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Then how come he says he's superior to Goku before fighting Goku black for the last time?Lord Beerus wrote:
Vegeta still a guy that can still occasionally get angry and/or frustrated in some scenarios, like when Goku pulled off the SSJB/Kaioken combination technique,
but quickly understands and accepts the fact that there some thing that Goku can do that he can't,
Why's he saying he will last till the end and defeat Goku if he's accepted Goku's kaioken advantage?Pretty much this. the fact that people couldn't comprehend the development Vegeta went through in Super's 2nd episode boggled my mind and it still boggles my mind. Vegeta still accepted that Goku was better, but it didn't mean he's just gonna lag behind and do nothing. He still wanted to get stronger and Goku became somebody he strived to better than, but not out of malice or ill will. He's a goal and he full respects him as a fighter and even considers him his friend. Vegeta showing envy at times just comes with the character, but it's never Cell saga levels at all. or even most of the Boo arc levels. Vegeta now would NEVER sell his soul to become stronger.Kinokima wrote:Seeing Vegeta's character develop in Super is why despite its flaws I am really enjoying Super, way more than I expected and much more than the fandom seems to. Of course I binge watched the series and skipped most of the 1st 2 arcs after watching the movies so that probably helped color my perspective too. I actually had forgotten about Super after it first came out and wasn't licensed.
Then randomly 2 weeks ago I read that Vegeta's daughter was born in Super so I was only going to watch that episode. Then I ended up watching clips on youtube and then one thing lead to another and I ending up watching to the end of the Future Trunks saga this Labour Day weekend. So I am not exactly caught up but the scenes I have seen so far is stuff I never expected to get. Now I don't remember much about GT (except the mustache scene) but I do remember it didn't satisfy me as a Vegeta fan at all. I watched it once and that was enough. But I am loving every second of Super. Not just the Vegeta stuff but seeing all the wonderful character interaction.
A couple things I agree Vegeta still wanting to be stronger than Goku doesn't mean he digressed in character development at all. At the end of Buu saga he admitted Goku was stronger than him. Of course he always knew this deep down but finally admitting it was what was important. Vegeta wanting to strive to better himself in Super to be the best doesn't mean he forgot what he said in the Buu saga. The truth is it is because of Goku that Vegeta is as strong as he is. Vegeta says this himself in the resurrect Frieza arc.
Vegeta is always going to be a step behind Goku. Maybe there will be an arc where Vegeta finally defeats the main bad guy. But even if that happens it will only be an arc. Goku is always going to be the main hero. And that is perfectly fine. Look at Vegeta wanting to become stronger than the Goku the same in the way he tells Cabba and Future Trunks. You should want to surpass me even though it's not possible. This is how Vegeta thinks. Even if someone is better than you still to try to surpass them. Even if Vegeta knows he may never actually surpass Goku he is going to continue to push ahead and try. He's not giving up. This is what gives Vegeta strength. But in the past while trying to surpass Goku made him feel inferior and it was mixed with negative emotions. Here I see his struggle as something positive.
Of course that's not to say Vegeta hasn't completely gotten over Goku being better than him. It is pretty clear in the Trunks saga when Bulma was telling Chibi Trunks and Goten that Goku will defeat Black and didn't even mention Vegeta, Vegeta's pride was hurt. But this didn't stop him from working together with Goku and Future Trunks and putting everything into the fight to help Trunks. At one point he even said himself that he wasn't fighting for himself but for Trunks.
The other big thing in Super is we have quite a lot of family moments with Vegeta. I think a Vegeta who is there for his family (well in a Tsun way) is much cooler than the old Vegeta. Fighting and becoming stronger will always be important to Vegeta but now Super shows he has something else he takes pride in, his family. And while Vegeta still has issues with public displays of affection it is very obvious that his family has become very important to him. It is also obvious that after years of living on Earth he has also accepted some of Earth's norms about being a good husband (staying when your wife is pregnant) And no Vegeta listening to Bulma when she asks him for something doesn't mean he is her lapdog. He loves and admires her and the things she asks him are not unreasonable. Of course Bulma and Vegeta do argue because they both have fiery personalities. But he doesn't have to argue with her every single time. When she tells him to pick up Trunks and Goten on a planet she is right....
