How strong is Kaioshin?

[Humpski]

Topic.
Simple question, not sure if we'll be able to determine an answer.

[caejones]

Easily capable of defeating the one we call Freeza.
Crap, that screws up my understanding of kilis.
Well, judging by what we saw... between Freeza and Cell, probably like Mirai Trunks level or something.

[suomipoika]

I think that he is as strong as perfect cell.

[Humpski]

I think he's probably somewhere between a Super Saiya-jin and Cell.

Maybe as strong as #17? Possibly even #16?

[Xyex]

He's close to, but not quite as strong as, SSJ2 Gohan (at the world tournament). He was able to restrain Gohan to allow Spoppovitch and Yamu to drain him so their powers have to be close.

[Humpski]

He's close to, but not quite as strong as, SSJ2 Gohan (at the world tournament). He was able to restrain Gohan to allow Spoppovitch and Yamu to drain him so their powers have to be close.

That's pretty strong. I wish he fought more.

[caejones]

Well, does telekinesis require that he's just as strong?Maybe it uses a different kind of strength (I.E, Kaioshin is mentally strong, but physically weak?)?

Though yeah... Sounds like maybe USSJ Trunks?


On that note, I'm starting to think my previous idea of kilis as 1000 normal power units must be off (unless we say Goku was only 15 million on Namek... but still...). So depending on the 0s and assuming the conversion is a power of 10 instead of something more confusing (and therefore more realistic ), 1 kili would be like... 10000? (800*10000=8000000?). No ... dangit! 100,000? *headdesk*
Screw Kilis.

But Kaioshin did last about as long as Gohan against Fat Buu if that means anything? (Though I don't think it does considering the way Fat Buu plays...)

[Duo]

Far as the Manga goes, Gohan only fought Majin Boo as a Level 1 Super Saiya'jin.

There's no indicator as to what the Kaioshin's strength is, but we know that holding down Gohan was a feat of magic, much like Babidi exploding Spopovich, so as far as I'm concerned, it reveals nothing but the fact that Kaioshin knows how to use strong magic.

I don't really have -much- of an opinion on his strength, but if I had to throw a guess out there, I'd say around Artificial Human #17?

[Xyex]

Well, does telekinesis require that he's just as strong?Maybe it uses a different kind of strength (I.E, Kaioshin is mentally strong, but physically weak?)?

Chaotzu couldn't hold Nappa.

There's no indicator as to what the Kaioshin's strength is, but we know that holding down Gohan was a feat of magic, much like Babidi exploding Spopovich, so as far as I'm concerned, it reveals nothing but the fact that Kaioshin knows how to use strong magic.

It's never said that the Supreme Kai used magic to hold Gohan. Or even hinted at. However, by his reaction to how much trouble he has restraining him, it is evidenced he's using his own strength to hold him.

I don't really have -much- of an opinion on his strength, but if I had to throw a guess out there, I'd say around Artificial Human #17?

Why do people insist on him having to be so weak when the evidence indicates differently?

[Duo]

The four Kaio sealed Bojack, didn't they?

Oh crap, I just cited a movie...

I call him "so weak" because all he ever does in combat is hit Fat Boo with a couple burst wave type attacks. In fact, that's the only attack we ever really see him do.

On top of that, he's considered to be excess baggage as a fighter (after fusing with Kibito mind you) and doesn't stick around against Chibi Boo - but Vegeta does? If Kaioshin were anywhere near an Ssj2 alone, and then you pile a Potara fusion on top of that, he would certainly be much more useful than Vegeta.

So he held Ssj2 Gohan down? Goku held Raditz down, and Goku was beaten and had broken ribs. All Raditz had was a bruised shoulder and that blow from Gohan.

I think I made my case well enough.

[Xyex]

The four Kaio sealed Bojack, didn't they?

Oh crap, I just cited a movie...

Yes. Yes you did.

I call him "so weak" because all he ever does in combat is hit Fat Boo with a couple burst wave type attacks. In fact, that's the only attack we ever really see him do.

True, we don't see him do much, but SSJ2 was already outclassed at this point and if the weakest SSJ2 can't do anything what good is someone weaker than that going to be?

