Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 15; Still Unreleased

[Cure Dragon 255]

I thought it was penguintruth who did all that. So dissapointed in Sean.

[Ringworm128]

Are you sure? I recall it being accurate despite a few changes.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure...
Take a look:
[spoiler]Funimation Z
Ox-King: "And... you're saying that Goku had to, I mean, that he's uh..."
Roshi: "Yep. He's, uh, dead."
Ox-King: "Uh oh, Chi-Chi! Uh, get the smelling salts, Krillin."
Funimation Kai
Ox-King: "Uh... so you're saying that Goku had to, I mean, that he's..."
Roshi: "He's uh... kinda dead."
Ox-King: "Ah! Chi-Chi! Oh, get the smelling salts, Krillin!"
Steve Simmons' Kai subtitles
Ox-King: "W-what happened to G-G-Goku?!"
Roshi: "H-He's dead."
Ox-King: "Chichi! Buck up!"
-
Funimation Z
Bulma: "Hey! Guys, let's go! I got this thing working. Uh, guys? You... listen! I've been up all night, and I'm a little bit irritable right now. So, you do not want to get on my bad side this morning. Now then, let's try this again. Let's go guys!"
Roshi: "Uhh... hop where?" (I realise this line doesn't make sense. What Bulma says just before this is one of the lines Funimation slightly rewrote because the Ocean script assumed the scene was cut down. Bulma's line in the Ocean version was: "Hey guys, hop to, I got this thing working." Funnily enough the Funi Kai line seems to be more similar to Ocean Z than Funi Z)
Funimation Kai
Bulma: "Hey Guys! Hop to, I think I got it working! Listen! I've been up all night, and I'm a little bit irritable right now. You do not want to get on my bad side this morning! Now then, let's try this again. Hop to, guys!"
Roshi: "Uhh... hop where?"
Steve Simmons' Kai subtitles
Bulma: "Hey, I'm finally done! You've got some nerve, kicking back and sleeping at a time like this! You there, Old Man Turtle, stand up."
Roshi: "O-Old Man Turtle?"
-
Funimation Z
Krillin: "Hey, check mine out! I'd love to know what my Power Level is!"
Bulma: "Alright, you got it... 206. Not bad."
Krillin: "Oh, wow! Hear that, Master Roshi? My Power Level's higher than yours!"
Funimation Kai
Krillin: "OK, OK. Come on, my turn! What's my number, Bulma?"
Bulma: "How about that? 206."
Krillin: "Hey! I'm stronger than you! The student has surpassed the master!"
Steve Simmons' Kai subtitles
Krillin: "B-Bulma-san, how high am I?"
Bulma: "Amazing! It says 206."
Krillin: "I really have surpassed you, Muten Roshi-sama!"
-
Funimation Z
Bulma: "I'm beginning to think you're lost! We walked all the way down here, and now there's nowhere left for us to go! It's a dead end! Wait stop!"
Funimation Kai
Bulma: "Hey! If you've brought me all the way out here just to try something funny, you should know I've been taking Judo since I was 9 years old. Get me? Don't go! It was a joke!"
Steve Simmons' Kai subtitles
Bulma: "You haven't brought me to this godforsaken place in order to do something pervy with me, right? H-Hey!"[/spoiler]

If you want everything to flow and sound natural some tweaks and changes are needed. What works in Japanese isn't always going to work 100% in English without some changes.

[Robo4900]

If you want everything to flow and sound natural some tweaks and changes are needed. What works in Japanese isn't always going to work 100% in English without some changes.

Yes, and I am fully in support of that idea.
The problem is, if you look at Kai's dialogue, at least half the time, the lines are just taken from the Funimation Z dub, and reworded slightly to flow better.

Funimation's Z dub wasn't translated from Japanese; it was adapted from an Engrishy re-translation of the Mexican dub's scripts, and heavily altered to fit Barry Watson's "Vision" of what Dragon Ball Z should be.

The end result is that not only is everything reworded and tweaked, but meanings are changed, extra fluff is added, and in general, the intent of the dialogue is often muddied. And even when the dialogue isn't taken from the Z dub, it's clearly had some heavy and unnecessary liberties taken with it(What's with Bulma's remark about the "Judo classes"? And the "It was just a joke" completely changes the meaning of her line there...).
Kai isn't an outright bad translation, but I wouldn't call it a good one.

