"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Kanassa]

Since there's a fair number of people complaining about Kale & Caulifla in the anime, what's the chances of Toyotaro portraying them in a way that attracts those people?

Considering how Toyo usually handles characters, they'll probably be very replaceable. At best I'm expecting maybe a dialogue quirk like calling Goku 'Old Man'.

[TKA]

Since there's a fair number of people complaining about Kale & Caulifla in the anime, what's the chances of Toyotaro portraying them in a way that attracts those people?

Considering how Toyo usually handles characters, they'll probably be very replaceable. At best I'm expecting maybe a dialogue quirk like calling Goku 'Old Man'.

Considering how Toyo usually handles characters, they'll probably be written more consistently and will be actual characters rather than caricatures defined by quirks. At worst I'm expecting the anime "characterization".

[The gr]

Considering how Toyo usually handles characters, they'll probably be written more consistently and will be actual characters rather than caricatures defined by quirks. At worst I'm expecting the anime "characterization".

I can't take comments like these seriously, can't people please stop bad mouthing the Anime when talking about the manga.

So are we're having 8 pages of behind the scenes material,wow these volume are getting better and better in term of content.

[OLKv3]

They're gonna be the same, except Toyo will either give them some training or will just not acknowledge how they got SS until they're fighting in the ToP. Like how he handled Black's backstory, where Black didn't reveal it until he was killing Gowasu right before the final battle.
We'll see it in a brief flashback instead of a full on episode, but we'll see. I do want them to get more screen time in the ToP buildup, I just don't see it happening with the strict schedule

[Miracles]

I think the changes will be improved art and maybe changed lines. It's very common for collected volumes to make these improvments.

Ah, so nothing drastic. Whelp at least we got the four page interview.

[TKA]

Considering how Toyo usually handles characters, they'll probably be written more consistently and will be actual characters rather than caricatures defined by quirks. At worst I'm expecting the anime "characterization".

I can't take comments like these seriously, can't people please stop bad mouthing the Anime when talking about the manga.

That isn't the intent. The anime depictions of these characters are the only ones available as the manga has yet to introduce them. If I am dissatisfied with them as they are now, it's because of the anime. Ergo, when I talk about them, it's impossible to do so without bringing up the anime. If trend holds, I expect to like the manga's rendition better, as I have with every character the manga has "rewritten".

"durr hurr anime sux" is a boring talking point and isn't the one I'm making, nor is it one I am remotely interested in. "The manga characterizes better than the anime" is the argument I put forward.

[The gr]

That isn't the intent. The anime depictions of these characters are the only ones available as the manga has yet to introduce them. If I am dissatisfied with them as they are now, it's because of the anime. Ergo, when I talk about them, it's impossible to do so without bringing up the anime. If trend holds, I expect to like the manga's rendition better, as I have with every character the manga has "rewritten".

"durr hurr anime sux" is a boring talking point and isn't the one I'm making, nor is it one I am remotely interested in. "The manga characterizes better than the anime" is the argument I put forward.

Oh sorry,I still wouldn't expect difference with kale and Caulifla, if you didn't like them in the Anime then you won't like them in the manga,I really don't expect major difference with these character unless Toyo suprised us like with vermoud

[HeroR]

Oh sorry,I still wouldn't expect difference with kale and Caulifla, if you didn't like them in the Anime then you won't like them in the manga,I really don't expect major difference with these character unless Toyo suprised us like with vermoud

I have to agree. For the most part, the manga personalities of characters tend to be the same as the anime, except 'drier'. It's hard to described, but look at manga Hit compared to anime Hit or manga Toppo to anime Toppo. At their core, they're pretty much the same, but their subtile differences.

For the most part, I find Toyo's versions of the characters inferior to anime, especially the antagonists who Toyo can't seem to write. Although his rendering of the Gods of Destruction have been very good.

For the most part, I think we should just wait and see instead of assuming Toyo's rendering of the characters will be better or worse than the anime, especially since characterizations can be a very subjective subject. I personally think some character maybe flush out more in the manga, while others are not. For example, who would have guess when this arc started that Goku would be far more of a selfish asshole in the anime, while Goku in the manga is more innocent and naive.

