend with fused Zamasu

[Marlowe89]

I meant base Gohan AFTER he was re-trained by Piccolo. It's my personal belief that he managed to get up to Piccolo's level in base form and has retained Ultimate as a multiplier, with said multiplier being able to put him on a level that could possibly compete with SSB Goku if he's equal to base Goku who's equal to Piccolo and Slim Buu, with this range being above SS3 Gotenks and below the original Ultimate Gohan.

I know what you meant, and I'm saying it relies on extreme assumptions that run contrary to what we were actually shown. Super Saiyan Goku was fighting evenly with Super Saiyan Gohan during a match where Gohan specifically asked Goku not to hold back, and this was before he re-unlocked Ultimate -- much later, after Piccolo's training, we see base Goku and base Gohan fighting evenly again. His Ultimate form might have improved (and do recall that we're all still slippery on the details as to what Ultimate is supposed to be in terms of its mechanics, exactly), but it's unlikely that his base strength grew literally 100 times stronger from training. The match between Goku and Slim Buu was nothing more than a test to gauge Buu's ability to knock Goku out of the ring, not a serious fight, so it shouldn't be used as evidence of anything.

Again, just my own streamlining of the power levels for simplicity's sake without assuming certain characters are retconned down to Buu Saga levels.

And again, I really didn't want to beat a dead horse but that largely depends on the dreaded two base vs. one base discussion that's been dominating the thread since almost its inception. In the former case, one doesn't have to assume that characters were retconned down to Buu Saga levels if the idea is that they were never above them to begin with.

You said you were taking RoF into account, but if you did that, you'd have to assume that base Goku is actually stronger than he was as a Super Saiyan God against Beerus, since nobody could see Goku's movements during his fight against Final Form Frieza.

[ZombieVito]

I'm inclined to believe that Piccolo is now stronger than Dabura was back in the Buu arc.

Piccolo murders any SSJ2 tier character from the Boo arc.

Going by my numbers he should also be able to fight Pure Boo and possibly beat him.

[LowRyder2005]

Any streamlined approach has (unfortunately) the problem of crushing against a complete brick wall of nonsense, courtesy of Super's sloppy writing and lack of foresight. I edited out the post from one pages ago with some of the most glaring issues, but - in short - Gohan's standing in comparison to Goku's strength even before Piccolo's single training session in ep. 94 is an inescapable monkey-wrench.



tl;dr
Basically, if we assume that Super Buu and Gotenks are more or less equal and Buutenks is around two times stronger than SS3 Gotenks, Super's writing and promotional material plainly contradict themselves in regards to Gohan's strength. He's advertised and portrayed as having "less strength" (even more literally, promotional material uses a phrasing akin to "he trains with Piccolo in order to regain his lost strength"), while as a Super Saiyan 2 he already needs to have more strength than usual.

The other glaring problems are: Super Saiyan Goku vs. Super Saiyan Gohan in the spar match. Goku goes Super Saiyan, then powers down to some level vastly below his regular base's power (something like six, ten, or dozens of times weaker if you apply the Daizenshuu multipliers religiously) against Gohan and still proceeds to get the tar beaten out the vastly inferior Super Saiyan Gohan.
Then we have Gohan. He would need to somehow become at least about four or five times stronger than everyone in Z off-screen in-between the Buu saga and BOG, proceed to slack off, almost forgetting how to turn Super Saiyan, while still being overwhelmingly stronger than the Goku and Vegeta who had constantly trained in the Buu arc - again, four or five times.

Lastly, do note that in any passage there's some extreme form of low-balling: wanna disregard the multipliers? Wanna say Super Saiyan Gohan is just Base Goku + 1? Still doesn't add up.

The diagram above also ends up with Piccolo becoming at least about a thousand of times stronger than his old self from the Buu saga (who was inferior to the East Kaioshin of all people and was training routinely already on his own), which other than being kind of absurd, is not really something Super tried to portray in any shape or form. Well, I wouldn't go as far as saying Piccolo is still behind Kaioshin, obviously... but I'd say that even arguing he got overall two or three times from his training these days sounds generous.

