SSBlue -- people seem confused by it.

[Marlowe89]

Thus, my reasoning for why we don't see a separate God Ki/Power-bearing base form alluded to or ever implied is that

The problem is that we do see it alluded to, implied and even flat-out shown on (at least) two different occasions. They were able to do it during their sparring match and they were also able to do it while in Whis' dimension. Vegeta even specifically commented on feeling the pressure of God ki after the conversion process, although Goku did mention it was demanding to keep it all inside.

The issue, I suppose, is determining whether that base was ever used in combat.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Thus, my reasoning for why we don't see a separate God Ki/Power-bearing base form alluded to or ever implied is that

The problem is that we do see it alluded to, implied and even flat-out shown on (at least) two different occasions. They were able to do it during their sparring match and they were also able to do it while in Whis' dimension. Vegeta even specifically commented on feeling the pressure of God ki after the conversion process.

The issue, I suppose, is determining whether it was ever used in combat.

I guess what I really mean is a "usable" version, one that's specifically more powerful than their normal base form. As the rest of my post stated, my headcanon is that this state you've described is incomplete, only truly attainable with SS to create SSB, and that doing so in base form only results in tasting the power of SSG for oneself and no tangible power increase.

My stance is that Saiyan Beyond God is a Saiyan who possesses the power of SSG and made it his own, thus making him unfathomably stronger than before, but cannot fully tap into that power without the fine control of one's Ki such that it doesn't even leak within a suitable form to hold that power such as Super Saiyan. Thus, a Saiyan Beyond God who controls his Ki to raise it within himself without it leaking and is also a Super Saiyan becomes Super Saiyan Blue.

[Marlowe89]

I guess what I really mean is a "usable" version, one that's specifically more powerful than their normal base form. As the rest of my post stated, my headcanon is that this state you've described is incomplete, only truly attainable with SS to create SSB, and that doing so in base form only results in tasting the power of SSG for oneself and no tangible power increase.

Well, if it enables them to taste the power of SSG for themselves then that is a tangible power increase. Even in their sparring match, they were staring at their own fists in amazement after manifesting that blue spark and Whis commented on how much they'd improved. Vegeta stating that the pressure of it felt immense was also an allusion to them having grown considerably stronger after the ki conversion in base; Trunks mentioned the same thing during the Black arc and that was within the context of Vegeta being much stronger than before.

Or did you mean that they simply can't use that base for an extended period of time, i.e. in combat? I suppose you could hypothesize that being the case, but it doesn't really change the fact that the "God ki base" still exists within their own repertoire of skills and abilities.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I guess what I really mean is a "usable" version, one that's specifically more powerful than their normal base form. As the rest of my post stated, my headcanon is that this state you've described is incomplete, only truly attainable with SS to create SSB, and that doing so in base form only results in tasting the power of SSG for oneself and no tangible power increase.

Well, if it enables them to taste the power of SSG for themselves then that is a tangible power increase. Even in their sparring match, they were staring at their fists in amazement after manifesting that blue spark and Whis commented on how much they'd improved. Vegeta stating that the pressure of it felt immense was also an allusion to them having grown considerably stronger after the ki conversion in base; Trunks mentioned the same thing during the Black arc and that was within the context of Vegeta being much stronger than before.

Or did you mean that they simply can't use that base for an extended period of time, i.e. in combat? I suppose you could hypothesize that being the case, but it doesn't really change the fact that the "God ki base" still exists within their own repertoire of skills and abilities.

I believe neither of what you've said. Like the SSG form, precise Ki control was really just the gateway to higher levels of power. I don't believe that tasting the power of SSG is the same as having it in its entirety.

Yes, learning to precisely control their Ki lead them to making impressive gains, but I'm of the belief that it was merely an improved method of growing in power like any other training regime, rather than the technique itself being the power increase. If one subscribes to my perspective on the matter, containing their Ki is only really usable in SS form, since that's how I think they tap into the power of SSG that they've made their own.

"Saiyan Beyond God" isn't a separate state in my eyes, even factoring in complete Ki control, only the necessary permanent power a Saiyan must possess to turn SSB. It's like my view on Gohan's Ultimate power now and back during RoF. Without a form/state capable of sustaining that power due to a lack of training and mental discipline, Gohan couldn't fully utilize Ultimate, but I believe that he still was permanently more powerful in regular forms, hence him possibly being above Piccolo in base form during RoF. He has "some" Ultimate in him normally, but he can't fully access it normally without the Ultimate state itself, like how Goku and Vegeta have "some" SSG in them normally but can't fully access it without SSG or SSB.

