What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

[supercat]

Why should Tien, the bottom-tier among the current pile of strategist garbage even get a whole episode wasted on him? I don't understand.

He really should have gone down when Narirama was going on his rampage. This would have been a great way to just get him out. I don't find him entertaining to watch at all. Maybe if I want a good laugh sure, but other than that he should make room for the characters that actually matter.

And why was Tien even showing respect to his opponent anyway? Who does that? Just shows he's lost his win win battle mentality. It's also funny because a compliment from weakling like Tien isn't even really worth a pat on the back.

[MaskedRider]

[spoiler]

Yes the video has been posted already, I seen it at least three times in this thread. Sorry if I sound rude but I see it going up like its the holy grail of what is wrong with Tenshinhan and while he isn't WRONG my issue is that he uses examples strictly from Super instead of Z as well. Heck, I don't know why he isn't complaining about him in Z too

He kinda did, didn't he? When he brought up Tenshinan only using one move and being swept away he was referring to Z as well, even had a screencap of Tenshinhan right before being one-shotted by disembodied Boo-legs.

[/spoiler]

I suppose, I had to re watch the video just to make sure and when it came to that part he talks about him in the context of Super and his relationship with Launch. Though I suppose the photo he used with Boo legs was a nod toward what he was talking about in Super.

[spoiler]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42HNvl0e26I

Not sure if this was posted already, but it's a pretty good video.

Yes the video has been posted already, I seen it at least three times in this thread. Sorry if I sound rude but I see it going up like its the holy grail of what is wrong with Tenshinhan and while he isn't WRONG my issue is that he uses examples strictly from Super instead of Z as well. Heck, I don't know why he isn't complaining about him in Z too, having to re-watch clips to refresh my memory, it seems all he knows how to do is the Tri Beam while being the guy to show how much stronger the bad guy is. I'm not saying Super should be scotch free now but I probably seen him do more in new material since Battle of Gods movie than what I remember in Z after the Saiyan saga. Actually scratch that, I would say from all that I seen and read on he in Z and Super are just about the same. I would argue Yamcha is more deserving of the "Now what the hell is going on with him?" discussion. But at least Z and Super did more with him than GT ever did.


GT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ufoM8mNKGA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v-hybUNUzM

At least in Z and Super he is SOMETHING than NOTHING. Although of course he could have been more, I get that he got more screen time in Z but I wish he could have had more like the new material...I mean look at how cool this is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65Zn1MPMzA4 this screams experienced martial artist

Because GT and Z tried to preserve the power scaling of Z. Tien in Z was fighting against an overwhelmingly stronger opponent and managed to buy the Z fighters some time. That to me is more impressive than fighting a few seconds against fodder level characters. Super takes liberties with power scaling and brought back Master Roshi meaning Tien could finally get the chance to do something but nope, he's even worse.

[/spoiler]

I disagree, I wouldn't say he got worse though I do fault the writers with not utilizing him in a better way. I am all for him being eliminated second but how it was done was executed badly despite me liking it at the same time but that is me. His scrap with Roshi was with Roshi being manipulated by witch craft and nobody is going to know the extent of how that affected him, it could have given him more power magically (which I know that sounds silly and a cop out thing to say but Babidi, a wizard, making people stronger through his mind control for example) for all we know.

[Ziegander]

Why should Tien, the bottom-tier among the current pile of strategist garbage even get a whole episode wasted on him? I don't understand.

He really should have gone down when Narirama was going on his rampage. This would have been a great way to just get him out. I don't find him entertaining to watch at all. Maybe if I want a good laugh sure, but other than that he should make room for the characters that actually matter.

And why was Tien even showing respect to his opponent anyway? Who does that? Just shows he's lost his win win battle mentality. It's also funny because a compliment from weakling like Tien isn't even really worth a pat on the back.

Your arguments amount to, "the writers have made Tien shit tier, so why should he ever get to be not shit tier?" which is, I'd say, deliberately missing the point. He wasn't always shit tier. His feats in DB make him out to be an experienced and cunning martial artist with a wide array of powerful, interesting, even surprising techniques. His feats in Z have him above Krillin's power level, sometimes by miles. Given his training on Kai's planet and his constant training on his own thereafter, given Super's focus on breathing new life into old characters and establishing that Ki control is as much about willpower and inner peace, it would be entirely possible to show Tien as being Piccolo level (hold it in, buddy, I know about your contempt for Piccolo too, calm down, it's going to be okay). He was never big bad level, nor could he ever keep up with the Saiyans or their adversaries (well, he did alright against the Cell juniors actually ), but he was definitely stronger than all of the humans even if the gulf between him and Piccolo by the time Buu rolled around was enormous.

Anyway, my point is, the writers had the perfect opportunity to scale Tien back up some. He was never bottom of the barrel and he had a variety of techniques to improve upon and awakening his third eye could have been just one simple way to grant him an easy raw power up. Instead the writers made him noticeably weaker and stupider than I've seen him in a very long time. You don't find him entertaining to watch at all? Yeah, in Super, neither do I, but that's the writers' fault and not the character. I always liked Tien from way back in the Saiyan Saga and he didn't participate in the Frieza Saga because he was dead and training with King Kai, but that looked like it should have been a chance at some true advancement for him. Only when he did come back to fight the Androids, he doesn't do a thing until his infamous Neo Tri-Beam spam against Semi-Perfect Cell (a feat that outclasses anything Piccolo could do to Cell at the time). Piccolo makes short work of Android 20 and this is long before he's merged with Kami, so his power level couldn't have skyrocketed too much in the three years between the end of the Frieza saga and meeting these androids. Piccolo was something like 1.5 million at that point and you've got him smashing Android 20. Let's be generous and say that he doubled his power level every year. He'd go from 1.5 to 12 million, very impressive gains, but still nothing even remotely on the level of 100% Final Form Frieza on Namek. Android 19 must have been close to 10 times that powerful and Imperfect Cell had to have a power level close to 180 million or more. Low-balling fairly dramatically, I think it's safe to say that if Tien could do anything to a guy with a power level considerably higher than 200 million (Semi-Perfect Cell), a better feat than fused Piccolo, whose power level must have been higher than Super Saiyan Vegeta before his time training, then clearly Tien was no slouch during the Android Saga.

The problem, then, is that the writers just don't give a damn about power levels and definitely care even less about Tien. Why did they include him just to shit all over him? Who knows? But fused Piccolo was definitely stronger than 100% Final Form Frieza from the Namek Saga, so given that he couldn't even touch Semi-Perfect Cell, the fact that Tien, even by "sacrificing his life force," using a really powerful technique that deliberately drains your stamina in huge chunks, way more physically demanding than a full power Kamehameha, the fact that Tien could do that, then, tells me his power level must have been very high, rivaling Final Form Namek Saga Frieza, maybe not at 100%, but pretty damn far up there. And he's never stopped training since the Android Saga. So since Piccolo never got a dramatic power boost after fusing with Kami and he and Tien both continually train why is it Piccolo has increased his power so much that he can stomp SSJ2 Gohan but Tien looks like a complete tool? Again, not the character's problem, not established canon's problem, but the writers' problem. The writers have made Tien shit tier. Based on feats, Tien deserves a much stronger showing, but the writers have made him dramatically weaker and dumber than Tien at his peak. No, I agree, it's not entertaining, but that's why people are upset at how Super is treating him.

[Jigurashi]

Why should Tien, the bottom-tier among the current pile of strategist garbage even get a whole episode wasted on him? I don't understand.

He really should have gone down when Narirama was going on his rampage. This would have been a great way to just get him out. I don't find him entertaining to watch at all. Maybe if I want a good laugh sure, but other than that he should make room for the characters that actually matter.

And why was Tien even showing respect to his opponent anyway? Who does that? Just shows he's lost his win win battle mentality. It's also funny because a compliment from weakling like Tien isn't even really worth a pat on the back.

Your arguments amount to, "the writers have made Tien shit tier, so why should he ever get to be not shit tier?" which is, I'd say, deliberately missing the point. He wasn't always shit tier. His feats in DB make him out to be an experienced and cunning martial artist with a wide array of powerful, interesting, even surprising techniques. His feats in Z have him above Krillin's power level, sometimes by miles. Given his training on Kai's planet and his constant training on his own thereafter, given Super's focus on breathing new life into old characters and establishing that Ki control is as much about willpower and inner peace, it would be entirely possible to show Tien as being Piccolo level (hold it in, buddy, I know about your contempt for Piccolo too, calm down, it's going to be okay). He was never big bad level, nor could he ever keep up with the Saiyans or their adversaries (well, he did alright against the Cell juniors actually ), but he was definitely stronger than all of the humans even if the gulf between him and Piccolo by the time Buu rolled around was enormous.