And for the most part I don't mind the humor (Vegeta cooking or singing) because Dragon Ball always had comedy. Vegeta wearing the pink shirt and yellow pants wasn't silly to you? I don't think Vegeta should be immune to a some gags and teasing. Okay some of it was too much for me (the pacifier scene) but for most part it is all par for the course with Dragon Ball. I think the humor is part of the series charm and it makes the characters more fun. Vegeta is no longer so uptight that his pride is going to be destroyed by a few gags. I wish some of his fans could see it this way too.
In the end I have always loved Vegeta as character but it was because he continued to develop and change from arc to arc. I don't want him to go back to the way he was. Any going back would be digression and would completely miss the point of the changes Vegeta went through in DBZ. Of course I didn't really need another Dragon Ball series but it is wonderful to see the fruits of the development that happened in DBZ. And yes I get there was some in GT too but for me at least the moments in GT didn't stand out as much. In Super there has been so many wonderful moments for Vegeta's character I wouldn't even know where to start in naming my favorites.
Cause Kaioken is the equivalent to an RPG magic potion that increases your strength temporarilyTBMx wrote:Then how come he says he's superior to Goku before fighting Goku black for the last time?Lord Beerus wrote:
Vegeta still a guy that can still occasionally get angry and/or frustrated in some scenarios, like when Goku pulled off the SSJB/Kaioken combination technique,
but quickly understands and accepts the fact that there some thing that Goku can do that he can't,
And it's always been like that.In Vegeta's first encounter with Kaioken he started off at double Goku's powerlevel (18,000 vs 9,000 approximately) and Goku could only go Kaioken x4 and he still overpowered Vegeta and forced him into Oozaru. Which Vegeta doesn't have now. Vegeta knows all this. He also knows that now his strength is about even with Goku, maybe a little superior but certainly not 2x as strong in SSB. And Goku can go up to Kaioken x10 as far as Vegeta knows. So it doesn't make sense that he would consider himself superior unless he had a way to neutralize Kaioken, but the writers refuse to give him any, making it look like Vegeta lacks basic critical thinking skills.Nero<>Akira wrote:Cause Kaioken is the equivalent to an RPG magic potion that increases your strength temporarilyTBMx wrote:Then how come he says he's superior to Goku before fighting Goku black for the last time?Lord Beerus wrote:
Vegeta still a guy that can still occasionally get angry and/or frustrated in some scenarios, like when Goku pulled off the SSJB/Kaioken combination technique,
but quickly understands and accepts the fact that there some thing that Goku can do that he can't,
Or maybe Vegeta just became really strong after training non-stop for nearly a whole year (one day) in the ROSAT? Just a hunch. I mean, the gap in strength between Goku and Vegeta in their SSJB forms in the anime is practically non-existent. It's only when Goku throws on the Kaioken on top of SSJB that a gap in strength between them is very much apparent.TBMx wrote:In Vegeta's first encounter with Kaioken he started off at double Goku's powerlevel (18,000 vs 9,000 approximately) and Goku could only go Kaioken x4 and he still overpowered Vegeta and forced him into Oozaru. Which Vegeta doesn't have now. Vegeta knows all this. He also knows that now his strength is about even with Goku, maybe a little superior but certainly not 2x as strong in SSB. And Goku can go up to Kaioken x10 as far as Vegeta knows. So it doesn't make sense that he would consider himself superior unless he had a way to neutralize Kaioken, but the writers refuse to give him any, making it look like Vegeta lacks basic critical thinking skills.Nero<>Akira wrote:Cause Kaioken is the equivalent to an RPG magic potion that increases your strength temporarilyTBMx wrote:
Then how come he says he's superior to Goku before fighting Goku black for the last time?
Still major milestones compared to anything Tien and Piccolo went through. My comparisons of the three characters in my earlier post basically sums things up in my opinion.Basako wrote:He didn't have much development, beside his huge power up to SSB.
He lives with his family, loves them, but doesn't show his feelings. His primary goal is to surpass Goku, which won't happen. He is kind of a jerk to others, but nobody really cares about that anymore. He is basically what we had by the end of the Boo arc, except the moment he admited Goku is the best, but that was just a weak moment.
