Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Super Saiyan God never really went anywhere, from the looks of it he could have used that form at any time but just chose not to is all.

Super Saiyan 3 has only appeared twice since the fight Beerus itself.

It's odd why they didn't use it for the past 90 episodes and just so happened to use it now of all times but from In Universe perspective it was always available to him so there wasn't any need for an explanation.

[HeroR]

The return of SSG messes up so much
Why did Goku go straight to Blue against 17?
Why did he use Blue on the spaceship?
Why did he uses SSB on Krillin? If it was just to show him god ki, then he could've went SSG.
Does Vegeta also know SSG?
Why not use SSG on U9 and Kale instead of wasting stamina on SSB?
Why not use SSG to escape that guy who tried to ring him out?

17 is stronger than Super Saiyan God.

The fight with Krillin was meant to be completely overkill, so Goku used his strongest form to test him.

Why didn't they used just Super Saiyan against U9 since any god form is overkill.

Kale tanked a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Kamehameha. Why do you think Goku would have fared better with Super Saiyan God?

Goku could have used any Super Saiyan form to escape, so god there is overkill regardless.

[Kishido]

Everything from prior arc makes no sense now

And 2 base is dead

[HeroR]

Everything from prior arc makes no sense now

And 2 base is dead

It makes perfect sense, if you don't downplay everyone and insist everyone who fights base form Goku and Vegeta are only in the Cell Saga tier.

The two-base theory was a stupid theory created to downplay first the U6 fighters and then everyone that came after them and it never had any basics in the show since no one could explain why Goku used a weak base form against Frost, but his strong base form against Hit and no one commented on it, or pretending the in-between episodes didn't count.

So, good ridden to a theory that should have died a long time ago.

[Saturnine]

Everything from prior arc makes no sense now

And 2 base is dead

It makes perfect sense, if you don't downplay everyone and insist everyone who fights base form Goku and Vegeta are only in the Cell Saga tier.

The two-base theory was a stupid theory created to downplay first the U6 fighters and then everyone that came after them and it never had any basics in the show since no one could explain why Goku used a weak base form against Frost, but his strong base form against Hit and no one commented on it, or pretending the in-between episodes didn't count.

So, good ridden to a theory that should have died a long time ago.

You got it all wrong, buddy. The theory is dead alright, but there was no "strong base". Except for RoF and Potaufeu of course. Again, there is no in-universe explanation, there is only an out of universe one - Goku and Vegeta would be way too strong in base to have any sort of challenge if their god-absorbed base was kept. There is no way in hell base Cabba, who had never even gone SSj before, was as strong as a Super Saiyan God. Just no way. This isn't "downplaying" anyone, it's just common freaking sense. Also, you don't go regular SSj off SBG, that alone should have been enough to notice that the SBG schtick was being retired. For all intents and purposes, right now there is only the weak, regular base (still many times stronger than 100% Namek Freeza right now due to all the trainings and fights that Goku and Vegeta have been through).

As for Goku not using SSj God until now, it's actualyl perfectly logical. For one, SSj Blue can be suppressed, for two it's not that taxing that you can't last against a single enemy long enough to finish the job. SSj God only became needed in a setting where you need to conserve your stamina, while providing a decent level of strength. This is just like people complaining "why didn't Goku use SSj3 but instead used a suppressed SSj Blue". Well

[Saturnine]

Personally I wonder if Goku's new form and the purpose for it was made to fit in line with the manga.

I think it was more an example of acknowledging that the manga did something good and useful and borrowing that for the anime. They are still not the same continuities and will never be, if only due to the differences already present. In this case, the reintroduction of SSj God serves to kill the perception that Goku's base is already as strong as SSj God. And rightfully so, because we've been getting multiple hints for a long time now that it isn't meant to be. It used to in the beginning, this got changed.

Of course guys like SethTheProgrammer will come up with something like "this puts a SSj God multiplier on a base as strong as SSj God already, making it quadrillions of times stronger than SSj God" - swear to goodness, I saw him say it in one of his videos from some time ago - but luckily this sort of folks will be in the minority.

[Kishido]

Everything from prior arc makes no sense now

And 2 base is dead

It makes perfect sense, if you don't downplay everyone and insist everyone who fights base form Goku and Vegeta are only in the Cell Saga tier.

The two-base theory was a stupid theory created to downplay first the U6 fighters and then everyone that came after them and it never had any basics in the show since no one could explain why Goku used a weak base form against Frost, but his strong base form against Hit and no one commented on it, or pretending the in-between episodes didn't count.

