Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

[HeroR]

-snip-

But Super being mediocre is a subject statement, not objective. The same with saying Super has objectively bad animation since even Ajay as critical as they are wouldn't call Super's animation objectively bad. Maybe lackluster or mediocre, but not bad. Objectively bad would be Episode 5 for being incomplete in the original broadcast, and Episodes 24-26 for their terrible art. I would even give you the first half of Episode 33 as objectively bad.

[A Man named RJ]

-snip-

But Super being mediocre is a subject statement, not objective. The same with saying Super has objectively bad animation since even Ajay as critical as they are wouldn't call Super's animation objectively bad. Maybe lackluster or mediocre, but not bad. Objectively bad would be Episode 5 for being incomplete in the original broadcast, and Episodes 24-26 for their terrible art. I would even give you the first half of Episode 33 as objectively bad.

So bad animation, a ton of potholes and blatant fanservice, but it cant be bad because "no such thing as objectivity" Well shit, i guess Tommy Wisseau's The room can be called a masterpiece and That one Movie,Foodfight? I can call it animated Piccaso and you cant challenge me on it because it's just my opinion. Boys of Valor? CITIZEN KANE TIER!

But I'm curious, words like "lackluster" or "mediocre" should both fall under the same "subjectivity" criteria you set, but they dont because they're words YOU want me to use. So this leads me to believe you're performing bad apologetics, inconsistently.

I'm not going any further than this. I direct you to these two videos
https://youtu.be/3dIX4ys7p30
https://youtu.be/H4JLblkSleA

[HeroR]

-snip-

But Super being mediocre is a subject statement, not objective. The same with saying Super has objectively bad animation since even Ajay as critical as they are wouldn't call Super's animation objectively bad. Maybe lackluster or mediocre, but not bad. Objectively bad would be Episode 5 for being incomplete in the original broadcast, and Episodes 24-26 for their terrible art. I would even give you the first half of Episode 33 as objectively bad.

So bad animation, a ton of potholes and blatant fanservice, but it cant be bad because "no such thing as objectivity" Well shit, i guess Tommy Wisseau's The room can be called a masterpiece and That one Movie,Foodfight? I can call it animated Piccaso and you cant challenge me on it because it's just my opinion. Boys of Valor? CITIZEN KANE TIER!

But I'm curious, words like "lackluster" or "mediocre" should both fall under the same "subjectivity" criteria you set, but they dont because they're words YOU want me to use. So this leads me to believe you're performing bad apologetics, inconsistently.

I'm not going any further than this. I direct you to these two videos
https://youtu.be/3dIX4ys7p30
https://youtu.be/H4JLblkSleA

Fan service isn't automatically objectively bad and the animation of Super haven't been objectively bad in over a year. Dragon Ball also have plot holes in the dozens and no one calls it objectively bad.

Mediocre and lackluster can be subjective true, but it fits better than saying "Super's animation is objectively bad" when to be frank, that's a big lie. You can say "I don't like Super's animation" and still get your point across without trying to pretend to be objective.

Never saw any of those movies, so I can't comment. Also, you can be objective by listing flaws in a work, why they are bad, but what is 'objectively bad' isn't all that clear cut. Especially since you think fan service is objectively bad.

Oh look the "apologetics" line. What is up with people using this word when people don't agree with them? It really just makes you look bitter.

[A Man named RJ]

[spoiler]Fan service isn't automatically objectively bad and the animation of Super haven't been objectively bad in over a year. Dragon Ball also have plot holes in the dozens and no one calls it objectively bad.

Mediocre and lackluster can be subjective true, but it fits better than saying "Super's animation is objectively bad" when to be frank, that's a big lie. You can say "I don't like Super's animation" and still get your point across without trying to pretend to be objective.

Never saw any of those movies, so I can't comment. Also, you can be objective by listing flaws in a work, why they are bad, but what is 'objectively bad' isn't all that clear cut. Especially since you think fan service is objectively bad.

Oh look the "apologetics" line. What is up with people using this word when people don't agree with them? It really just makes you look bitter[/spoiler].