[The gr]

I have to agree. For the most part, the manga personalities of characters tend to be the same as the anime, except 'drier'. It's hard to described, but look at manga Hit compared to anime Hit or manga Toppo to anime Toppo. At their core, they're pretty much the same, but their subtile differences.

For the most part, I find Toyo's versions of the characters inferior to anime, especially the antagonists who Toyo can't seem to write. Although his rendering of the Gods of Destruction have been very good.

For the most part, I think we should just wait and see instead of assuming Toyo's rendering of the characters will be better or worse than the anime, especially since characterizations can be a very subjective subject. I personally think some character maybe flush out more in the manga, while others are not. For example, who would have guess when this arc started that Goku would be far more of a selfish asshole in the anime, while Goku in the manga is more innocent and naive.

Flush out .I personally never really found hit interesting in u6 anime or manga,he only got more interesting in the filler and especially in the Top so maybe hit will be more interesting in the manga rendition of top.

I really agree with toyo not writing the antagonist that well,he just make them weak and kinda lame,i'm thinking jiren already broke the norm evem then that won't excuse how weak the other antagonist were but you are rigth he is good using the god of destruction

Goku is naive in the anime and not an asshole because the show keep reminding us goku is not reason why the universe are destroyed.

[TheMikado]

That isn't the intent. The anime depictions of these characters are the only ones available as the manga has yet to introduce them. If I am dissatisfied with them as they are now, it's because of the anime. Ergo, when I talk about them, it's impossible to do so without bringing up the anime. If trend holds, I expect to like the manga's rendition better, as I have with every character the manga has "rewritten".

"durr hurr anime sux" is a boring talking point and isn't the one I'm making, nor is it one I am remotely interested in. "The manga characterizes better than the anime" is the argument I put forward.

Oh sorry,I still wouldn't expect difference with kale and Caulifla, if you didn't like them in the Anime then you won't like them in the manga,I really don't expect major difference with these character unless Toyo suprised us like with vermoud

Wait what? Toyo has been consistently showing different characterization.

Here's what I expect from the manga given it's track record.

1) I expect Caulifa to be more like a vocal 18 in characterization. What this means is she takes charge and no nonsense. I expect her to overshadow Cabba not just in power, but also leadership.
She will likely be shown through her leadership skills WHY she is the leader of a gang because her leadership skills will be apparent when going into the tournament. I expect her to be cocky, similar to Vegeta. Vegeta is my favorite character so her having more of his personality will be a huge bonus. Further I expect her to appear a bit older and more malicious. Even the current drawings by Toyo make her appearance to be more in the mid/late teens similar to 18's style.

2) I think I'm going to hate Kale regardless and while I believe she will have a bit more substance she will ultimately be a flat character.

Anyway really looking forward to Caulifa as imagined by Toyo because right now I hate her character the most out of all the characters we've had so far, but I could easily see her becoming my favorite if she is more along the lines of Vegeta in attitude, execution, and leadership qualities. I can even forgive the BS power-ups a bit more if she actually seems like a competent leader in the ToP. Also please remember this. I'm calling it now so no one can say I'm biased to the manga. If it delivers on what I'm looking for I'll love it, if it doesn't I'll hate it. Simple as that.

[HeroR]

Flush out .I personally never really found hit interesting in u6 anime or manga,he only got more interesting in the filler and especially in the Top so maybe hit will be more interesting in the manga rendition of top.

I really agree with toyo not writing the antagonist that well,he just make them weak and kinda lame,i'm thinking jiren already broke the norm evem then that won't excuse how weak the other antagonist were but you are rigth he is good using the god of destruction

Goku is naive in the anime and not an asshole because the show keep reminding us goku is not reason why the universe are destroyed.

Whether you find Hit personally interesting or not, he is a flush out and developed character. His character developed is just subtle.

