"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Hmm, I actually see the opposite, because if that were the case everyone would be talking about how they can "feel" Goku's power increase now. There's nothing like that other than seeing that they are more effective. Like I've been saying I think the design of this "form" is to make Goku's hits more precise and precision based. Instead I feel like some of the writers got confused and seemed to border on it making him more powerful too. The word from word reads like they are surprised his attacks are working in his present state when even SSB wasn't enough.

Like I said, if he were more powerful someone, God or mortal depending on the ki, would have said something about it

But most of the characters can't feel feel god ki, only pressure or heat in this case apparently. There's far more here than effective there was wide power gap between Goku and Jiren. It's the different between Super Saiyan 3 Goku vs. Beerus and Super Saiyan God Goku vs. Beerus.

The entire episode was written by one person, so what do you mean "writers got confused"?

Also, "if he were more powerful someone, God or mortal depending on the ki, would have said something about it", they did.

17: "But, somehow Goku instantly overcame that overwhelming different in power."

This outright tells out that Goku got stronger, especially since 17 can't sense ki as far as we know.

Piccolo: "It only grazed him, but Goku's attacks are now working! Even though he was no match as Blue before...."

Also keep in mind, Piccolo can't sense god ki, so he wouldn't never know where Blue was on its own, yet he recognized that Goku got a major jump.

Gohan: "Those movements... They're nothing like dad's usual movements. He's just not fast. I couldn't even sense him moving to attack at all."

Gohan acknowledged that Goku got faster, but there was more to it.

The show is spelling out that Goku got faster and stronger along with unnatural movements. Not sure how more clear they could make it other than someone yelling, Goku got stronger and faster. UI letting him move without thinking would suddenly make him hit and hurt Jiren when Blue Kaioken x20 barely made Jiren flinch.

[TheMikado]

Hmm, I actually see the opposite, because if that were the case everyone would be talking about how they can "feel" Goku's power increase now. There's nothing like that other than seeing that they are more effective. Like I've been saying I think the design of this "form" is to make Goku's hits more precise and precision based. Instead I feel like some of the writers got confused and seemed to border on it making him more powerful too. The word from word reads like they are surprised his attacks are working in his present state when even SSB wasn't enough.

Like I said, if he were more powerful someone, God or mortal depending on the ki, would have said something about it

But most of the characters can't feel feel god ki, only pressure or heat in this case apparently. There's far more here than effective there was wide power gap between Goku and Jiren. It's the different between Super Saiyan 3 Goku vs. Beerus and Super Saiyan God Goku vs. Beerus.

The entire episode was written by one person, so what do you mean "writers got confused"?

Also, "if he were more powerful someone, God or mortal depending on the ki, would have said something about it", they did.

17: "But, somehow Goku instantly overcame that overwhelming different in power."

This outright tells out that Goku got stronger, especially since 17 can't sense ki as far as we know.

Piccolo: "It only grazed him, but Goku's attacks are now working! Even though he was no match as Blue before...."

Also keep in mind, Piccolo can't sense god ki, so he wouldn't never know where Blue was on its own, yet he recognized that Goku got a major jump.

Gohan: "Those movements... They're nothing like dad's usual movements. He's just not fast. I couldn't even sense him moving to attack at all."

Gohan acknowledged that Goku got faster, but there was more to it.

The show is spelling out that Goku got faster and stronger along with unnatural movements. Not sure how more clear they could make it other than someone yelling, Goku got stronger and faster. UI letting him move without thinking would suddenly make him hit and hurt Jiren when Blue Kaioken x20 barely made Jiren flinch.

17: "But, somehow Goku instantly overcame that overwhelming different in power."

This outright tells out that Goku got stronger, especially since 17 can't sense ki as far as we know.

That's not what it's saying at all. It's like saying Gohan overcame Dyspo's speed by getting faster than he was. No one and nothing is specifically saying Goku is stronger (more powerful) than he was. I am not saying that isn't the case.

