How strong is Kaioshin?

[Duo]

Our disagreement on this matter is rooted deeper in surrounding subjects moreso than Kaioshin himself. That's become very apparent in the past two posts of yours Xyex. Example: I find it quite clear that Gohan was only a Super Saiya'jin when he pulled the Z-sword. That right there splits our viewpoints too far for us to have a reasonable discussion on the matter.

So, I concede not out of defeat, but simply because nothing either of us says will effect the other. I'm fine with that ending.

Good day.

[Professor Daravon]

I think that in placing Kaioshin at roughly the same strength as Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan at the Tenkaichi Budokai, Xyex is using some flawed reasoning. There are definitely techniques used throughout the series that allow a fighter of substantially lower power affect someone stronger -- for instance, Kuririn maims Freeza with a Kienzan.

Which is shown in the manga to be something that doesn't fail, unlike the Supreme Kai's worries about his hold on Gohan. And again, I didn't mean to say that they could fight on even ground. I don't deny that he could be using a special technique that lets him restrain those a degree or two stronger than him. I also don't deny that if Gohan wanted to he could have probably beat him without much concnetrated effort.

But this doesn't mean that the Supreme Kai is that much weaker then him, or as low in power as the Cyborgs (or even lower, as you suggest as possible). And Cell Games Trunks and Vegeta's powers really wouldn't be that far off from my own stated opinion on the Supreme Kai's power. That would be realtively around Perfect Cell's strength as Trunks already demonstrated that he is infact stronger than Perfect Cell in his SSJU2 form.

My point is merely that there is not really enough information about Kaioshin's restraint technique to assume that he can only use it against someone whose power is close to his own, but there is plenty of other evidence that Kaioshin is not nearly as strong as the Saiya-jin. Kaioshin uses the technique once, and if we're gonna be honest with ourselves here, the real reason Kaioshin had the technique at his disposal and it worked is that it otherwise wouldn't make sense why Gohan doesn't just smack Yam and Spopovitch. I don't think you can read much more into it than that.

I should also clarify since I failed to before, I certainly don't believe Kaioshin capable of killing Perfect Cell. I would put the upper bound on Kaioshin's strength at Vegeta's Ultimate Super Saiya-jin form, which I feel is roughly equivalent to Trunks, provided he doesn't go for super-slow/super-strong, since that form is pretty useless. You're correct that Trunks is shown to be stronger than Cell in that form, but I don't think Kaioshin is that strong or he shouldn't have anything to fear from Doubler.

I've never thought that Kaioshin's ability to restrain Gohan was indicative of nearly equal power; in fact, his astonishment at Gohan's power and his line that he's not sure he'll be able to contain it suggest to me that Gohan is far beyond him.

And I didn't say they were "nearly equal". But if Gohan were 'far beyond him' he wouldn't be able to contain him at all. Notice he made no such attempts against Dabura. His suprise at Gohan's power and concerns of maintaining his hold on him prove that Gohan is stronger, but the fact he could hold him at all proves that the gap isn't a chasm where you can't see one side from the other.

It doesn't prove anything because we have no idea what the rules are governing Kaioshin's power. Let's ignore for a moment the fact that the power was essentially just a plot device that was quickly forgotten, and that that's why it wasn't used against Doubler. What could he have done with it even if he did restrain Doubler with it? At that point, he doesn't realize how strong the Z Senshi are, so he has no reason to believe that Goku or Vegeta could easily dispatch an immobile Doubler. So he's just going to freeze him and then hold him there indefinitely?

Anyway, doesn't this point actually work against you? You posit that Kaioshin is close to Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan and/or Perfect Cell, based on the fact that he can restrain Gohan. Goku plainly tells us that Doubler is about as strong as Cell was. So it should follow by your reasoning that Kaioshin is also about as strong as Doubler and could therefore restrain him if he wanted to. Furthermore, if Kaioshin is about as strong as Doubler then why is he clearly terrified when Doubler first appears? Ultimately the fact that he doesn't even try proves nothing.

Furthermore, it takes Super Saiya-jin Gohan only a minute (albeit, with some effort) to pull out the Zetto Sword, something that Kaioshin had never been able to accomplish.

