Why are certain trained humans so very weak in DBZ?

[Rocketman]

Now I am a bit of a Videl fanboy but I'm no idiot and I can objectively spot inconsistencies and suchlike when I watch many of the episodes with her in. It makes perfect sense that Krillin and even Yamcha should totally outclass her but there's no real reason that she should be quite as far behind them in terms of ability as she is.

What about that she's had all of one week of real training, while Krillin and Yamcha have trained for decades under the greatest teachers Earth has to offer and have even gotten training from gods?

[Tyro]

How about we just get a scan of when Spopovitch used a ki blast?

If anyone wants any quick quotes I have the manga right beside me right now and would gladly get them for you.

Edit: Resized picture for easy post reading.

[Teclo]

Now I am a bit of a Videl fanboy but I'm no idiot and I can objectively spot inconsistencies and suchlike when I watch many of the episodes with her in. It makes perfect sense that Krillin and even Yamcha should totally outclass her but there's no real reason that she should be quite as far behind them in terms of ability as she is.

What about that she's had all of one week of real training, while Krillin and Yamcha have trained for decades under the greatest teachers Earth has to offer and have even gotten training from gods?

But she was already an accomplished martial artist before that. To use the old "in real life" line, she'd actually be able to kick all of our asses easily were she to encounter us in some sort of confrontational situation.

I remind you once again (not you personally, but all the readers of this stuff) that Yamcha appeared at Videl's age and at a level more or less equal to Goku - admittedly Goku was weakened by being hungry but nonetheless, Yamcha must have been far above the normal human level at this point. Bearing in mind that Mr Satan is above average, then imagine Mr Satan fighting Goku at this point in the Dragonball manga... He'd kinda get humiliated. Krillin also appears at a level far surpassing almost any other human we've seen since, yet we are told something to the effect that he's actually pretty lame as far as the other monks at his temple go. Krillin being 3 years younger at his introduction than Videl is at hers.

All I'm really saying is that Krillin was a pretty lame Buddhist monk, Yamcha was a general bandit (albeit a famous one) and even Goku was a laughably weak Saiyajin... They all came from pretty inauspicious backgrounds while Videl was presumably trained from quite a young age and mastered something supposedly complex in one day. I'm not saying she should have been teleporting around and blowing up moons just for kicks, but she should at least have ended up on a level above Yamcha, Tenshinhan etc at around the Saiyajin Saga arc. Hell, she remained even weaker than Chaotzu for crying out loud!

Really I'm saying all this in good spirit, totally accepting that I'm really defending a character that DBZ didn't really have much use for... But in my "oh hell, might as well defend her" sort of way, I do really think she was underused and misused and also that any sort of good sense was thrown aside by Toriyama because she's just a girl! Not to come across as some sort of feminist but it's well known that in order for a female to be allowed into a shounen manga/anime, she has to be irredeemably useless and underpowered.

[Casual Matt]

I don't see why Videl couldn't be considered stronger than Yamucha, Kuririn, or even Goku (as they were at the beginning of Dragon Ball).

[Teclo]

I don't see why Videl couldn't be considered stronger than Yamucha, Kuririn, or even Goku (as they were at the beginning of Dragon Ball).

Well in theory, yes. But she couldn't even do ki blasts and it's generally taken (in the videogame consensus) that she couldn't do any of the basic abilities of the "proper" fighters in DBZ, such as moving so quickly you seem to disappear and reappear. Ok, so I'm resorting to referring to videogames to make a point but the fact is that, even canonically, she was basically just a pretty talented human that happened to be able to fly whereas Yamcha, Krillin, Tehshinhan and Chaotzu could all do Kamehameha, or their own equivalents, as well as a plethora of other superhuman feats. Personally I don't think Spopovich was meant to be anywhere near as strong as Nappa or early Vegeta but I have to admit that that's just supposition.

What about that she's had all of one week of real training, while Krillin and Yamcha have trained for decades under the greatest teachers Earth has to offer and have even gotten training from gods?

I meant to say this before but I forgot; to be honest, and I think many people would agree, even if Videl or any of the more "down to Earth" characters had received training from Kaio-sama et al, they still wouldn't have been "allowed" to be as good as Krillin, Yamcha and so on. It seems to be that Goku and the other Saiyajins were automatically top tier while the old hands such as Krillin were given the honour of being "amazingly powerful yet pointless" and the other characters were permanently stamped with the "look on in awe" tag. Don't get me wrong; one of the most gripping things about DBZ is the sheer difference in power between different characters, it's just that in many cases it feels like too much of a foregone conclusion.

[Drunken Master]

Hey Tyro, could you scan the reactions of the z fighters after he blasted her? Thanks.

