People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

[HeroR]

It was since Gohan was literally the only person who could have beaten Cell. Goku couldn't do it and he was the strongest next to Gohan. It wasn't "Goku-specific gesture of father love by giving Gohan", it was literally their only way to win.

What about giving Cell the senzu? What could make Goku's priorities (and the fact that the earth's safety was further down the list) clearer than that? Yes, Gohan was the only one that stood a real chance of winning, he was right about that. That was never the issue. What people call attention to when mentioning this scene is his careless attitude towards the whole predicament.

What makes a person 'likable' is subjective. For example, Goku is still the most popular character in Dragon Ball by a large margin despite how he acts in Super, so he still remains likable to a lot of people. People like Cell Saga Vegeta, which makes him 'likable' on some level, while I couldn't stand that version of Vegeta and wanted him to die in fire.

I'm pretty sure that nothing in Super could taint his overall likeability. Same as his popularity. I also like Goku overall, but that's mostly because of the original work. Personally, I don't mind his extended screen time, even when it's not his episode, I'm more concerned about the direction they're intending to take the character in.

He did that to have a fair fight. And he also wanted Cell to know that he was utterly defeated, pretty much the same thing he did to Freeze.

And what people usually call to attention is Goku not telling Gohan about his plan. He just blindly threw him into battle. In either case, the whole thing with Cell wasn't about Goku being battle hungry, but him misreading his son and not telling him what he was going to do.

We don't know where his character will go, but I doubt Goku will never changed in a major way. His love for battle has backfired several times, yet he still hasn't change. He's just as careless as ever. The only thing that will probably change is how people react around him.

[LowRyder2005]

He did that to have a fair fight. And he also wanted Cell to know that he was utterly defeated, pretty much the same thing he did to Freeza.

Uhm... You're not really going against his point, y'know? So, he prioritized having a fair fight with Cell over the well-being of the planet. Good, because that's, like, exactly what the person you're discussing with is saying to you.

[HeroR]

He did that to have a fair fight. And he also wanted Cell to know that he was utterly defeated, pretty much the same thing he did to Freeza.

Uhm... You're not really going against his point, y'know? So, he prioritized having a fair fight with Cell over the well-being of the planet. Good, because that's, like, exactly what the person you're discussing with is saying to you.

Person above me was talking about Goku being battle craze when he chose Gohan to fight Cell. I never said anything about Goku putting the planet first. He did in the sense that he realized only Gohan could save them, but he's still a blood knight.

[LowRyder2005]

He did that to have a fair fight. And he also wanted Cell to know that he was utterly defeated, pretty much the same thing he did to Freeza.

Uhm... You're not really going against his point, y'know? So, he prioritized having a fair fight with Cell over the well-being of the planet. Good, because that's, like, exactly what the person you're discussing with is saying to you.

Person above me was talking about Goku being battle craze when he chose Gohan to fight Cell. I never said anything about Goku putting the planet first. He did in the sense that he realized only Gohan could save them, but he's still a blood knight.

I believe you slightly misunderstood his argument. The person above was describing Goku as first and foremost a battle-junkie, and that his skewed priorities regarding Cell's health (or the concept of a "fair fight between Cell and Gohan") compared to Earth's safety acted as a confirmation of his point; you answered that Goku wanted Gohan to have... a fair fight with Cell (instead of a "sligthly-tired Cell") as if the thing somehow contradicted him. It actually reinforces his argument; I mean, you're saying the exact same thing.

Your initial statement was that "Gohan fighting Goku was the only way to win", which is undoubtedly true but also pretty much unrelated to Goku's course of action in the Cell Game. Gohan fighting was the only way to win; replenishing Cell's stamina arguably was just a handicap he gave to his team because of some ideology on what a fight is all about, unless we want to argue Goku somehow thought it would fuel his goal of having Gohan awaken to his true power. Which is a quite a refined argument if not near-clairvoyance on Goku's part all in all, but I don't think it was what you meant in the beginning.

Actually, yeah, I'll stop interjecting and let it come from straight the horse's mouth. The entire thing has a tinge of Captain Obvious-ness.

[SaiyanGod117]

but him misreading his son and not telling him what he was going to do.

He didn't misread his son though, Toriyama made Gohan OOC.

[Michsi]

Uhm... You're not really going against his point, y'know? So, he prioritized having a fair fight with Cell over the well-being of the planet. Good, because that's, like, exactly what the person you're discussing with is saying to you.

Person above me was talking about Goku being battle craze when he chose Gohan to fight Cell. I never said anything about Goku putting the planet first. He did in the sense that he realized only Gohan could save them, but he's still a blood knight.