Well, Piccolo does groceries with Chichi and Vegeta cooks for the gods out of fear like a coward, remember his behaviour in battle of gods? One thing is to be scared and other is to be terrified and actually embarrassing himself like some kind of servant. Then again, begging for training to Whis. Maybe he did have some development, he learned to drag like a worm in the ground.supercat wrote:Still major milestones compared to anything Tien and Piccolo went through. My comparisons of the three characters in my earlier post basically sums things up in my opinion.Basako wrote:He didn't have much development, beside his huge power up to SSB.
He lives with his family, loves them, but doesn't show his feelings. His primary goal is to surpass Goku, which won't happen. He is kind of a jerk to others, but nobody really cares about that anymore. He is basically what we had by the end of the Boo arc, except the moment he admited Goku is the best, but that was just a weak moment.
Tien - The insignificant loner who coaches more insignificant weaklings that'll probably add up to nothing. Attempts to win fights by running away, and hoping to score a few cheap shots in a cheesy and comical fashion, but still loses. Wasted years of training. Pathetic weakling was too scared to even let Gohan continue sparring. He really should have gone down when Narirama was on his rampage.
Piccolo - The babysitter that is forced to go grocery shopping with a woman whose husband doesn't even bother going shopping with. Attempts to win fights by running away, and hoping to score a few cheap shots in a cheesy and comical fashion, but still loses. Wasted years of training.
Vegeta - Discovered there is more to life than getting stronger, but still continues to grow in strength and reach new heights. Loved by his family and looked up to as a hero second only to Goku. Wins fights with sheer strength earned through dedication to training and doesn't have to rely on weakling tricks that only result in humiliation.
Vegeta cooking had a lot more on the line. It was either please Beerus or he loses his planet along with his family. Why should Piccolo have to listen to ChiChi? There was nothing on the line. It just shows how soft he's become. He takes crap from a woman whose husband barely bothers listening to.Basako wrote:Well, Piccolo does groceries with Chichi and Vegeta cooks for the gods out of fear like a coward, remember his behaviour in battle of gods? One thing is to be scared and other is to be terrified and actually embarrassing himself like some kind of servant. Then again, begging for training to Whis. Maybe he did have some development, he learned to drag like a worm in the ground.supercat wrote:Still major milestones compared to anything Tien and Piccolo went through. My comparisons of the three characters in my earlier post basically sums things up in my opinion.Basako wrote:He didn't have much development, beside his huge power up to SSB.
He lives with his family, loves them, but doesn't show his feelings. His primary goal is to surpass Goku, which won't happen. He is kind of a jerk to others, but nobody really cares about that anymore. He is basically what we had by the end of the Boo arc, except the moment he admited Goku is the best, but that was just a weak moment.
Tien - The insignificant loner who coaches more insignificant weaklings that'll probably add up to nothing. Attempts to win fights by running away, and hoping to score a few cheap shots in a cheesy and comical fashion, but still loses. Wasted years of training. Pathetic weakling was too scared to even let Gohan continue sparring. He really should have gone down when Narirama was on his rampage.
Piccolo - The babysitter that is forced to go grocery shopping with a woman whose husband doesn't even bother going shopping with. Attempts to win fights by running away, and hoping to score a few cheap shots in a cheesy and comical fashion, but still loses. Wasted years of training.
Vegeta - Discovered there is more to life than getting stronger, but still continues to grow in strength and reach new heights. Loved by his family and looked up to as a hero second only to Goku. Wins fights with sheer strength earned through dedication to training and doesn't have to rely on weakling tricks that only result in humiliation.
Tenshinhan has actually had some development, he is now a master himself with a dojo. He stopped competing with the saiyans by the Cell arc, so no development about that. He did save 16 and 18 from Cell in his second form, no matter how you paint it, only Krilin not deactivating the cyborg and Vegeta helping Cell allowed what happened next, but the guy did his part, against an enemy widely over him. If you ask me, he is being written awfully in Super, not just for the fights, also about his lines and his poses. That's just not him.
Piccolo, similar to Tenshinhan. He was left behind in the power scale and he accepts it. I wish Toriyama would give him a transformation to catch up, but seems unlikely. Too much protecting Gohan, it's like the only thing Toei has for him. It's a bit dissapointing how Toriyama did not even allow him to have a neat win in the Champa tournament, similar to Ten now, it's yet to see how he will end up in the tournament, the namekians could bring some development for him.