On top of that, he's considered to be excess baggage as a fighter (after fusing with Kibito mind you) and doesn't stick around against Chibi Boo - but Vegeta does? If Kaioshin were anywhere near an Ssj2 alone, and then you pile a Potara fusion on top of that, he would certainly be much more useful than Vegeta.

So obviously Gohan and Gotenks are also weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta as Vegeta opted not to have them come and help once they were revived. Also, we can't really say as to how Potara works for the Kais as opposed to mortals. Or have any indication of Kibito's power. Kibito I could see at or around 18's strength. So even with a fusion he's not really going to make that much of a difference in the Supreme Kai's strength.

Also note that the only time he offered to help in a battle was against Super Buu2, which is when it was said he'd be no help. Judging from the fact I put him as weaker than SSJ2 Gohan, to the point he's barely able to restrain him, I don't really see a fusion of him and Kibito ammounting to much. Maybe at or around SSJ2 Vegeta's power but we saw how much help Vegeta was in the battle so there would have been no reason for Kibitokai to stick around either.

So he held Ssj2 Gohan down? Goku held Raditz down, and Goku was beaten and had broken ribs. All Raditz had was a bruised shoulder and that blow from Gohan.

I think I made my case well enough.

Raditz was pretty badly damaged from that blow from Gohan. It was a completely undefend and unprotected hit from someone who (IIRC) was stronger than him. Raditz even as much as said the blow's weakened him a lot and he can't generate the strength to throw Goku off of him.

[Kak]

After Piccolo withdraws from the fight in the Tenkaichi Budokai against him he says "Our dimensions are too different" meaning he's far too strong. He uses that as his reason for why he withdrew when he talks to Goku, which is kind of strange since Kaioshin isn't as strong as Goku or Vegeta yet Piccolo obviously was willing to try to fight them since he entered the tournament.

Although it was also because Piccolo found out he was someone extremely important during the "match", he's clearly quite a bit more powerful than Piccolo, and Piccolo at that point is probably around the strength of semi-perfect Cell.

[mAcChaos]

Nah, I thought it was because of his respect for the position, since he had Kami in him now.

[dchan316]

I have to agree with Duo that Kaioshin is probably about as strong as #17 or #18. Those two could take down Freeza quite easily as well. Also for the fact that he even considered Puipui and Yakon a threat. Babidi and Dabura are familiar with Kaioshin's strength, and they thought that Yakon would be able to handle things.

[Xyex]

I have to agree with Duo that Kaioshin is probably about as strong as #17 or #18. Those two could take down Freeza quite easily as well. Also for the fact that he even considered Puipui and Yakon a threat. Babidi and Dabura are familiar with Kaioshin's strength, and they thought that Yakon would be able to handle things.

The Supreme Kai supremely sucks at sensing powerlevels. This much is evidenced by his utter lack of knowledge of the Z Fighters powers until they outright show him their strength. All he knew of Pui Pui and Yakon is that they were Majins that Babidi had in his control and were therefor dangerous.

As for Yakon. Well, duh. It took an SSJ2 Goku to take out Yakon. So of course he's stronger than the Supreme Kai.

[dchan316]

I wouldn't say that he sucks at sensing battle power, but is rather unaware of the advanced forms of Super Saiyan that Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta have achieved.

And as for Yakon, he couldn't even land a hit on Goku in his base form, even in the dark. It seems more like Goku wanted to show off a bit, that he could use Yakon's strength against him.

Anyway, #17 and #18 are among the strongest in the universe, I would hardly call being at their level weak.

[Xyex]

I wouldn't say that he sucks at sensing battle power, but is rather unaware of the advanced forms of Super Saiyan that Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta have achieved.

He couldn't even tell how powerful they were in base form or he wouldn't have been worried about Pui Pui.

And as for Yakon, he couldn't even land a hit on Goku in his base form, even in the dark. It seems more like Goku wanted to show off a bit, that he could use Yakon's strength against him.

And since when does Goku need to see someone to know where they are? And Goku didn't want to 'show off', Goku doesn't show off. He wanted to feed Yakon more power than he could 'eat' and so he transformed to a level high enough to do just that.