[CTown]

Hi, I liked this discussion so much, I registered just to tell my own crazy theories on:

why SSB needs greater ki control

Keeping a new form from a transformation requires a maintenance fee to stay in that form. This comes from the physical and chemical changes to the body (becoming a different "being"). The pay off is a much greater ki pool to draw from. This maintenance fee can be lowered by just getting used to the form and all the strange changes to the body. This explains why Goku needed to get Gohan and himself used to SSJ before the Cell Games. He wanted to lower the transformation ki loss in order to gain the larger ki pool of SSJ while slowing down the transformation fee eating away at that pool of ki. This also agrees with Goku in Super when explaining to Freeza in Resurrection F that Freeza lost the fight due to his informality with his Golden Form. It also explains the ever progressing maintenance fee in SSJ forms.

The more ki any fighter has, the greater the aura will look. This could be represented by any detail in the aura (like blue sparks of electricity or just size). However; if the fighter does not have perfect ki control, the aura is dissipation of energy from the body. With perfect ki control, the aura still surrounds the body; thus, is still part of the body (the ki in not leaked). Let’s call this loss of ki: Aura ki loss Whis’s training was meant to ward off this reason of ki drain. However; protecting against this ki loss does not have anything to due with SSB’s ki fee.

Plus, the auras are just to cool to go away!

As for what SSB is in relations to SSG

Beerus asks one of the Sayains if they plan on succeeding him. Also:
[spoiler]In the survival tournament, Frieza claims that he one day rule over the two Zen-Ohs[/spoiler]

This implies that any "mortal" can become a deity. Why, because these people do not believe in God the same way Muslims and Jews believe in God (the one and only God is unborn, not visible, eternal, etc). In their universes mortals can become one. So, a possible transformations for either some mortals or just Sayains is to harness diety ki. However, this is such a large change that it is taxing on the body. But since this change is only a change in ki, a Sayain would still have their own transformations (SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3). I bet if Broly could go SSG, he would also get a deity version of Legendary SSJ instead of SSB. My guess is there will one day be a time where Goku and Vegeta are so used to SSB (which is more taxing on the body than SSG) that they will be able to sleep in SSG form (thus be thought of mortals no longer).

[DBZ Macky]

After finally catching up to the English dub of Super, I think I have a pretty good theory to explain this whole SSB and God Ki confusion.
Basically, it's quite similar to what Kaboom said a few months back. (You're a genius when it comes to this sort of thing man)

I'm mostly apathetic about Super's power levels, but the so-called "two base" theory (which is a misleading name if you ask me) seems to make the most sense to me. I don't know why some people are so adamantly (and often rudely) opposed to it, either. Super doesn't bother to explain diddly squat about this stuff, so it's basically open season on fan-theories.


Here's my minimal-effort way of making sense of it...

• [ NO GOD-KI ] — Goku's normal base and Super Saiyan 1-3 forms, presumably only moderately stronger than before he became a god to fight Beerus.
• [ SOME GOD-KI ] — Goku can tap into some of his godly ki to enhance his normal power, usually just his base, which the games and whatever label as "Saiyan beyond god" I guess. He can still be sensed on some level but is much stronger than normal, already trumping almost everyone from the Majin Boo arc.
• [ MOST GOD-KI ] — The red-haired Super Saiyan God form. Goku taps into most of his godly ki while still in just his base form, which transforms his body into the kinda-unstable godly form he had against Beerus. His godly ki has almost fully replaced and overwritten his normal ki in this state, so he can no longer be sensed by mortals. (This only happened in the manga version, but it seems worth including and could probably be retroactively applied to Goku's fight with Beerus too.)
• [ ALL GOD-KI ] — Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan / Super Saiyan Blue. Goku uses Super Saiyan to tap into 100% of his godly ki reserves, and even push it a little farther and stronger than the red-haired SSG form. The godly ki completely "takes over" and eclipses his normal power, so he can't be sensed.

So I don't think of it like a "switch" for his god-ki that he can completely turn on or off and that's it. Instead, in my eyes it's more like a mixture of different liquids, like alcohol content in a drink or something. Goku's "beyond-god" base form may be like 90% normal ki and 10% godly ki, but that godly ki is so damn potent that it makes his power level skyrocket to far above normal.