Exactly my point. I don't see why Vegeta discounts Kaioken when he calls himself superior as he does to this day. When in their first fight it was a deciding factor when the conditions were more favourable for Vegeta and less so for Goku than it is currently. As I already explained. He CANNOT defeat Goku as it stands because of kaioken. So why hes saying he will defeat Goku in the TOP? Is he hoping Goku shows mercy to him and doesn't use kaioken? That doesn't sound like Vegeta and what's the point of defeating someone who's sandbagging? Veget a would have to be 3x as strong as Goku in SSB to stand a realistic chance of defeating SSB Kaioken x 10Goku. Just based on the fact that when he was 2x as strong he could not defeat Kaioken x4. The point is to beat the guy in a fight, right? Not just brag that my SSB is bettah den urs!Lord Beerus wrote:Or maybe Vegeta just became really strong after training non-stop for nearly a whole year (one day) in the ROSAT? Just a hunch. I mean, the gap in strength between Goku and Vegeta in their SSJB forms in the anime is practically non-existent. It's only when Goku throws on the Kaioken on top of SSJB that a gap in strength between them is very much apparent.TBMx wrote:In Vegeta's first encounter with Kaioken he started off at double Goku's powerlevel (18,000 vs 9,000 approximately) and Goku could only go Kaioken x4 and he still overpowered Vegeta and forced him into Oozaru. Which Vegeta doesn't have now. Vegeta knows all this. He also knows that now his strength is about even with Goku, maybe a little superior but certainly not 2x as strong in SSB. And Goku can go up to Kaioken x10 as far as Vegeta knows. So it doesn't make sense that he would consider himself superior unless he had a way to neutralize Kaioken, but the writers refuse to give him any, making it look like Vegeta lacks basic critical thinking skills.Nero<>Akira wrote:
Cause Kaioken is the equivalent to an RPG magic potion that increases your strength temporarily
Yeah, well, but Piccolo did it because he wanted to and he didn't embarrass himself. Vegeta kissed the ground for Beerus, like a worm, and he did it again for Whis, this time there was no threat for the Earth. Must be his development.supercat wrote: Vegeta cooking had a lot more on the line. It was either please Beerus or he loses his planet along with his family. Why should Piccolo have to listen to ChiChi? There was nothing on the line. It just shows how soft he's become. He takes crap from a woman whose husband barely bothers listening to.
Tien's dojo is useless by Dragon Ball standards. But maybe someone like Hercule might find it impressive. Tien had one cool moment in DBZ, which was taking down Jeice and Burter. I guess the Cell thing was cool until he got his face shoved to the dirt. And being a master to a bunch of fodders who Raditz would probably laugh at isn't even worth mentioning. They might as well just show him training alone in the woods. At least then he wouldn't be associated with a bunch of weaklings.
Piccolo needs to stay away from those new Namekians or his weakness and overall wimpy nature will spread to them and ruin them before they even get a chance to shine. They should just face off against Goku, Vegeta, or Android 17. I would love to see some Namekians keeping up in SSB-tier so fighting these three would be great. Or you know what, showing them doing pretty well against Golden Frieza would be nice as well. All these scenarios would be far better than them somehow fighting evenly with a weakling like Piccolo and then showing him acknowledgement as a strong fighter. Piccolo's like the moldy fruit that hasn't been touched in weeks and the new Namekians are like freshly bought fruits. I would hate to see the mold spread.
Like I said multiple times in other posts. Piccolo, Tien, Yamcha, Krillin, and Roshi should all be separated. Piccolo standing with the Saiyans looks heck of a lot cooler than Piccolo posing with Tien, Yamcha, Krillin and Roshi. Piccolo's only place is by Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta. Although I would love to see him humbling before Frieza and working alongside him.
Basako wrote:Yeah, well, but Piccolo did it because he wanted to and he didn't embarrass himself. Vegeta kissed the ground for Beerus, like a worm, and he did it again for Whis, this time there was no threat for the Earth. Must be his development.supercat wrote: Vegeta cooking had a lot more on the line. It was either please Beerus or he loses his planet along with his family. Why should Piccolo have to listen to ChiChi? There was nothing on the line. It just shows how soft he's become. He takes crap from a woman whose husband barely bothers listening to.