What I am saying is that it seems the written interpretation could have meant that Goku was able to overcome the raw power difference with skill and precision. The animators clearly show Goku as appearing more powerful. Combined with the "thinking without moving" and the ambiguity of what is being said it seems there could be confusion on exactly with this form is and what it's suppose to do. Unlike every other form where everyone goes bananas on the sheer raw power they sense coming off of them. Beerus mentions multiple times where Goku has increased in power and he can sense it in BoGs arc. They even sensed the spirit bomb. We aren't getting that here. That's my point. The "sensing" aspect is different than any form prior and we can't even say if it's god ki or not.

Just to be clear. Goku could very well be stronger in this form, it's just the way that it's written it seems to come just short of saying Goku is more powerful in this form than his SSBxKKx20 self.

[Zamasu55]

I have a feeling Chapter 29 will be "boring".
Damn, I want the recruitment arc to start as soon as possible. The build-up was better than the tournament itself in my opinion.

[Totamo]

I have a feeling Chapter 29 will be "boring".
Damn, I want the recruitment arc to start as soon as possible. The build-up was better than the tournament itself in my opinion.

I honestly think that whole arc was filler.

[Kanassa]

I have a feeling Chapter 29 will be "boring".
Damn, I want the recruitment arc to start as soon as possible. The build-up was better than the tournament itself in my opinion.

I honestly think that whole arc was filler.

What arc? The Recruitment wasn't an arc on it's own, it was a part of the TOP Arc that came after the Exhibition Matches

[Totamo]

I have a feeling Chapter 29 will be "boring".
Damn, I want the recruitment arc to start as soon as possible. The build-up was better than the tournament itself in my opinion.

I honestly think that whole arc was filler.

What arc? The Recruitment wasn't an arc on it's own, it was a part of the TOP Arc that came after the Exhibition Matches

20 episodes is not an arc now.

[Lord Beerus]

I honestly think that whole arc was filler.

What arc? The Recruitment wasn't an arc on it's own, it was a part of the TOP Arc that came after the Exhibition Matches

20 episodes is not an arc now.

Every episode from Episode 77 is under the umbrella of the Universal Survival arc, and there is no official distinction made by Toei that there were any sub arcs in between the Zen Exhibition Matches, the recruitment of the fighters, or the Tournament Of Power itself.

[Kanassa]

I honestly think that whole arc was filler.

What arc? The Recruitment wasn't an arc on it's own, it was a part of the TOP Arc that came after the Exhibition Matches

20 episodes is not an arc now.

An arc isn't defined by episode amount. Three connected episodes can be an arc, and twenty completely stand-alone episodes wouldn't be considered an arc.
The recruitment episodes are no an arc, they are part of an arc.

[Nero<>Akira]

i think Goku is getting a new form alongside UI. if not, then its just that UI removes any mental barriers Goku has that keeps him from using his full power hence the fighting without thinking. Plus, what he did to get UI unlocked his potential and and I'm sure let him gain even greater strength.

[Zamasu55]

I have a feeling Chapter 29 will be "boring".
Damn, I want the recruitment arc to start as soon as possible. The build-up was better than the tournament itself in my opinion.

I honestly think that whole arc was filler.

How on earth can that be filler.

[Noah]

Wasn't the whole "moving without thinking" shtick mentioned as far back as the ROF arc in the Super anime?

Yes, and after the Black arc too if I recall correctly (during the filler when Vegeta was training with Whis?), but he was talking about observing the arc as its own self-contained story.

It was referenced as far back as the BOG arc when Goku fought Beerus the first time

Actually it was referenced far back in RoF movie (2015).

Do you guys think the spirit bomb struggle will be kept in the manga? Seems crucial.

It was the trigger for Goku's "ultra instinct." However, Goku can even use "Hakai" in Full-power Blue. Don't know if it will be necessary.