Working backwards:

[spoiler]1: It's apologetic because you're pretending the word "bad" is somehow unfitting and completely opinion based, but "mediocre" or "Lackluster" two words which should ALSO meet your criteria arent. You're being completely inconsistent here, and it shows to me that you are doing it not because you have a valid argument on standards, but because you're apologizing for Super. "nuh uhhh it cant be bad because i dont like that word, so use mediocre" That's apologetic, and it's extremely transparent. And if it makes me look bitter who cares?. But hey: "One rule for me, another for thee." amirite? There's a word for this behavior: hypocrisy

" but it fits better"

Yeah, to YOU!
2: Those trailers are the final product, and both released in the 2010s. We're talking animation here. Not very hard. Dont tell me you're a relativist.

3: When talking about super as a whole? it's music, it's animation? it's presentation? it's Bad. it's animation on average is also Bad, sure it's improved from where it was, but it's still bad. The production is still on fire. and lets not pretend it isn't. there was no reason for the previous recruitment mini arc to go on for so long if it wasnt in service to making the tournament a spectacle. Now what is it? a mediocre, and drawn-out buildup filled with plot holes, to a mediocre tournament in a bad show? The Battle of gods arc? mediocre. The RoF arc? a terrible retelling, the U6 arc? harmless but dumb. The mini arc after? awful. The New Future trunks Arc? Made no bloody sense at the end. it was such a confusing clusterfuck the main website had to flat out explain it's conclusion and still poorly. It was a BAD ARC! Super is by no stretch a good show. it's filled with visual and in-story inconsistencies. The animation and it's production is a master course on how not to plan your production.

4: I had this thing next to it called context where I stated that Super is NOTHING BUT fan service. And because it's nothing but fan service, and rehashing ideas, it is shallow. It will always be shallow. What idea was the Red Ribbon Army rehashing? it wasnt rehashing anything it was in service to goku's steady progression and character arc. What was the Freeza saga? A long buildup of goku discovering who he was, his mild identity crisis, and a confrontation with the warlord who destroyed his people, and many others. Even if Freeza didnt exist in the plot until part 2, The story built him up properly. Hell, lets talk about Vegeta's story arc, one of the best character arcs in a shonen series (along with piccolo) Who made the stakes all the more personal. vegeta was about going from hearless ruthless ruler, to a much more loving Father - Super comes along and actually undoes his character development from the end of the Buu Arc.... Just because "fans liked it better when Vegeta was a vengeful rival to goku." That's right this entire series can only exist because of obvious retcons (retroactive continuity). Character development has to be stripped away for this series to work. As a result, Goku is much dumber, and drops his guard all the time, something he hasn't done until super. End of Z may as well not even happened for Vegeta as he's back to his very beginning of Buu Saga Self. And these two are supposed to be the main characters.

I stand by it. Super is a bad series. I can enjoy it from time to time, but it's a bad series.[/spoiler]

[HeroR]

[spoiler]Fan service isn't automatically objectively bad and the animation of Super haven't been objectively bad in over a year. Dragon Ball also have plot holes in the dozens and no one calls it objectively bad.

Mediocre and lackluster can be subjective true, but it fits better than saying "Super's animation is objectively bad" when to be frank, that's a big lie. You can say "I don't like Super's animation" and still get your point across without trying to pretend to be objective.

Never saw any of those movies, so I can't comment. Also, you can be objective by listing flaws in a work, why they are bad, but what is 'objectively bad' isn't all that clear cut. Especially since you think fan service is objectively bad.

Oh look the "apologetics" line. What is up with people using this word when people don't agree with them? It really just makes you look bitter[/spoiler].

Working backwards:

[spoiler]1: It's apologetic because you're pretending the word "bad" is somehow unfitting and completely opinion based, but "mediocre" or "Lackluster" two words which should ALSO meet your criteria arent. You're being completely inconsistent here, and it shows to me that you are doing it not because you have a valid argument on standards, but because you're apologizing for Super. "nuh uhhh it cant be bad because i dont like that word, so use mediocre" That's apologetic, and it's extremely transparent. And if it makes me look bitter who cares?. But hey: "One rule for me, another for thee." amirite? There's a word for this behavior: hypocrisy

" but it fits better"

Yeah, to YOU!
2: Those trailers are the final product, and both released in the 2010s. We're talking animation here. Not very hard. Dont tell me you're a relativist.