Tien's dojo is useless by Dragon Ball standards. But maybe someone like Hercule might find it impressive. Tien had one cool moment in DBZ, which was taking down Jeice and Burter. I guess the Cell thing was cool until he got his face shoved to the dirt. And being a master to a bunch of fodders who Raditz would probably laugh at isn't even worth mentioning. They might as well just show him training alone in the woods. At least then he wouldn't be associated with a bunch of weaklings.
Piccolo needs to stay away from those new Namekians or his weakness and overall wimpy nature will spread to them and ruin them before they even get a chance to shine. They should just face off against Goku, Vegeta, or Android 17. I would love to see some Namekians keeping up in SSB-tier so fighting these three would be great. Or you know what, showing them doing pretty well against Golden Frieza would be nice as well. All these scenarios would be far better than them somehow fighting evenly with a weakling like Piccolo and then showing him acknowledgement as a strong fighter. Piccolo's like the moldy fruit that hasn't been touched in weeks and the new Namekians are like freshly bought fruits. I would hate to see the mold spread.
Like I said multiple times in other posts. Piccolo, Tien, Yamcha, Krillin, and Roshi should all be separated. Piccolo standing with the Saiyans looks heck of a lot cooler than Piccolo posing with Tien, Yamcha, Krillin and Roshi. Piccolo's only place is by Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta. Although I would love to see him humbling before Frieza and working alongside him.
Piccolo is not going to stay away from the namekians. We'll see where this goes, I don't think it's going to be about huge power levels, there is more in the world, but I hope it will be interesting, some expanding about namekians and maybe a cool non god tier fight.
Tenshinhan is obviously training earthlings, which is kind of limited itself. I said he had development, not that I liked it, it could have been better, frankly. His dojo thing looked kind of unoriginal and nothing special about his pupils, not fan of Yurin either. But he is a respected figure in the village.
Gonna say it again, all earthlings and Piccolo were left behind by the saiyans in the power scale, that's not even a discussion. Ten has respect in the village where his dojo is, that's fine. And it's a totally logic development for a character like him to become a master and train others, it's cool. Nothing wrong about that, Roshi is a master too. The writing about that could have been better though.supercat wrote: Vegeta may have cowered before Whis, but at least he got a lot out of it. He was being smart. Piccolo gains nothing out of going grocery shopping with ChiChi. I also doubt he wanted to go. It was more of him becoming a pushover who can no longer really stand up for himself. Basically shown when he backed out for Vegeta at the tournament.
The new Namekians should just smack Piccolo out of the ring, giving Piccolo motivation to train properly. And I mean actual training that actually results in something. Not just wasting time and making minuscule progress, but actually doing the kind of training that matters (training with Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, or Whis).
The rest of the new Namekia's screen time should go towards fighting someone SSB-tier: Goku, Vegeta, Android 17, or Frieza. Power levels are a huge in Dragon Ball, and are a key factor in staying relevant. If Piccolo's going to keep hide and seek like this, he should just humble himself before Frieza and work with him. I'm sure Frieza would love to have him as a right hand, since he sort of offered Nail the job before.
By real life standards, Tien is definitely respectable. But by Dragon Ball standards, having respect in a tiny village when there are several other universes out there isn't even worth talking about. Mentioning these things only reinforces how insignificant he is compared to the main characters.
It works quite well for Vegeta, considering who he was in the past. But Piccolo? He had one major role of importance in Dragon Ball, then come DBZ, he was immediately reduced to a fodder. It also seemed like he was rather quick to become this soft pushover compared to Vegeta, who didn't really change until the Buu saga. Piccolo's character became trash the minute he invited his wimpy counterpart to live within him. Sure, he got a power up, but at the expense of his proud attitude. It really wasn't worth it, because either way, Piccolo's irrelevant on the power scale now, so he might as well have stayed a bit weaker and kept his old personality. Then maybe he wouldn't have been pushed around the way he is. It's almost as if that wimpy parasites just weighing him down by sapping the cold nature out of him. It has to be, since the old Piccolo would just probably tell ChiChi to get lost.Kinokima wrote:Guys you do not need to bring down one character's development to show how another character is better. That is pointless.