Again, this goes back to my previous point. The Supreme Kai is weaker than Gohan, we all agree on that. Thefore it's not really an issue if he couldn't pull out the Z sword but Gohan could. Unless trying to go the route of base Gohan being stronger than the Supreme Kai which just trails off into the realms of stupid absurdities. >.>

Gohan pulled out the Zetto Sword while a Super Saiya-jin, so I have no idea how his base power compares to Kaioshin's. But what I'm saying here is that if Super Saiya-jin Gohan pulls the sword out after just a few moments of struggling with it, doesn't it seem pretty fair to assume that Super Saiya-jin Gohan is quite a bit stronger than Kaioshin? The point of dispute here is becoming more and more muddled to me; you started off saying that Kaioshin is "close to, but not quite as strong as" Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan circa Tenkaichi Budokai, but now you're conceding, in fact claiming that you agreed all along, that Kaioshin's weaker than Super Saiya-jin Gohan. It seems to me that you're gradually moving away from your original point, which is what I was disputing in the first place. What exactly are we still arguing about here?

There is also a flaw in the reasoning regarding why Vegeta didn't want Gohan and Gotenks to come to Kaioshin Kai to help fight Boo. He had already set himself to the Genki Dama plan, and his idea was specifically to have the people of Earth help themselves for once. They aren't helping themselves if he just brings a few more of his friends to come do all the fighting.

And how, pray tell, is that a flaw? It's reason Vegeta chose his selected actions. No more different than a reason the Supreme Kai chose his selected action. Knowing he could not match Kid Buu he elected to leave and let Goku deal with him without worry of injuring him in the battle. Meanwhile Vegeta's Saiya-jin blood made him decide to stay and try his hand at fighting Buu dispite the power discrepency between them.

Thus the arguement I made stands. The Supreme Kai had a purpose for not staying just as Vegeta had a purpose for not having Gohan or Gotenks come to finish Buu. Claiming a power several degrees weaker than Vegeta's based on this information would require doing the same for Gohan and Gotenks. I was merely pointing out that there are other reasons for not being involved in the battle than not being strong enough.

It's flawed reasoning because the two facts are not correlated. Duo called Kaioshin "excess baggage" and said that's why he didn't stay around to help fight Boo on Kaioshin Kai; your response was that if Kaioshin is excess baggage then Gohan and Gotenks, who were not brought to Kaioshin Kai to help fight, must also be weaker than Vegeta. Clearly they're not weaker than Vegeta, as I assume you yourself would agree. But it doesn't naturally follow from that that Kaioshin must also be stronger than Vegeta. There is no logical connection. In fact, the absence of Gohan and Gotenks really says nothing about Kaioshin's power and is irrelevant to this whole discussion. No one ever says or even suggests that Gohan and Gotenks are too weak to fight Boo, but Vegeta specifically wanted the people of Earth to help themselves, so he pushed his Genki Dama plan instead.

Who says he's had the opportunity? Even Kaio says he's never met Kaioshin. Clearly he's not the easiest guy to get ahold of. And we never see anyone travel to Kaioshin Kai except via Shunkan Idou. If Doubler doesn't know how to teleport, can we even confidently surmise that he can get to Kaioshin Kai? I certainly think that if Kaioshin is powerful enough to kill Doubler, he wouldn't be so terrified at the revelation that Doubler's in league with Babidi.

And why would Dabura even have to go find the Supreme Kai? Last I checked Babidi didn't go looking for the Supreme Kai so he could have Buu kill him, the Supreme Kai came to him. All Dabura would have to do is start causing destruction. With the Supreme Kai as the strongest Kai he'd be the only one who could show up to try and stop him. It's not really a complicated concept.

Boo is also a legitimate threat to destroy the entire universe. Doubler, on the other hand, is just an evil, powerful guy, much the same as the Saiya-jin, Freeza, or Cell, against whom Kaioshin also declined to intervene. Boo represented extraordinary circumstances, but there is no evidence to suggest that Kaioshin routinely intervenes any time a troublemaker pops up. You're also assuming that Doubler knew about Kaioshin before becoming charmed and that he specifically wanted to kill Kaioshin. What are those assumptions based on?