Toyo's antagonists being weak isn't really the primary problem. The problem is that all his antagonists fill in the standard Dragon Ball villain guides outside of Beerus. Hit in the manga had a standard 'villain' breakdown when he starts to lose his edge, like how he had that shock/horror expression when he learned Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta only had 10% of his power. I don't need to explained Black and Zamasu since that has been discuss in length. Jiren is interesting since the anime purposely seem to treat Jiren as a force of nature than a person. We have to wait and see how Jiren is presented, but I can't imagine Jiren being that different in the manga since he's very, very dry.

The show didn't really keep reminding us and even then, the gods still hate his guts for the most part. Goku is more of an asshole given how he got to Zen'o and his laid-back attitude about other universes being erased and how Beerus is annoyed how Goku isn't emoting like he 'should'. Manga Goku went to Zen'o thinking he wouldn't do anything because Zen'o is his friend and he finds him cute. Anime Goku actually agreed with Beerus that Zen'o could be dangerous since he saw him erased a timeline, but then say it would be fine. That and the whole Beerus was ready to Haki him and how he basically played chicken.

[Meshack]

Hit didn’t have a “standard villain breakdown.” He was surprised by the fact his Tokitobashi could no longer work on Gokuh in Super Saiyan God. I believe he was also surprised that Gokuh’s power continued to increase and him transforming into Blue was able to cancel his Tokitobashi. A standard villain breakdown would be Hit becoming frustrated as the battle continued because his Tokitobashi wouldn’t work.

About the power, Toyotarou doesn’t portray these characters to be weak or at least weaker than the anime counterpart. It’s clearly shown by Toyotarou that God and Blue are on a different level than Gokuh’s lower forms as seen in the battle with Toppo. Hit was able to dodge Gokuh’s Kamehameha even after saying he could use Tokitobashi only one time. The anime’s power scaling is all over the place and it’s hard to tell if Gokuh was actually trying or not against Kale while she was berserk. Trunks being able to keep up with Black and Potara Zamasu? Gimme a break

[HeroR]

Hit didn’t have a “standard villain breakdown.” He was surprised by the fact his Tokitobashi could no longer work on Gokuh in Super Saiyan God. I believe he was also surprised that Gokuh’s power continued to increase and him transforming into Blue was able to cancel his Tokitobashi. A standard villain breakdown would be Hit becoming frustrated as the battle continued because his Tokitobashi wouldn’t work.

About the power, Toyotarou doesn’t portray these characters to be weak or at least weaker than the anime counterpart. It’s clearly shown by Toyotarou that God and Blue are on a different level than Gokuh’s lower forms as seen in the battle with Toppo. Hit was able to dodge Gokuh’s Kamehameha even after saying he could use Tokitobashi only one time. The anime’s power scaling is all over the place and it’s hard to tell if Gokuh was actually trying or not against Kale while she was berserk. Trunks being able to keep up with Black and Potara Zamasu? Gimme a break

Hit clearly got frustrated near the end, especially when he pushed himself to used his full power.

Honestly, the villains just look and feel weak instead of making the god forms look strong. You have to build up the villains before you bring them down, that is how you make a form look powerful. Hit beating up a tired Vegeta with only 10% of his full power made Hit's victory over Vegeta looked laughably and undermined him as a worthy opponent. Super Saiyan 1/2 Black being about even with Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta did him no favors, especially since Black in his base form handled Super Saiyan 2 Trunk who was even with Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Also, the manga counterparts are weaker since Hit in the manga fall behind Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku, while Hit in the anime improved and hung with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan/Kaioken x10 Goku. We also had Black who improved to the point of being able to hold off Goku and Vegeta with his clones, while manga Black got completely trashed by Vegeta.

Trunks only kept up with Black and Zamasu in Episode 57 before Rage. In Episode 61, Black and Zamasu kicked his ass. The anime's scaling isn't as 'all over the place' as many believed.

[LightBing]

A character being boring to you doesn't mean it's badly written, these are two different things.
I'm specifically talking about Goku Black one of the best written characters by Toyotarõ. If you think the character is pathetic then the goal was met.