Anyway, my point is, the writers had the perfect opportunity to scale Tien back up some. He was never bottom of the barrel and he had a variety of techniques to improve upon and awakening his third eye could have been just one simple way to grant him an easy raw power up. Instead the writers made him noticeably weaker and stupider than I've seen him in a very long time. You don't find him entertaining to watch at all? Yeah, in Super, neither do I, but that's the writers' fault and not the character. I always liked Tien from way back in the Saiyan Saga and he didn't participate in the Frieza Saga because he was dead and training with King Kai, but that looked like it should have been a chance at some true advancement for him. Only when he did come back to fight the Androids, he doesn't do a thing until his infamous Neo Tri-Beam spam against Semi-Perfect Cell (a feat that outclasses anything Piccolo could do to Cell at the time). Piccolo makes short work of Android 20 and this is long before he's merged with Kami, so his power level couldn't have skyrocketed too much in the three years between the end of the Frieza saga and meeting these androids. Piccolo was something like 1.5 million at that point and you've got him smashing Android 20. Let's be generous and say that he doubled his power level every year. He'd go from 1.5 to 12 million, very impressive gains, but still nothing even remotely on the level of 100% Final Form Frieza on Namek. Android 19 must have been close to 10 times that powerful and Imperfect Cell had to have a power level close to 180 million or more. Low-balling fairly dramatically, I think it's safe to say that if Tien could do anything to a guy with a power level considerably higher than 200 million (Semi-Perfect Cell), a better feat than fused Piccolo, whose power level must have been higher than Super Saiyan Vegeta before his time training, then clearly Tien was no slouch during the Android Saga.

The problem, then, is that the writers just don't give a damn about power levels and definitely care even less about Tien. Why did they include him just to shit all over him? Who knows? But fused Piccolo was definitely stronger than 100% Final Form Frieza from the Namek Saga, so given that he couldn't even touch Semi-Perfect Cell, the fact that Tien, even by "sacrificing his life force," using a really powerful technique that deliberately drains your stamina in huge chunks, way more physically demanding than a full power Kamehameha, the fact that Tien could do that, then, tells me his power level must have been very high, rivaling Final Form Namek Saga Frieza, maybe not at 100%, but pretty damn far up there. And he's never stopped training since the Android Saga. So since Piccolo never got a dramatic power boost after fusing with Kami and he and Tien both continually train why is it Piccolo has increased his power so much that he can stomp SSJ2 Gohan but Tien looks like a complete tool? Again, not the character's problem, not established canon's problem, but the writers' problem. The writers have made Tien shit tier. Based on feats, Tien deserves a much stronger showing, but the writers have made him dramatically weaker and dumber than Tien at his peak. No, I agree, it's not entertaining, but that's why people are upset at how Super is treating him.

While I agree with the overall point, Ten was never a cunning fighter, nor was he stronger than Kuririn the moment Kuririn got his potential unlocked.

Your argument for Ten being near Freeza's level is also flawed. Characters massively stronger than Ten couldn't do what he did against Semi-Perfect Cell. Ten being able to do that with his life force doesn't make him near Freeza's level at all. You're also downplaying Piccolo's gains just to support your argument that doesn't work either. Piccolo after fusing with Kami went from weaker than Android Saga SSJ Trunks, to being equal to 17, who is slightly above 18, who one-shotted SSJ Trunks, and stomped SSJ Vegeta when she got even remotely serious. Piccolo got a dramatic increase.

[Basako]

Your arguments amount to, "the writers have made Tien shit tier, so why should he ever get to be not shit tier?" which is, I'd say, deliberately missing the point. He wasn't always shit tier. His feats in DB make him out to be an experienced and cunning martial artist with a wide array of powerful, interesting, even surprising techniques. His feats in Z have him above Krillin's power level, sometimes by miles. Given his training on Kai's planet and his constant training on his own thereafter, given Super's focus on breathing new life into old characters and establishing that Ki control is as much about willpower and inner peace, it would be entirely possible to show Tien as being Piccolo level (hold it in, buddy, I know about your contempt for Piccolo too, calm down, it's going to be okay). He was never big bad level, nor could he ever keep up with the Saiyans or their adversaries (well, he did alright against the Cell juniors actually ), but he was definitely stronger than all of the humans even if the gulf between him and Piccolo by the time Buu rolled around was enormous.

Anyway, my point is, the writers had the perfect opportunity to scale Tien back up some. He was never bottom of the barrel and he had a variety of techniques to improve upon and awakening his third eye could have been just one simple way to grant him an easy raw power up. Instead the writers made him noticeably weaker and stupider than I've seen him in a very long time. You don't find him entertaining to watch at all? Yeah, in Super, neither do I, but that's the writers' fault and not the character. I always liked Tien from way back in the Saiyan Saga and he didn't participate in the Frieza Saga because he was dead and training with King Kai, but that looked like it should have been a chance at some true advancement for him. Only when he did come back to fight the Androids, he doesn't do a thing until his infamous Neo Tri-Beam spam against Semi-Perfect Cell (a feat that outclasses anything Piccolo could do to Cell at the time). Piccolo makes short work of Android 20 and this is long before he's merged with Kami, so his power level couldn't have skyrocketed too much in the three years between the end of the Frieza saga and meeting these androids. Piccolo was something like 1.5 million at that point and you've got him smashing Android 20. Let's be generous and say that he doubled his power level every year. He'd go from 1.5 to 12 million, very impressive gains, but still nothing even remotely on the level of 100% Final Form Frieza on Namek. Android 19 must have been close to 10 times that powerful and Imperfect Cell had to have a power level close to 180 million or more. Low-balling fairly dramatically, I think it's safe to say that if Tien could do anything to a guy with a power level considerably higher than 200 million (Semi-Perfect Cell), a better feat than fused Piccolo, whose power level must have been higher than Super Saiyan Vegeta before his time training, then clearly Tien was no slouch during the Android Saga.

The problem, then, is that the writers just don't give a damn about power levels and definitely care even less about Tien. Why did they include him just to shit all over him? Who knows? But fused Piccolo was definitely stronger than 100% Final Form Frieza from the Namek Saga, so given that he couldn't even touch Semi-Perfect Cell, the fact that Tien, even by "sacrificing his life force," using a really powerful technique that deliberately drains your stamina in huge chunks, way more physically demanding than a full power Kamehameha, the fact that Tien could do that, then, tells me his power level must have been very high, rivaling Final Form Namek Saga Frieza, maybe not at 100%, but pretty damn far up there. And he's never stopped training since the Android Saga. So since Piccolo never got a dramatic power boost after fusing with Kami and he and Tien both continually train why is it Piccolo has increased his power so much that he can stomp SSJ2 Gohan but Tien looks like a complete tool? Again, not the character's problem, not established canon's problem, but the writers' problem. The writers have made Tien shit tier. Based on feats, Tien deserves a much stronger showing, but the writers have made him dramatically weaker and dumber than Tien at his peak. No, I agree, it's not entertaining, but that's why people are upset at how Super is treating him.

They didn't include him, Toriyama did. From then on, the characters are theirs to write. Like this guy in Youtube points, everyone except Ten got a decent treatment in the recruiting. Goku didn't even consider him, they took him just because Roshi was visiting him. Even trying it's hard to write him worse. They don't care for him, last episode was like something they had to go through. No effort, bad lines and the animation the lowest in the arc. The way he goes down, it doesn't even make sense how he falls but Hermila doesn't and then the three copies jump too. Don't tell me they couldn't come up with something better, even eliminating him in the end.

It's like you say, this is not about Tenshinhan, it's about the vision of the writers about him.

[Ziegander]

While I agree with the overall point, Ten was never a cunning fighter, nor was he stronger than Kuririn the moment Kuririn got his potential unlocked.

I don't care to open up this can of worms, because that would be a mostly opinion-based argument that doesn't really hold any water.

Your argument for Ten being near Freeza's level is also flawed. Characters massively stronger than Ten couldn't do what he did against Semi-Perfect Cell. Ten being able to do that with his life force doesn't make him near Freeza's level at all. You're also downplaying Piccolo's gains just to support your argument that doesn't work either. Piccolo after fusing with Kami went from weaker than Android Saga SSJ Trunks, to being equal to 17, who is slightly above 18, who one-shotted SSJ Trunks, and stomped SSJ Vegeta when she got even remotely serious. Piccolo got a dramatic increase.

