Why are certain trained humans so very weak in DBZ?

[SonEric84]

If they were still using numbered power levels later on in the series, do you really think Videl would only be a 9?

[Teclo]

Humpski and Shenron: the "how do I shot ki?" thing is a joke based on a 4chan catchphrase "how do I shot web?" It's one of many, many in-jokes. Presumably it originated from a typo, just like another one - "loli haet pizza" which was meant to be "lol i hate pizza". Though it's nice to see people sticking up for each other.

Back on topic, I agree with what people have been saying. I guess my problem - and it's admittedly mainly from being a Videl fanboy - is that she felt nerfed (that is, artificially weakened) rather than actually weak. To put that a different way, within the logic that DB has laid out (and I'm using the word "logic" very loosely here) she could have, and probably would have, become stronger. If I recall, she wanted to learn to fly to be on equal footing with Gohan so when she learns he can do ki blasts she'd also want to learn that too. But oh no, Toriyama had introduced Gohan's future wife and that's it for her character development and sub-plot.

It's the same story with Bleach's version of Videl: Tatsuki. She's a tomboy too and also good at martial arts in a down-to-earth way rather than a superhuman way. Apparently Tatsuki was a better fighter than Ichigo before his Shinigami powers awoke so theoretically if she gained power the way that Chad and Orihime did, she'd have the potential to become as strong as Ichigo (sans the inner Hollow thing). She's been shown to have strong spirit (being the only person around to survive Yammy's "soul suck" attack) and she can also clearly see ghosts and Shinigami. However she was one of the only people in the "Ichigo's friends" group to not gain powers and be used as more of a main character. Again, I'm a little biased but it's Videl all over again as far as I'm concerned.

If they were still using numbered power levels later on in the series, do you really think Videl would only be a 9?

Well of course it sounds way too low, but on the other hand what would you rate a person who's essentially a realistic martial artist rather than a fireball spewing demi-god? If you think back to when Radditz first scans Piccolo and finds him to be around 380 (I'm open to being corrected on that, it's just a half-guess) it's pretty clear that Piccolo at that point could have absolutely destroyed Videl. I don't know what Roshi's power level is now or was at that point but even he can dodge and catch bullets (admittedly it was when DB was more of a gag manga).

[Rocketman]

Roshi's power level in the Saiyan saga was 137.

[Smooth Criminal]

The bukujutsu is a lot harder to perform than firing ki blasts, and it takes more energy. Note the big surprise at the end of the 23rd budokai when it was revealed that Goku could use the bukujutsu. It's not an easy technique to perform.

Videl mastered the bukujutsu in one day, so, theoretically speaking, if she was trained properly she could master firing ki blasts in even less time.

[Xyex]

His power level was well, well into the thousands.

I wouldn't go nearly that high. Sure, he held back against Videl in their fight but he never displayed anything that over the top to even consider him as on par with, let alone a challenge, to the likes of Raditz.

Roshi's power level in the Saiyan saga was 137.

I thought it was 139? Or was that 134...? Meh, whatever.

Anyway I'd peg Videl's level somewhere around 21st Budokai levels. Probably somewhere around the 60 to 80 range. Meanwhile Spoppovitch was certainly no stronger than Roshi.

[SonEric84]

If they were still using numbered power levels later on in the series, do you really think Videl would only be a 9?

Well of course it sounds way too low, but on the other hand what would you rate a person who's essentially a realistic martial artist rather than a fireball spewing demi-god? If you think back to when Radditz first scans Piccolo and finds him to be around 380 (I'm open to being corrected on that, it's just a half-guess) it's pretty clear that Piccolo at that point could have absolutely destroyed Videl. I don't know what Roshi's power level is now or was at that point but even he can dodge and catch bullets (admittedly it was when DB was more of a gag manga).

I think I would put her somewhere in the same range as Xyex just said.

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

The basis for many of these inferences seems to be that Videl can be struck by bullets. Is there any conclusive evidence of this -- I mean, post-training with Gohan? As stated before, it takes a considerable amount of concentration to use your ki to fly, so it would make sense that she could use it to do other, lesser feats as well. Such as... increasing her speed to dodge bullets? Everyone that could fly during Dragon Ball was stronger than Tsuru-sennin, and HE could do it. So why not Videl?