3: When talking about super as a whole? it's music, it's animation? it's presentation? it's Bad. it's animation on average is also Bad, sure it's improved from where it was, but it's still bad. The production is still on fire. and lets not pretend it isn't. there was no reason for the previous recruitment mini arc to go on for so long if it wasnt in service to making the tournament a spectacle. Now what is it? a mediocre, and drawn-out buildup filled with plot holes, to a mediocre tournament in a bad show? The Battle of gods arc? mediocre. The RoF arc? a terrible retelling, the U6 arc? harmless but dumb. The mini arc after? awful. The New Future trunks Arc? Made no bloody sense at the end. it was such a confusing clusterfuck the main website had to flat out explain it's conclusion and still poorly. It was a BAD ARC! Super is by no stretch a good show. it's filled with visual and in-story inconsistencies. The animation and it's production is a master course on how not to plan your production.

4: I had this thing next to it called context where I stated that Super is NOTHING BUT fan service. And because it's nothing but fan service, and rehashing ideas, it is shallow. It will always be shallow. What idea was the Red Ribbon Army rehashing? it wasnt rehashing anything it was in service to goku's steady progression and character arc. What was the Freeza saga? A long buildup of goku discovering who he was, his mild identity crisis, and a confrontation with the warlord who destroyed his people, and many others. Even if Freeza didnt exist in the plot until part 2, The story built him up properly. Hell, lets talk about Vegeta's story arc, one of the best character arcs in a shonen series (along with piccolo) Who made the stakes all the more personal. vegeta was about going from hearless ruthless ruler, to a much more loving Father - Super comes along and actually undoes his character development from the end of the Buu Arc.... Just because "fans liked it better when Vegeta was a vengeful rival to goku." That's right this entire series can only exist because of obvious retcons (retroactive continuity). Character development has to be stripped away for this series to work. As a result, Goku is much dumber, and drops his guard all the time, something he hasn't done until super. End of Z may as well not even happened for Vegeta as he's back to his very beginning of Buu Saga Self. And these two are supposed to be the main characters.

I stand by it. Super is a bad series. I can enjoy it from time to time, but it's a bad series.[/spoiler]

As I said, everything you just wrote is your opinion and you're welcome to it. But you're the one using 'objectively bad' when the stuff you named isn't objectively bad. And Super is nothing but fan service, is also just untrue.

[Hit!!]

The negativity in this forum is getting to a point of exaggeration... Not sure if some of you are trolling or actually serious..

It's actually kind of laughable... Some people here had ridiculous expectations for this tournament and were let down.. I still don't understand exactly what some of you were expecting!!

That's why animators shouldn't share their twitter with everyone.

1 animator says "rise your expectations" and some people already think that they are gonna get some "Shingeki no kyojin" level animation in the first episodes of the ToP

[Jinzoningen MULE]

The negativity in this forum is getting to a point of exaggeration... Not sure if some of you are trolling or actually serious..

It's actually kind of laughable... Some people here had ridiculous expectations for this tournament and were let down.. I still don't understand exactly what some of you were expecting!!

I don't think you comprehend how infuriating it is when a thinking human being goes out of their way to articulate something, and any response you get is irrelevant or manipulative. It's like talking to someone from Mars, we might as well be speaking Hungarian. As if leeches have attached themselves to the head, and every time you say something they repeat some mangled version of your thoughts back at you, or god forbid responds with vacuous diarrhea like "Not sure if some of you are trolling or actually serious.."


So for the umpteenth time this week, let me explain how logical disagreements work:

Correct:
[spoiler]"Hi. I dislike the color red because X, Y, & Z."

"I disagree, red is good because X, Y, & Z."