His goal is pathetic, he's a racist and suffers from both inferiority and superiority complex. Gowasu tells him that mortals are able to do good and what does Zamasu do? Steal the body of the best example of that, blindly rejecting Gowasu's perspective. All while still spouting the mortals are inferior crap, failing to see the hypocrisy of bloody using a mortal's body to accomplish his plan!
We are supposed to dislike him and pity him.

I understand finding the character boring, for all my complementing of Goku Black in the manga I still prefer the anime version. There he's compelling and charismatic supported by superb acting from Mrs.Nozawa. Plus I totally buy mixing the characteristic of Goku in.

Toyotarõ needed to give a little flair to the character, otherwise he offered a very interesting take on the character. I'm happy we have both versions to appreciate.

[HeroR]

A character being boring to you doesn't mean it's badly written, these are two different things.
I'm specifically talking about Goku Black one of the best written characters by Toyotarõ. If you think the character is pathetic then the goal was met.

His goal is pathetic, he's a racist and suffers from both inferiority and superiority complex. Gowasu tells him that mortals are able to do good and what does Zamasu do? Steal the body of the best example of that, blindly rejecting Gowasu's perspective. All while still spouting the mortals are inferior crap, failing to see the hypocrisy of bloody using a mortal's body to accomplish his plan!
We are supposed to dislike him and pity him.

I understand finding the character boring, for all my complementing of Goku Black in the manga I still prefer the anime version. There he's compelling and charismatic supported by superb acting from Mrs.Nozawa. Plus I totally buy mixing the characteristic of Goku in.

Toyotarõ needed to give a little flair to the character, otherwise he offered a very interesting take on the character. I'm happy we have both versions to appreciate.

Here's the thing. You make a villain pathetic, but still feel like a real treat, which Toyo didn't really do with Black in my opinion.

A good example, Imo, is Shigaraki from MHA. He's an utterly pathetic manchild with petty goals, a short-temper, and scratched at his neck whenever things don't go his way, which is very often. However, he is still extremely dangerous and when he does get serious, he can easily kill even a powerful hero. Black not only comes off as a whining machild playing god, but he never felt threatening outside of his first appearance. The moment Goku and Vegeta goes into the future, things goes downhill for Black as a character.

But I think the thing that really turns me off from manga Black is how he has the same 'quirk' as almost every villain in Dragon Ball. Namely, cocky and boastful when ahead, whining and have a breakdown when he isn't. It's such a thing in Dragon Ball that it's extremely cliche. One of the biggest charming things about anime Black was that even when he was behind, he didn't fall apart. He kept calm and adaptive to what was going on. This is such a small thing, but it's a breath of fresh air for Dragon Ball. We may not agree how Black adaptive was done well, but it was something different from the standard fare of Dragon Ball villains. Although we can say Hit did the same thing, but Hit wasn't a 'villain' so I don't see it as the same. Hit also didn't have Black's ego, which seemed primed for him to have a breakdown when things go wrong.

On your final point, I don't think we're supposed to pity manga Black. If that was Toyo's goal, he didn't succeed at it. The anime did a better job with the 'pity' thing with Merged Zamasu (who has Black within him) showing that he truly does believe he's doing the right thing and one of the reasons he took Goku's body was to always carry the mistake of the gods within him. For the lack of better words, the anime made Zamasu Lucifer from Paradise Lost.

Now before this turns into an anime vs. the manga, I will say that I wouldn't care for Toyo's Black even if the anime version didn't exist for the reasons I named. The whole, pathetic villain who is extremely dangerous could have been done better. Honestly, Xicor and West Supreme Kai from AF comes off as better pathetic, pity villains over Black and Zamasu.

[Meshack]

Hit didn’t have a “standard villain breakdown.” He was surprised by the fact his Tokitobashi could no longer work on Gokuh in Super Saiyan God. I believe he was also surprised that Gokuh’s power continued to increase and him transforming into Blue was able to cancel his Tokitobashi. A standard villain breakdown would be Hit becoming frustrated as the battle continued because his Tokitobashi wouldn’t work.