The second observation I have to offer is that Spopovitch's augmented strength was the sole basis for Vegeta justifying using Babidi's power. Sure, if he had a battle power around 15 to begin with, and now he's in the early 100's, that's a huge increase. But definitely not for a guy like Vegeta (with a base level probably in the tens of millions) to sit up and take notice. It would have to be a VERY substantial increase, something completely ABNORMAL, even for Vegeta's learning curve. Not even a Zenkai power-up should compare. The idea is that the ONLY way to attain such strength should be through Babidi and Babidi alone.

I'm not sure where this leaves "power levels", but Spopovitch should be very high -- ludicrously high -- for a human, even a trained human like Kuririn or Yamucha. It should be impossible by any other means to obtain his kind of power, except through dark magic. It might be interesting if Vegeta's noticing Spopovitch was due to the fact that the latter obtained his original battle power of 18,000. That would definitely get his attention.

The fact that Spopovitch can't fly or use ki blasts is irrelevant. That's a matter of ki control, not a statement on how much ki you can generate.

[Rocketman]

The idea is that the ONLY way to attain such strength before Goku returned to the afterlife in 24 hours should be through Babidi and Babidi alone.

You need this qualifier. Spopovitch's strength was not the only reason, it was also that Goku had a time limit, after which Vegeta wouldn't have the chance to fight him again.

[Dark Vegeta-Sama]

His power level was well, well into the thousands.

I wouldn't go nearly that high. Sure, he held back against Videl in their fight but he never displayed anything that over the top to even consider him as on par with, let alone a challenge, to the likes of Raditz.

No way. Babidi sent Spopovitch and Yamu to acquire energy from skilled fighters, and would've been aware of the likes of the Z soldiers. How could Spopovitch and Yamu compare to them in a fight if they were weaker than Raditz? They'd need to have been given freakishly large power levels (for a human) in order to have any hope in hell of overwhelming them and stealing energy from any of the Z fighters.

I mean, Spopovitch and Yamu were probably around Krillin's level of strength, which is likely about as strong as a human can get anyway. Being given the ability of ki control by Babidi's magic was also a huge bonus and the reason they got as far as they did. A weak power level of 100 or whatever likely couldn't contain or control that level of energy anyway.

Consider how much Babidi was able to increase Vegeta's power with his magic; if he was able to unnaturally increase a person's strength that much using his magic, it's totally conceivable that he increased Spopovitch and Yamu's power by several thousand times.

Also, consider that Babidi and his father have magic strong enough to create/contain Majin Buu, arguably the single most powerful being in the universe. If they can do that, why the hell couldn't Babidi increase Spopovitch's power to at least match Krillin's level?

Magic isn't natural. It's unpredictable. As such, it can basically do anything.

The second observation I have to offer is that Spopovitch's augmented strength was the sole basis for Vegeta justifying using Babidi's power. Sure, if he had a battle power around 15 to begin with, and now he's in the early 100's, that's a huge increase. But definitely not for a guy like Vegeta (with a base level probably in the tens of millions) to sit up and take notice. It would have to be a VERY substantial increase, something completely ABNORMAL, even for Vegeta's learning curve. Not even a Zenkai power-up should compare. The idea is that the ONLY way to attain such strength should be through Babidi and Babidi alone.

I'm not sure where this leaves "power levels", but Spopovitch should be very high -- ludicrously high -- for a human, even a trained human like Kuririn or Yamucha. It should be impossible by any other means to obtain his kind of power, except through dark magic. It might be interesting if Vegeta's noticing Spopovitch was due to the fact that the latter obtained his original battle power of 18,000. That would definitely get his attention.

Exactly. Very well said.

[Conan the SSJ]

Roshi's power level in the Saiyan saga was 137.

I thought it was 139? Or was that 134...? Meh, whatever.