(This will go back and forth until an agreement or an impasse is reached. Assuming the points are reasonable, an impasse can only be reached by way of incongruent priorities between the two parties)[/spoiler]
Incorrect:
[spoiler]Hi. I dislike the color red because X, Y, & Z."

LUL U TROLLIN?

or

What do you mean? Red isn't really red anymore! Stop falsely claiming that green is red! PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE RED BEHIND THE CURTAIN!!![/spoiler]
...and as if that weren't enough.

That's why animators shouldn't share their twitter with everyone.

1 animator says "rise your expectations" and some people already think that they are gonna get some "Shingeki no kyojin" level animation in the first episodes of the ToP

Don't raise your expectations when you're told by someone working on the production to raise expectations? Literally wtf else could possibly justify raising your standards if that doesn't? I'm not even familiar with these tweets or the context behind them, but if an animator says something that turns out to be wrong, it's not everyone else's fault for believing them. Thing is, no one was expecting anything mind-blowing right off the bat, something akin to the action in episode 57 (minus Shida, of course) would have been just fine for the beginning of the tournament, but everyone seems to have so lowered their expectations so incredibly drastically that mediocrity at critical junctures is acceptable. That may be fine for you, but Dragon Ball isn't my only pet series, I have good examples of how things should be to meet an acceptable standard, and Super is far from. Honestly, the only reason I'm still here at all is because there are about a half dozen people here that are consistently worth talking to, and I don't want to be out of the loop. Coming from someone who accepts The Force Awakens despite its blatant unoriginality and betrayal of Star Wars' previous themes, that's really bad! Having standards beyond "not episode 24" isn't this ghastly, unreasonable demand that so many of you make it out to be.


This is utterly retarded. I'm taking a break from the internet.

[manya]

Well, we know what DBS is objectively a bad series and isn´t Dragon Ball for many reasons (although i enjoy watching) but this a thread of animation please...

On topic... SatAru Yamashita and SatOru Yamashita are the same person? Because this animator have a good curriculum among other things he worked with Karasawa in ēlDLIVE and animated in series how Hunter x Hunter, Precure, Saint Seiya,etc ...

Maybe is good

[Nasryyy]

OMG, what is happening here ??

[Mazingerdestro]

Jesus the amount of trolling in the last 2 pages...... What's the point of people giving you knowledge about animation when you use it to track the original source and troll it.....

To the point now, Shimanuki's faces finally stopped looking so round (even though I think he should adjust them a little more to look totally on model) but still some of the bodies in this episode were too skinny.
The original character models removed some of muscles from z, making characters losing their big chests but the latest episode featured Goku and Vegeta with skinny legs.
Since aerial battles can't happen now, the best idea would be to focus on close-ups with a lot of detail.
The 4 frame loop punches need to have the body parts to move more natural. Some of Vegeta's quick punches were very still and as a result he looked like his body didn't move with his hand, which is unnatural.

[JazzMazz]

Jesus the amount of trolling in the last 2 pages...... What's the point of people giving you knowledge about animation when you use it to track the original source and troll it.....

I hardly see how what was being posted above was trolling. To be honest I agree with a lot of the negative sentiments going around, though I do believe it would be a little more appropriate to post it somewhere else, it's to well thought out and explained to fall under trolling.

[perucho1990]

Most of the people who are negative about the animation in the ToP, they think that its as bad as episodes 33 and 34.

Anyways, I wanted to ask....Around which episode the Tiger Mask W directors/supervisors will join the show? Episode 100?

[Yomi]

Is it a troll though? This conversation is happening in a lot of threads now.
About who should like Super, Who's a fan of super, who's a hater etc.

It's kinda weird.

[Amir]

I don't know what people are talking about with this negativity. The 2 last episodes were decently animated. The art was mostly good other than a couple of weird shots, the action was solid, especially the end of last week's ep, the reused animation was less than a minute overall and it blended well, everything is fine. It's not great, but what did you expect? Some OPM level of animation?
The animation in this arc and this tournament is consistent and better than the U6 and ROF arcs, and it's only begun.