[Rocketman]

I'm not saying she should have been teleporting around and blowing up moons just for kicks, but she should at least have ended up on a level above Yamcha, Tenshinhan etc at around the Saiyajin Saga arc. Hell, she remained even weaker than Chaotzu for crying out loud!

By the Saiyan Saga, Yamcha had trained with Roshi for three years, and Tien and Chaotzu had been Crane School students for years.

Videl, meanwhile, had trained with Hercule. There's no comparison.

But she was already an accomplished martial artist before that.

In human terms. Panpoot and King Chappa were 'accomplished martial artists' too.

I do really think she was underused and misused and also that any sort of good sense was thrown aside by Toriyama because she's just a girl! Not to come across as some sort of feminist but it's well known that in order for a female to be allowed into a shounen manga/anime, she has to be irredeemably useless and underpowered.

Or, that it was the Buu Saga, where even Vegeta gets thrown aside.

[Tyro]

Hey Tyro, could you scan the reactions of the z fighters after he blasted her? Thanks.

No problem. Anything else? I'm really bored, have all the manga, and want something to do.



This image has been resized.

[Dark Vegeta-Sama]

That doesn't really sound like it's based on anything except your own opinions.

Incase you haven't figured it out, this entire discussion is based upon people's opinions; there's nothing to verify any of this other than speculation.

There's absolutely no way Spopovitch's power is in the thousands.

Sure there is, and I've already explained why. Your opinion is that his power level can't be in the thousands, but my opinion is that his power level is that high.

In reality, we have no idea how much stronger Spopovitch is than Videl.

Exactly, making this whole topic pointless. We're here to discuss it and all, but in the end, there are no definite answers. Also, you admit to being a Videl fan, which sort of explains your point of view. That's perfectly fine, by the way.

[Teclo]

I'm not saying she should have been teleporting around and blowing up moons just for kicks, but she should at least have ended up on a level above Yamcha, Tenshinhan etc at around the Saiyajin Saga arc. Hell, she remained even weaker than Chaotzu for crying out loud!

By the Saiyan Saga, Yamcha had trained with Roshi for three years, and Tenshinhan and Chaotzu had been Crane School students for years.

Videl, meanwhile, had trained with Mr. Satan. There's no comparison.

To sum it up; you can go on about training all you like - and it is a valid point to an extent - but ultimately the power level of a person is a reading of their natural ability and training combined as well any techniques they have under their belt. Sure, Krillin and Yamcha got trained by Roshi but he only had a power level of 130ish himself and while his students were fighting the Saiyajins they only had a power level of 1000 to 2000. Despite that they could all do powerful ki blast moves and even Roshi, with a power level of just over 100, could destroy a mountain with his Kamehameha.

But she was already an accomplished martial artist before that.

In human terms. Panpoot and King Chappa were 'accomplished martial artists' too.

And again, Master Roshi was only good "in human terms", as was Yamcha and Krillin. Even by around the Saiyajin Saga, the only people who couldn't kick the crap out of Roshi were his students' wives and girlfriends.

I do really think she was underused and misused and also that any sort of good sense was thrown aside by Toriyama because she's just a girl! Not to come across as some sort of feminist but it's well known that in order for a female to be allowed into a shounen manga/anime, she has to be irredeemably useless and underpowered.

Or, that it was the Buu Saga, where even Vegeta gets thrown aside.

I'd hardly say he gets thrown aside. There's the whole Majin Vegeta thing, the fact he fuses with Goku to make Vegetto and the fact that, IIRC, he keeps Kid Buu busy while Goku prepares a Genki Dama.

If Videl was the only DB girl to get tossed aside and underpowered, I'd also just put it down to it being the Buu Saga, but all through DB we've seen women being laughably underpowered. I mean the fact that a small gay doll like Chaotzu is way stronger than any woman other than Android 18 says it all. Which brings me to the other point that it seems also telling that the only woman that can fight well is augmented with robotic parts. I mean, I'm not sitting there thinking "moar powah to the wimmenz!" when I watch DBZ but it's still a little... frustrating, I guess, how every woman but one is some ditzy pointless bit of fluff, or ends up that way. Same as how Toriyama seemed to be against doing any female SSJ even though he'd happily draw plenty of little boy SSJ...

[Dark Vegeta-Sama]

If Videl was the only DB girl to get tossed aside and underpowered, I'd also just put it down to it being the Buu Saga, but all through DB we've seen women being laughably underpowered. I mean the fact that a small gay doll like Chaotzu is way stronger than any woman other than Android 18 says it all. Which brings me to the other point that it seems also telling that the only woman that can fight well is augmented with robotic parts. I mean, I'm not sitting there thinking "moar powah to the wimmenz!" when I watch DBZ but it's still a little... frustrating, I guess, how every woman but one is some ditzy pointless bit of fluff, or ends up that way. Same as how Toriyama seemed to be against doing any female SSJ even though he'd happily draw plenty of little boy SSJ...