The Super Saiyan forms don't factor into it much other than serving as better conduits for the god-power, since Goku seems to need the full Super Saiyan Blue transformation to be at his strongest, but it doesn't seem at all to be a big 50x boost over SSG.

The only difference being that I think the Red Super Saiyan God is the one with 100% God Ki, and a Mastered Super Saiyan Blue would have 5,000% God Ki.
Basically, Goku can compress his Ki inside his body to increase his power, and when it's 100% compressed, it becomes a sort of "Ki-less Ki", resulting in Super Saiyan God.

Now, this is just a theory, but it answers literally every single question related to God Ki and how Super Saiyan God / Super Saiyan Blue works:

Question: What is God Ki? How is it different/stronger than regular Ki?
Answer: It's nothing but regular Ki compressed to extreme amounts. We already know from the Goku and Piccolo vs. Raditz fight, how fighters can concentrate their Ki in their palms or fingertips to greatly amplify their powers. It's the same deal with God Ki, harnessing it just requires the guy to be able to compress all of his Ki inside his body without letting it leak (which is easier said than done).

Question: How does Super Saiyan God work? Why does it have a time limit?
Answer: Super Saiyan God makes the body of the Saiyan skinnier, thus allowing it to compress the Saiyan's mortal Ki into God Ki. It has a time limit because even if the compression of Ki is automatic, it still strains the body a lot. Regular Saiyans like the Original Super Saiyan God aren't geniuses like Goku and Vegeta either, so they can't figure out how to compress their Ki manually and can't use God's power when they exceed SSG's time limit.

Question: Why didn't Goku get much/any weaker when he reverted back into his Base/SS form?
Answer: Goku got a taste of God's power and subconsciously figured out how to wield it by compressing his Ki. Though his compression had weakened a bit (requiring actual manual effort to wield it instead of it being automatic when he was a SSG), he was able to harness more of it by transforming into a Super Saiyan in Battle of Gods by using his Super Saiyan form as a conduit (in Super, he was already in this form, thus why he didn't weaken at all).

When all hope seems lost, Goku gets an adrenaline rush and is able to become a Super Saiyan God once again by compressing his Ki in the Movie. In the Anime adaptation, Goku loses his Super Saiyan form when destroying Beerus's ball, but his adrenaline rush allows him to remain just as strong, if not stronger.

Question:: Why didn't Goku transform into a Super Saiyan 2 or 3 against Beerus? Wouldn't he be able to stomp Beerus (who was a 10 according to the BoG interview) if he'd just went SS2 and doubled his power (essentially going from a 6 to a 12)?
Answer: While SS2 and SS3 might act as better conduits for compressing Goku's Ki, the strain of 2 and especially 3 in conjunction with Goku already expending a good deal of his stamina, it might actually tire Goku out and prove to be a fatal mistake. I believe this may be one of the reasons why Toriyama stated that Goku realized that strengthening his Base form and regular SS form would allow him to power-up more and sap less strength.

Question: Did Goku really make SSG's power his own? Does he need to use the ritual anymore?
Answer: Goku got a taste of God's power, and while he still doesn't truly understand how God Ki works until he trains with Whis, he still remembers the feeling and can access God's power on his own, maybe even being able to transform into the real form in a pinch. He can still become a Super Saiyan God through the ritual, he just doesn't need to.

Question: How did Vegeta get stronger than Goku without undergoing the ritual?
Answer: He trained with Whis, who taught him how to prevent his Ki leaking from his body, i.e. how to compress his Ki. Thus, even without actually undergoing the ritual, he's still able to access God's power on his own. He can even transform into a Super Saiyan God when he prevents all of his Ki from leaking out of his body, i.e. compresses 100% of it.

That pretty much covers the pre-RoF stuff with Super Saiyan God. I have explanations for what Super Saiyan Blue and "Mastered" SSB is and how strong Goku's regular state and golden forms are in the story arcs after BoG, but it's already quite late here. I'll probably post the rest of my opinions on this tomorrow, so I hope you guys can give some feedback on this until then

[Hugo Boss]

[...]
That pretty much covers the pre-RoF stuff with Super Saiyan God. I have explanations for what Super Saiyan Blue and "Mastered" SSB is and how strong Goku's regular state and golden forms are in the story arcs after BoG, but it's already quite late here. I'll probably post the rest of my opinions on this tomorrow, so I hope you guys can give some feedback on this until then

Pretty good insight. And I'm glad you took that from Kaboom and expanded it in your own way. He really is good with this sort of stuff. It seems you forgot to continue on the story arcs after Beerus.