Anyway, #17 and #18 are among the strongest in the universe, I would hardly call being at their level weak.

When talking about the strongest of all gods? Again, I could see Kibito around that level, or even weaker. Hell, he could be only as powerful as Raditz for all we know, since he never fights anyone, but the Supreme Kai is another matter.

That's awfully weak for the person who's supposed to be the most poweful god there is, even if he was one of the weaker (or was he weakest?) of the four. Especially when you have to consider Dabura. If Dabura's around Super Perfect Cell's level and the Supreme Kai is around 17's, then why hasn't Dabura just killed him and taken over Otherworld, theere wouldn't have been anything to stop him. He hasn't always been under Babidi's control.

At the weakest I can see him as comparable to Perfect Cell.

[Professor Daravon]

There's a range that Kaioshin might exist in. At the low end is Mirai Trunks when he kills Freeza, at the high end Mirai Trunks or Vegeta at the Cell Game. Kaioshin states that he is strong enough to take down Freeza with a single blow, which is about what Trunks does (all right, Trunks does it in two blows, one with a sword, but still). When Goku sizes up Doubler, he says he's about as strong as Cell; both Kaioshin and Kibit seem to believe they can't match up against him, and we see that Kibit at least clearly can't. Obviously this is a pretty huge range of power, but it's hard to pin him down much more accurately.

I think that in placing Kaioshin at roughly the same strength as Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan at the Tenkaichi Budokai, Xyex is using some flawed reasoning. There are definitely techniques used throughout the series that allow a fighter of substantially lower power affect someone stronger -- for instance, Kuririn maims Freeza with a Kienzan. I've never thought that Kaioshin's ability to restrain Gohan was indicative of nearly equal power; in fact, his astonishment at Gohan's power and his line that he's not sure he'll be able to contain it suggest to me that Gohan is far beyond him. Furthermore, it takes Super Saiya-jin Gohan only a minute (albeit, with some effort) to pull out the Zetto Sword, something that Kaioshin had never been able to accomplish.

There is also a flaw in the reasoning regarding why Vegeta didn't want Gohan and Gotenks to come to Kaioshin Kai to help fight Boo. He had already set himself to the Genki Dama plan, and his idea was specifically to have the people of Earth help themselves for once. They aren't helping themselves if he just brings a few more of his friends to come do all the fighting.

If Dabura's around Cell's level and the Supreme Kai is around 17's, then why hasn't Dabura just killed him and taken over Otherworld, theere wouldn't have been anything to stop him. He hasn't always been under Babidi's control.

Who says he's had the opportunity? Even Kaio says he's never met Kaioshin. Clearly he's not the easiest guy to get ahold of. And we never see anyone travel to Kaioshin Kai except via Shunkan Idou. If Doubler doesn't know how to teleport, can we even confidently surmise that he can get to Kaioshin Kai? I certainly think that if Kaioshin is powerful enough to kill Doubler, he wouldn't be so terrified at the revelation that Doubler's in league with Babidi.

There is really very little evidence that Kaioshin possesses any significant strength by Boo saga standards. Like I said, he most likely falls somewhere between Trunks vs. Freeza and Trunks/Vegeta at the Cell Game. Pegging him at a power similar to the Artificial Humans is fair, albeit somewhat arbitrary.

[Xyex]

I think that in placing Kaioshin at roughly the same strength as Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan at the Tenkaichi Budokai, Xyex is using some flawed reasoning. There are definitely techniques used throughout the series that allow a fighter of substantially lower power affect someone stronger -- for instance, Kuririn maims Freeza with a Kienzan.

Which is shown in the manga to be something that doesn't fail, unlike the Supreme Kai's worries about his hold on Gohan. And again, I didn't mean to say that they could fight on even ground. I don't deny that he could be using a special technique that lets him restrain those a degree or two stronger than him. I also don't deny that if Gohan wanted to he could have probably beat him without much concnetrated effort.

