Did (Manga) Vegeta reach SSjG from the ritual or from training with Whis?

[Dragon Wukong]

In my personal opinion, Battle of Gods and Resurrection of F implied that Vegeta did the ritual at some point off-screen.



Given the manga follows the movie RoF, I'd assume Vegeta just did the ritual off-screen rather than attaining SSB on his own like in the anime.

[TheMikado]

The manga explicitly states SSG is the level before SSB so while we don’t know for sure how he got it we know he should have it and so far the only way shown to get it explicitly in the manga is through the ritual.

[Lupin879]

Training the ssg is a ssb base

[Lord Beerus]

Well, the interview with Toyotaro and Toriyama pretty much states that Vegeta did indeed obtain SSJG through off-screen training in the ROSAT.

So... yeah. Lazy writing.

[VegettoEX]

Looking to implement word filters across the forum for "lazy writing" and "asspull", but I'm having a difficult time coming up with a comprehensive paragraph that elegantly yet succinctly explains the issue in appropriate terms more in line with what we expect of our community according to our forum guidelines.

Anyone have any suggestions? This thread seems like a great one to ask in!

[Kamiccolo9]

Looking to implement word filters across the forum for "lazy writing" and "asspull", but I'm having a difficult time coming up with a comprehensive paragraph that elegantly yet succinctly explains the issue in appropriate terms more in line with what we expect of our community according to our forum guidelines.

Anyone have any suggestions? This thread seems like a great one to ask in!

"Literary technique that does not fit my subjective views of 'good storytelling.'"

[emperior]

Vegeta attaining SSJG is never explained in the manga. Vegeta just trained in the ROSAT for one day (one year), and then displayed he could transform into SSJG and stated he needed this form to fight Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black.

If he did have the form prior to his trip in the ROSAT, then he's absolute fucking moron for not using the form against Cabba or Hit in the Champa arc or against Goku Black in his first encounter with him. In both of those scenarios, he could have easily won those fights without wasting energy.

If he didn't attain the from to his training in the ROSAT, then that's just lazy writing. How in the hell did he become a Super Saiyan Blue, if he didn't have Super Saiyan God to begin with? Did he brute force his way to becoming a Super Saiyan Blue and then just spent one day (one year) training and attained Super Saiyan God after that? Because if that's the case, that undermines a hell of a lot of Battle Of Gods.

The anime at least had the throwaway line which states that Vegeta brute forced his way to becoming a Super Saiyan God while training with Goku. But that's the lesser of two evils in this scenario, because it's still just lazy writing and makes Super Saiyan God less of a mystical transformation and just a cheap and convenient power-up. You don't even need the ritual at all to achieve the form. You just need to train hard enough. Fuck that nonsense. Do something unique with the Godly transformations. Don't make them into cheap power-ups anybody can get their hands on. That's not saying that Super Saiyan God wasn't already easy and cheap form to attain that to begin with, but it could have at least been expanded on.

I hope Toyotaro will clear all this up in the future. Vegeta having SSJG in the manga is a no-win situation at this stage.

Vegeta showing Blue to Cabba would be pointless if it was unobtainable with ordinary methods. He would have punched Cabba hard, and after that he would have told him there's a level of power beyond SSJ he can attain just by holding hands with his best friends. The point of the scene is showing that, no matter what, you can get everything through hard work. Vegeta brute forcing his way towards Blue is so Dragon Ball and I love it.
Plus, the fact the ritual isn't abused makes it more special, and also justifies them not doing it on Future Trunks or Gohan. My headcanon is that Saiyans can only perform the ritual under dire situations where they have to save people, as in those moments their hearts are "righteous". Vegeta using SSG in the manga didn't make much sense. That was just some fanservice.

[Omniboy]

I was always thought that Super saiyan god was just base with god ki and that SSGSS was god ki with super saiyan... but I guess that's too simple. This show seems hell bent on making things overly complex.

As for how Vegeta got god ki and the god forms... I dunno. The manga gives us no explanation and the anime gives us some weird and contrived explanation like "energy leaking" ...whatever that means.


EDIT: Wait never mind. Vegeta gained god ki by training and SSGSS from his ki leaking. I thought he got god ki and SSGSS both from his ki leaking. But apart from that, yea the manga dosen't explain how Vegeta got his SSG form.

[Miracles]

Obviously Vegeta achieved red through training.

[Kinokima]

Obviously Vegeta achieved red through training.

This is what I like to believe. He was training with Whis so it's not like it came out of completely nowhere.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

My headcanon on the matter is based on throwing bits of the anime into the mix.