So, good ridden to a theory that should have died a long time ago.

So Base Goku = Final Form Freeza in RoF but weaker than Final Form Frost in U6 arc... Copy Base Vegeta >>>> Gotenks. Base Goku could fight "Monaka" but needs Super Saiyan and above for other fodder.

Not even talking about the other characters power scale where most of the people needed Goku or Vegeta to at least transform into Super Saiyan... Strangely in RoF against Freeza not.

Hell even Fat Buu who beat a guy Goku and Vegeta used Super Saiyan forms for... While Gotenks was way stronger than him

Or simply said... Final Form Freeza is weak, Beerus is not that great and Gotenks is a loser

[AvatarReiko]

So confirmation that DBZ characters only now just reached light speeds and that Goku and other characters from the original manga were far below lightspeed

Also, confirmation that 17, Toppo, Hit, Zamasu, Krillin and Golden Frieza are all at least lightspeed since they can keep up with blue, which is stronger than God.

Apparently Zen-Oh cannot perceive Dyspo's movements and needs the slo-mo see. The Angels, GoD and Goku>>>>>>Zen-Oh.

Champa had issues keeping up with Dyspo's speed while SSJ God Goku could easily react. Vegito=Beerus>>>>>>>Blue Goku>>>SSJG Goku>>>Hit(adapted)>=Champa

[Lord Frieza]

So Dyspo is stronger then SSG Goku and is faster then Goku and Hit, but his fighting style is to predicatable as he's to used to his speed being his trump card.

Edit: Also his super speed allows him to punch above his weight class much like the Flash.

[JazzMazz]

So confirmation that DBZ characters only now just reached light speeds and that Goku and other characters from the original manga were far below lightspeed

Also, confirmation that 17, Toppo, Hit, Zamasu, Krillin and Golden Frieza are all at least lightspeed since they can keep up with blue, which is stronger than God.

Apparently Zen-Oh cannot perceive Dyspo's movements and needs the slo-mo see. The Angels, GoD and Goku>>>>>>Zen-Oh.

Champa had issues keeping up with Dyspo's speed while SSJ God Goku could easily react. Vegito=Beerus>>>>>>>Blue Goku>>>SSJG Goku>>>Hit(adapted)>=Champa

It really doesn't though, it just says Dyspo has surpassed light speed, it doesn't say by how much, it just says he has. It's a vague statement that only really confirms Dyspo is faster than light, we still don't know how much faster he is though.

So Dyspo is stronger then SSG Goku and is faster then Goku and Hit, but his fighting style is to predicatable as he's to used to his speed being his trump card.

Edit: Also his super speed allows him to punch above his weight class much like the Flash.

Of course he hits really hard if his punches are faster than light. After all, force=mass x acceleration. Here's a good video explaining what a punch at 99% of the speed of light could do.

[Ki Breaker]

So Dyspo is stronger then SSG Goku and his faster then Goku and Hit, but his fighting style is to predicatable as he's to used to his speed being his trump card.

Edit: Also his super speed allows him to punch above his weight class much like the Flash.

How is he stronger?
Goku never said anything about his strength, only his speed, that's what makes him troublesome..
Super speed only applies when he is moving fast, and he can't move fast in succession, like hit pointed out, that would make hus attacks slower and hence weaker as well, Goku could block him easy because he dosen't hit too hard, only fast..

Also, what do you know, Lord Frieza, your Justice loving team just got their justice slapped out of them

[Saturnine]

Everything from prior arc makes no sense now

And 2 base is dead

It makes perfect sense, if you don't downplay everyone and insist everyone who fights base form Goku and Vegeta are only in the Cell Saga tier.

The two-base theory was a stupid theory created to downplay first the U6 fighters and then everyone that came after them and it never had any basics in the show since no one could explain why Goku used a weak base form against Frost, but his strong base form against Hit and no one commented on it, or pretending the in-between episodes didn't count.

So, good ridden to a theory that should have died a long time ago.

So Base Goku = Final Form Freeza in RoF but weaker than Final Form Frost in U6 arc... Copy Base Vegeta >>>> Gotenks. Base Goku could fight "Monaka" but needs Super Saiyan and above for other fodder.

Not even talking about the other characters power scale where most of the people needed Goku or Vegeta to at least transform into Super Saiyan... Strangely in RoF against Freeza not.