Yeah, it was 139. Though we gotta keep in mind, Roshi wasn't buffed up ready to launch a max. Kamehame-Ha or putting all his life-energy into the Mafuba, so he could potentially focus his energy to a slightly higher point. If you wanna count the 25th Budokai's Punching Machine as a sort of primitive scouter, then Mr. Satan's was 137.

[Teclo]

In terms of Spopovitch's power increase, there's no reason to believe that the Majin power simply adds on a fixed amount of power - most other power-ups in the DBZ world seem to multiply the natural power level of the user.

Think of Kaioken or even the SSJ state which is meant to multiply the power level by 50 (or is that just speculation? I can't remember if it was actually officially stated).

In that sense, if a regular guy like you or I learned 10x Kaioken, we'd only end up with a power level of 50. Going SSJ would leave us with a power level of 250 - a phenomenal rise over 5 but still absolutely pathetic compared to anyone worth fighting in the DBZ world.

Back to the matter at hand; I always assumed (and I know it is just an assumption) that the Majin power upgrade multiplied the natural power level of the user/victim/client (however you look at it) and would therefore benefit someone like Vegeta greatly since they'd be adding millions onto their power level rather than just tens or hundreds like a weaker person such as Spopovich.

Finally I'd just say that he didn't really seem to be holding back against Videl and was really getting into it yet she suffered less of a beating than an average man could give to a person, never mind a super powered one.

[Rocketman]

Yeah, it was 139. Though we gotta keep in mind, Roshi wasn't buffed up ready to launch a max. Kamehame-Ha or putting all his life-energy into the Mafuba, so he could potentially focus his energy to a slightly higher point. If you wanna count the 25th Budokai's Punching Machine as a sort of primitive scouter, then Mr. Satan's was 137.

No way is Hercule's power that high. Non-buff Roshi fought Goku to a draw at the 21st Budokai.

[Teclo]

Yeah, I don't think the punching machines units of measurement are going to have anything to do with those of a scouter. Everyone that struck the machine got a rating of around 80 or 90 plus and furthermore if it was linked to battle power, Goku and co. could just have suppressed their power level when they hit it and got whatever rating they wanted rather than just having to tap the sensor.

More logically it would be something like pounds - like if you punched some weighing scales and noticed the maximum weight it displayed (if you grab a pair of weighing scales and squeeze them as hard as you can you might be surprised just how many pounds of "weight" you can generate).

That said, it's most likely just some arbitrary fictional thing like "strength points" that has no roots in reality or any relation to the other fictional measurement; battle power.

[Coola Yagami]

Spopobich wasn't that much stronger than Videl. Are we forgetting that Video KILLED Spopobich, and the only reason he was still alive was due to the Majin Power somehow letting him fix his own broken neck??? He basically tired her down and then beat the crap out of her. Any of the human fighters could have easily killed him, they were just too surprised/confused as to why some guy they never met somehow had ki control.

[Dark Vegeta-Sama]

Spopobich wasn't that much stronger than Videl. Are we forgetting that Videl KILLED Spopobich, and the only reason he was still alive was due to the Majin Power somehow letting him fix his own broken neck??? He basically tired her down and then beat the crap out of her. Any of the human fighters could have easily killed him, they were just too surprised/confused as to why some guy they never met somehow had ki control.

The only reason that Videl was even able to get such a shot in was because Spopovitch was toying with her. If he wanted to, he could've blasted her into nothingness right off the bat; he wanted to have some fun before moving onto his primary objective of acquiring energy in order to revive Majin Buu.

Plus, Videl is a strong human compared to normal standards. Physiologically speaking, a direct shot to the neck like that would probably kill or severely cripple a lot of people. Not even Krillin or Yamucha would be immune to said effect if they did get hit there. The difference is that a superhuman like Krillin or Yamucha wouldn't let themselves get hit like that to begin with due to their high speed, but in the case of Spopovitch, he purposely let it happen as part of his plan to toy with Videl until he wore her down to the point where she was too exhausted to move anymore.

The only type of people in the Dragonball universe that would actually survive a direct attack to the neck like that are Saiyans and other races, all of which are either significantly stronger than humans or would likely have a different physiological build, thus not being affected in the same way. But no matter how strong you are, if you're a human and you get a direct blow to the neck like that by another human of above average strength, you're probably going to die.