[SX10]

I thought it was penguintruth who did all that. So dissapointed in Sean.

I remember that penguintruth was basically voicing his opinion in an unsavoury way and eventually Sean offered to meet him in person to "discuss" it haha! It was crazy.

Anyway, just threw that out there.

Interesting facts about the Kai translation here, I thought the whole dub's selling point was accuracy in their translations. Perhaps some things just don't work as straight translations.

[Robo4900]

Interesting facts about the Kai translation here, I thought the whole dub's selling point was accuracy in there translations. Perhaps some things just don't work as straight translations.

Nah, it's just Funimation being Funimation.

If you look at their history, it's basically their MO to claim they're being more accurate, when actually they're using the same old scripts and such as before, with some minor alterations to make them flow better.
Usually, the only real change is better acting, and some of the most abhorent dub changes being gutted.

It's certainly an improvement, but better doesn't mean good.

If you look at Steve Simmons' Kai subtitles, you'll see it flows pretty nicely. Naturally, it'd need some adjusting to fit mouth flaps, and to work better as spoken dialogue instead of read subtitles, but it's not like this stuff doesn't work in English... I think it's just that Funimation don't want to spend the money and time on proper translations.

I would guess -- and I would like to emphasise that this is simply a guess based on observations I've made about their methods over the years! -- that Funimation got some cheap, quick, literal, heavily Engrishy Japanese to English translations for Kai(Quite possibly from Toei themselves), then treated it like the old Spanish translations; use it as a starting point from which to write a script in the Funimation "Style". Of course, with their Z dub already existing, they would have those already-adapted scripts to pull from for a lot of the dialogue, but this way they would have a reference point from which to cut some of the extra fluff they added back in the day.

Ultimately, I don't know how or why Funimation went with such a weird route with their Kai scripting. But however and whyever they went this route, the end result is the same -- Funimation's Kai dub is not especially accurate. For a Funimation Dragon Ball dub, yeah, it's a big step in the right direction. But it's not a good translation.

[Ringworm128]

To be honest the Z dub wasn't as inaccurate as everybody says except for the Freeza arc. If you took out "hope of the universe" and "sword of injustice" you would mostly get watered down versions of what was originally said in the Japanese version.

[Robo4900]

I don't even know where to begin with this.

Someone else take over please, I don't think I have the time or patience to explain how wrong that post is.

[Ringworm128]

Yes I know there were waaay more examples. But I have spent more time comparing the dialogue for Z than I should admit and I noticed a good chunk of the Z dub was somewhat accurate just changed and watered down to sound more "hip' and "easy".

[Robo4900]

Are you serious?

The thing is, what you say actually works against it.
The few lines of dialogue that were actually reasonably accurate were watered-down, and made more "Punchy" to fit Barry Watson's views on what Dragon Ball Z fans want. On one hand, sure, the original meaning is still technically there, but with the other crap they layer on top of it, the original intent is lost, and the meaning is watered down and muddied.

Anyway, I think we're getting off track here.
This is supposed to be about Ocean Kai, but now we're discussing Funimation Z...

[SX10]

My original reply didn't show Here it is again:

What is very interesting here now, is that the Ocean dub has a unique selling point that no one is seemingly allowed to know about.

Tockar said the dub was 'whimsical' & 'darker' but wasn't allowed to discuss in-depth what differentiates it from Funi's dub. Beach said that he didn't feel it was darker in tone, but did say that he felt it was 'as accurate' as Funi's dub claims to be (with the exception of the odd out-of-place pun). Beach also stated that hadn't signed an NDA, but opted out of discussing the differences so as to not ruin surprises.

With the exception of the new musical score/ cast/ etc. There is something about this dub which makes it unique.

My guess? Well, when they take care to cast actors who can capture the spirit of the Japanese characters and focus on correct pronouncoation, they surely are working from fresh translations of the source material, carried out in-house.

Not saying it will be 100% accurate if true either btw. I just love this mystery.

[Super Sayian Prime]

I'm of the opinion that they will probably wind up recycling Funimation's scripts. This dub has always lagged behind the Texas one in production and the shared video makes me think shared scripts, like end of Z.