E: Just read some previous comments, holy fucking shit.

[emperior]

The post above was definitely not trolling, though the guy was discussing many issues that don't have anything to do with animation. But he made a very good point: the schedule of the show also affects its story (and pacing) in part. The amount of Pilaf gang scenes we got back in FT arc are the prime example of this. It's not like DB, DBZ and GT didn't have this problem and it's up to the writers and the storyboarders to make the episodes as interesting (and plausible) as possible and back in FT arc they wasted too much time with the Pilaf gang, that time could have been used in more interesting way and I'm not talking about longer battles as they could have used up some Pilaf gang time to explain a few plot relevant things better.

[perucho1990]

The post above was definitely not trolling, though the guy was discussing many issues that don't have anything to do with animation. But he made a very good point: the schedule of the show also affects its story (and pacing) in part. The amount of Pilaf gang scenes we got back in FT arc are the prime example of this. It's not like DB, DBZ and GT didn't have this problem and it's up to the writers and the storyboarders to make the episodes as interesting (and plausible) as possible and back in FT arc they wasted too much time with the Pilaf gang, that time could have been used in more interesting way and I'm not talking about longer battles as they could have used up some Pilaf gang time to explain a few plot relevant things better.

Good point and looks like they learned their lesson, because for padding ,they are focusing on Beerus group, with Whis and Old Kaioshin explaining stuff to the audience like why Goku isnt using Blue, teamwork aspect, etc .

[emperior]

The post above was definitely not trolling, though the guy was discussing many issues that don't have anything to do with animation. But he made a very good point: the schedule of the show also affects its story (and pacing) in part. The amount of Pilaf gang scenes we got back in FT arc are the prime example of this. It's not like DB, DBZ and GT didn't have this problem and it's up to the writers and the storyboarders to make the episodes as interesting (and plausible) as possible and back in FT arc they wasted too much time with the Pilaf gang, that time could have been used in more interesting way and I'm not talking about longer battles as they could have used up some Pilaf gang time to explain a few plot relevant things better.

Good point and looks like they learned their lesson, because for padding ,they are focusing on Beerus group, with Whis and Old Kaioshin explaining stuff to the audience like why Goku isnt using Blue, teamwork aspect, etc .

That's right, and I'm very glad they are doing it. Last episode felt similar to Toyotaro's manga with Whis and Beerus explaining things, and that was a smart way to use some episode time.

[BakaManiaHD]

This is one of the few time repeated frames looked really good

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

[ekrolo2]

Story wise I found the constant explaining a horrendous way of padding things out. I'm not opposed to side comments for things that neither the characters nor us are aware of but come the fuck on! Beerus knows what Lavender's poison can do! We don't need a whole cutaway where they're commenting on that as if they've never seen it before.

[A Man named RJ]

Jesus the amount of trolling in the last 2 pages...... What's the point of people giving you knowledge about animation when you use it to track the original source and troll it.....

To the point now, Shimanuki's faces finally stopped looking so round (even though I think he should adjust them a little more to look totally on model) but still some of the bodies in this episode were too skinny.
The original character models removed some of muscles from z, making characters losing their big chests but the latest episode featured Goku and Vegeta with skinny legs.
Since aerial battles can't happen now, the best idea would be to focus on close-ups with a lot of detail.
The 4 frame loop punches need to have the body parts to move more natural. Some of Vegeta's quick punches were very still and as a result he looked like his body didn't move with his hand, which is unnatural.

It was an aside discussion. I'm through explaining my point since he's not going to accept these objective criticisms, and keep calling them "subjective" There's no point in critique if everything is "just like ur opinion bro" Since I'm approaching this discussion like an empiricist, and him like a relativist, there will be no common ground, so I'm stopping here.

On topic:
I was really looking forward to the "no flying" rule because that would make combat more extensive, intricate and choreographed than just rapid fire punch n' kick, but if that reused shot of 18 from last episode proves anmything it's that they'll probably just use "Falling with style" logic which makes me a very sad panda. Logistically speaking, could Super handle an actual choreographed, hand-to-hand fight scene?