[Teclo]

You're right, though DBZ does have a rather inconsistent approach to things like being feeling pain, being crippled or knocked out - often it's for humorous effect, such as Goku seriously getting hurt by stubbing his toe, but just as often it's just that moves do the damage and effects that the plot requires and don't follow an overarching logic.

It's kinda like in Final Fantasy games where you can get shot hundreds of times by guns in a battle but if someone points a gun at you in a cutscene you'd damn well better listen to what they tell you to do, yes sir!

[Professor Daravon]

Spopobich wasn't that much stronger than Videl. Are we forgetting that Videl KILLED Spopobich, and the only reason he was still alive was due to the Majin Power somehow letting him fix his own broken neck??? He basically tired her down and then beat the crap out of her. Any of the human fighters could have easily killed him, they were just too surprised/confused as to why some guy they never met somehow had ki control.

The only reason that Videl was even able to get such a shot in was because Spopovitch was toying with her. If he wanted to, he could've blasted her into nothingness right off the bat; he wanted to have some fun before moving onto his primary objective of acquiring energy in order to revive Majin Buu.

Plus, Videl is a strong human compared to normal standards. Physiologically speaking, a direct shot to the neck like that would probably kill or severely cripple a lot of people. Not even Krillin or Yamucha would be immune to said effect if they did get hit there. The difference is that a superhuman like Krillin or Yamucha wouldn't let themselves get hit like that to begin with due to their high speed, but in the case of Spopovitch, he purposely let it happen as part of his plan to toy with Videl until he wore her down to the point where she was too exhausted to move anymore.

The only type of people in the Dragonball universe that would actually survive a direct attack to the neck like that are Saiyans and other races, all of which are either significantly stronger than humans or would likely have a different physiological build, thus not being affected in the same way. But no matter how strong you are, if you're a human and you get a direct blow to the neck like that by another human of above average strength, you're probably going to die.

That doesn't really sound like it's based on anything except your own opinions. What reason do we have to believe that Videl could break Yamucha's or Kuririn's neck if they didn't dodge her kick? I don't normally enjoy extrapolating the Saiya-jin/Freeza power level system to later points in the series, but it seems fair to assume that Kuririn's level is in the tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands by this point. Does anyone think that Videl could match up against even the likes of Piccolo Daimaou? We see at many times throughout the series, attacks that are utterly ineffective when a wide gulf separates the two fighters. The humans are usually the ones executing the ineffective attack, but that's just because they're so much weaker than any other race in the series. However, the show never offers any evidence that the same rules wouldn't apply if one of the humans found someone even weaker than they were. I find it extremely hard to believe that the only thing protecting Kuririn's or Yamucha's neck from Videl is speed.

There's absolutely no way Spopovitch's power is in the thousands. The Z Senshi even discuss that at his level of power, he shouldn't be able to use kikoha attacks, suggesting that they can discern some sort of difference between his real power and the Majin power that Babidi gave him. It seems to me like the Majin upgrade is more about energy/stamina than actual power, somewhat akin to the Artificial Humans -- they have an absolute level of power, but they have infinite energy. There may be some sort of power upgrade, but unless Spopovitch was extremely weak to begin with -- unlikely, given that he has previously qualified for the Tenkaichi Budokai -- it seems likely that it's relatively insignificant.

In reality, we have no idea how much stronger Spopovitch is than Videl. He is definitely toying with her later in the fight, but it doesn't seem clear that he was in the beginning -- in fact, he seems quite annoyed at her early success against him. My own take on that fight has always been that Videl was stronger, but Spopovitch's Majin energy allowed him to outlast her; when he eventually gained the upper hand, he enjoyed returning to her everything she had inflicted on him earlier in the fight. That is merely one way to see it, but I feel that the material supports that interpretation better than that he was simply messing with her the entire time.