[SX10]

I'm of the opinion that they will probably wind up recycling Funimation's scripts. This dub has always lagged behind the Texas one in production and the shared video makes me think shared scripts, like end of Z.

Time will tell. They can't be too far off from each other.

This isn't aimed at yourself Super Saiyan Prime, but I do see a lot of people really crucify Ocean Group for AB Groupe's mistakes & I honestly don't get it. AB Groupe were in charge of the decisions made and they obviously rushed all of it. Even the Buu arc was rushed, despite improvements.

When you hear what Ocean Group can do if given the time and proper prep work, I don't get why some have an instant uneasy feeling about Kai, given what we know about it.

I love the Ocean Group actors and even I find the Westwood dub years hard to handle. But you can tell it's an issue with direction, which is a direct response to pressure to crank them out as fast as possible.

It should be only logical that DB Kai's production won't be anything like the Westwood dub years. They worked on it for a fair few years & even had call backs to re-record certain lines.

Plus, to my knowledge, Ocean do have services available regarding script translations and they surely knew that if you're going to have a second English dub, it had better stand out.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

[

Tockar said the dub was 'whimsical' & 'darker' but wasn't allowed to discuss in-depth what differentiates it from Funi's dub. Beach said that he didn't feel it was darker in tone, but did say that he felt it was 'as accurate' as Funi's dub claims to be (with the exception of the odd out-of-place pun). Beach also stated that hadn't signed an NDA, but opted out of discussing the differences so as to not ruin surprises.

With the exception of the new musical score/ cast/ etc. There is something about this dub which makes it unique.

If I had to guess I'd say Tockar was referring to the replacement score. We know its going to be Keenlyside and Mitchell again. Their score for the westwood dub was whimsical, and maybe not dark but somewhat ominous during the serious scenes. I could see the score for this dub being familiar but distinctive.

As for the scripts I also expect them to be similar to Funimation's scripts but with slight deviations, especially if they are sourced from new translations.

[SX10]

That does sound possible and I can't wait to hear it! i hope it's not too overly heroic and on the nose though.

[TheGreatness25]

Are you sure? I recall it being accurate despite a few changes.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure...
Take a look:
[spoiler]Funimation Z
Ox-King: "And... you're saying that Goku had to, I mean, that he's uh..."
Roshi: "Yep. He's, uh, dead."
Ox-King: "Uh oh, Chi-Chi! Uh, get the smelling salts, Krillin."
Funimation Kai
Ox-King: "Uh... so you're saying that Goku had to, I mean, that he's..."
Roshi: "He's uh... kinda dead."
Ox-King: "Ah! Chi-Chi! Oh, get the smelling salts, Krillin!"
Steve Simmons' Kai subtitles
Ox-King: "W-what happened to G-G-Goku?!"
Roshi: "H-He's dead."
Ox-King: "Chichi! Buck up!"
-
Funimation Z
Bulma: "Hey! Guys, let's go! I got this thing working. Uh, guys? You... listen! I've been up all night, and I'm a little bit irritable right now. So, you do not want to get on my bad side this morning. Now then, let's try this again. Let's go guys!"
Roshi: "Uhh... hop where?" (I realise this line doesn't make sense. What Bulma says just before this is one of the lines Funimation slightly rewrote because the Ocean script assumed the scene was cut down. Bulma's line in the Ocean version was: "Hey guys, hop to, I got this thing working." Funnily enough the Funi Kai line seems to be more similar to Ocean Z than Funi Z)
Funimation Kai
Bulma: "Hey Guys! Hop to, I think I got it working! Listen! I've been up all night, and I'm a little bit irritable right now. You do not want to get on my bad side this morning! Now then, let's try this again. Hop to, guys!"
Roshi: "Uhh... hop where?"
Steve Simmons' Kai subtitles
Bulma: "Hey, I'm finally done! You've got some nerve, kicking back and sleeping at a time like this! You there, Old Man Turtle, stand up."
Roshi: "O-Old Man Turtle?"
-
Funimation Z
Krillin: "Hey, check mine out! I'd love to know what my Power Level is!"
Bulma: "Alright, you got it... 206. Not bad."
Krillin: "Oh, wow! Hear that, Master Roshi? My Power Level's higher than yours!"
Funimation Kai
Krillin: "OK, OK. Come on, my turn! What's my number, Bulma?"
Bulma: "How about that? 206."
Krillin: "Hey! I'm stronger than you! The student has surpassed the master!"
Steve Simmons' Kai subtitles
Krillin: "B-Bulma-san, how high am I?"
Bulma: "Amazing! It says 206."
Krillin: "I really have surpassed you, Muten Roshi-sama!"
-
Funimation Z
Bulma: "I'm beginning to think you're lost! We walked all the way down here, and now there's nowhere left for us to go! It's a dead end! Wait stop!"
Funimation Kai
Bulma: "Hey! If you've brought me all the way out here just to try something funny, you should know I've been taking Judo since I was 9 years old. Get me? Don't go! It was a joke!"
Steve Simmons' Kai subtitles
Bulma: "You haven't brought me to this godforsaken place in order to do something pervy with me, right? H-Hey!"[/spoiler]