When Piccolo goes grocery shopping it's meant as a gag. To see this stoic and strong character doing regular Earth things like shopping or baby sitting Pan is meant to be funny. That is all. If anything it shows that Piccolo has adjusted to a peaceful life on Earth and yes that is certainly character development from where he was at the start. Being at peace with yourself like that doesn't mean that Piccolo lost his warrior spirit.
With Vegeta when he did his little song and dance routine he was okay to throw away his pride to protect his family and Earth. The scene was funny but it was so much more than that. Then when Vegeta cooked for Whis that also showed his development. Because Vegeta was actually asking someone for help to get stronger. Before Vegeta would never accept help from someone else. But to humble himself like that shows he has learned that there are other people he can learn from who can help him got stronger.
If someone just turned on Super now for the first time they wouldn't understand the significance of these scenes with Piccolo and Vegeta. They didn't see where these characters have started. But for the fans who knew where they were from the start there changes throughout the series are amazing.
So it's like this. Vegeta has room to lose dignity like he did because you like him and Piccolo developing a relation with Gohan and his family makes him a horrible character because you dislike him. How convenient, if we just changed the roles with the exact same actions, you would say that Vegeta is great for caring for his family and that Piccolo is a coward for behaving like that with Whis and Beerus. You know it's true.supercat wrote: It works quite well for Vegeta, considering who he was in the past. But Piccolo? He had one major role of importance in Dragon Ball, then come DBZ, he was immediately reduced to a fodder. It also seemed like he was rather quick to become this soft pushover compared to Vegeta, who didn't really change until the Buu saga. Piccolo's character became trash the minute he invited his wimpy counterpart to live within him. Sure, he got a power up, but at the expense of his proud attitude. It really wasn't worth it, because either way, Piccolo's irrelevant on the power scale now, so he might as well have stayed a bit weaker and kept his old personality. Then maybe he wouldn't have been pushed around the way he is. It's almost as if that wimpy parasites just weighing him down by sapping the cold nature out of him. It has to be, since the old Piccolo would just probably tell ChiChi to get lost.
Vegeta has room to fool around and get pushed around by his wife. Why? Because no matter how much of that stuff he has to go through, it won't devalue how amazing of a character he is. It took so much effort and work on his part to become who he is today. Piccolo on the other hand was probably a softy right from the start. If this were King Piccolo, it'd be a different story.
It has nothing to do with me favoring Vegeta or disliking Piccolo. I don't dislike Piccolo at all let alone his relationship with Gohan. I actually think the two make a great team, and I like the mentor / student bond between them. Piccolo going down for Gohan back in the Saiyan saga was deep.Basako wrote:So it's like this. Vegeta has room to lose dignity like he did because you like him and Piccolo developing a relation with Gohan and his family makes him a horrible character because you dislike him. How convenient, if we just changed the roles with the exact same actions, you would say that Vegeta is great for caring for his family and that Piccolo is a coward for behaving like that with Whis and Beerus. You know it's true.supercat wrote: It works quite well for Vegeta, considering who he was in the past. But Piccolo? He had one major role of importance in Dragon Ball, then come DBZ, he was immediately reduced to a fodder. It also seemed like he was rather quick to become this soft pushover compared to Vegeta, who didn't really change until the Buu saga. Piccolo's character became trash the minute he invited his wimpy counterpart to live within him. Sure, he got a power up, but at the expense of his proud attitude. It really wasn't worth it, because either way, Piccolo's irrelevant on the power scale now, so he might as well have stayed a bit weaker and kept his old personality. Then maybe he wouldn't have been pushed around the way he is. It's almost as if that wimpy parasites just weighing him down by sapping the cold nature out of him. It has to be, since the old Piccolo would just probably tell ChiChi to get lost.
Vegeta has room to fool around and get pushed around by his wife. Why? Because no matter how much of that stuff he has to go through, it won't devalue how amazing of a character he is. It took so much effort and work on his part to become who he is today. Piccolo on the other hand was probably a softy right from the start. If this were King Piccolo, it'd be a different story.