Basically, it's assumed that Goku and Vegeta figured out how to turn SSB in Whis's staff dimension. Of course, we never see them actually transform for the first time, so we're left speculating on how things went down. My idea was that, by using what Whis taught them on Ki control, they learned how to tap into the power of SSG and keep it within themselves. To further expand on it, as the two are doing this, Goku transforms into a SSG. Vegeta decides he's having none of that and decides to go SS instead, becoming SSB. Goku does the same, and thus both achieve SSB.

In the manga, it could be that learning how to tap into SSG's power is a skill Vegeta and Goku already made use of to evolve their SS forms into SSB, but Vegeta just never bothered with turning SSG from doing this until after his defeat at the hands of Goku Black, after which he decides to train for the form to use it like Goku did in the tournament between Universes 6 and 7.

[Black Hawk]

I believe that Vegeta underwent the SSJ Red ritual, as Dragon Wukong suggested, between the Battle of Gods and Revival of 'F' films and absorbed its power just as Gokū did. In the Revival of 'F' film, we see that both Gokū and Vegeta have the power of SSJ Red in their base forms and powering up further turns their SSJ1 into SSJ Blue.

After some discussions with DBZGTKOSDH, I believe that Gokū and Vegeta training for three years in the Room of Spirit and Time wasn't so much to get stronger as it was to master the SSJ Blue form to the extent that they had access once again to their normal base, SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3, and Enraged SSJ2 forms, as we see in the tournament between Universe Six and Universe Seven, as well as the SSJ Blue aura difference before and after their training; however, I also believe that they did not immediately reacquire access to SSJ Red and that only Gokū reacquired it via training, which is why Gokū could use it against Hit when Vegeta could not, as he otherwise would have since he couldn't even use 10% of SSJ Blue's power against Hit.

Toyotarō is credited with having Vegeta reacquire SSJ Red, indicating that it was not part of Toriyama's original outline, suggesting that Vegeta otherwise would not have reacquired it, consequently implying that it had to be manually reacquired separately from normal base, SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3, and Enraged SSJ2. Therefore, I believe that Gokū trained to reacquire the form between the battle with Golden Freeza and the U6/U7 tournament (likely in the Room of Spirit and Time, but I feel like Vegeta would have been aware of it if this was the case), whereas Vegeta trained to reacquire the form in the Room of Spirit and Time specifically to combat Gokū Black.

Alternatively, it is possible that all of the prior forms (normal base, SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3, Enraged SSJ2, and SSJ Red) had to be reacquired separately, as Gokū and Vegeta don't ascend beyond SSJ1 during the U6/U7 tournament and we only see them use SSJ2, SSJ3, and Enraged SSJ2 after Trunks returns from the future. Therefore, I also consider the possibility that, in the Room of Spirit and Time, both Gokū and Vegeta reacquired their normal base and SSJ1 forms (as well as Gokū reacquiring SSJ Red), and that they reacquired SSJ2, SSJ3, and Enraged SSJ2 between the U6/U7 tournament and Trunks' return. Then, as I mentioned before, Vegeta at last reacquired SSJ Red in the Room of Spirit and Time after realizing he needed it to defeat Gokū Black. There's not enough information, however, for me to say with certainty whether they reacquired SSJ2, SSJ3, and Enraged SSJ2 before or after the U6/U7 tournament.

I believe that Gokū Black is also evidence of this. After ascending to SSJ Rosé, Black never again fights Trunks in his base form (or any other form below Rosé) as he had previously; I believe that this is because he inadvertently mastered Rosé and so reacquired a normal base form, thereby losing his SSJ Red powered base form and possibly also SSJ1, SSJ2, and SSJ3, leaving him only with a normal base form (which Trunks could easily dispatch) and SSJ Rosé.

[Miracles]

Obviously Vegeta achieved red through training.

This is what I like to believe. He was training with Whis so it's not like it came out of completely nowhere.

Yep. Blue is the Super Saiyan form of Super Saiyan god [Red].

[Lord Beerus]

Vegeta attaining SSJG is never explained in the manga. Vegeta just trained in the ROSAT for one day (one year), and then displayed he could transform into SSJG and stated he needed this form to fight Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black.

If he did have the form prior to his trip in the ROSAT, then he's absolute fucking moron for not using the form against Cabba or Hit in the Champa arc or against Goku Black in his first encounter with him. In both of those scenarios, he could have easily won those fights without wasting energy.

If he didn't attain the from to his training in the ROSAT, then that's just lazy writing. How in the hell did he become a Super Saiyan Blue, if he didn't have Super Saiyan God to begin with? Did he brute force his way to becoming a Super Saiyan Blue and then just spent one day (one year) training and attained Super Saiyan God after that? Because if that's the case, that undermines a hell of a lot of Battle Of Gods.