My bet is that, since controlling god power is quite demanding, they try not to use it on multiple fights/friendly spars. Instead, they normally resort to golden forms or normal base.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Honestly, a lot of the confusion has been cleared up over the years that this show has run. It's mainly the little details that can be a little foggy.

It's pretty much unanimously agreed upon that SSB is a SS in possession of SSG's power, and its overwhelming strength, speed, and Ki control at the cost of decreased stamina makes sense in that regard if one basically rationalizes the form as compressing Ki into oneself to prevent it from leaking to turn regular SS into a god form, and this process taking its physical toll on the user like when powering up SS further into SS2 or going from base form to a level of Kaio-ken.

Basically, my thoughts on this matter are that SSG is a form that accesses SSG's power (if that makes any sense), but isn't actually that power's full extent. By using SS to access that power instead of SSG, Goku and Vegeta can make that power stronger and control it better because they're using a form they're familiar with and have already mastered, thus creating the perfect SS form short of the original SS.

Additionally, because of my stubbornness, I refuse to believe that the Saiyans can "partially" tap into SSG's power without transforming into the form in a way like "Saiyan Beyond God". Thus, this also leads me to believe that the process of tapping into SSG's power using Whis's method of perfect Ki control doesn't increase Goku's and Vegeta's power level on its own, they have to choose to transform into either SSG or SS whilst they're in the process of controlling SSG's power to actually use that power for themselves.

[Arugela]

So I felt like I had understood some things about Super Saiyan Blue, but to be honest with you all, I think there is widespread confusion on what exactly it is.

People either believe it to be "the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan who has the power of Super Saiyan God" or they believe that it is God Ki + SS1 = SSBlue.

Toei seems to have confused the fuck out of people during the RoF saga because of their two explanations as to how SSBlue is formed.

These are some comments I found on YouTube:

SSB is simply a Super Saiyan becoming a God. Because of the perfect ki control and their level of focus, they can condense and convert their ki to god ki. SSG is simply a Saiyan becoming a god. So it should be called Saiyan God, while SSB is basically Super Saiyan God.

*He literally says, ssg is base form turning god via increasing ki control.(probably condensing it to make it more efficient somehow.) SSG is base form condensing and focusing super heavily on ki control. SSB is SS doing the same.

SSB is basically energy-efficient Super Saiyan form. If you don't believe me, check which color is there at the exterior of the SSB. Goku just says you need Super Saiyan God like power to go SSB, not the status itself. And Super Saiyan God is an evolution, not a transformtion.

*Basically he's saying ki control is heavy on stamina as you have to concentrate physically to make your ki not flow as quickly and rapidly. It's concentration which is physically hard like reading for extended periods or other mentally(mental is physical) difficult tasks. especially combined with other physical activity. He's literally making his energy more efficient that is all. That is the power of the gods. Notice how they are all skinny. As he says SSG is not a form it's an evolution. It's god ki level of control that he learned from experiencing from the ritual. Vegeta learned what it was and learned it the hard way.

Yep, SSG represents godhood while SSB represents mastery of your own ki which gives you power of gods but not godhood.

*This could mean SSG was true god somehow in a different way initially. maybe while he first obtained it against beerus.. Maybe the ritual, possibly magical, actually imparted it temporarily in a more accurate sense. And when he absorbed it he's only using it or is still not fully using it and "godhood" is a level of that control. Maybe he's still working back up to full godhood level and purer ki control. AKA once he absorbed it by naturally learning from the experience he now has to master it more fully.. Along the way he's probably gotten stronger also in base form.

They both mean godhood and mastery of ki, but, yeah, SSG represents Goku reaching a new level of power. SSG is a Base form becoming a god, while an SSB is a Super Saiyan becoming a god.

*I think he means being imparted god hood was being given a new form. While SSB he applied it to SS to do the same thing and hence not new.

Goku said calm mind and perfect ki control. try to connect the dots.

SSB is not godhood. SSG is. That is only true in the manga. In the anime SSB =/= SSGSS.

*maybe in the manga he has full god powers in ssg.... not sure.

I am curious how you all think this fits together (SSGod, SSBlue, God Ki, and what Goku said about a Saiyan with the power of a SSG). It is clear that not everyone agrees on how this works. It might do some good to hear Goku teach SSBlue to Caulifla.