Just because he helps Chichi doesn't mean he has soften up and he does it because he wants to, because he has a close relation with the Son family, not for gaining anything. Not everyone thinks like Vegeta, thank god. The character evolved for many reasons, mainly for caring for Gohan, but also for assimilating Nail and Kami, he was influenced by them. Piccolo got to accept he was left behind eventually, as earthlings did before him. He is no match for the saiyans, unless Toriyama writes something for him now, which is unlikely.supercat wrote: It has nothing to do with me favoring Vegeta or disliking Piccolo. I don't dislike Piccolo at all let alone his relationship with Gohan. I actually think the two make a great team, and I like the mentor / student bond between them. Piccolo going down for Gohan back in the Saiyan saga was deep.
All i'm saying is, Piccolo was really quick to soften up as a character. It didn't take long for him to change at all. Compared to Vegeta, who had a lot of struggle and who really had to work for it. So you could almost say, it really is pretty cool to see how far Vegeta's come. But I feel since Piccolo was never really that evil to begin with, all those scenes just make him look like a pushover and another gag character.
I would also love to see Piccolo humbling before Whis and Beerus. Why? Because this would truly be a way for him to climb back up on the power scale. This also wouldn't count as getting pushed around, because unlike disobeying ChiChi, showing disrespect to Whis and Beerus could have negative consequences. And showing them respect could have positive consequences, like getting stronger. What would he gain out of helping ChiChi?
If Frieza became good, Piccolo should also humble before him as well and commend him for how powerful he's become. I'm sure Frieza would love hearing that and would love to have someone like him as a right hand. Like I said, he did want to offer the job to Nail back on Namek so of course he'd have a guy far stronger than a powered up SSJ2 as his new right hand. And this would separate him from Gohan.
I'd agree more with the rival aspect if he was treated more like one. It's hard for me to pick the best rival in DB when Goku loses interest in all of them so damn quick.Basako wrote:Just because he helps Chichi doesn't mean he has soften up and he does it because he wants to, because he has a close relation with the Son family, not for gaining anything. Not everyone thinks like Vegeta, thank god. The character evolved for many reasons, mainly for caring for Gohan, but also for assimilating Nail and Kami, he was influenced by them. Piccolo got to accept he was left behind eventually, as earthlings did before him. He is no match for the saiyans, unless Toriyama writes something for him now, which is unlikely.supercat wrote: It has nothing to do with me favoring Vegeta or disliking Piccolo. I don't dislike Piccolo at all let alone his relationship with Gohan. I actually think the two make a great team, and I like the mentor / student bond between them. Piccolo going down for Gohan back in the Saiyan saga was deep.
All i'm saying is, Piccolo was really quick to soften up as a character. It didn't take long for him to change at all. Compared to Vegeta, who had a lot of struggle and who really had to work for it. So you could almost say, it really is pretty cool to see how far Vegeta's come. But I feel since Piccolo was never really that evil to begin with, all those scenes just make him look like a pushover and another gag character.
I would also love to see Piccolo humbling before Whis and Beerus. Why? Because this would truly be a way for him to climb back up on the power scale. This also wouldn't count as getting pushed around, because unlike disobeying ChiChi, showing disrespect to Whis and Beerus could have negative consequences. And showing them respect could have positive consequences, like getting stronger. What would he gain out of helping ChiChi?
If Frieza became good, Piccolo should also humble before him as well and commend him for how powerful he's become. I'm sure Frieza would love hearing that and would love to have someone like him as a right hand. Like I said, he did want to offer the job to Nail back on Namek so of course he'd have a guy far stronger than a powered up SSJ2 as his new right hand. And this would separate him from Gohan.
Now, there is humbling and there is embarrassing himself behaving like a servant like Vegeta did repeatedly. I would think it's fine if he asked Whis for training, there is no need to crawl like a worm for that, Goku got it without doing that.
Piccolo shouldn't humble with Freeza, fuck the tyrant. Nobody ever did that with Vegeta either. Vegeta won acceptance and respect from others with actions and because they needed him as an ally, like many others before him. In a sense, he was the one humbling to be accepted in Earth. He changed, which is fine, his mass murdering traits of the past wouldn't fit anymore.
Just for the record, I like Vegeta as he is with his flaws, like mostly all characters when the writers don't screw them. I think he is the best rival for Goku and there is cool dynamic working between them making both of them grow. Vegeta gets more from this, he is the one taking the rivalry more seriously. But I'm not going to worship him like some kind of flawless god like you do and many of his fans, not all, even less criticising others to try to make him look better than what he is. His shit stinks, like everyone's.