But this doesn't mean that the Supreme Kai is that much weaker then him, or as low in power as the Cyborgs (or even lower, as you suggest as possible). And Cell Games Trunks and Vegeta's powers really wouldn't be that far off from my own stated opinion on the Supreme Kai's power. That would be realtively around Perfect Cell's strength as Trunks already demonstrated that he is infact stronger than Perfect Cell in his SSJU2 form.

I've never thought that Kaioshin's ability to restrain Gohan was indicative of nearly equal power; in fact, his astonishment at Gohan's power and his line that he's not sure he'll be able to contain it suggest to me that Gohan is far beyond him.

And I didn't say they were "nearly equal". But if Gohan were 'far beyond him' he wouldn't be able to contain him at all. Notice he made no such attempts against Dabura. His suprise at Gohan's power and concerns of maintaining his hold on him prove that Gohan is stronger, but the fact he could hold him at all proves that the gap isn't a chasm where you can't see one side from the other.

Furthermore, it takes Super Saiya-jin Gohan only a minute (albeit, with some effort) to pull out the Zetto Sword, something that Kaioshin had never been able to accomplish.

Again, this goes back to my previous point. The Supreme Kai is weaker than Gohan, we all agree on that. Thefore it's not really an issue if he couldn't pull out the Z sword but Gohan could. Unless trying to go the route of base Gohan being stronger than the Supreme Kai which just trails off into the realms of stupid absurdities. >.>

There is also a flaw in the reasoning regarding why Vegeta didn't want Gohan and Gotenks to come to Kaioshin Kai to help fight Boo. He had already set himself to the Genki Dama plan, and his idea was specifically to have the people of Earth help themselves for once. They aren't helping themselves if he just brings a few more of his friends to come do all the fighting.

And how, pray tell, is that a flaw? It's reason Vegeta chose his selected actions. No more different than a reason the Supreme Kai chose his selected action. Knowing he could not match Kid Buu he elected to leave and let Goku deal with him without worry of injuring him in the battle. Meanwhile Vegeta's Saiya-jin blood made him decide to stay and try his hand at fighting Buu dispite the power discrepency between them.

Thus the arguement I made stands. The Supreme Kai had a purpose for not staying just as Vegeta had a purpose for not having Gohan or Gotenks come to finish Buu. Claiming a power several degrees weaker than Vegeta's based on this information would require doing the same for Gohan and Gotenks. I was merely pointing out that there are other reasons for not being involved in the battle than not being strong enough.

Who says he's had the opportunity? Even Kaio says he's never met Kaioshin. Clearly he's not the easiest guy to get ahold of. And we never see anyone travel to Kaioshin Kai except via Shunkan Idou. If Doubler doesn't know how to teleport, can we even confidently surmise that he can get to Kaioshin Kai? I certainly think that if Kaioshin is powerful enough to kill Doubler, he wouldn't be so terrified at the revelation that Doubler's in league with Babidi.

And why would Dabura even have to go find the Supreme Kai? Last I checked Babidi didn't go looking for the Supreme Kai so he could have Buu kill him, the Supreme Kai came to him. All Dabura would have to do is start causing destruction. With the Supreme Kai as the strongest Kai he'd be the only one who could show up to try and stop him. It's not really a complicated concept.

There is really very little evidence that Kaioshin possesses any significant strength by Boo saga standards. Like I said, he most likely falls somewhere between Trunks vs. Freeza and Trunks/Vegeta at the Cell Game. Pegging him at a power similar to the Artificial Humans is fair, albeit somewhat arbitrary.

Except what he does display, and his position in Otherworld, evidence him as being stronger than them. As does the fact that if it were that easy to make machines as strong as the Supreme Kai then he'd be used to being surpassed in power. And, as I said before, the end of your scale matches my selected range anyway, so I fail to even see why you countered my points?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I would probably put Kaioshin power around Semi-Perfect Cell's power. The reason why is because he really doesn't come off as strong. Sure, he made the statement about Freeza, and he scared Piccolo, somewhat. But, he suggested that they all should gang up on Pui-Pui, who was easily beaten by regular Vegeta.

He also thought none of the Z-warriors had a chance against Dabura. So, that tell's me that he definitely can't be around Perfect Cell's level of power, or anything higher.