The anime at least had the throwaway line which states that Vegeta brute forced his way to becoming a Super Saiyan God while training with Goku. But that's the lesser of two evils in this scenario, because it's still just lazy writing and makes Super Saiyan God less of a mystical transformation and just a cheap and convenient power-up. You don't even need the ritual at all to achieve the form. You just need to train hard enough. Fuck that nonsense. Do something unique with the Godly transformations. Don't make them into cheap power-ups anybody can get their hands on. That's not saying that Super Saiyan God wasn't already easy and cheap form to attain that to begin with, but it could have at least been expanded on.

I hope Toyotaro will clear all this up in the future. Vegeta having SSJG in the manga is a no-win situation at this stage.

Vegeta showing Blue to Cabba would be pointless if it was unobtainable with ordinary methods. He would have punched Cabba hard, and after that he would have told him there's a level of power beyond SSJ he can attain just by holding hands with his best friends. The point of the scene is showing that, no matter what, you can get everything through hard work. Vegeta brute forcing his way towards Blue is so Dragon Ball and I love it.
Plus, the fact the ritual isn't abused makes it more special, and also justifies them not doing it on Future Trunks or Gohan. My headcanon is that Saiyans can only perform the ritual under dire situations where they have to save people, as in those moments their hearts are "righteous". Vegeta using SSG in the manga didn't make much sense. That was just some fanservice.

It's a double edge sword with the scenario of Vegeta bruting forcing himself to SSJG off-screen in just under a day (under one year in the ROSAT). I've actually commented extensively about this in the past, so I'll just rephrase what I said:

I don't mind that Vegeta brute forced his way to obtaining the power of Super Saiyan God. It actually fits thematically with his character very well. Vegeta brute forced his way to becoming a Super Saiyan in the Android arc, despite the previously established notion of what was required to become a Super Saiyan pretty much disqualified Vegeta from attaining the form back on Namek. And he's has always been about overworking himself so he can reach new levels of power. Sometimes it can have the effect he wants from it, but it can also have a negative effect on his progress. Which is something that Whis alludes to during Resurrection F when he talks to Goku and Vegeta about their flaws in battle and why Vegeta is always one step behind Goku.

Battle Of Gods provided the most extreme and unconventional manner with Vegeta pushing himself beyond his limit when the rage he felt from Bulma being slapped by Beerus led to his power exploding and spiking to whole new realm of strength where he pushed a Hakaishin and God ki user, to use a fraction of power just hold him of and comfortably defeat him. So there were certainly breadcrumbs left that Vegeta had an incredible amount of hidden strength, that with the right tutelage and previous mindset he has had of pushing himself beyond his limits while training, he could obtain, sustain and build upon a power that could rival the highest Gods in the Dragon Ball universe.

Of course, the major trade off with Vegeta brute forcing his way to the power of Super Saiyan God, especially in the fashion he did in the manga, is that we don't learn anything substantial about God ki. I just don't like how cavalierly Super handles the concept of God ki. You can't just introduce a concept like God ki, and have the main character(s) training being centred around it, and not do anything with the concept beyond stating that you have it prevent your ki from leaking out. You could do so much more with that. Perhaps an expansion of the Super Saiyan God transformation. Or a deeper look in the structure of Ki. Or a further insight into the mechanics of the Super Saiyan form(s). Just... something more than it already is.

[Meshack]

How in the hell did he become a Super Saiyan Blue, if he didn't have Super Saiyan God to begin with?

Why is this a problem? Did Toyotarõ mentioned any rule or let out a line where the forms are connected? Because from what I remember there's nothing of that sort. You are making out problems from your head-canon.

It’s been stated that Blue is just a powered up version of God like Super Saiyan 2 is to Super Saiyan.

[Meshack]

It's heavily implied he got it when he trained in the RoSaT for a day after losing against Black.

This is what he says " I finally realized that what I truly need to defeat you is this form(SSJG)." Chapter 22, page 13.

There's also the fact that he didn't use it at the U6 tournament, when he should have if he had it. It's very clear to me, the quote above supports it.

How in the hell did he become a Super Saiyan Blue, if he didn't have Super Saiyan God to begin with?

Why is this a problem? Did Toyotarõ mentioned any rule or let out a line where the forms are connected? Because from what I remember there's nothing of that sort. You are making out problems from your head-canon.

No if you read the manga carefully Goku states that SSG is the form before SSB implying you must obtain SSG before going SSB. Basically Vegeta always had the form and never used it. Thankful someone involved in this took the time to at least TRY and establish some consistent and coherent lore...

That’s not what Gokuh was saying. He was saying that God is before Blue like it’s Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, Super Saiyan God, and then Super Saiyan Blue. It’s been stated that Vegeta achieved Blue with his own power and without the power of others like Gokuh did. Vegeta basically skipped God and went straight to Blue. You don’t need God to become Blue. It’s implied that Vegeta achieved it in his time during the Room because he told Black that he needed the form to defeat him.