[ZombieVito]

The other glaring problems are: Super Saiyan Goku vs. Super Saiyan Gohan in the spar match. Goku goes Super Saiyan, then powers down to some level vastly below his regular base's power (something like dozens of times weaker) against Gohan and still proceeds to get the tar beaten out the vastly inferior Super Saiyan Gohan.
Then we have Gohan. He would need to somehow become at least about four or five times stronger than everyone in Z off-screen in-between the Buu saga and BOG, proceed to slack off, almost forgetting how to turn Super Saiyan, while still being overwhelmingly stronger than the Goku and Vegeta who had constantly trained in the Buu arc - again, four or five times.

The diagram above also ends up with Piccolo becoming at least about a thousand of times stronger than his old self from the Buu saga (who was inferior to the East Kaioshin of all people and was training routinely already on his own), which other than being kind of absurd, is not really something Super tried to portray in any shape or form. Well, I wouldn't go as far as saying Piccolo is still behind Kaioshin, obviously... but I'd say that even arguing he got overall two or three times from his training these days sounds generous.

Thankfully we have Saiyan beyond God that fixes these problems.

[Bullza]

Curious. Which form is stronger? Goku's Mastered SSJ Blue from the Super Manga or SSJ Blue kk X10? I am guessing the former since MSSJ Blue was able to contend with fused Zamasu

Well if we assume that the Merged Zamasu with the Halo from the anime is equal to the Merged Zamasu from the manga then ideally it should go

SSJB Goku Kaioken (currently) > Merged Zamasu = Complete SSJB Goku > SSJB Goku Kaioken x10 (from the Tournament)

[LowRyder2005]

The other glaring problems are: Super Saiyan Goku vs. Super Saiyan Gohan in the spar match. Goku goes Super Saiyan, then powers down to some level vastly below his regular base's power (something like dozens of times weaker) against Gohan and still proceeds to get the tar beaten out the vastly inferior Super Saiyan Gohan.
Then we have Gohan. He would need to somehow become at least about four or five times stronger than everyone in Z off-screen in-between the Buu saga and BOG, proceed to slack off, almost forgetting how to turn Super Saiyan, while still being overwhelmingly stronger than the Goku and Vegeta who had constantly trained in the Buu arc - again, four or five times.

The diagram above also ends up with Piccolo becoming at least about a thousand of times stronger than his old self from the Buu saga (who was inferior to the East Kaioshin of all people and was training routinely already on his own), which other than being kind of absurd, is not really something Super tried to portray in any shape or form. Well, I wouldn't go as far as saying Piccolo is still behind Kaioshin, obviously... but I'd say that even arguing he got overall two or three times from his training these days sounds generous.

Thankfully we have Saiyan beyond God that fixes these problems.

I feel like it's pretty darn clear that the base forms from back there are something incomparable to whatever we have today. So yeah, they were "Saiyan beyond God(s)", with an abnormally high power at least at that point; they were meant to reflect the status at the end of the BOG/ROF movies - and that's just how those forms were advertised.

Then they had a filler arc with Gotenks which was again meant to reflect that; then something happened and they - directly or indirectly - forsake those traces from the movie material. I'd deem probable that Toriyama simple wrote the synopsis of the Future Trunks Arc without remembering or feeling the need to acknowledge that part of the movie's events. The rest is just a domino effect; still inexcusable since for the most part is arguably unintended, though, and fans should definitely start to pay mind to Super tripping on itself on such important details.

(I'm still following the assumption we won't see Goku suddenly transforming "Ultimate Gohan"-style again, obviously. Anything goes).

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Honestly, BoG is the main wrinkle to everything.

However, when Gohan's situation came to light in RoF, it gave me the pieces I needed to formulate a solid hypothesis after some time passed. Bear in mind, these comparisons are merely for the sake of understanding my personal viewpoint on the power-scaling.