This however, I'm not sure what you're getting at. You're using the same kind of logic as supercat here, "Tien is massively weaker than other characters, so, of course, spending his life force to power a super-effective technique just goes to prove how much weaker than other characters he really is!" It doesn't make any sense. I never said Piccolo didn't get a dramatic increase. He went from being, at best, close to 80 million power level, to something like 200 million plus. He outpowered Super Saiyan Vegeta who was, at the time, much stronger than Namek SSJ Goku. Piccolo was a beast, make no mistake, but his best attack couldn't do a thing to Semi-Perfect Cell. I even mentioned that I don't think this puts Tien anywhere near Piccolo's level at the time, but for a human, there's no way, spending his life-force or not (which, really, he's just taking a high toll on his stamina, it's not like the Kikoho is actually taking years off his life, he would be dead by now were that the case), his power level isn't incredibly high, on the order of like 75 million or even higher. When Tien and Krillin fought the Cell Jrs, Tien did noticeably better, there's no way Krillin was in the 75 million power level range.

Now, I am saying, I don't think Tien got any stronger since this point. Maybe barely improved some, and since Super I'm also saying he's definitely gotten noticeably, dramatically weaker than he was then, and really that's the problem. We have a guy who by all rights absolutely shits on Captain Ginyu by the time the androids come into play; if Piccolo can trash Android 20, then Tien's power level's got to be no less than 3 million by this point, for a human he's an absolute monster. You can't tell me, though, that a guy with a power level of only 3 million can do any damn thing to a guy with a power level of 300 million. I don't care how potent you think Kikoho is. That would be like Namek Saga Gohan flew into a rage and hurt 100% Final Form Frieza more than SSJ Goku could. It absolutely could not happen. Gohan's best at that time was maybe around Piccolo's best? That means, if he's lucky, he can fight defensively and manage to not die for a few seconds against Frieza while Goku powers up a Spirit Bomb or something. In no way is he going to damage or even push Frieza back with a power level that's not even 2% of his opponent's. What you're suggesting is that Tien's Neo Tri-Beam is essentially the most powerful Ki blast technique in the entirety of the known multiverses, and I just don't buy it. I'm definitely not arguing that, in the Android Saga, Tien is fused Piccolo level (though by DBS, I am saying he could have every reason to be, should the writers have chosen to do so), no, not even close, but there's just no way Tien is as weak as so many people like to suggest, clearly should not be so weak as the current DBS writers want us to believe (unless for no reason he has become dramatically weaker, and by writers' feats, he has, which he has no reason to have become).

[Jigurashi]

While I agree with the overall point, Ten was never a cunning fighter, nor was he stronger than Kuririn the moment Kuririn got his potential unlocked.

I don't care to open up this can of worms, because that would be a mostly opinion-based argument that doesn't really hold any water.

Your argument for Ten being near Freeza's level is also flawed. Characters massively stronger than Ten couldn't do what he did against Semi-Perfect Cell. Ten being able to do that with his life force doesn't make him near Freeza's level at all. You're also downplaying Piccolo's gains just to support your argument that doesn't work either. Piccolo after fusing with Kami went from weaker than Android Saga SSJ Trunks, to being equal to 17, who is slightly above 18, who one-shotted SSJ Trunks, and stomped SSJ Vegeta when she got even remotely serious. Piccolo got a dramatic increase.

This however, I'm not sure what you're getting at. You're using the same kind of logic as supercat here, "Tien is massively weaker than other characters, so, of course, spending his life force to power a super-effective technique just goes to prove how much weaker than other characters he really is!" It doesn't make any sense. I never said Piccolo didn't get a dramatic increase. He went from being, at best, close to 80 million power level, to something like 200 million plus. He outpowered Super Saiyan Vegeta who was, at the time, much stronger than Namek SSJ Goku. Piccolo was a beast, make no mistake, but his best attack couldn't do a thing to Semi-Perfect Cell. I even mentioned that I don't think this puts Tien anywhere near Piccolo's level at the time, but for a human, there's no way, spending his life-force or not (which, really, he's just taking a high toll on his stamina, it's not like the Kikoho is actually taking years off his life, he would be dead by now were that the case), his power level isn't incredibly high, on the order of like 75 million or even higher. When Tien and Krillin fought the Cell Jrs, Tien did noticeably better, there's no way Krillin was in the 75 million power level range.

Now, I am saying, I don't think Tien got any stronger since this point. Maybe barely improved some, and since Super I'm also saying he's definitely gotten noticeably, dramatically weaker than he was then, and really that's the problem. We have a guy who by all rights absolutely shits on Captain Ginyu by the time the androids come into play; if Piccolo can trash Android 20, then Tien's power level's got to be no less than 3 million by this point, for a human he's an absolute monster. You can't tell me, though, that a guy with a power level of only 3 million can do any damn thing to a guy with a power level of 300 million. I don't care how potent you think Kikoho is. That would be like Namek Saga Gohan flew into a rage and hurt 100% Final Form Frieza more than SSJ Goku could. It absolutely could not happen. Gohan's best at that time was maybe around Piccolo's best? That means, if he's lucky, he can fight defensively and manage to not die for a few seconds against Frieza while Goku powers up a Spirit Bomb or something. In no way is he going to damage or even push Frieza back with a power level that's not even 2% of his opponent's. What you're suggesting is that Tien's Neo Tri-Beam is essentially the most powerful Ki blast technique in the entirety of the known multiverses, and I just don't buy it. I'm definitely not arguing that, in the Android Saga, Tien is fused Piccolo level (though by DBS, I am saying he could have every reason to be, should the writers have chosen to do so), no, not even close, but there's just no way Tien is as weak as so many people like to suggest, clearly should not be so weak as the current DBS writers want us to believe (unless for no reason he has become dramatically weaker, and by writers' feats, he has, which he has no reason to have become).

Firstly, the manga didn't have Ten do any better than Kuririn against the Cell Jrs.

Secondly, you're making the claim that Ten being able to do that has to put him as high as you're claiming, by you're failing to be able to back that up other than just your own belief. Again you have no evidence that proves Android Saga Ten can shit on Ginyu. You're just making claims based on what you think than giving actual evidence. Literally the only thing we know about Ten after Namek was that he was > 32k. To claim he's around 3 mil with little evidence doesn't fly.

Kikoho can't be that potent because you say it can't be? But for the exact same reason why you think Ten is as strong as you thought he was, Incan just easily argue the opposite. The problem with your argument is you have no actual concrete evidence to support your claims and you mix that in with what you feel does and doesn't make sense.

[Ziegander]

You're right, I have little factual evidence, but just looking at the numbers here's what we've got:

Kikoho couldn't even harm the past saiyans when Tien was training for the arrival of Nappa and Vegeta. His power level at the time was, 250 I believe? And the past saiyans are said to be half as strong as Nappa/Vegeta. Now Nappa's got a PL of 4,000 and Vegeta 18,000, so in theory these past saiyans could be as strong as 5,000 to 9,000, but I doubt very much so that they are stronger than Nappa, especially since, if I recall correctly, the Z-Fighters eventually get the best of them while training. It's more likely they are around 2,000 or even 1,500 as Yamcha never gets higher than that while training. So if, at the start of this training, we've got PL 250 Tenshinhan using his Kikoho vs a saiyan with PL 1,500 that's a difference of 6 times in power. The Kikoho can't even touch them.

At some point in between the Frieza Saga and the Cell Saga Tenshinhan devises the Shin Kikoho. It is said to be a more potent version of the technique. Good for you, Tien.

Now, you're right, we don't have any official PL statements about Tien after Namek, as far as I know we don't even know anything after he reached roughly 1,800 after training with Kami in preparation to face Nappa and Vegeta, but obviously he got stronger if his Shin Kikoho is stronger and he spent something like double Goku's time training with King Kai. We don't know how much stronger, but clearly he got stronger. So, even if we go with the 32,000 figure, and let's say his training in preparation to face the Androids made him stronger too, let's give him 36,000, what we know is that his straight Kikoho couldn't hurt a guy that was 6 times his power level when he had a power level of 250 and couldn't even hurt a guy that was a bit more than 2 times his power level when he used it against Nappa. Wow. Now, what you're suggesting is that you think it's plausible that Tien was only around 32,000 when he used the Shin Kikoho against Semi-Perfect Cell, a guy whose power level was probably close to 300 million, a guy who would literally be over 9,000 times more powerful than Tien?! Even if we put Tien at 320,000, then, Cell is still 900 times stronger than him. So, then do you think the Shin Kikoho is seriously not only less stamina draining than the straight Kikoho, but also 1,000 times more powerful as well?