There is really very little evidence that Kaioshin possesses any significant strength by Boo saga standards. Like I said, he most likely falls somewhere between Trunks vs. Freeza and Trunks/Vegeta at the Cell Game. Pegging him at a power similar to the Artificial Humans is fair, albeit somewhat arbitrary.

Except what he does display, and his position in Otherworld, evidence him as being stronger than them. As does the fact that if it were that easy to make machines as strong as the Supreme Kai then he'd be used to being surpassed in power. And, as I said before, the end of your scale matches my selected range anyway, so I fail to even see why you countered my points?

Lots of weak characters hold high positions in the Other World. What would I have to say to get you to argue that Kaio could have killed Freeza or Dai Kaio could have taken on Cell? Kaioshin never displays any amount of power that would seem to put him on a level close to the Saiya-jin. And who says it's easy to make machines as strong as Kaioshin? It took seventeen years between the destruction of the Red Ribbon Army and the appearance of the Artificial Humans. And it certainly doesn't seem that anyone else matched Dr. Gero's accomplishments there, since Freeza runs a vast space empire and believes himself to be the strongest in the universe.

The point that I countered was that Kaioshin is "close to" Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan. There's no way Vegeta and Trunks at the Cell Game were as strong as Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan, even if he had lost some of his strength over the intervening seven years. The only reason our estimates seem to be in agreement is that yours has gradually been changing.

[Conan the SSJ]

I presume that when Goku powered up to defeat Yakon, that he just went to the maximum of his regular Super Saiyan power rather than transform, and Vegeta probably noticed that he could've gone further. IIRC, there really aren't any signs in the manga or anime (which is even harder to tell because of Toei) that he did go to level 2, hence I presume he first onscreen transformed during the battle with Majin Vegeta. Just think back to the Cell Games, he had a minimum power status while staying in the form, a 50% status he showed to Karin and presumably battled Cell in during their "practice", and his max. power he used against Cell once they'd gotten serious; it's not too far fetched to think he can still power up more in the regular Super Saiyan level before having to transform further.

As for Kaioshin's attack, I'm one who's under the assumption that it worked on Gohan because he had "pure energy" status that presumably Kaioshin, Kabito, and the Majins didn't; so it was much easier to subdue him. Taking that into account, I feel it's more a status of being both a magical and psychic attack. Heck, when we think about it, Gohan was caught off guard by Kaioshin and right when he was stabbed, Kaioshin let go of the hold; he didn't even have it on him for very long.

Now Super Saiyan 2...Duo and myself have made it plain clear that it's just too confusing an issue to thoroughly debate when we're talking both manga and anime. Due to Toei, the distinguishable traits clearly differ, meaning one can be at level 2 in the anime even if Toriyama designed it as just Super Saiyan 1 in the manga. For example, the manga depicts Gohan at level 1 when he battles Dabura, Buu's ball/Buu himself, and pulls the Z Sword; yet Toei's animation style with the intensity of his aura (sans lightning) and his hair design indicate (from my point of view) is indication of level 2 in the anime. Same can be said for Majin Vegeta; after being converted, Vegeta doesn't seem to demonstrate level 2 traits until he and Goku finally begin their battle, yet appears to stay at level 2 through out his entire duration of a Majin in the anime. The fact lightning isn't necessary in the anime is made concrete in the Kid Buu battle when Vegeta makes his 1 minute stand against Buu, in the manga he clearly went level 2, but with the anime there was zero lightning and all we got were Toei's ambiguous traits (and with Vegeta's hair, it's even harder to tell in the anime).

I hope I've made some sense here. And don't you dare skip over what I've said, Xyex.

[TripleRach]

I presume that when Goku powered up to defeat Yakon, that he just went to the maximum of his regular Super Saiyan power rather than transform, and Vegeta probably noticed that he could've gone further. IIRC, there really aren't any signs in the manga or anime (which is even harder to tell because of Toei) that he did go to level 2, hence I presume he first onscreen transformed during the battle with Majin Vegeta.