Basically, Goku and Gohan were in the same basic situation. Gohan had unlocked Ultimate, a level far beyond his power beforehand, just like Goku did with SSG. However, both of these powers expired; the Ultimate state was lost due to a lack of training and warrior discipline, and SSG expired naturally. However, both members of the Son family held onto some of that power as their own.

If one believes that Gohan was indeed equal or superior to Piccolo in base form in the wake of Freeza's return, then that would mean that he still had some of his Ultimate power, but couldn't draw it all out. Similarly, I believe that Goku is the same way; he still made some of SSG's power his own, but can't use it all. Both have gone through additional training, becoming stronger overall but not able to reach the level of power of their unlocked forms.

Thus, we come to Ultimate and SSB. Both are the full expression of one's potential power, and both needed to be unlocked with training and discipline. Goku and Gohan, after getting access to new realms of power individually, make use of these states to access the full extent of the power they've tasted.

[avasatu]

Where is Cabba, Caulifla, Kale, Jiren etc?

why is SSB Vegeta higher than SSB Goku?

Shouldn't Gohan be higher given that he unlocked his Ultimate form again?

Where is Tien, Roshi, Yamcha, Goten, Trunks?

Why is Base Black so high.. when he fought on par with SSJ2 Goku at the beginning? actually given that DB tends to throw stronger opponents later in the series, I dont see any evidence that Black would be higher than Toppo.. or even 17

Thanks for the reply.

1) I hate the U6 Saiyans, so I didn't put them on here, but maybe I will. Jiren I don't quite know enough about yet, but I suppose I can squeeze him in, but it'll be pretty head-canony.

2) SSB Vegeta was greater than SSB Goku at the end of the Black arc, and Vegeta has gone into the Time Chamber twice since, while Goku has not been shown or implied to be doing anything other than regular training and recruiting since. I'm open to Goku being equal or stronger here, but I'd like to hear your evidence for why that should be the case.

3) Gohan proved nothing to me other than he was stronger than SS2 Goku, SS3 at the max. I was not convinced he was Blue level whatsoever, whereas Goku, without being asked, transformed into SSB vs 17. I will reevaluate this one again when I get more info (or if you reply with your evidence), but I like that one how it is for now.

4) I hate Tien, Roshi, Yamcha, Goten, and Trunks big time. While I may add the U6 Saiyans and Jiren onto the scale, I won't add those scrubs . Maybe if Tien/Roshi wreck face in the tournie.

5) Base Black was incredibly strong during his second showing, managing to completely resist a massive flurry from SSB Vegeta, and even counterattack with some good force. The only real question is: is he stronger than 17/Gohan? I don't have him higher than Toppo.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

I'm inclined to believe that Piccolo is now stronger than Dabura was back in the Buu arc.

Since I consider Dabura to be no stronger than 50% Perfect Cell (talking about the Cell whom Goku fought, not Super Perfect), this is a relatively easy conclusion. Had it been SSJ1 Vegeta rather than rusted up poor old untrained Gohan against Dabura, he'd been defeated in merely seconds.

[buutenks]

Toei always screwed up the scaling by inflating Goku's PL even when they had Toriyama's manga to follow. So imagine when they get a poorly detail outline and they follow that. Ofc Pl will be a mess.

Toyotaru, IMO, also added his own stuff. One thing comes to mind is Goku and Vegeta losing their gigantic power in base. I suspect Toyotaru changed it, since he knew it would make everyone and their mother to OP down the line, while Toei didnt care.

[TheMikado]

Any streamlined approach has (unfortunately) the problem of crushing against a complete brick wall of nonsense, courtesy of Super's sloppy writing and lack of foresight. I edited out the post from one pages ago with some of the most glaring issues, but - in short - Gohan's standing in comparison to Goku's strength even before Piccolo's single training session in ep. 94 is an inescapable monkey-wrench.



tl;dr
Basically, if we assume that Super Buu and Gotenks are more or less equal and Buutenks is around two times stronger than SS3 Gotenks, Super's writing and promotional material plainly contradict themselves in regards to Gohan's strength. He's advertised and portrayed as having "less strength" (even more literally, promotional material uses a phrasing akin to "he trains with Piccolo in order to regain his lost strength"), while as a Super Saiyan 2 he already needs to have more strength than usual.