Well, to be fair, an explanation like "1/4 Saiyans can't achieve Super Saiyan status because the Saiyan blood is too diluted by that point" is a fair and reasonable way to go.

The end of GT screwed it up, what with making a 1/16 Saiyan able to achieve it, but whatever. On a side note, is Goku Jr. supposed to be Pan's Grandson or Great-Great-Grandson? I've heard both, but have never watched an accurate translation of the final episode of GT. If he's the latter, that would make him 1/64 Saiyan, which is even more of a slap in the face to Pan for not being able to go Super Saiyan.

Either way, if you go strictly by the manga, it's easy to reconcile the idea that only pureblooded Saiyans and half-Saiyans can go SSJ, so the only way you'd ever see a female do this is if Goku and Chi Chi had a daughter. Of course there's Bra, a half-Saiyan, but her never becoming a fighter would prevent her from achieving SSJ status even despite being Vegeta's daughter.

[Humpski]

I really wish there were more female fighters in the series...

I can't wait to use Seripa in the new Sparking game.

[Casual Matt]

I really wish there were more female fighters in the series...

I can't wait to use Seripa in the new Sparking game.

It seems like in the Sparking games they're trying to add more female characters. My favorite example of this from NEO is them using Zangya instead of Gokua, who are both equally worthy of being in it, IMHO. Now they're doing essentially the same thing in METEOR by having Selypa instead of Toma.

[Rocketman]

To sum it up; you can go on about training all you like - and it is a valid point to an extent - but ultimately the power level of a person is a reading of their natural ability and training combined as well any techniques they have under their belt. Sure, Krillin and Yamcha got trained by Roshi but he only had a power level of 130ish himself

There's where you're messing up. 'Only' 139 is nearly thirty times stronger than an average human. Videl could have a power level of 50, absolutely destroying any normal human, and still be dwarfed by Roshi.

And again, Master Roshi was only good "in human terms", as was Yamcha and Krillin. Even by around the Saiyajin Saga, the only people who couldn't kick the crap out of Roshi were his students' wives and girlfriends.

And the vast amount of normal humans, to whom Videl belongs. Roshi is superhuman. Hell, the first thing he says to Goku and Krillin when they begin their training is that they're going to have to break the human limits. Then later he catches machine gun fire.

I'd hardly say he gets thrown aside. There's the whole Majin Vegeta thing, the fact he fuses with Goku to make Vegetto and the fact that, IIRC, he keeps Kid Buu busy while Goku prepares a Genki Dama.

And he gets totally crushed by Fat and Kid Buu. He fares no better in his fights than Videl does vs Spopovich.

I mean the fact that a small gay doll like Chaotzu is way stronger than any woman other than Android 18 says it all.

Chaotzu trained under King Kai.

I mean, I'm not sitting there thinking "moar powah to the wimmenz!" when I watch DBZ but it's still a little... frustrating, I guess, how every woman but one is some ditzy pointless bit of fluff, or ends up that way. Same as how Toriyama seemed to be against doing any female SSJ even though he'd happily draw plenty of little boy SSJ...

There...aren't any female Saiyans until the last couple pages. And I'd hardly call ChiChi and Bulma fluff.

Honestly, I think you're expecting way too much from a normal human who's done only normal human training (read: realistic training) her whole life.

[Teclo]

Well, to be fair, an explanation like "1/4 Saiyans can't achieve Super Saiyan status because the Saiyan blood is too diluted by that point" is a fair and reasonable way to go.

The end of GT screwed it up, what with making a 1/16 Saiyan able to achieve it, but whatever. On a side note, is Goku Jr. supposed to be Pan's Grandson or Great-Great-Grandson? I've heard both, but have never watched an accurate translation of the final episode of GT. If he's the latter, that would make him 1/64 Saiyan, which is even more of a slap in the face to Pan for not being able to go Super Saiyan.

Either way, if you go strictly by the manga, it's easy to reconcile the idea that only pureblooded Saiyans and half-Saiyans can go SSJ, so the only way you'd ever see a female do this is if Goku and Chi Chi had a daughter. Of course there's Bra, a half-Saiyan, but her never becoming a fighter would prevent her from achieving SSJ status even despite being Vegeta's daughter.