Well, his hair and face definitely change in the manga, but the real kicker is that Vegeta notes Gokuu has "also overcome the Super Saiya-jin wall," which is the only way SSJ2 is described up until Gokuu's SSJ3 demonstration where he refers to it by name for the first time. It's pretty obvious he was supposed to be SSJ2 there, which was the catalyst for Vegeta wanting to get enslaved by Babidi for a power up.

And, while some will argue it (and I'll have well thought out counter-arguments!), it seems pretty clear to me that Vegeta was also SSJ2 at that point. So, assuming that's true, it wouldn't make any sense for him to want more power if Gokuu was only showing extra power as SSJ1.

[Xyex]

Our disagreement on this matter is rooted deeper in surrounding subjects moreso than Kaioshin himself. That's become very apparent in the past two posts of yours Xyex. Example: I find it quite clear that Gohan was only a Super Saiya'jin when he pulled the Z-sword. That right there splits our viewpoints too far for us to have a reasonable discussion on the matter.

Actually, perhaps not quite as much as you might think. I'm still basicly on the fence about that point. But it's not an impossibility, as I'll be getting into with other points in this post.

My point is merely that there is not really enough information about Kaioshin's restraint technique to assume that he can only use it against someone whose power is close to his own, but there is plenty of other evidence that Kaioshin is not nearly as strong as the Saiya-jin. Kaioshin uses the technique once, and if we're gonna be honest with ourselves here, the real reason Kaioshin had the technique at his disposal and it worked is that it otherwise wouldn't make sense why Gohan doesn't just smack Yam and Spopovitch. I don't think you can read much more into it than that.

The abscence of evidence is not evidence of abscence. Simply discarding one element due to it contradicting your view point doesn't change the fact it's still there. And none of the other 'evidence' holds up any real weight either.

I should also clarify since I failed to before, I certainly don't believe Kaioshin capable of killing Perfect Cell. I would put the upper bound on Kaioshin's strength at Vegeta's Ultimate Super Saiya-jin form, which I feel is roughly equivalent to Trunks, provided he doesn't go for super-slow/super-strong, since that form is pretty useless. You're correct that Trunks is shown to be stronger than Cell in that form, but I don't think Kaioshin is that strong or he shouldn't have anything to fear from Doubler.

And where did I say that Dabura = Perfect Cell? I didn't. Read again. I said he was closer in power to Super Perfect Cell. (And if I did say Perfect anyway, that was a typo.) I really didn't want to have to bring numbers into this as those always tend to be problematic with this but I'm seeing that a visual representation is in order here. So, we'll say that Super Perfect Cell was 300. At the tournament Gohan's 230 and the Supreme Kai is 190. And we'll say Dabura was 280. See how easily that works out?

At that point, he doesn't realize how strong the Z Senshi are, so he has no reason to believe that Goku or Vegeta could easily dispatch an immobile Doubler. So he's just going to freeze him and then hold him there indefinitely?

Oh, gee, I don't know, he could have stopped him from leaving when Babidi called him back? At this point he did know what they were cappable of from Gohan's fight and from what Vegeta and Goku were saying.

Anyway, doesn't this point actually work against you? You posit that Kaioshin is close to Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan and/or Perfect Cell, based on the fact that he can restrain Gohan. Goku plainly tells us that Doubler is about as strong as Cell was. So it should follow by your reasoning that Kaioshin is also about as strong as Doubler and could therefore restrain him if he wanted to. Furthermore, if Kaioshin is about as strong as Doubler then why is he clearly terrified when Doubler first appears? Ultimately the fact that he doesn't even try proves nothing.

Only when you don't read my posts properly. I say that the Kaioshin is close to Gohan's strength, close enough to restain him. And I say that Dabura is stronger than Gohan. Strong enough to give him trouble. Goku does compare Dabura to Cell, and then say he was better than he thought, and I've always likend that to Super Perfect. And last I checked, Perfect Cell and Super Perfect Cell weren't at the same power.

Gohan pulled out the Zetto Sword while a Super Saiya-jin, so I have no idea how his base power compares to Kaioshin's. But what I'm saying here is that if Super Saiya-jin Gohan pulls the sword out after just a few moments of struggling with it, doesn't it seem pretty fair to assume that Super Saiya-jin Gohan is quite a bit stronger than Kaioshin?