To address the original question of Videl's strength: I would suggest that she and Mr. Satan are both extremely strong by average human standards. I believe it's only in the anime, so it is up to you whether you consider it canon (personally, I do), but there is a scene prior to the Cell Game in which Mr. Satan drags buses across an arena. Sure, the two of them wouldn't compare to the Z Senshi, but then, only a handful of people in the entire universe do. For humans, particularly humans with no training in ki control, they're both remarkably strong. I don't know that Mr. Satan is stronger than Muten Roshi, but I do think Roshi would have his hands full with him. And I recall (although I don't remember when it was, so I could be making this up) Gohan musing that Videl might be even stronger than her father. Why are they so much weaker than Kuririn and the other humans? It really does just go back to training, I think. Kuririn and the others have trained under Muten Roshi, who understands the use of ki. They've trained under Kami, all the humans except Kuririn have trained under Kaio, Kuririn had power unlocked by Saichoro, etc. Moreover, the humans have been constantly challenged by stronger and stronger fighters -- training for each Tenkaichi Budokai, the Saiya-jin battle, Freeza's guys, and even the Artificial Humans (sure, they were largely inconsequential by that point in the series, but they all still trained their asses off to prepare for it). Mr. Satan thinks he's the strongest man in the world and it seems like he really is, except for the Z Senshi, who don't confront him about it. While the Z Senshi have kept getting stronger for their entire lives, Mr. Satan reached a level and no longer had any challengers to push him higher. That's not to say he peaked, but he probably did plateau, at least.

Besides all that, there's one other issue, which is that power seems to increase exponentially. That does make some sense, too. The stronger you get, the more strenuous training you can endure. Consider Goku. He starts Dragon Ball at 10. After everything he goes through, he's still "only" 260 when he fights Piccolo Daimaou. He's up to 416 against Raditz. A year later, he's at 8000 against the Saiya-jin. A couple months later, he's at 3,000,000 against Freeza. Granted, Goku is a Saiya-jin, so he's abnormally strong by human standards and has access to powerups that humans don't, but it's the same basic story for everyone else. The stronger you get, the stronger you can get. Does that make any sense?

[Casual Matt]

I just want to add I was never under the impression Spopovitch let Videl break his neck. If anything, it seemed like she took ole Spaghettios by surprise.

[Drunken Master]

How about we just get a scan of when Spopovitch used a ki blast? Something was said about him being weak, and I think Kuririn said it. Also, I don't know about the manga, but in the anime, Satan says he easily beat Spopovitch at the last tournament, which means Spopovitch couldn't fly, or use ki...So the majin charm had to be a pretty good increase of power, because I'm sure no one trained him how to use his ki. Anyhow, manga scan. Do it. Just do it. Manga scan, do it.

[Teclo]

I think what Professor Daravon says makes a lot of sense.

Sort of taking what he says and running with it, I'd have to say that I think that Videl is presented as weaker than she is because (a) she's a girl, and everyone knows that all girls in shounen have a duty to be weak and useless and make their male counterparts look extra strong and deadly and (b) she was never used in a serious, plot-centric sense. Sure the whole Spopovich thing is relevant indeed to the whole Majin thing, but it's hardly Goku vs Freeza or even Vegeta vs Android 19 (I mean, Jesus, it's not even Yamcha vs Saibaiman...)

Now I am a bit of a Videl fanboy but I'm no idiot and I can objectively spot inconsistencies and suchlike when I watch many of the episodes with her in. It makes perfect sense that Krillin and even Yamcha should totally outclass her but there's no real reason that she should be quite as far behind them in terms of ability as she is. As has been mentioned before, the fact she can even fly puts her ahead of all DB characters other than Tenshinhan and Chaotzu in a certain sense. Yet she has the proverbial crap beaten out of her by a man that could be one-hit-KO'd by any other named character in the history of Dragonball, other than Mr Satan, Oolong and Puer (or however you choose to spell it...)

In fact, to let my inner fanboy out, it kind of annoyed me how they used Videl as a mere plot device to show a Majin character beating someone up. Of course, as I've said, Spopovich vs almost any other DBZ character would result in one dead Spopovich after about...oh, 1 second. It's just that Videl's moment in the spotlight was her being totally slaughtered by some cameo asshole with an "M" on his head... Rahhh, it pisses me off!