I believe you slightly misunderstood his argument. The person above was describing Goku as first and foremost a battle-junkie, and that his skewed priorities regarding Cell's health (or the concept of a "fair fight between Cell and Gohan") compared to Earth's safety acted as a confirmation of his point; you answered that Goku wanted Gohan to have... a fair fight with Cell (instead of a "sligthly-tired Cell") as if the thing somehow contradicted him. It actually reinforces his argument; I mean, you're saying the exact same thing.

Your initial statement was that "Gohan fighting Goku was the only way to win", which is undoubtedly true but also pretty much unrelated to Goku's course of action in the Cell Game. Gohan fighting was the only way to win; replenishing Cell's stamina arguably was just a handicap he gave to his team because of some ideology on what a fight is all about, unless we want to argue Goku somehow thought it would fuel his goal of having Gohan awaken to his true power. Which is a quite a refined argument if not near-clairvoyance on Goku's part all in all, but I don't think it was what you meant in the beginning.

Actually, yeah, I'll stop interjecting and let it come from straight the horse's mouth. The entire thing has a tinge of Captain Obvious-ness.

Exactly! Sums up what I wanted to say

but him misreading his son and not telling him what he was going to do.

He didn't misread his son though, Toriyama made Gohan OOC.

Oh dear, this again. I debated this point until I was blue in the face.Gohan wasn't OOC. He was just never put in that type of situation before or again. Goku's behavior was the catalyst for his inability to perform.

[SaiyanGod117]

You will have to elaborate a little bit more for me to understand your point.

[Michsi]

You will have to elaborate a little bit more for me to understand your point.

The Goku thing? Think it was summed it up pretty well in my previous post, but I'll try again, as succinctly as I can.(Because this is not the right thread and this has been already debated to hell and back)

Gohan, though possessing perhaps a small degree of legitimate interest in battle and pride in his abilities, had never shown to love fighting to the extent his father does, nor had he ever gone out of his way looking for a challenge. His bursts of anger only ever happened as a result of someone getting hurt, meaning his source of power came from his caring and compassionate nature, not his saiyan lust for battle. He went along quietly with Goku's idea because he was an obedient child and because had complete faith in his father. He knew he had to get angry, he knew he had it in him to defeat Cell, to the point that he warns even Cell about it. I think this is the part that people often misunderstand. He wasn't trying to talk Cell out of fighting, he was warning him that his rage will get him killed. It backfired because instead of dissuading him, Cell grew more intrigued. But why can't he get angry? Because Goku gave his opponent a senzu and deliberately increased the danger for his own son, all for the sake of a good, honest challenge. It's said plainly "he is wondering whether or not a fair fight means more to you that your own son's life"
People say OOC, but I think they ignore the circumstances that led up to Gohan's poor performance. Granted, it could have been handled better in terms of execution, but just because it was unusual doesn't mean it isn't understandable.

There, this cover basically all I have to say on the matter.

[SaiyanGod117]

I disagree, it seems like a stretch to me.

[TBMx]

And Goku making it all about other character's relationship with him instead of with each other is a big sign of Mary Sueism....... Every recruitment episode was about each character in question relates to Goku while other characters just waited and did nothing

This is how DB is written. It revolves around Goku's relationship with other characters.

Take away Goku what type of connection does Gohan have with Vegeta, Tien, Roshi, 18, Frieza, or 17 Very little to none

Take away Goku what type of connection does Vegeta have with Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin, etc Very little to none.

The only connection a lot of the main cast has with each other is Goku.

That defeats the purpose of a Battle Royale. May as well just have it be like this then:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPsEdQ9sWFY

[Michsi]

I disagree, it seems like a stretch to me.

You come to write such long breakdowns because people just aren't satisfied with "Gentle kid is more sad than mad when father deliberately puts him in danger" even though it's practically spelled out in the story too. Just because a characters don't behave how readers want them to, doesn't automatically mean it's OOC?

[Daimo-Rukiri]

Goku has had the same story since well...the start, absolutely nothing has changed at all
He just want's to fight strong guys, he's recklessly entered fights in the past so why stop now?

[TekTheNinja]

This whole arc has almost seemed like a character study of Goku. Going more into detail with his Saiyan side and fighting addiction then ever before. To the point where he doesn't even care about killing other Universes. I highly doubt Goku being so selfish is played for laughs, at the end of this arc Goku's carelessness will be addressed in some form, and if it isn't I'll admit I was wrong. Either way why are we judging this arc in the middle of it? Midway through the Namek arc you can complain about the lack of Goku, midway through the Saiyan arc you can complain about the lack of Goku. All topics like this do is yet again remind us of how different it is watching Dragon Ball weekly as opposed to daily or marathoning like so many of us did with Z.