Maybe it has to do with like the statements about going into ptera fusion with or without super Saiyan. It's easier to do in base then transform. It sounds like in all of those statements it's about the same thing. He goes into god form in base and he's SSG. If he goes into god form from SS he' SSB. The concept of god form is ki control. So he starts controlling his key from either form and gets a different result.

I think, basically, goku can control his ki in any form and go god as it is a general thing he can simply do. What you get in different forms is him doing it from different base states. God form is just ki control. He's concentrating and controlling his ki better and making it efficient. This is why it's draining his stamina. Because like the ptera form if they started in SS he's starting in SS and then using ki control which drains him physically as it's more base ki to control.

In the manga is it implied when/if he absorb god form he kept it fully.. I'm not aware of the difference in the manga.

Also a lack of context of these statement can throw all of this off. You can't tell what he meant in isolation. There could be reasons for the wording that are not straightforward in this form because of what he was addressing. Let alone translations of it. In which case the context helps immensely!

And I'll assume the SSG form has healing because it's from base form. his ki control is not going against massive power output. Where in SS/B form he has lots of power and the same ammount of ki control ability does not get to do things lik immensly concentrate on healing abilities naturally. So SSG healing is the result of less ki overall to control or less intensity of ki. Unless goku developed a greater ammount of ki control. then SSB could hypothetically get SSG level healing in SSB, but would then have greater healing in SSG unless there is a natural cap. Unless he also increased his base ki and it changes the ammount of ki to control regardless. It's probably proportional. Then again unless SS is like in electricty and you simply in crease the intensity or amperage.... Then it's a different matter.

What do the different states do. if we can compare them to basic electricity which is increasing batter capacity vs voltage vs amperage? I'll assume the aura is something like power or heat output. I bet if you use electricity it would be more accurate. I mean it's a logical basis for any energy usage in a functional environment.

Does increased amperage or reduced resistance lower heat in a circuit?(I'm assuming the answer is both in static parmeters.) Burnout would likely be increased voltage right?(or is that simply stopped by resistance?) Although I think increased voltage is increased amperage.... Or is ki control removing resistivity? I'm way behind in electronics studies. Ok, maybe it's not a good example as everything is codependent or cofunctional without further changes... At least not in simple circuits. Then again, increasing voltage does increase amperage and hence heat and possibly burn out.. NVM, it may work out. But more complex circuits might help. Or it has to include a lot of changing of base circuit abilities somehow.

You know they could be using electronics to make the show. Omega from omega shenron is the symbol for ohms for voltage... I wonder how much of it works out. Besides any natural correlations.

The other possible question is why can't people sense the ki? That might explain it. Unless it's not that thought out in the show. Why would condensing it or any other variation not let them sense it?! Are they basing it off something that would explain this. Like something in eastern religions or philosophy?

Maybe it's just compression. The particles become so small nobody can sense it anymore...

[ankokudaishogun]

"Saiyan Beyond God" is just what they calls the transformation to Super Saiyan Blue in DBHeroes when it was still a secret for the movie.
Similar thing for "Super Saiya-Power", "Awakening to Divine Might" and "Limit Breaking Saiyan": those are ability names for when the card has no single fixed transformation.


By the way
Saiyan Beyond God=Kami wo Koeta Saiya-jin

Kami=Super Saiyan God
wo Koeta=Beyond=Super
Saiya-jin=Saiyan



It's quite obviously not the 1:1 translation, but I'd bet peanuts that was the reason behind the name.



That said...
God Ki means keeping Ki from leaking out the body as much as possible.
Going full God Ki=Transforming in Super Saiyan God
Going Super Saiyan with God Ki=Super Saiyan Blue

Both God and Blue don't give out a Ki reading to those not using God Ki themselves, but Blue produces an immense "pressure"(which is the reason Goku used it while scouting the ToP members).
Blue also leaves the user a great amount of Ki control, which explains how Goku could hold back so well.

Transforming from Base to Blue burns a lot of stamina.
Transforming from God to Blue is MUCH less taxing.

The only remaining doubt is the actual maximum power-level on base form and why.
My current hypothesis is that their base-forms's power depends on HOW MUCH Ki they keep from leaking.
So they can get almost as strong a SSGod, which would automatically happen if they go full God Ki.
For lower power-levels, it's most likely either less efficient or, most likely, just more boring than simply transform into Super Saiyan. Goku and Vegeta love to show off.
So they end up using Super Saiyan 1-3 when they want to have fun, and Blue when they are serious because everything else is just not efficient.