Hell even Fat Buu who beat a guy Goku and Vegeta used Super Saiyan forms for... While Gotenks was way stronger than him

Or simply said... Final Form Freeza is weak, Beerus is not that great and Gotenks is a loser

Or it was simply retconned. I'm sure you know what a "retcon" means. In this case it was more than that - a change of direction with no adequate in-universe explanation.

[Lord Frieza]

So Dyspo is stronger then SSG Goku and his faster then Goku and Hit, but his fighting style is to predicatable as he's to used to his speed being his trump card.

Edit: Also his super speed allows him to punch above his weight class much like the Flash.

How is he stronger?
Goku never said anything about his strength, only his speed, that's what makes him troublesome..

Also, what do you know, Lord Frieza, your Justice loving team just got their justice slapped out of them

for the sirt part I go back to my edit, Also his super speed allows him to punch above his weight class much like the Flash.

Much like Flash and many other speedsters, his speed greatly increases the damage of his punchs. While his fighting style is predictable, He's punchs were more then powerful enough to hurt Hit and Goku used Blue to attack him. And considering how beat up SSG Goku was befor they switched, Dyspo can out match the form. Hit is better suited to fight Dyspo due to his intagability ability.

To the second point, yes they did. But I its not some major issue as I support them for fun and the fact their not all big badasses is not an issue. If it were people would not be fans of Krillin. Plus when Jiren curbstomps everyone....well it will make up for all this loss.

[HeroR]

You got it all wrong, buddy. The theory is dead alright, but there was no "strong base". Except for RoF and Potaufeu of course. Again, there is no in-universe explanation, there is only an out of universe one - Goku and Vegeta would be way too strong in base to have any sort of challenge if their god-absorbed base was kept. There is no way in hell base Cabba, who had never even gone SSj before, was as strong as a Super Saiyan God. Just no way. This isn't "downplaying" anyone, it's just common freaking sense. Also, you don't go regular SSj off SBG, that alone should have been enough to notice that the SBG schtick was being retired. For all intents and purposes, right now there is only the weak, regular base (still many times stronger than 100% Namek Freeza right now due to all the trainings and fights that Goku and Vegeta have been through).

As for Goku not using SSj God until now, it's actualyl perfectly logical. For one, SSj Blue can be suppressed, for two it's not that taxing that you can't last against a single enemy long enough to finish the job. SSj God only became needed in a setting where you need to conserve your stamina, while providing a decent level of strength. This is just like people complaining "why didn't Goku use SSj3 but instead used a suppressed SSj Blue". Well

We saw the strong base several times like when he fought Slim Buu, when he tanked Piccolo's charged up attack, the same Piccolo that choked out Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, and seeing Freeza in base form waste everyone when he's stronger than ever and base form Goku was shown above him. And SBG never existed. It was a term created in Heroes, nothing more. The base form that fought Freeza, is just Goku's base form stronger than ever.

The rest is you just denying that certain characters can be so strong. They are. There's nothing more to say about it. Also, all Super Saiyan forms can be suppressed. This isn't some special trait of Blue. Goku had sex with Chi-Chi when he was a freaking Super Saiyan and she isn't dead.

Everything from prior arc makes no sense now

And 2 base is dead

It makes perfect sense, if you don't downplay everyone and insist everyone who fights base form Goku and Vegeta are only in the Cell Saga tier.

The two-base theory was a stupid theory created to downplay first the U6 fighters and then everyone that came after them and it never had any basics in the show since no one could explain why Goku used a weak base form against Frost, but his strong base form against Hit and no one commented on it, or pretending the in-between episodes didn't count.

So, good ridden to a theory that should have died a long time ago.

So Base Goku = Final Form Freeza in RoF but weaker than Final Form Frost in U6 arc... Copy Base Vegeta >>>> Gotenks. Base Goku could fight "Monaka" but needs Super Saiyan and above for other fodder.

Not even talking about the other characters power scale where most of the people needed Goku or Vegeta to at least transform into Super Saiyan... Strangely in RoF against Freeza not.

Hell even Fat Buu who beat a guy Goku and Vegeta used Super Saiyan forms for... While Gotenks was way stronger than him

Or simply said... Final Form Freeza is weak, Beerus is not that great and Gotenks is a loser

Frost is stronger than Freeza in all other forms except golden. Not sure why this is hard to believe. The same with any other character you named.

Also, we only seen Fat Buu fight Basil who was the weakest of the three brothers and base form Goku when he was slim, which was a friendly sparring match.

[Draconic]

Why not use SSG on U9 and Kale instead of wasting stamina on SSB?