About the power, Toyotarou doesn’t portray these characters to be weak or at least weaker than the anime counterpart. It’s clearly shown by Toyotarou that God and Blue are on a different level than Gokuh’s lower forms as seen in the battle with Toppo. Hit was able to dodge Gokuh’s Kamehameha even after saying he could use Tokitobashi only one time. The anime’s power scaling is all over the place and it’s hard to tell if Gokuh was actually trying or not against Kale while she was berserk. Trunks being able to keep up with Black and Potara Zamasu? Gimme a break

Hit clearly got frustrated near the end, especially when he pushed himself to used his full power.

Honestly, the villains just look and feel weak instead of making the god forms look strong. You have to build up the villains before you bring them down, that is how you make a form look powerful. Hit beating up a tired Vegeta with only 10% of his full power made Hit's victory over Vegeta looked laughably and undermined him as a worthy opponent. Super Saiyan 1/2 Black being about even with Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta did him no favors, especially since Black in his base form handled Super Saiyan 2 Trunk who was even with Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Also, the manga counterparts are weaker since Hit in the manga fall behind Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku, while Hit in the anime improved and hung with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan/Kaioken x10 Goku. We also had Black who improved to the point of being able to hold off Goku and Vegeta with his clones, while manga Black got completely trashed by Vegeta.

Trunks only kept up with Black and Zamasu in Episode 57 before Rage. In Episode 61, Black and Zamasu kicked his ass. The anime's scaling isn't as 'all over the place' as many believed.

Hit is not a villain. He just opposes our heroes but not will evil intent. It’s clear in both the manga and anime that Hit was unable to use his full power because of the rules.

You don’t find out about Vegeta’s power lose until Gokuh transforms so it doesn’t lose the intensity (I guess) in Chapter 12. In the anime and manga, Gokuh became 10 times atronger (I think) than Vegeta. Would you rather have a huge stamina drain because of an insane powerful form that is stated in both the manga and anime that Blue drains their stamina bad, or.... would you have Gokuh strain his body to the point that he should have died just to make Gokuh stronger and bring back Kaiohken for no good reason?

[emperior]

We should be getting the interview between Toriyama and Toyotaro tomorrow. Can't wait to read *laughs* many times
Seriously though, I hope they will reveal some interesting behind the scenes and I'm curious to see what Toriyama will have to say about Super. I really hope there will be some interesting reveal, I'm crossing my fingers for a hint about Super going after EoZ. I want it so much because that would open up so many possibilities, and we would finally get some real tension.

[Miracles]

Hit wasn't weak in the manga nor did he appear weak. Hit was only shocked to hear that His time skip can't work on people stronger than him.
THEN he "improved [powered up]" and didn't lose to Goku. He had the same reaction in the anime when Goku was breaking his Time skip with Kaioken.
The result ended he same for Hit in the anime and manga, with a win. Neither was Black or Zamasu weak in the manga.
It's just that Goku and Vegeta are heavily more competent in the comic than their anime counterparts.

We should be getting the interview between Toriyama and Toyotaro tomorrow. Can't wait to read *laughs* many times .

That's awesome!

[Helios518]

Hit wasn't weak in the manga nor did he appear weak. Hit was only shocked to hear that His time skip can't work on people stronger than him.
THEN he "improved [powered up]" and didn't lose to Goku. He had the same reaction in the anime when Goku was breaking his Time skip with Kaioken.
The result ended he same for Hit in the anime and manga, with a win. Neither was Black or Zamasu weak in the manga.
It's just that Goku and Vegeta are heavily more competent in the comic than their anime counterparts.

Sure, Manga Hit may not be weak because he's god tier but put him in the same scenario as Anime Hit in the tournament, and he would've straight up lost against Vegeta let alone force Goku into SSJBKKx10.

[mfwlegend3]

I'm looking forward to this Toriyama and Toyotaro interview. Hopefully Toriyama will provide more insight on how much he contributed to the manga's Future Trunks arc.