The other glaring problems are: Super Saiyan Goku vs. Super Saiyan Gohan in the spar match. Goku goes Super Saiyan, then powers down to some level vastly below his regular base's power (something like six, ten, or dozens of times weaker if you apply the Daizenshuu multipliers religiously) against Gohan and still proceeds to get the tar beaten out the vastly inferior Super Saiyan Gohan.
Then we have Gohan. He would need to somehow become at least about four or five times stronger than everyone in Z off-screen in-between the Buu saga and BOG, proceed to slack off, almost forgetting how to turn Super Saiyan, while still being overwhelmingly stronger than the Goku and Vegeta who had constantly trained in the Buu arc - again, four or five times.

Lastly, do note that in any passage there's some extreme form of low-balling: wanna disregard the multipliers? Wanna say Super Saiyan Gohan is just Base Goku + 1? Still doesn't add up.

The diagram above also ends up with Piccolo becoming at least about a thousand of times stronger than his old self from the Buu saga (who was inferior to the East Kaioshin of all people and was training routinely already on his own), which other than being kind of absurd, is not really something Super tried to portray in any shape or form. Well, I wouldn't go as far as saying Piccolo is still behind Kaioshin, obviously... but I'd say that even arguing he got overall two or three times from his training these days sounds generous.

Is it possible to sig images??? Because if it is may I use this?!?!?

[Bullza]

New episode. I think it's gonna be quite hard to keep track of everything going on if all the episodes are like this. From what I can remember.

Base Goku was on par with the stealthy guy from Universe 4. In the preview for the next episode he's fighting Bergamo again.

Basil who should be around Base level beat that one fairy.

Android 18 was on par with the female Pride Trooper.

Surprisingly Magetta and Toppo clashed fists, you'd think Toppo was enormously more powerful than him but most likely he, just like the others, wouldn't be using his full power from the get go.

Vegeta turned Super Saiyan to fight that blue monster thing which I think we saw him pounding away at in this episode.

[Marlowe89]

Well, that preview certainly caught my eye. Could it be Toei's current visual representation for Saiyan beyond God? Or maybe a new form? Or Something different altogether?

[Zamasu55]

Base Goku (no God ki) = Ganos.

Basil >= Napapa from U10.

Basil > Riribeu from U10.

18 = Girl Pride Trooper.

Final form Freeza >>> U3's bird-like robot.

That's it I think.

[Bullza]

Well, that preview certainly caught my eye. Could it be Toei's current visual representation for Saiyan beyond God? Or maybe a new form? Or Something different altogether?

I doubt it would be Saiyan Beyond God because in the same preview you do see Goku turn into a Super Saiyan. Not that it couldn't be but I'd guess all the fighting in Base would happen first and then he'd turn into a Super Saiyan somewhere near the end of it all. I think they'd save any new form for someone else too.

A few people on Youtube are speculating that it's Goku not letting his Ki leak out so that Bergamo doesn't get stronger from it.

[Marlowe89]

I doubt it would be Saiyan Beyond God because in the same preview you do see Goku turn into a Super Saiyan. Not that it couldn't be but I'd guess all the fighting in Base would happen first and then he'd turn into a Super Saiyan somewhere near the end of it all. I think they'd save any new form for someone else too.

A few people on Youtube are speculating that it's Goku not letting his Ki leak out so that Bergamo doesn't get stronger from it.

Good point, although we don't yet know whether Goku was using Super Saiyan against Bergamo specifically. You're probably right though -- I did notice that Bergamo's size wasn't increasing, so it's most likely a ki shield or something of that nature.

[MagmonKai]

I figured it's a ki shield too. It looked eerily similar to what Vegetto used when he got absorbed by Buuhan.