So you think Goku would try to "Hakai" Jiren...?

[emperior]

I thought someone had said something about Goku's hits becoming more precise.

Piccolo said, exact quote from the episode:

"Even now, as he fights, he continues to evolve. With every block, he hits Jiren more quickly, sharply, and heavily".

Before then Piccolo and Gohan said this:

Piccolo: "It only grazed him, but Goku's attacks are now working! Even though he was no match as Blue before...."

Gohan: "Those movements... They're nothing like dad's usual movements. He's just not fast. I couldn't even sense him moving to attack at all."

Piccolo: "Yeah. It's the same when he dodges."

From 17:

"But, somehow Goku instantly overcame that overwhelming different in power."


Given all that, Goku got a giant power boost along with UI in which everyone noted that Goku's movements weren't natural. To me, this heavily hints that Goku got a new transformation that gave him access to UI and not that UI is the actual form since UI alone shouldn't have jacked Goku's strength like that and the characters themselves said that Goku is overall faster along with his uncanny movements.

Hmm, I actually see the opposite, because if that were the case everyone would be talking about how they can "feel" Goku's power increase now. There's nothing like that other than seeing that they are more effective. Like I've been saying I think the design of this "form" is to make Goku's hits more precise and precision based. Instead I feel like some of the writers got confused and seemed to border on it making him more powerful too. The word from word reads like they are surprised his attacks are working in his present state when even SSB wasn't enough.

Like I said, if he were more powerful someone, God or mortal depending on the ki, would have said something about it

The point is that Goku's movements are so unpredictable and accurate that he closed the gap between himself and Jiren. Also, more accurate blows are obviously more powerful. And more control = higher power level in Dragon Ball.

[HeroR]

The point is that Goku's movements are so unpredictable and accurate that he closed the gap between himself and Jiren. Also, more accurate blows are obviously more powerful. And more control = higher power level in Dragon Ball.

More control doesn't suddenly make your more powerful that a Kaioken x20 Blue. By that logic, Roshi should destroy most of the strong fighters from Z since he was by far more accurate and unpredictable being a train master compared to Raditz or Freeza's soldiers on Namek who fought like thugs.

[TheMikado]

The point is that Goku's movements are so unpredictable and accurate that he closed the gap between himself and Jiren. Also, more accurate blows are obviously more powerful. And more control = higher power level in Dragon Ball.

More control doesn't suddenly make your more powerful that a Kaioken x20 Blue. By that logic, Roshi should destroy most of the strong fighters from Z since he was by far more accurate and unpredictable being a train master compared to Raditz or Freeza's soldiers on Namek who fought like thugs.

Correct. This is the essence of the argument. HeroR believes there was a clear power increase based on the traditional Dragonball model where in order to be able to inflict any damage at all you would need to be of a certain power level.

My belief is that the form merely granted hyper increased precision in order for Goku to be able to hit Jiren at exactly the right moment, at the right place, with enough force.
An example would be hitting an opponent at a very specific and accurate place in their chest, in between heart beats, with enough force, with the intention of shocking and stopping their heart.
Or the same of their breathing with the intent of them losing breath. My belief is that this is what Ultra Instinct does for Goku, allows him to see the weaknesses in an opponent and exploit them rather than overpower them. HeroR believes it grants increased strength as well.

I will say that this certainly is how the anime seems to present it, as a strengh increase. However, given what I detailed on the continued themes particularly in the manga and what has been repeatedly emphasized I do not believe that the actual intent was to convey a "stronger" more powerful form at all. I think Toei got it wrong and didn't understand or care about the complexity and concept that Toriyama was building towards.

[Kanassa]

An example would be hitting an opponent at a very specific and accurate place in their chest, in between heart beats, with enough force, with the intention of shocking and stopping their heart.

You mean kind fo like what Hit does with the 'Heart Attack' thing?