The point about base wasn't directed at you, merely a refrence to a lot of claims I see about the base Saiya-jins being stronger than the Supreme Kai that have driven me crazy over recent years.

Anyway, my point here is that it is possible for SSJ Gohan to be stronger than the Supreme Kai at this point. He's recieved two Zenkais since the tournament. One from having all of his energy drained and yet another from Buu kicking the crap out of him and leaving him on death's door. To assume that Gohan's power hasn't gone up from those makes no sense.

Hell, I think it's pretty safe to assume that his first recovery put him close to his Cell Games power again and the second would have put him beyond that. So if the Supreme Kai is just short of Perfect Cell in power and Gohan was already as strong or stronger than Perfect Cell at the Cell Games and he's now beyond that, I fail to see why this is an issue?

The point of dispute here is becoming more and more muddled to me; you started off saying that Kaioshin is "close to, but not quite as strong as" Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan circa Tenkaichi Budokai, but now you're conceding, in fact claiming that you agreed all along, that Kaioshin's weaker than Super Saiya-jin Gohan. It seems to me that you're gradually moving away from your original point, which is what I was disputing in the first place. What exactly are we still arguing about here?

I've not changed my stance at all. You just haven't been paying attention, which has been fairly obvious by a few of your responses. I'll clairfy, though. At the Cell Games the Supreme Kai's power is greater than SSJ Gohan and close enough to SSJ2 Gohan to consider them within the same 'range'. This does not mean, as you seem to insist it does, that they are equal in power.. After Gohan's power boosts, by the time he tries to pull the Z Sword, his SSJ form is stronger than that of the Supreme Kai.

your response was that if Kaioshin is excess baggage then Gohan and Gotenks, who were not brought to Kaioshin Kai to help fight, must also be weaker than Vegeta. Clearly they're not weaker than Vegeta, as I assume you yourself would agree.

Again, not paying attention to my posts, I see. I said that there are reasons other than power to stay and fight or leave and not fight. I was using the Spirit Bomb plan as an example, nothing more. How much more obviously does this need to be stated?

Boo is also a legitimate threat to destroy the entire universe. Doubler, on the other hand, is just an evil, powerful guy, much the same as the Saiya-jin, Freeza, or Cell, against whom Kaioshin also declined to intervene. Boo represented extraordinary circumstances, but there is no evidence to suggest that Kaioshin routinely intervenes any time a troublemaker pops up. You're also assuming that Doubler knew about Kaioshin before becoming charmed and that he specifically wanted to kill Kaioshin. What are those assumptions based on?

And Dabura, who is more powerful than the Supreme Kai, wouldn't be a legitimate threat to destroy the entire universe were the Z Fighters not around? And what are your assumptions based on that Dabura wouldn't know of the Supreme Kai when the Supreme Kai knows of him?

Lots of weak characters hold high positions in the Other World. What would I have to say to get you to argue that Kaio could have killed Freeza or Dai Kaio could have taken on Cell? Kaioshin never displays any amount of power that would seem to put him on a level close to the Saiya-jin. And who says it's easy to make machines as strong as Kaioshin?

I'd hardly consider any of them weak in comparison with their posts in Otherworld. King Yemma (though I believe this was filler only) is stronger than Raditz. King Kai is stronger than him. Weaker than Nappa and Vegeta, I believe, but still more powerful than a large portion of the galaxy. Probably comparable to Freeza's elites or better. And the Grand Kai? Somewhere from Freeza's full power to SSJ Vegeta's when he first fought the Androids wouldn't be that far fetched, IMO.

I hope I've made some sense here. And don't you dare skip over what I've said, Xyex.

Consider it skipped.

Nah, Rachel already covered what I would have. And I'm tired of this thread now for some reason anyway. >>

[Professor Daravon]

My point is merely that there is not really enough information about Kaioshin's restraint technique to assume that he can only use it against someone whose power is close to his own, but there is plenty of other evidence that Kaioshin is not nearly as strong as the Saiya-jin. Kaioshin uses the technique once, and if we're gonna be honest with ourselves here, the real reason Kaioshin had the technique at his disposal and it worked is that it otherwise wouldn't make sense why Gohan doesn't just smack Yam and Spopovitch. I don't think you can read much more into it than that.