Can people stop saying this? Staying in the form consumes stamina, because it's a transformation. It basically puts pressure on the body. You can handle that pressure for a quick fight, but you are going to get tired the more you stay in it.

Think of it like someone climbing on your back. You can hold them fine at first, but the more they stay there the more tired you'll get. If they get down, you can get on with your business and won't have any problem holding them again when they jump on your back 20 minutes later.
In what situation do you think you'd get more tired: 1. You carry someone for 20 minutes; 2. You carry someone 5 minutes, recover for 10, then carry them 5 minutes again; ? It's still the same interval of time, but the difference is obvious.

What do people think stamina is? Basically a bar like in Xenoverse? Where you deplete one the moment you transform? That's not how this works at all.

[Tombstone1988]

Bringing back Super Saiyan God with no explanation other than the assumption of "he could always do it" kind of makes certain scenes in the past look a bit more silly retroactively, if you think about it.

-When Goku fought Hit, if he wanted to conserve stamina by not going SSB right away but knew Hit was a strong opponent, wouldn't SSG have been a logical middle ground? Goku figuring out the Time Skip ability and getting a few hits in makes a lot more sense for a SSG Goku rather than a base Goku, as well.
-When he sparred with 17, he jumped to SSB even though he "didn't intend to." If SSG was an option, shouldn't that have been his next step? The only other explanation would be 17 is actually stronger than SSG as well, meaning SSB was necessary and 17 is actually MUCH stronger than some of us may have given him credit for (which seems like a pretty big stretch, in my opinion).
-If he needed a bit more power than Super Saiyan to knock out the wolf trio when he did a Final Kamehameha with Vegeta, shouldn't he/they have gone SSG instead of SSB? That episode (episode 98) was the one where they really started to hammer in the "SSB is very stamina intensive" gig, so SSG would have been the smarter transformation to use there, right?
-If Goku can instantly flip from SSG to SSB, wouldn't that have made sense to use for the sequence with Kale? Have Goku start off as SSG firing a Kamehameha and then, as she starts to walk through it, have him go SSB to signify he's putting in more power. It would certainly get the point across better than what they actually did, in my opinion.

Just a few examples I thought of off the top of my head. Whether you agree or disagree with some/all of my hypotheticals, it doesn't really change the fact that bringing back SSG without a proper explanation leaves a lot of muddy waters, particularly when it comes to judging the strength of various characters. I know quite well that bringing the form back is more of a marketing ploy than anything, but it still could have used at least a line or two of explanation.

[Ki Breaker]

So Dyspo is stronger then SSG Goku and his faster then Goku and Hit, but his fighting style is to predicatable as he's to used to his speed being his trump card.

Edit: Also his super speed allows him to punch above his weight class much like the Flash.

How is he stronger?
Goku never said anything about his strength, only his speed, that's what makes him troublesome..

Also, what do you know, Lord Frieza, your Justice loving team just got their justice slapped out of them

for the sirt part I go back to my edit, Also his super speed allows him to punch above his weight class much like the Flash.

Much like Flash and many other speedsters, his speed greatly increases the damage of his punchs. While his fighting style is predictable, He's punchs were more then powerful enough to hurt Hit and Goku used Blue to attack him. And considering how beat up SSG Goku was befor they switched, Dyspo can out match the form. Hit is better suited to fight Dyspo due to his intagability ability.

To the second point, yes they did. But I its not some major issue as I support them for fun and the fact their not all big badasses is not an issue. If it were people would not be fans of Krillin. Plus when Jiren curbstomps everyone....well it will make up for all this loss.

I too go back to my edit for this..
Super speed only applies when he is moving fast, and he can't move fast in succession, like hit pointed out, that would make hus attacks slower and hence weaker as well, Goku could block him easy because he dosen't hit too hard, only fast..

Second point, fair enough

[LowRyder2005]

Also, confirmation that 17, Toppo, Hit, Zamasu, Krillin and Golden Frieza are all at least lightspeed since they can keep up with blue, which is stronger than God.

In part. Zamas, Freeza and Toppo should/could be; Hit is right below that; Krillin can't match Blue already, since it's not like he can speed-blitz base Gohan, and #17 is up for debate, since both were suppressed and Goku can lower his SSB to levels comparable to Krillin's Kamehameha - which again, can't beat base Gohan - of all people.

Haven't seen the episode yet, but it looks like Goku's only using Super Saiyan God because it was a long fight. He could still go Blue and match weaker opponents for minor scuffles.