The reason I'm saying Tien's probably closer to 3 million, and why I think that's lowballing him, is because that would still mean his Shin Kikoho is over 100 times more powerful than his Kikoho was, which, to me, still seems like a ludicrously high jump in power. We have examples of ki techniques having higher power level than their users, it's about focus and control, but nothing even remotely so dramatic.

Since there is little evidence of Tien's growth after the Saiyan Saga and no numerical proof, yes, everything I'm saying is based on what "seems reasonable," but something's got to give, man. Even if Tien was at 320,000, Fused Piccolo had a power level of like 250 million or more. His best attacks couldn't even scratch Semi-Perfect Cell, and he has ki blasts whose power levels are higher than his own. Obviously, Tien's Shin Kikoho is a ki blast with a power level multiplier like Piccolo's Makankosappo has, but you're suggesting that the multiplier for the Shin Kikoho is something like, at minimum 1,000 times when Piccolo who has a normal power level 780 times that of Tien's standing power level can only manage an attack with a multiplier of like 3 or 4? I don't know, you're certainly welcome to that opinion, and I'll just end this discussion here because I'm not a fan of back and forth internet arguments that don't go anywhere, but it just doesn't seem plausible to me.

[JazzMazz]

Even trying it's hard to write him worse. They don't care for him, last episode was like something they had to go through. No effort, bad lines and the animation the lowest in the arc. The way he goes down, it doesn't even make sense how he falls but Hermila doesn't and then the three copies jump too. Don't tell me they couldn't come up with something better, even eliminating him in the end.

It's like you say, this is not about Tenshinhan, it's about the vision of the writers about him.

Say what you want about the script and direction of the episode 106, it was not the worst animated episode of the tournament.

[JazzHands]

Why should Tien, the bottom-tier among the current pile of strategist garbage even get a whole episode wasted on him? I don't understand.

He really should have gone down when Narirama was going on his rampage. This would have been a great way to just get him out. I don't find him entertaining to watch at all. Maybe if I want a good laugh sure, but other than that he should make room for the characters that actually matter.

And why was Tien even showing respect to his opponent anyway? Who does that? Just shows he's lost his win win battle mentality. It's also funny because a compliment from weakling like Tien isn't even really worth a pat on the back.

Your arguments amount to, "the writers have made Tien shit tier, so why should he ever get to be not shit tier?" which is, I'd say, deliberately missing the point. He wasn't always shit tier. His feats in DB make him out to be an experienced and cunning martial artist with a wide array of powerful, interesting, even surprising techniques. His feats in Z have him above Krillin's power level, sometimes by miles. Given his training on Kai's planet and his constant training on his own thereafter, given Super's focus on breathing new life into old characters and establishing that Ki control is as much about willpower and inner peace, it would be entirely possible to show Tien as being Piccolo level (hold it in, buddy, I know about your contempt for Piccolo too, calm down, it's going to be okay). He was never big bad level, nor could he ever keep up with the Saiyans or their adversaries (well, he did alright against the Cell juniors actually ), but he was definitely stronger than all of the humans even if the gulf between him and Piccolo by the time Buu rolled around was enormous.

Anyway, my point is, the writers had the perfect opportunity to scale Tien back up some. He was never bottom of the barrel and he had a variety of techniques to improve upon and awakening his third eye could have been just one simple way to grant him an easy raw power up. Instead the writers made him noticeably weaker and stupider than I've seen him in a very long time. You don't find him entertaining to watch at all? Yeah, in Super, neither do I, but that's the writers' fault and not the character. I always liked Tien from way back in the Saiyan Saga and he didn't participate in the Frieza Saga because he was dead and training with King Kai, but that looked like it should have been a chance at some true advancement for him. Only when he did come back to fight the Androids, he doesn't do a thing until his infamous Neo Tri-Beam spam against Semi-Perfect Cell (a feat that outclasses anything Piccolo could do to Cell at the time). Piccolo makes short work of Android 20 and this is long before he's merged with Kami, so his power level couldn't have skyrocketed too much in the three years between the end of the Frieza saga and meeting these androids. Piccolo was something like 1.5 million at that point and you've got him smashing Android 20. Let's be generous and say that he doubled his power level every year. He'd go from 1.5 to 12 million, very impressive gains, but still nothing even remotely on the level of 100% Final Form Frieza on Namek. Android 19 must have been close to 10 times that powerful and Imperfect Cell had to have a power level close to 180 million or more. Low-balling fairly dramatically, I think it's safe to say that if Tien could do anything to a guy with a power level considerably higher than 200 million (Semi-Perfect Cell), a better feat than fused Piccolo, whose power level must have been higher than Super Saiyan Vegeta before his time training, then clearly Tien was no slouch during the Android Saga.

The problem, then, is that the writers just don't give a damn about power levels and definitely care even less about Tien. Why did they include him just to shit all over him? Who knows? But fused Piccolo was definitely stronger than 100% Final Form Frieza from the Namek Saga, so given that he couldn't even touch Semi-Perfect Cell, the fact that Tien, even by "sacrificing his life force," using a really powerful technique that deliberately drains your stamina in huge chunks, way more physically demanding than a full power Kamehameha, the fact that Tien could do that, then, tells me his power level must have been very high, rivaling Final Form Namek Saga Frieza, maybe not at 100%, but pretty damn far up there. And he's never stopped training since the Android Saga. So since Piccolo never got a dramatic power boost after fusing with Kami and he and Tien both continually train why is it Piccolo has increased his power so much that he can stomp SSJ2 Gohan but Tien looks like a complete tool? Again, not the character's problem, not established canon's problem, but the writers' problem. The writers have made Tien shit tier. Based on feats, Tien deserves a much stronger showing, but the writers have made him dramatically weaker and dumber than Tien at his peak. No, I agree, it's not entertaining, but that's why people are upset at how Super is treating him.

While I agree with the overall point, Ten was never a cunning fighter, nor was he stronger than Kuririn the moment Kuririn got his potential unlocked.

Your argument for Ten being near Freeza's level is also flawed. Characters massively stronger than Ten couldn't do what he did against Semi-Perfect Cell. Ten being able to do that with his life force doesn't make him near Freeza's level at all. You're also downplaying Piccolo's gains just to support your argument that doesn't work either. Piccolo after fusing with Kami went from weaker than Android Saga SSJ Trunks, to being equal to 17, who is slightly above 18, who one-shotted SSJ Trunks, and stomped SSJ Vegeta when she got even remotely serious. Piccolo got a dramatic increase.

The Kikoho does not use life force. Do the proper research. Just like Roshi who used all his energy in the Kamehameha its the same principal as when Tien used it in the 22nd tournament and against Nappa. Other than those 2 examples Tien has mastered it to a point where its does not harm him. He used it close to 100 times against Cell. Literally go count. Fire anything that much it will bring you close to death. Hes used it dozens of times since without any repercussions or harm to himself.

[JazzHands]

It seems like a lot of people do not understand how Super works. Akira did not write the fine detail plots. So all the unimaginative and shit on Tien stuff was all Toei and its directors and writers. Toshio the only writer to support Tien as stronger than Roshi, did not rank Krillin over Tien. Confirmed Tien is of alien decent sadly did not write any of Tiens episodes.

Toyotaro works closely with Akira. More than anyone else. So the Manga is more linear in idea because its one mans concept not a dozen. This is the main problem with Super. The manga will play out more respectful to Tien. Akiras notes probably as goes "Goku recruits Tenshinhan at his dojo. Krillin is first eliminated after celebrating an elimination. several major events later ( Such as Kale, 2 universes being eliminated ect. ) universe 7 losses Tenshinhan as he sacrifices himself rescuing the team from a sniper.

[HeroR]

It seems like a lot of people do not understand how Super works. Akira did not write the fine detail plots. So all the unimaginative and shit on Tien stuff was all Toei and its directors and writers. Toshio the only writer to support Tien as stronger than Roshi, did not rank Krillin over Tien. Confirmed Tien is of alien decent sadly did not write any of Tiens episodes.