The abscence of evidence is not evidence of abscence. Simply discarding one element due to it contradicting your view point doesn't change the fact it's still there. And none of the other 'evidence' holds up any real weight either.

I'm not merely discarding something because it doesn't mesh with my position, I'm discarding something because it is impossible to tell whether it meshes with my opinion. Can you prove that Kaioshin can only restrain those who are not significantly stronger than he is?

I should also clarify since I failed to before, I certainly don't believe Kaioshin capable of killing Perfect Cell. I would put the upper bound on Kaioshin's strength at Vegeta's Ultimate Super Saiya-jin form, which I feel is roughly equivalent to Trunks, provided he doesn't go for super-slow/super-strong, since that form is pretty useless. You're correct that Trunks is shown to be stronger than Cell in that form, but I don't think Kaioshin is that strong or he shouldn't have anything to fear from Doubler.

And where did I say that Dabura = Perfect Cell? I didn't. Read again. I said he was closer in power to Super Perfect Cell. (And if I did say Perfect anyway, that was a typo.) I really didn't want to have to bring numbers into this as those always tend to be problematic with this but I'm seeing that a visual representation is in order here. So, we'll say that Super Perfect Cell was 300. At the tournament Gohan's 230 and the Supreme Kai is 190. And we'll say Dabura was 280. See how easily that works out?

You didn't say Doubler was as strong as Cell. Goku said it. And he was ambiguous about which form of Cell he was referring to, but he was certainly much more familiar with Cell's power pre-explosion, so that's the form that I imagine he was talking about, but it's merely a guess.

As for your numbers, they're completely arbitrary and without context. I can assign numbers to each character as well, but it doesn't prove anything. Your original statement, the one with which I am disagreeing, is that Kaioshin is "close to" the same level as Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan. I'm perfectly capable of understanding what "close to, but not quite as strong as" means; making up a bunch of numbers does not further advance your fundamental point, which I still believe is wrong.

At that point, he doesn't realize how strong the Z Senshi are, so he has no reason to believe that Goku or Vegeta could easily dispatch an immobile Doubler. So he's just going to freeze him and then hold him there indefinitely?

Oh, gee, I don't know, he could have stopped him from leaving when Babidi called him back? At this point he did know what they were cappable of from Gohan's fight and from what Vegeta and Goku were saying.

Fair enough. Still, the fact that he didn't try doesn't prove that he couldn't have done it.

Anyway, doesn't this point actually work against you? You posit that Kaioshin is close to Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan and/or Perfect Cell, based on the fact that he can restrain Gohan. Goku plainly tells us that Doubler is about as strong as Cell was. So it should follow by your reasoning that Kaioshin is also about as strong as Doubler and could therefore restrain him if he wanted to. Furthermore, if Kaioshin is about as strong as Doubler then why is he clearly terrified when Doubler first appears? Ultimately the fact that he doesn't even try proves nothing.

Only when you don't read my posts properly. I say that the Kaioshin is close to Gohan's strength, close enough to restain him. And I say that Dabura is stronger than Gohan. Strong enough to give him trouble. Goku does compare Dabura to Cell, and then say he was better than he thought, and I've always likend that to Super Perfect. And last I checked, Perfect Cell and Super Perfect Cell weren't at the same power.

Ah, so it's just more making things up then? You're quite correct, Perfect Cell and Super Perfect Cell weren't at the same level. On the contrary, there was quite a vast gulf separating them. But for someone who, according to Vegeta's observation, didn't have nearly as much power on him as when he killed Cell, Gohan fights Doubler pretty well to be facing someone as powerful as Super Perfect Cell. In fact, Gohan initially has the upper hand in the battle, and only gradually does Doubler begin to gain an edge before abruptly ending the battle. I think it's fair to estimate that both Gohan and Doubler were, at this point, stronger than Perfect Cell but probably significantly weaker than Super Perfect Cell -- in Gohan's case, it's not really an estimate anyway.