We saw the strong base several times like when he fought Slim Buu, when he tanked Piccolo's charged up attack, the same Piccolo that choked out Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, and seeing Freeza in base form waste everyone when he's stronger than ever and base form Goku was shown above him. And SBG never existed. It was a term created in Heroes, nothing more. The base form that fought Freeza, is just Goku's base form stronger than ever.

The rest is you just denying that certain characters can be so strong. They are. There's nothing more to say about it. Also, all Super Saiyan forms can be suppressed. This isn't some special trait of Blue. Goku had sex with Chi-Chi when he was a freaking Super Saiyan and she isn't dead.

I think you're quite literally the only person on the entire board who's still clinging to the "super strong one base" theory; and one of the very few in general.
Goku stopping Piccolo's attack is an outlier, and the attack is not representative of Piccolo's strength; unless you want to argue base Goku became over from 50 to 100 times stronger between the ep. 75 and ep. 96. The easiest deduction is that Piccolo charged up the attack just for show, which makes sense, given that he could've injured or killed base Goku. Goku fighting Fit Buu was nothing more than a play fight, and since Majin Buu stomped a powered-up opponent base Goku wouldn't beat at all in the tournament, the argument that Buu was the one who suppressed himself to a degree appears much more realistical.

* Base Gohan is weaker than his Buu arc self and he's stronger than base Goku, since Goku transforms to fight him. It would make him above SS3 Gotenks and stronger than his Ultimate form in Super Saiyan, already. Obviously can't be. Then :
* #18 lifts abnormally more than a base Goku who has no reason to hold and she's not stated to have become any stronger.
* Base Cabba is a weakling to base Vegeta.

Freeza is the best comparison, since he's base Goku tier to you. If you've been following the episodes, Freeza's never seen struggling against anyone when base Goku couldn't even beat the Trio by himself -- you know, he couldn't beat one of those guys who couldn't do crap to Mr. Buu even after a further power-up that could have made him dozens of times stronger, for all we know. By the way, Freeza also curbstomps Napapa without even trying, who's in leagues with Super Saiyan Caulifla (or at least stronger than her base form) who's again almost certainly above base Goku -- especially if we follow your line of logic which puts the U6 contenders at around the base strength of the U7's Saiyans.
In short, Freeza is portrayed as far above base Goku and apparently everyone else - bar the big shots - even without the Golden form, Goku struggles against the Trio De Danger who are from the weakest universe, at least one of them is below Mr. Buu.
The only thing that's expressly stated is that he increased the power of his Golden Form in Hell; Goku sees regular Freeza and doesn't ever comment about him getting stronger.

In short, the only occasion in which they appear really strong in base form, if you put things in context, is against Gotenks and maybe Beerus-Monaka. Which accounts for one serious fight and a gag fight. There are many and theories that address the Gotenks' one, but in general terms, starting from the Trunks arc they've been consistently been portrayed as weaker than the likes of #18 and Buu.

tl;dr The other guy is right. It might be just about time you started re-evaluting your entire position.

[apex_pretador]

Also, confirmation that 17, Toppo, Hit, Zamasu, Krillin and Golden Frieza are all at least lightspeed since they can keep up with blue, which is stronger than God.

In part. Zamas, Freeza and Toppo should/could be; Hit is right below that; Krillin can't match Blue already, since it's not like he can speed-blitz base Gohan, and #17 is up for debate, since both were suppressed and Goku can lower his SSB to levels comparable to Krillin's Kamehameha - which again, can't beat base Gohan - of all people.

Haven't seen the episode yet, but it looks like Goku's only using Super Saiyan God because it was a long fight. He could still go Blue and match weaker opponents for minor scuffles.

This. The fight could've lasted much, much longer. As for #17, I think his fight with ribanne makes things clear. #17 = Ribanne >= SSVegeta

[AvatarReiko]

So Dyspo is stronger then SSG Goku and his faster then Goku and Hit, but his fighting style is to predicatable as he's to used to his speed being his trump card.

Edit: Also his super speed allows him to punch above his weight class much like the Flash.

How is he stronger?
Goku never said anything about his strength, only his speed, that's what makes him troublesome..
Super speed only applies when he is moving fast, and he can't move fast in succession, like hit pointed out, that would make hus attacks slower and hence weaker as well, Goku could block him easy because he dosen't hit too hard, only fast..

Also, what do you know, Lord Frieza, your Justice loving team just got their justice slapped out of them

Speed is the single most important attribute and factor in any fight. What good is strength and power if you can neither dodge or hit your opponent.