Toyotaro works closely with Akira. More than anyone else. So the Manga is more linear in idea because its one mans concept not a dozen. This is the main problem with Super. The manga will play out more respectful to Tien. Akiras notes probably as goes "Goku recruits Tenshinhan at his dojo. Krillin is first eliminated after celebrating an elimination. several major events later ( Such as Kale, 2 universes being eliminated ect. ) universe 7 losses Tenshinhan as he sacrifices himself rescuing the team from a sniper.

Krillin being over Tien said by Toriyama, so Toshio is going against Toriyama on that and what does Toshio saying that Tien has alien blood have to do with anything here? Tien's background is never brought up.

That is also you guessing that the manga will more 'respectful' towards Tien, especially given how the manga 'respected' Trunks in his own arc.

[Basako]

It seems like a lot of people do not understand how Super works. Akira did not write the fine detail plots. So all the unimaginative and shit on Tien stuff was all Toei and its directors and writers. Toshio the only writer to support Tien as stronger than Roshi, did not rank Krillin over Tien. Confirmed Tien is of alien decent sadly did not write any of Tiens episodes.

Toyotaro works closely with Akira. More than anyone else. So the Manga is more linear in idea because its one mans concept not a dozen. This is the main problem with Super. The manga will play out more respectful to Tien. Akiras notes probably as goes "Goku recruits Tenshinhan at his dojo. Krillin is first eliminated after celebrating an elimination. several major events later ( Such as Kale, 2 universes being eliminated ect. ) universe 7 losses Tenshinhan as he sacrifices himself rescuing the team from a sniper.

Krillin being over Tien said by Toriyama, so Toshio is going against Toriyama on that and what does Toshio saying that Tien has alien blood have to do with anything here? Tien's background is never brought up.

That is also you guessing that the manga will more 'respectful' towards Tien, especially given how the manga 'respected' Trunks in his own arc.

It's just what Toshio said, not that is canon, but it's not out of place to say it here anyway. But it's not enough for me either. The thing is, we don't have conclusive elements to rank the characters. How strong was Hermila? He was no match for 1/4 Ten. How strong was Majora? Remember also Krilin used a smelly trick. How strong is Ganos? What's up with Roshi? Is he stronger than Tenshinhan, was it the sorcery, the technique or both things? I don't think he is, I agree with Toshio on that, but someone without the background of Z, of course would think he is.

And, yeah, everything about future chapters is guessing, who knows. If Toyotaro does not give Ten an unbelievable power up, but still he portraits him as brave and fighting against stronger enemies, as he did with Trunks, I'm totally in.

'His own arc' thing is just a promotional name, you people give that some kind of value that hasn't. Champa didn't fight in 'his own arc', although we had a cool flashback of him fighting against Beerus somewhere in the past, in the manga. And Trunks was totally relevant and fought in 'his own arc' anyway, his own flashback included.

And now that I think it, I don't think the manga has named its arcs, so why would apply a name given to the anime to it. Toyotaro is not adapting the anime, he writes the manga following mostly Toriyama's outlines with his supervision.

[JazzHands]

It seems like a lot of people do not understand how Super works. Akira did not write the fine detail plots. So all the unimaginative and shit on Tien stuff was all Toei and its directors and writers. Toshio the only writer to support Tien as stronger than Roshi, did not rank Krillin over Tien. Confirmed Tien is of alien decent sadly did not write any of Tiens episodes.

Toyotaro works closely with Akira. More than anyone else. So the Manga is more linear in idea because its one mans concept not a dozen. This is the main problem with Super. The manga will play out more respectful to Tien. Akiras notes probably as goes "Goku recruits Tenshinhan at his dojo. Krillin is first eliminated after celebrating an elimination. several major events later ( Such as Kale, 2 universes being eliminated ect. ) universe 7 losses Tenshinhan as he sacrifices himself rescuing the team from a sniper.

Krillin being over Tien said by Toriyama, so Toshio is going against Toriyama on that and what does Toshio saying that Tien has alien blood have to do with anything here? Tien's background is never brought up.

That is also you guessing that the manga will more 'respectful' towards Tien, especially given how the manga 'respected' Trunks in his own arc.

I do not know why you isolated that line in particular. Akira never named any names that Krillin is stronger than. "Earthling" is so vague as 17 and 18 are Earthlings and you can even consider Gohan,Goten and Trunks Earthlings. The statement for Krillin has never been backed up visually. Even this tournament, where the build up we got so much Krillin ended up with him being first eliminated and to be completely over taken in feats by Roshi.

But the point I was making was that the one writer that seemed to have a grasp and excitment for Tenshinhan never wrote or was involved in any of his episodes.

[HeroR]

I do not know why you isolated that line in particular. Akira never named any names that Krillin is stronger than. "Earthling" is so vague as 17 and 18 are Earthlings and you can even consider Gohan,Goten and Trunks Earthlings. The statement for Krillin has never been backed up visually. Even this tournament, where the build up we got so much Krillin ended up with him being first eliminated and to be completely over taken in feats by Roshi.

But the point I was making was that the one writer that seemed to have a grasp and excitment for Tenshinhan never wrote or was involved in any of his episodes.

While I don't remember the exact quote, Toriyama called Krillin the strongest human or Earthling. I doubt he counted 17 and 18 since they are enhanced and are cyborgs. All the halflings are also called Saiyans, or halfbread, never just Earthling. They are never referred to Earthling in any material outside of some enemies using Earthlings meaning anyone from Earth.

Ah, yes it has. Outside of Tien's last stand against Cell, Krillin has shown better feats than Tien since the Saiyan Saga like him killing four Saibermen with one attack and everything he did on Namek. And Krillin was taken out because he was off-guard, not because of a lack of skill, something that wouldn't happened to Roshi. There is also Yamcha back in the Buu Saga calling Krillin the strongest along with that interview. So, Toriyama puts Krillin over Tien even if you want to dismissed Yamcha's line as fluff.

Krillin is the strongest Earthling/human, not Tien. Also, since you don't know the feelings of the other writers since they don't Tweet, you're assuming that no one cared since even if they did, it's the director of the series that dictates what happens, not the writers.

[JazzHands]

I do not know why you isolated that line in particular. Akira never named any names that Krillin is stronger than. "Earthling" is so vague as 17 and 18 are Earthlings and you can even consider Gohan,Goten and Trunks Earthlings. The statement for Krillin has never been backed up visually. Even this tournament, where the build up we got so much Krillin ended up with him being first eliminated and to be completely over taken in feats by Roshi.

But the point I was making was that the one writer that seemed to have a grasp and excitment for Tenshinhan never wrote or was involved in any of his episodes.

While I don't remember the exact quote, Toriyama called Krillin the strongest human or Earthling. I doubt he counted 17 and 18 since they are enhanced and are cyborgs. All the halflings are also called Saiyans, or halfbread, never just Earthling. They are never referred to Earthling in any material outside of some enemies using Earthlings meaning anyone from Earth.

Ah, yes it has. Outside of Tien's last stand against Cell, Krillin has shown better feats than Tien since the Saiyan Saga like him killing four Saibermen with one attack and everything he did on Namek. And Krillin was taken out because he was off-guard, not because of a lack of skill, something that wouldn't happened to Roshi. There is also Yamcha back in the Buu Saga calling Krillin the strongest along with that interview. So, Toriyama puts Krillin over Tien even if you want to dismissed Yamcha's line as fluff.

Krillin is the strongest Earthling/human, not Tien. Also, since you don't know the feelings of the other writers since they don't Tweet, you're assuming that no one cared since even if they did, it's the director of the series that dictates what happens, not the writers.

Tien is officially recorded by power levels stronger than Krillin in the Sayain arc so dont know why bring that up. Its clear Tien could take out just as many saibamen given he took one out with one hit. Tien was dead in the Namek arc. So we if Krillin did surpass him it must be Android saga on. And nothing in Z showed that. Android-Buu saga Krillin was either scared, getting beat up or stoped training. Goku Kept Tien against 19 and 20, Tien tried to fight 17. Tien held back 2nd form Cell which is a huge feat, he wasnt the first to go down against a Cell jr. That was Krillin. Tien led the charge to help Gohan convincing Krillin to go. And Tien deflected Buutenks blast saving the lives of key characters that would play a major role in the last battle. Battle of Gods Krillin doesnt help out Tien does against Beerus. In both tellings of revival of Frieza Tien does better while Krillin struggles in some way either physically or mentally.