Gohan pulled out the Zetto Sword while a Super Saiya-jin, so I have no idea how his base power compares to Kaioshin's. But what I'm saying here is that if Super Saiya-jin Gohan pulls the sword out after just a few moments of struggling with it, doesn't it seem pretty fair to assume that Super Saiya-jin Gohan is quite a bit stronger than Kaioshin?

The point about base wasn't directed at you, merely a refrence to a lot of claims I see about the base Saiya-jins being stronger than the Supreme Kai that have driven me crazy over recent years.

Anyway, my point here is that it is possible for SSJ Gohan to be stronger than the Supreme Kai at this point. He's recieved two Zenkais since the tournament. One from having all of his energy drained and yet another from Buu kicking the crap out of him and leaving him on death's door. To assume that Gohan's power hasn't gone up from those makes no sense.

Hell, I think it's pretty safe to assume that his first recovery put him close to his Cell Games power again and the second would have put him beyond that. So if the Supreme Kai is just short of Perfect Cell in power and Gohan was already as strong or stronger than Perfect Cell at the Cell Games and he's now beyond that, I fail to see why this is an issue?

A fair point -- I had neglected to consider Gohan's two revivals. However, it seems a stretch to think that his power was restored to Cell Game level by the time he fought Doubler, given Vegeta's consistent disdain. But that's merely my own opinion, and there is far too little concrete information to persuasively argue one way or the other about it.

The point of dispute here is becoming more and more muddled to me; you started off saying that Kaioshin is "close to, but not quite as strong as" Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan circa Tenkaichi Budokai, but now you're conceding, in fact claiming that you agreed all along, that Kaioshin's weaker than Super Saiya-jin Gohan. It seems to me that you're gradually moving away from your original point, which is what I was disputing in the first place. What exactly are we still arguing about here?

I've not changed my stance at all. You just haven't been paying attention, which has been fairly obvious by a few of your responses. I'll clairfy, though. At the Cell Games the Supreme Kai's power is greater than SSJ Gohan and close enough to SSJ2 Gohan to consider them within the same 'range'. This does not mean, as you seem to insist it does, that they are equal in power.. After Gohan's power boosts, by the time he tries to pull the Z Sword, his SSJ form is stronger than that of the Supreme Kai.

Is Cell Game a typo here, or have you shifted yet further from your original position? I'm not insisting anything, but you originally said that Kaioshin was "close to, but not quite as strong as" Gohan at the Tenkaichi Budokai. Clearly we have differing opinions on what constitutes "close," particularly with the gap between them on your made up scale amounting to 13% of Super Perfect Cell's considerable power. If you say that Kaioshin is "close to" Gohan's power, that does not suggest to me that Gohan could probably beat him "without much concentrated effort," as you conceded earlier that he probably could.

My contention here is merely that Kaioshin is not on any level close to Gohan's, that Kaioshin is significantly weaker, and that the one piece of evidence that you are leaning on to prove otherwise (his restraint of Gohan) is irrelevant because we don't know how it works, you can't prove that Kaioshin must be in the same "range" as Gohan to effectively contain him, and there is no other evidence throughout the rest of the show to suggest that they are on similar levels.

your response was that if Kaioshin is excess baggage then Gohan and Gotenks, who were not brought to Kaioshin Kai to help fight, must also be weaker than Vegeta. Clearly they're not weaker than Vegeta, as I assume you yourself would agree.

Again, not paying attention to my posts, I see. I said that there are reasons other than power to stay and fight or leave and not fight. I was using the Spirit Bomb plan as an example, nothing more. How much more obviously does this need to be stated?

Let's backtrack here. Again. Duo says that Kaioshin is excess baggage because he doesn't help on Kaioshin Kai. You then say that Gohan and Gotenks must also be weaker than Vegeta. This is obviously not true, the implication being that Kaioshin's absence during the final battle is not indicative of his power any moreso than it is of Gohan's. Is my feeble mind keeping up with your superior reasoning so far?