Well to the first point, it's a pretty bad character study seeing as he's so flanderized in this arc that he hardly seems like Goku at all, and to the second, yes we are judging the arc before it's over, but Super doesn't exactly have the best track record when it comes to character relevancy, so can you really blame us? I mean just look at the Universe 6 Tournament arc. Three of the characters hyped of for universe 7 were practically not even there. Also, the way the current arc is going doesn't exactly inspire any hope.

[TekTheNinja]

And Goku making it all about other character's relationship with him instead of with each other is a big sign of Mary Sueism....... Every recruitment episode was about each character in question relates to Goku while other characters just waited and did nothing

This is how DB is written. It revolves around Goku's relationship with other characters.

Take away Goku what type of connection does Gohan have with Vegeta, Tien, Roshi, 18, Frieza, or 17 Very little to none

Take away Goku what type of connection does Vegeta have with Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin, etc Very little to none.

The only connection a lot of the main cast has with each other is Goku.

No, this is only how DBS and to an extent, GT are written. The characters had plenty of interaction and development with each other in prior series. Writing everyone's personality, motivation, and personal connections around the main character is objectively bad writing.

[Jigurashi]

This whole arc has almost seemed like a character study of Goku. Going more into detail with his Saiyan side and fighting addiction then ever before. To the point where he doesn't even care about killing other Universes. I highly doubt Goku being so selfish is played for laughs, at the end of this arc Goku's carelessness will be addressed in some form, and if it isn't I'll admit I was wrong. Either way why are we judging this arc in the middle of it? Midway through the Namek arc you can complain about the lack of Goku, midway through the Saiyan arc you can complain about the lack of Goku. All topics like this do is yet again remind us of how different it is watching Dragon Ball weekly as opposed to daily or marathoning like so many of us did with Z.

Well to the first point, it's a pretty bad character study seeing as he's so flanderized in this arc that he hardly seems like Goku at all, and to the second, yes we are judging the arc before it's over, but Super doesn't exactly have the best track record when it comes to character relevancy, so can you really blame us? I mean just look at the Universe 6 Tournament arc. Three of the characters hyped of for universe 7 were practically not even there. Also, the way the current arc is going doesn't exactly inspire any hope.

What exactly makes him flanderized in this saga? He seems perfectly likely Goku this saga a lot more so compared to others.

[TekTheNinja]

This whole arc has almost seemed like a character study of Goku. Going more into detail with his Saiyan side and fighting addiction then ever before. To the point where he doesn't even care about killing other Universes. I highly doubt Goku being so selfish is played for laughs, at the end of this arc Goku's carelessness will be addressed in some form, and if it isn't I'll admit I was wrong. Either way why are we judging this arc in the middle of it? Midway through the Namek arc you can complain about the lack of Goku, midway through the Saiyan arc you can complain about the lack of Goku. All topics like this do is yet again remind us of how different it is watching Dragon Ball weekly as opposed to daily or marathoning like so many of us did with Z.

Well to the first point, it's a pretty bad character study seeing as he's so flanderized in this arc that he hardly seems like Goku at all, and to the second, yes we are judging the arc before it's over, but Super doesn't exactly have the best track record when it comes to character relevancy, so can you really blame us? I mean just look at the Universe 6 Tournament arc. Three of the characters hyped of for universe 7 were practically not even there. Also, the way the current arc is going doesn't exactly inspire any hope.

What exactly makes him flanderized in this saga? He seems perfectly likely Goku this saga a lot more so compared to others.

Mostly: He's pretty much an ass to all of his friends, and in general an ass. He doesn't give a shit about anything that's happening. It's a serious situation and he's acting like it's all fun and games. Before Super, he treated serious situations in at least a MOSTLY serious manner. He should be pissed that he's even in this situation at all. Toppo's deduction that he is "evil" isn't too far off.

[Michsi]

Mostly: He's pretty much an ass to all of his friends, and in general an ass. He doesn't give a shit about anything that's happening. It's a serious situation and he's acting like it's all fun and games. Before Super, he treated serious situations in at least a MOSTLY serious manner. He should be pissed that he's even in this situation at all. Toppo's deduction that he is "evil" isn't too far off.

My guess is that this is Toei trying to implement the author's original view of Goku, in that "he doesn't fight for others, he is in it for himself mostly". I think Toriyama called them out on Goku's portrayal in DBZ and now they're compensating. Problem is, they might be overdoing it a little. Even in the manga, Goku showed some semblance of remorse occasionally.

Edit: Oops, already made this very point in this very thread. Damn, old age....

[SsjCookie]

Well to the first point, it's a pretty bad character study seeing as he's so flanderized in this arc that he hardly seems like Goku at all, and to the second, yes we are judging the arc before it's over, but Super doesn't exactly have the best track record when it comes to character relevancy, so can you really blame us? I mean just look at the Universe 6 Tournament arc. Three of the characters hyped of for universe 7 were practically not even there. Also, the way the current arc is going doesn't exactly inspire any hope.