The TOP was a chance to show a gap between the two yet feat wise since we dont know the strength of those eliminated we cant determine. Tien had Hermilla defeated. And that was 1/4rth Tien. The same Hermilla who blasted Piccolos arms off and had Gohan hiding under a rock. Krillin contributed more with one more assist and saving his wife. But Tien lasted longer and survived more attacks. That can be a draw. But then they throw in this Roshi mess. So the conversation does not even have to be about Tien and Krillin. Because Roshis display of sheer power trumps both of them. So strongest Earthling? No Krillin has never backed that claim up. Not saying its not true. But theres nothing to prove it using the material in front of you.

Its clear majority of writers did not care. They hijacked Tiens episode. Everyone else got a simple recruiting or training episode. Why make the Yurin story line and witch craft? Episode 90. They couldnt let Tien do not one thing? The tournament they forgot to draw him in some frames. If Roshi was going to get such a big shine. Why not give Tien the cheap elimination of that green bird in episode 99 instead of Roshi? Its because they didnt think. Prum and Dr.Rota were throw aways. You gave Roshi 3 eliminations in one episode. If Tien is second to go why not include those throw away characters?
But thats all I have to say. These types of convos go back and forth.

[Mertor]

I do not know why you isolated that line in particular. Akira never named any names that Krillin is stronger than. "Earthling" is so vague as 17 and 18 are Earthlings and you can even consider Gohan,Goten and Trunks Earthlings. The statement for Krillin has never been backed up visually. Even this tournament, where the build up we got so much Krillin ended up with him being first eliminated and to be completely over taken in feats by Roshi.

But the point I was making was that the one writer that seemed to have a grasp and excitment for Tenshinhan never wrote or was involved in any of his episodes.

While I don't remember the exact quote, Toriyama called Krillin the strongest human or Earthling. I doubt he counted 17 and 18 since they are enhanced and are cyborgs. All the halflings are also called Saiyans, or halfbread, never just Earthling. They are never referred to Earthling in any material outside of some enemies using Earthlings meaning anyone from Earth.

Ah, yes it has. Outside of Tien's last stand against Cell, Krillin has shown better feats than Tien since the Saiyan Saga like him killing four Saibermen with one attack and everything he did on Namek. And Krillin was taken out because he was off-guard, not because of a lack of skill, something that wouldn't happened to Roshi. There is also Yamcha back in the Buu Saga calling Krillin the strongest along with that interview. So, Toriyama puts Krillin over Tien even if you want to dismissed Yamcha's line as fluff.

Krillin is the strongest Earthling/human, not Tien. Also, since you don't know the feelings of the other writers since they don't Tweet, you're assuming that no one cared since even if they did, it's the director of the series that dictates what happens, not the writers.

Tien is officially recorded by power levels stronger than Krillin in the Sayain arc so dont know why bring that up. Its clear Tien could take out just as many saibamen given he took one out with one hit. Tien was dead in the Namek arc. So we if Krillin did surpass him it must be Android saga on. And nothing in Z showed that. Android-Buu saga Krillin was either scared, getting beat up or stoped training. Goku Kept Tien against 19 and 20, Tien tried to fight 17. Tien held back 2nd form Cell which is a huge feat, he wasnt the first to go down against a Cell jr. That was Krillin. Tien led the charge to help Gohan convincing Krillin to go. And Tien deflected Buutenks blast saving the lives of key characters that would play a major role in the last battle. Battle of Gods Krillin doesnt help out Tien does against Beerus. In both tellings of revival of Frieza Tien does better while Krillin struggles in some way either physically or mentally.

The TOP was a chance to show a gap between the two yet feat wise since we dont know the strength of those eliminated we cant determine. Tien had Hermilla defeated. And that was 1/4rth Tien. The same Hermilla who blasted Piccolos arms off and had Gohan hiding under a rock. Krillin contributed more with one more assist and saving his wife. But Tien lasted longer and survived more attacks. That can be a draw. But then they throw in this Roshi mess. So the conversation does not even have to be about Tien and Krillin. Because Roshis display of sheer power trumps both of them. So strongest Earthling? No Krillin has never backed that claim up. Not saying its not true. But theres nothing to prove it using the material in front of you.

Its clear majority of writers did not care. They hijacked Tiens episode. Everyone else got a simple recruiting or training episode. Why make the Yurin story line and witch craft? Episode 90. They couldnt let Tien do not one thing? The tournament they forgot to draw him in some frames. If Roshi was going to get such a big shine. Why not give Tien the cheap elimination of that green bird in episode 99 instead of Roshi? Its because they didnt think. Prum and Dr.Rota were throw aways. You gave Roshi 3 eliminations in one episode. If Tien is second to go why not include those throw away characters?
But thats all I have to say. These types of convos go back and forth.

Seriously, I thought that at least here, people are not going to bring fillers in a form of argument. In manga Tien, Kuririn and Yamcha were shown as KO-ed, this is all. There was not a fight shown.

Kuririn was shown to have more potential than Tien since the begining of Z. First of all, he was younger and he started much weaker than Tien. Tien was as strong as Goku in 22th budokai while Kuririn was at least a tier lower. Then Z came and it was 250 to 206. Still big gap (in form of percentage) and then Saiyan Saga came and it was 1770 to 1830 (less than 10% gap). It clearly shows that Kuririn was constantly catching up to Tien. Then Tien happened to die, while Kuririn went on Namek, saved Vegeta and Gohan at least few times and tangled with strongest guys around. Kuririn power level skyrocketed from barely 2000 to 13 000 then to about 30 000 (Ginyu Fight) and then to at least 150 000 (if he was considered as a help against Frieza and his second form). This pretty much showed that Kuririn is far more important to author than Tien, who in context of fighting was thrown aside after Saiyan Saga. While Kuririn remained in main cast. How Tien was able to catch up to Kuririn who left him in dust during Namek skirmish? Remember also that Kuririn is the only human being who was praised by Vegeta (a few times actually, first time during saiyan saga) and the only fighter besides Piccolo who was somewhow able to tangle with Nappa (due to his skills, not power). While Tien only managed to lost a hand.

You show the courage of Tien, I cannot deny that but the only thing he managed to do was ragdolled by 17. Keeping Tien is literally stupid argument because he send back Gohan who was stronger than Kuririn, Tien and Yamcha. He send Kuririn with Yamcha probably because they were friends. Kikoho against 2nd form Cell is far from a feat itself because it didn't damaged him at all. Unless you want to tell me, that Piccolo kicking Final Form Frieza across half of the planet was a huge feat. It wasn't. Charge against Cell was also filler (it never happened actually) and if you want to go with fillers, then Kuririn put up a nice fight against Imperfect Cell on the airport. Actually damaging him and dodging his attacks. About listed power levels if you want to say about 1830 then go ahead. The problem is that the guidebooks also stated two other Kuririn power levels. There were: 13 000 for Guldo Fight (which is actually correct judging by Burter and Jeice coments) and 75 000 from other guidebook (cannot agree with that, cause 75 000 is a bit low for Frieza fight).

Kuririn attacked Cell and attacked Super Buu if you want to consider as feat, attacking a guy and being ragdolled (Tien does it constantly). Kuririn did not attacked Berrus cause Gohan specificaly asked him to take others to safety (just like Goten was asked as far as I recall). Buutenks blast is also weird argument cause it was the simplest generic ki blast aimed at Dende and Mr Satan (how much power Buu used against them?), then Gohan Buu literally kicked Tien to oblivion. Lasting longer in the tournament means anything unless you want to tell me that Tien, Roshi or Kuririn are stronger than Trio of Danger. Kuririn was kicked out by Frost, guy whom is a few tiers higher than Piccolo.

As you can see, there are many arguments which shows that Kuririn>Tien. Specifically the fact that he is important member of the team in comparison to Tien who was simply thrown aside. Sad story but true. Saiyan Saga shown perfectly who is more important to Toriyama. Who had a better feats against Nappa and Vegeta and who went on Namek. Didn't Piccolo literally stated during reviving that Tien and Yamcha should not be revived and bring on Namek due to the fact, that they will be burden for Vegeta, Kuririn and Gohan?

About fighting with frieza army. Kuririn did not have a problem. He was handling them pretty well but then again he is a comic relief for the series so him smacking into a tree, is not something weird. His PTSD is normal. He was standing against guy who literally imploted him with his mind and impaled him and now he is stronger than before. It is normal to be frightented by that fact.