I mean that was always my opinion, actually. When I watched Kai (not too much of it), I felt like the lines were similar to the Z dub. Not 100% the same, obviously, but it's not like they were radically different from the Z dub. Then again, I was always under the opinion that while there were a lot of differences, I felt like the fans exaggerated just how much was changed. I think it was more about the delivery and cheesiness. Meanwhile, Kai changed the cheesiness and now it's heralded by fans.

[Dbzfan94]

[
Funimation's Kai isn't actually that accurate.

All of these points you made are wrong on two levels. One, you're really over exaggerating how bad the Z dub is and how much they got wrong. They water it down sometimes as well as additional dialogue where there's silence, but other than that it's not too bad. (As if your precious Ocean dub's scripts was better by any sense, movies aside.) Two, you're not taking lip flaps into consideration. What may only be 3 words in Japanese could translate into something much longer in English, so they have to fit the line to properly have the mouth flap match it.

[8000 Saiyan]

[
Funimation's Kai isn't actually that accurate.

All of these points you made are wrong on two levels. One, you're really over exaggerating how bad the Z dub is and how much they got wrong. They water it down sometimes as well as additional dialogue where there's silence, but other than that it's not too bad. (As if your precious Ocean dub's scripts was better by any sense, movies aside.) Two, you're not taking lip flaps into consideration. What may only be 3 words in Japanese could translate into something much longer in English, so they have to fit the line to properly have the mouth flap match it.

Oh, and you think Robo defends the scripts? As I recall, he did say that the Ocean dub had poor dialogue.

[Dbzfan94]

[
Funimation's Kai isn't actually that accurate.

All of these points you made are wrong on two levels. One, you're really over exaggerating how bad the Z dub is and how much they got wrong. They water it down sometimes as well as additional dialogue where there's silence, but other than that it's not too bad. (As if your precious Ocean dub's scripts was better by any sense, movies aside.) Two, you're not taking lip flaps into consideration. What may only be 3 words in Japanese could translate into something much longer in English, so they have to fit the line to properly have the mouth flap match it.

Oh, and you think Robo defends the scripts? As I recall, he did say that the Ocean dub had poor dialogue.

Well he's also blatantly admitted his bias for the Ocean dub too.

[8000 Saiyan]

All of these points you made are wrong on two levels. One, you're really over exaggerating how bad the Z dub is and how much they got wrong. They water it down sometimes as well as additional dialogue where there's silence, but other than that it's not too bad. (As if your precious Ocean dub's scripts was better by any sense, movies aside.) Two, you're not taking lip flaps into consideration. What may only be 3 words in Japanese could translate into something much longer in English, so they have to fit the line to properly have the mouth flap match it.

Oh, and you think Robo defends the scripts? As I recall, he did say that the Ocean dub had poor dialogue.

Well he's also blatantly admitted his bias for the Ocean dub too.

Aren't you another one of those guys who has a bias for the Funimation dub?

[Dbzfan94]

Oh, and you think Robo defends the scripts? As I recall, he did say that the Ocean dub had poor dialogue.

Well he's also blatantly admitted his bias for the Ocean dub too.

Aren't you another one of those guys who has a bias for the Funimation dub?

If you mean Kai plus some of the later Z dub stuff then yeah, but that's besides the point. He pointed out multiple examples where the dialogue was more or less the same in Z to Kai but much longer than the Japanese while still retaining the meaning. Which goes back to what I said about lip flaps.