What exactly makes him flanderized in this saga? He seems perfectly likely Goku this saga a lot more so compared to others.

Mostly: He's pretty much an ass to all of his friends, and in general an ass. He doesn't give a shit about anything that's happening. It's a serious situation and he's acting like it's all fun and games. Before Super, he treated serious situations in at least a MOSTLY serious manner. He should be pissed that he's even in this situation at all. Toppo's deduction that he is "evil" isn't too far off.

I used to like Goku, he wasn't my favourite but at least someone I could tolerate. I never watched Dragonball because of Goku but because of the other characters (Bulma, Yamcha, Krillin Piccolo etc)
Nowadays I can't stand the sight and sound of him.

Goku always was a bit of a doofus in DBZ, but he was never a trouble seeker, trouble found him instead.
Therein lies my problem with him really, in DBS he is deliberately LOOKING for trouble out of boredom, and endangering the lives of billions just for his selfish pleasure.
And It doesn't matter that they can probably wish then all back with the Dragonballs. (only IF they win by the way)
Goku's arrogance and overconfidence was once pointed out by Whis as his biggest weakness, I wonder if it will bite him in the ass eventually.(I hope it does)
Let someone else win the tournament for a change.

[Jigurashi]

Well to the first point, it's a pretty bad character study seeing as he's so flanderized in this arc that he hardly seems like Goku at all, and to the second, yes we are judging the arc before it's over, but Super doesn't exactly have the best track record when it comes to character relevancy, so can you really blame us? I mean just look at the Universe 6 Tournament arc. Three of the characters hyped of for universe 7 were practically not even there. Also, the way the current arc is going doesn't exactly inspire any hope.

What exactly makes him flanderized in this saga? He seems perfectly likely Goku this saga a lot more so compared to others.

Mostly: He's pretty much an ass to all of his friends, and in general an ass. He doesn't give a shit about anything that's happening. It's a serious situation and he's acting like it's all fun and games. Before Super, he treated serious situations in at least a MOSTLY serious manner. He should be pissed that he's even in this situation at all. Toppo's deduction that he is "evil" isn't too far off.

Not really sure how he's been more of an ass this saga to his friends. Lying to his friends is really the only thing I can think of, but people only seem to being Goku up for that and excuse Gohan for it. He's been stupid at times this saga for sure, but outside of not caring for the stakes (which isn't a Goku only problem as that's how most characters seem to be reacting to the stakes), he's been written in character this saga. I agree that in Z he usually did take situations seriously most of the time from the get-go.

[Nickolaidas]

The Z fighter's fght against Nappa.
The last part of the fight against Vegeta.
A good amount of Namek.
Most of the android/Cell arc.
The middle part of the Buu arc.

Goku was unquestionablly the main character of DBZ but unlike Super's anime, he wasn't forced into everything and each of the other characters got their fair share of screen time. Thankfully the manga is following this writing style and isn't trying to be GT 2.0 like its anime counterpart.

Wanna know what I think?

Goku wasn't absent in those instances you mentioned because Toriyama wanted other characters to shine. He was absent in order to c*&k tease the readers and make them salivate for their glorious hero's inevitable return. He wanted them to go "Enough with those lame-os! When will Goku arrive to beat Piccolo? To beat Nappa? To beat Vegeta? To beat Frieza? To beat the androids? To beat Cell? To beat Boo?"

Goku was always the main focus of Dragon Ball, and I hated that. But it is what it is.

The other characters' function is to literally fail in order to show how badass and amazing Goku is.

Goku one-shotted Recoome when everyone else was literally fighting him tooth and nail for 3-4 episodes. What was the point? Why save Recoome for Goku when Goku can beat him with one punch? Simple. To show us how A-MAZING he is compared to the other weaklings. Why one-shot Drum when Tien could've beaten him and fall to Daimaoh (since Daimaoh *was* Goku's prey)? To show us how badass he is compared to that weakling, Tien. Why *literally* kill the entire fighting cast by Nappa, only to humiliate him with Goku without breaking a sweat? To show us how amazing he is compared to the other weaklings. Why give a supposedly amazing match between SSJ2 Goku and Majin SSJ2 Vegeta, only to reveal us later on that Goku was toying with his 'rival' and could one-shot him whenever he wanted by going SSJ3? Oh yeah, that's right - so that he could show us how fucking awesome he is.

In the original DragonBall, the entire cast is basically used as cheerleaders whenever Goku fought. To cry when he's hurt, to laugh when he wins. That's it. His fucking cheerleaders.

The android saga confused the readers and made them believe this is some kind of Avengers comic book where everyone gets a chance to shine. This isn't the case. It was just the exception that made the rule.