[JazzMazz]

While I don't remember the exact quote, Toriyama called Krillin the strongest human or Earthling. I doubt he counted 17 and 18 since they are enhanced and are cyborgs. All the halflings are also called Saiyans, or halfbread, never just Earthling. They are never referred to Earthling in any material outside of some enemies using Earthlings meaning anyone from Earth.

Ah, yes it has. Outside of Tien's last stand against Cell, Krillin has shown better feats than Tien since the Saiyan Saga like him killing four Saibermen with one attack and everything he did on Namek. And Krillin was taken out because he was off-guard, not because of a lack of skill, something that wouldn't happened to Roshi. There is also Yamcha back in the Buu Saga calling Krillin the strongest along with that interview. So, Toriyama puts Krillin over Tien even if you want to dismissed Yamcha's line as fluff.

Krillin is the strongest Earthling/human, not Tien. Also, since you don't know the feelings of the other writers since they don't Tweet, you're assuming that no one cared since even if they did, it's the director of the series that dictates what happens, not the writers.

Tien is officially recorded by power levels stronger than Krillin in the Sayain arc so dont know why bring that up. Its clear Tien could take out just as many saibamen given he took one out with one hit. Tien was dead in the Namek arc. So we if Krillin did surpass him it must be Android saga on. And nothing in Z showed that. Android-Buu saga Krillin was either scared, getting beat up or stoped training. Goku Kept Tien against 19 and 20, Tien tried to fight 17. Tien held back 2nd form Cell which is a huge feat, he wasnt the first to go down against a Cell jr. That was Krillin. Tien led the charge to help Gohan convincing Krillin to go. And Tien deflected Buutenks blast saving the lives of key characters that would play a major role in the last battle. Battle of Gods Krillin doesnt help out Tien does against Beerus. In both tellings of revival of Frieza Tien does better while Krillin struggles in some way either physically or mentally.

The TOP was a chance to show a gap between the two yet feat wise since we dont know the strength of those eliminated we cant determine. Tien had Hermilla defeated. And that was 1/4rth Tien. The same Hermilla who blasted Piccolos arms off and had Gohan hiding under a rock. Krillin contributed more with one more assist and saving his wife. But Tien lasted longer and survived more attacks. That can be a draw. But then they throw in this Roshi mess. So the conversation does not even have to be about Tien and Krillin. Because Roshis display of sheer power trumps both of them. So strongest Earthling? No Krillin has never backed that claim up. Not saying its not true. But theres nothing to prove it using the material in front of you.

Its clear majority of writers did not care. They hijacked Tiens episode. Everyone else got a simple recruiting or training episode. Why make the Yurin story line and witch craft? Episode 90. They couldnt let Tien do not one thing? The tournament they forgot to draw him in some frames. If Roshi was going to get such a big shine. Why not give Tien the cheap elimination of that green bird in episode 99 instead of Roshi? Its because they didnt think. Prum and Dr.Rota were throw aways. You gave Roshi 3 eliminations in one episode. If Tien is second to go why not include those throw away characters?
But thats all I have to say. These types of convos go back and forth.

Seriously, I thought that at least here, people are not going to bring fillers in a form of argument. In manga Tien, Kuririn and Yamcha were shown as KO-ed, this is all. There was not a fight shown.

Kuririn was shown to have more potential than Tien since the begining of Z. First of all, he was younger and he started much weaker than Tien. Tien was as strong as Goku in 22th budokai while Kuririn was at least a tier lower. Then Z came and it was 250 to 206. Still big gap (in form of percentage) and then Saiyan Saga came and it was 1770 to 1830 (less than 10% gap). It clearly shows that Kuririn was constantly catching up to Tien. Then Tien happened to die, while Kuririn went on Namek, saved Vegeta and Gohan at least few times and tangled with strongest guys around. Kuririn power level skyrocketed from barely 2000 to 13 000 then to about 30 000 (Ginyu Fight) and then to at least 150 000 (if he was considered as a help against Frieza and his second form). This pretty much showed that Kuririn is far more important to author than Tien, who in context of fighting was thrown aside after Saiyan Saga. While Kuririn remained in main cast. How Tien was able to catch up to Kuririn who left him in dust during Namek skirmish? Remember also that Kuririn is the only human being who was praised by Vegeta (a few times actually, first time during saiyan saga) and the only fighter besides Piccolo who was somewhow able to tangle with Nappa (due to his skills, not power). While Tien only managed to lost a hand.

You show the courage of Tien, I cannot deny that but the only thing he managed to do was ragdolled by 17. Keeping Tien is literally stupid argument because he send back Gohan who was stronger than Kuririn, Tien and Yamcha. He send Kuririn with Yamcha probably because they were friends. Kikoho against 2nd form Cell is far from a feat itself because it didn't damaged him at all. Unless you want to tell me, that Piccolo kicking Final Form Frieza across half of the planet was a huge feat. It wasn't. Charge against Cell was also filler (it never happened actually) and if you want to go with fillers, then Kuririn put up a nice fight against Imperfect Cell on the airport. Actually damaging him and dodging his attacks. About listed power levels if you want to say about 1830 then go ahead. The problem is that the guidebooks also stated two other Kuririn power levels. There were: 13 000 for Guldo Fight (which is actually correct judging by Burter and Jeice coments) and 75 000 from other guidebook (cannot agree with that, cause 75 000 is a bit low for Frieza fight).

Kuririn attacked Cell and attacked Super Buu if you want to consider as feat, attacking a guy and being ragdolled (Tien does it constantly). Kuririn did not attacked Berrus cause Gohan specificaly asked him to take others to safety (just like Goten was asked as far as I recall). Buutenks blast is also weird argument cause it was the simplest generic ki blast aimed at Dende and Mr Satan (how much power Buu used against them?), then Gohan Buu literally kicked Tien to oblivion. Lasting longer in the tournament means anything unless you want to tell me that Tien, Roshi or Kuririn are stronger than Trio of Danger. Kuririn was kicked out by Frost, guy whom is a few tiers higher than Piccolo.

As you can see, there are many arguments which shows that Kuririn>Tien. Specifically the fact that he is important member of the team in comparison to Tien who was simply thrown aside. Sad story but true. Saiyan Saga shown perfectly who is more important to Toriyama. Who had a better feats against Nappa and Vegeta and who went on Namek. Didn't Piccolo literally stated during reviving that Tien and Yamcha should not be revived and bring on Namek due to the fact, that they will be burden for Vegeta, Kuririn and Gohan?

About fighting with frieza army. Kuririn did not have a problem. He was handling them pretty well but then again he is a comic relief for the series so him smacking into a tree, is not something weird. His PTSD is normal. He was standing against guy who literally imploted him with his mind and impaled him and now he is stronger than before. It is normal to be frightented by that fact.

Fact Check: That did happen in the manga and it is an impressive feat. When Piccolo kicked Freeza, he was taken by surprise as he couldn't sense an opponents ki. Even then, Piccolo says that surprise attack was the best he could possibly do. When Ten held down Semi-Perfect Cell, who was less easily taken by surprise as he could sense Ki and actually saw Ten charge his attack, you think that Cell being literally at least dozens of times stronger than wouldn't have been effected in the least(he tanked Piccolo's light grenade like it was nothing), that however, was not what happened. It at least goes to show that Ten's Neo KiKoHo has incredible destructive capabilties when he puts some life force into it.

Edit: Are you referring to the final charge against Cell are the Kikoho scene? I think I may have gotten confused due to how the sentences flow into each other.

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Even this tournament, where the build up we got so much Krillin ended up with him being first eliminated and to be completely over taken in feats by Roshi.

He really wasn't, even taking into account that he's still weaker than 18 Kuririn was going blow for blow with Majora, a guy who could knock an on guard 18 to the ground:




Not to mention he has a feat of being too fast for Roshi to perceive him literally snatching his glasses off his face during a battle royale:




If Kuririn had been on an opposing team and Roshi wasn't with Piccolo or Gohan that would've led to a speedblitz one-shot.

Tien is officially recorded by power levels stronger than Krillin in the Sayain arc so dont know why bring that up. Its clear Tien could take out just as many saibamen given he took one out with one hit.

The difference between them wasn't by much when you look at them: 1,770 vs 1,830 during the Saiyan invasion, that's about a 3% difference. Impressive on Kuririn's part when you consider Tenshinhan started out a lot stronger, is a bit older and trained longer. Seems to me that Kuririn has a ton of potential.