[HeroR]

An example would be hitting an opponent at a very specific and accurate place in their chest, in between heart beats, with enough force, with the intention of shocking and stopping their heart.

You mean kind fo like what Hit does with the 'Heart Attack' thing?

Even then, you need a certain level power to do that. For example, do you think Hit could instantly kill Beerus and Champa with his attack given the power different?

[TheMikado]

An example would be hitting an opponent at a very specific and accurate place in their chest, in between heart beats, with enough force, with the intention of shocking and stopping their heart.

You mean kind fo like what Hit does with the 'Heart Attack' thing?

Even then, you need a certain level power to do that. For example, do you think Hit could instantly kill Beerus and Champa with his attack given the power different?

Yes, exactly that. I don't think its any coincidence that the "thinking without moving" technique should be able to counter the "time skip" technique no matter how short the length of time is.
I feel like Hit was also part of the training for Goku to achieve this technique and ironically still working on perfecting that technique would explain how Goku was able to revive himself after Hit assassinates him. All of this ties so well together that it all can't be coincidence.

As for taking out Beerus and Champa, I don't see why not. If Roshi were fast, skilled, and accurate enough I don't see why he couldn't take out Beerus or Champa that way too. It's about physiology, precision, and timing not power in this case. It's like asking if Goku is too powerful to drown.

[HeroR]

You mean kind fo like what Hit does with the 'Heart Attack' thing?

Even then, you need a certain level power to do that. For example, do you think Hit could instantly kill Beerus and Champa with his attack given the power different?

Yes, exactly that. I don't think its any coincidence that the "thinking without moving" technique should be able to counter the "time skip" technique no matter how short the length of time is.
I feel like Hit was also part of the training for Goku to achieve this technique and ironically still working on perfecting that technique would explain how Goku was able to revive himself after Hit assassinates him. All of this ties so well together that it all can't be coincidence.

As for taking out Beerus and Champa, I don't see why not. If Roshi were fast, skilled, and accurate enough I don't see why he couldn't take out Beerus or Champa that way too. It's about physiology, precision, and timing not power in this case. It's like asking if Goku is too powerful to drown.

It's called No-Limit Fallacy. That is like saying Beerus can Haki anyone.

[TheMikado]

Even then, you need a certain level power to do that. For example, do you think Hit could instantly kill Beerus and Champa with his attack given the power different?

Yes, exactly that. I don't think its any coincidence that the "thinking without moving" technique should be able to counter the "time skip" technique no matter how short the length of time is.
I feel like Hit was also part of the training for Goku to achieve this technique and ironically still working on perfecting that technique would explain how Goku was able to revive himself after Hit assassinates him. All of this ties so well together that it all can't be coincidence.

As for taking out Beerus and Champa, I don't see why not. If Roshi were fast, skilled, and accurate enough I don't see why he couldn't take out Beerus or Champa that way too. It's about physiology, precision, and timing not power in this case. It's like asking if Goku is too powerful to drown.

It's called No-Limit Fallacy. That is like saying Beerus can Haki anyone.

Ok, why can't he? We know he can't in the manga, but the anime seems to imply he could.

[Ikazvyr]

It's called No-Limit Fallacy. That is like saying Beerus can Haki anyone.

Ok, why can't he? We know he can't in the manga, but the anime seems to imply he could.

Because Haki is from One Piece, not Dragon Ball

Just kidding. Apparently, Hakai only works if the target cannot restore his being, like Zamasu's immortality preventing his body to disappear. We basically only saw Hakai being used in inanimate objects (if a planet can be described as inanimate even that we know planets are in constant movement, but I think you got that) and barely not on living (...excluding Mashirito) beings. Also, basically both times we really saw it in action were both on the same person: Zamasu, the present one (anime and manga) and his future counterpart (Merged, in manga). One more time if we count Mashirito, but we just increase it to three times. The technique does not contain much information to say if it works on everything AND everyone. We could say it works as a rule and point exceptions that still apply it as a rule