The only point I'm trying to make here is that there is no connection between Kaioshin's absence during the battle and Gotenks/Gohan's. You were wrong to invoke their names to refute that point because they are not in any way correlated. That's all I'm trying to say. I believe that we are otherwise in agreement on this part.

Boo is also a legitimate threat to destroy the entire universe. Doubler, on the other hand, is just an evil, powerful guy, much the same as the Saiya-jin, Freeza, or Cell, against whom Kaioshin also declined to intervene. Boo represented extraordinary circumstances, but there is no evidence to suggest that Kaioshin routinely intervenes any time a troublemaker pops up. You're also assuming that Doubler knew about Kaioshin before becoming charmed and that he specifically wanted to kill Kaioshin. What are those assumptions based on?

And Dabura, who is more powerful than the Supreme Kai, wouldn't be a legitimate threat to destroy the entire universe were the Z Fighters not around? And what are your assumptions based on that Dabura wouldn't know of the Supreme Kai when the Supreme Kai knows of him?

Although evil, Doubler is still governed by reason; Boo, as a mindless, irrational, pure evil killing machine, is something of an anomaly. Doubler is king of the demon world, and he has more to gain from subjugating people than from killing them outright, so why would he try to destroy the universe? And as far as we know, he hasn't. If he isn't threatening, then he's not a threat.

And I'm not assuming that Doubler didn't know about Kaioshin, I'm simply saying that we don't know one way or the other. Even Kaio has never met Kaioshin. The Z Senshi react with surprise when Piccolo tells them that "Shin" is actually Kaioshin, but is that because they had already heard of him? Or can they infer his identity from his name, "Kaio God" (or more completely, "God King of the Realm")? Piccolo knew who he was, though Piccolo used to be Kami and so knows more than everyone else anyway. No one except for Kami even knew who Kaio was until Goku went and met him. I don't know whether Kaioshin is well known or whether Doubler knew who he was before being charmed by Babidi, but it's certainly not unreasonable to expect that most people in This World have never heard of him, although there is no hard evidence. I feel that this is getting extremely off topic, though.

Lots of weak characters hold high positions in the Other World. What would I have to say to get you to argue that Kaio could have killed Freeza or Dai Kaio could have taken on Cell? Kaioshin never displays any amount of power that would seem to put him on a level close to the Saiya-jin. And who says it's easy to make machines as strong as Kaioshin?

I'd hardly consider any of them weak in comparison with their posts in Otherworld. King Yemma (though I believe this was filler only) is stronger than Raditz. King Kai is stronger than him. Weaker than Nappa and Vegeta, I believe, but still more powerful than a large portion of the galaxy. Probably comparable to Freeza's elites or better. And the Grand Kai? Somewhere from Freeza's full power to SSJ Vegeta's when he first fought the Androids wouldn't be that far fetched, IMO.

Raditz was pretty weak by DBZ standards. Strong when he was introduced, but that lasted about four episodes before pretty much everyone on the show eclipsed him. Given what little else we see of the Saiya-jin, including in the Bardock special, and what we see of Freeza's other soldiers, it would seem that there are many people out there much stronger than Raditz. Nappa's not much better either, so it seems that Kaio is king of a galaxy that is teeming with people significantly stronger than he is. As for Dai Kaio's power, we can only guess; all we know is that he's weaker than Goku and Paikuhan at the Anoyoichi Budokai. Given that our only bounds for him are that he's stronger than Kaio, who is weaker than Nappa, and weaker than Goku, who is almost as strong as Perfect Cell, nothing is farfetched for him. We only really have two characters in the Other World with powers that can be reasonably and accurately estimated, and I'll grant you that they're the two lowest level characters there, but they are still outrageously weak, even given their low positions in the hierarchy. So I don't really think that his position near the top of the hierarchy is really all that indicative of Kaioshin's strength.

[Xyex]

Only going to comment on one thing here (and then only cause I typoed) and then let this be. I don't know, I think I might be burned out of doing long winded debates on the series for now. I usually enjoy them (even when I get frustrated during them, which is almost a given) but this one's just making me feel uninterested the more I try to keep at it.

Is Cell Game a typo here, or have you shifted yet further from your original position?

Yeah, that was supposed to be "At the Budokai". No idea where that came from.