Android-Buu saga Krillin was either scared, getting beat up or stoped training.

And what did Tenshinhan do besides shoot off the Shin Kikoho for two arcs? Get beat up.

Goku Kept Tien against 19 and 20,

That means literally nothing, Goku also sent Gohan to get Yajirobe. Do you want to use that argument to say he's stronger than Gohan too?

Tien tried to fight 17.

Which was a dumb decision on his part for trying to take on guys who can fodderize Super Saiyans and Piccolo. Kuririn had the senzu beans, him getting knocked out would've resulted in the others dying from their injuries. This doesn't even have anything to do with strength.

Tien held back 2nd form Cell which is a huge feat

Sure it is, for the Shin Kikoho. In order for us to even compare this to Kuririn (or anyone else) we have to have Kuririn also use the technique against the same version of Cell otherwise there's no way to make a comparison. Tenshinhan literally used an upgrade to a technique that was described as being more potent than the Kamehameha and it almost killed him in the process, if he had tried to fight Cell with physical strikes like Kuririn or #16 did he'd get treated just the same: one-shot fodder.

If any thing this says more about the techniques concussive/destructive capabilities.

he wasnt the first to go down against a Cell jr. That was Krillin.

This means nothing since the Cell Jrs. could kill any of the Earthlings anytime they wanted. Just because one Cell Jr. decides to one-shot fodder as soon as possible doesn't mean the others couldn't have done the same, they were all being toyed with and rag-dolled.

I love how you want to use this type of logic when it's convenient. Kuririn out lasted and out lived Tenshinhan during the Saiyan invasion despite being slightly weaker, but that was only because Nappa chose to take out Tenshinhan sooner. He could've killed any of those guys anytime, the same thing with the Cell Jrs. here.

Tien led the charge to help Gohan convincing Krillin to go.

Nothing to do with strength.

And Tien deflected Buutenks blast saving the lives of key characters that would play a major role in the last battle.

Nothing to do with strength. Since you want to use the anime Kuririn distracted Boo enough for Dende to escape, so they've tied for importance here anyway.

Battle of Gods Krillin doesnt help out Tien does against Beerus. In both tellings of revival of Frieza Tien does better while Krillin struggles in some way either physically or mentally.

Didn't Roshi already explain this in episode 75?

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Kuririn lacked confidence in himself which is what resulted in these scenes. It's all a mental block and had nothing to do with him being weaker.

The TOP was a chance to show a gap between the two yet feat wise since we dont know the strength of those eliminated we cant determine. Tien had Hermilla defeated. And that was 1/4rth Tien. The same Hermilla who blasted Piccolos arms off and had Gohan hiding under a rock. Krillin contributed more with one more assist and saving his wife. But Tien lasted longer and survived more attacks. That can be a draw. But then they throw in this Roshi mess. So the conversation does not even have to be about Tien and Krillin. Because Roshis display of sheer power trumps both of them

Roshi defeated those guys by being tactical. Ganos had the power advantage, speed advantage, and youth but not much experience, Roshi easily analyzed his combat style to evade before the attacks could land. That's what the episode was about, it was technique over power. Even with Roshi's final Kamehameha, he died using that much power anyway and Ganos wasn't even impressive to begin with.

And besides, the guys Roshi defeated had worse feats than Majora and Shosa, who were blocking attacks from C18 and even occasionally knocking her off her feet, the same guys Kuririn was keeping pace with, tagging and trading blows with. By feats, Kuririn was more impressive.

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Seriously, I thought that at least here, people are not going to bring fillers in a form of argument. In manga Tien, Kuririn and Yamcha were shown as KO-ed, this is all. There was not a fight shown.

Kuririn was shown to have more potential than Tien since the begining of Z. First of all, he was younger and he started much weaker than Tien. Tien was as strong as Goku in 22th budokai while Kuririn was at least a tier lower. Then Z came and it was 250 to 206. Still big gap (in form of percentage) and then Saiyan Saga came and it was 1770 to 1830 (less than 10% gap). It clearly shows that Kuririn was constantly catching up to Tien. Then Tien happened to die, while Kuririn went on Namek, saved Vegeta and Gohan at least few times and tangled with strongest guys around. Kuririn power level skyrocketed from barely 2000 to 13 000 then to about 30 000 (Ginyu Fight) and then to at least 150 000 (if he was considered as a help against Frieza and his second form). This pretty much showed that Kuririn is far more important to author than Tien, who in context of fighting was thrown aside after Saiyan Saga. While Kuririn remained in main cast. How Tien was able to catch up to Kuririn who left him in dust during Namek skirmish? Remember also that Kuririn is the only human being who was praised by Vegeta (a few times actually, first time during saiyan saga) and the only fighter besides Piccolo who was somewhow able to tangle with Nappa (due to his skills, not power). While Tien only managed to lost a hand.

You show the courage of Tien, I cannot deny that but the only thing he managed to do was ragdolled by 17. Keeping Tien is literally stupid argument because he send back Gohan who was stronger than Kuririn, Tien and Yamcha. He send Kuririn with Yamcha probably because they were friends. Kikoho against 2nd form Cell is far from a feat itself because it didn't damaged him at all. Unless you want to tell me, that Piccolo kicking Final Form Frieza across half of the planet was a huge feat. It wasn't. Charge against Cell was also filler (it never happened actually) and if you want to go with fillers, then Kuririn put up a nice fight against Imperfect Cell on the airport. Actually damaging him and dodging his attacks. About listed power levels if you want to say about 1830 then go ahead. The problem is that the guidebooks also stated two other Kuririn power levels. There were: 13 000 for Guldo Fight (which is actually correct judging by Burter and Jeice coments) and 75 000 from other guidebook (cannot agree with that, cause 75 000 is a bit low for Frieza fight).

Kuririn attacked Cell and attacked Super Buu if you want to consider as feat, attacking a guy and being ragdolled (Tien does it constantly). Kuririn did not attacked Berrus cause Gohan specificaly asked him to take others to safety (just like Goten was asked as far as I recall). Buutenks blast is also weird argument cause it was the simplest generic ki blast aimed at Dende and Mr Satan (how much power Buu used against them?), then Gohan Buu literally kicked Tien to oblivion. Lasting longer in the tournament means anything unless you want to tell me that Tien, Roshi or Kuririn are stronger than Trio of Danger. Kuririn was kicked out by Frost, guy whom is a few tiers higher than Piccolo.

As you can see, there are many arguments which shows that Kuririn>Tien. Specifically the fact that he is important member of the team in comparison to Tien who was simply thrown aside. Sad story but true. Saiyan Saga shown perfectly who is more important to Toriyama. Who had a better feats against Nappa and Vegeta and who went on Namek. Didn't Piccolo literally stated during reviving that Tien and Yamcha should not be revived and bring on Namek due to the fact, that they will be burden for Vegeta, Kuririn and Gohan?

About fighting with frieza army. Kuririn did not have a problem. He was handling them pretty well but then again he is a comic relief for the series so him smacking into a tree, is not something weird. His PTSD is normal. He was standing against guy who literally imploted him with his mind and impaled him and now he is stronger than before. It is normal to be frightented by that fact.

Without fillers, there are plenty instances of earthlings being usefull with an assisting role. Once the power levels started to increase exponentially, they were left behind, but they did their part, normally with huge gaps between them and the enemies. If Krilin hadn't been there against Vegeta, he would have won, that goes for Yajirobe too, so there you have. Debating his part in Namek is ridiculous, it was a quest for the dragon balls and in the fight against the tyrant he also contributed so much.

Tenshinhan's Kikoho with Cell was totally a feat, it wasn't an attack that failed, he held Cell so 18 and 16 could escape, which is what he intended to do and no one else could have done that, not even Goku. It's not like when Krilin attacked Cell, that meant nothing and he never attacked Boo. Tenshinhan showed up and didn't do much, but if he hadn't saved Mr. Satan, the Genkidama would have failed.

Krilin had Saichoro's boost and Tenshinhan trained with Kaio for more time than Goku and arrived in better condition than him to his planet. In-universe there are reasons for the debate about Krilin and Tenshinhan and I would go for Ten if we only had that. I go with Krilin just because I don't think Toriyama was excluding Tenshinhan as earthling when he said he was the strongest, but I'm not in Toriyama's head, so who knows. The truth is the androids are earthlings too, so that statement is wrong from the start. It was Toshio the one bringing Tenshinhan's alien inheritance to the debate again, so there are really arguments for both.