Well that's the interesting thing, isn't it? If you excuse Pan with "1/4 Saiyajin's can't go SSJ" you still can't excuse Bra - but one way that Toriyama could squeeze out of that was to make her into a stereotypical teenage girl. I mean he did go on record as saying that the reason there are no female SSJs is that he just didn't know how to draw them (not in the sense that he lacked the ability but in the sense that he wasn't sure how they should look). If you've seen Jessica go into "super tension" mode in Dragon Quest VIII you'll have seen that he basically drew her as a female SSJ (with the hero looking rather like SSJ Goku and Angelo looking rather like a SSJ Trunks IIRC). In the end he drew a "female SSJ" just how one would expect him to draw them; a woman given the same traits that a man gets when he goes SSJ - namely more stern, aggressive eyes, lifted up hair made more spiky and an aura surrounding them (in this case a purple aura rather than a yellow one).

I can't find a decent pic of Jessica in super high tension mode, but here's the hero:

[Professor Daravon]

That doesn't really sound like it's based on anything except your own opinions.

Incase you haven't figured it out, this entire discussion is based upon people's opinions; there's nothing to verify any of this other than speculation.

Yeah, but some opinions (such as mine) are based on the information presented in the story, and others (such as yours) are based on nothing as far as I can see. I offered you three paragraphs explaining my reasoning, which I feel is quite sound, and all you can give back is a snarky reply about how it's all just opinions anyway?

There's absolutely no way Spopovitch's power is in the thousands.

Sure there is, and I've already explained why. Your opinion is that his power level can't be in the thousands, but my opinion is that his power level is that high.

And, as I pointed out, your explanation is based on nothing except an assumption that Videl could break Kuririn's neck -- and that isn't based on anything either.

In reality, we have no idea how much stronger Spopovitch is than Videl.

Exactly, making this whole topic pointless. We're here to discuss it and all, but in the end, there are no definite answers. Also, you admit to being a Videl fan, which sort of explains your point of view. That's perfectly fine, by the way.

There are no definite answers, but it is quite possible to make reasonable estimates, which is what I did in the rest of my post that you disregarded. Since you assert that I "admit to being a Videl fan," I wonder whether you actually read my post in the first place. I made no such admission. My point of view isn't based on which characters I like or dislike, it's based on what we see in the anime.

[Dark Vegeta-Sama]

And, as I pointed out, your explanation is based on nothing except an assumption that Videl could break Kuririn's neck -- and that isn't based on anything either.

Nothing except for, you know, basic human physiology. Are you saying the Krillin is immune to the effects of a severe blow to the neck just because he trained with Roshi?

There are no definite answers, but it is quite possible to make reasonable estimates, which is what I did in the rest of my post that you disregarded. Since you assert that I "admit to being a Videl fan," I wonder whether you actually read my post in the first place. I made no such admission. My point of view isn't based on which characters I like or dislike, it's based on what we see in the anime.

I did read your post, and I disagree with it.

Anyway, I just watched some of the 25th Budokai episodes, and from what I can tell, Spopovitch was a fuckload stronger than Videl the whole time. In the first episode of the fight, where it seems like Videl has the advantage, Spopovitch doesn't really do anything; he doesn't even attack until near the end of the episode when Videl is already pretty warn down. He just takes the hits and keeps getting back up, but never attacks initially. He toys with her by letting her beat him down several times and believe that she can actually win. Some of the various characters' dialogue pretty much verifies this, as Gohan says at one point that Spopovitch knew he could beat Videl the whole time and was toying with her. Also, Krillin makes a statement about how "Spopovitch's energy beam wasn't all that strong" but afterward Vegeta makes it clear that Spopovitch was purposely holding back so that he wouldn't kill her, as he'd be disqualified that way.

So yeah, you might say you're forming opinions based on what we see in the anime, but so am I. Unless we're watching two different shows here, Spopovitch has some serious power given to him by Babidi. Weaker than Raditz he is not.

[Teclo]

Well it's a kind of circular logic here. However strong Spopvich may seem, you can't compare him to Radditz because Radditz wasn't fighting a schoolgirl. However you look at it, the stronger you want Spopovich to be, the stronger Videl must be since she is the benchmark of his power. If he fought Bulma and one hit killed her it wouldn't really say much for his power. If he did the same to Goku he'd be insanely strong.

There's no link between Spopovich and any other character other than Videl. If Videl had fought other characters you could therefore compare them indirectly to Spopovich but this is the only person you see her fight. Whether that means that he has a power level of 150 and she has one of 10 or that he has a power level of 15,000 and she has one of 1000 is impossible to gauge. Theoretically there's no limit on it, he could have a power level of 900 million and she could have one of 500 million and the fight would still go the same way. But as I said, if you want his utter defeat of her to mean that he has a high power level you also have to give her a high-ish power level for his victory to mean something, or else you may as well say say he's strong if he defeated Oolong.

So long story short, you can't gauge his power level from his fight with Videl, you can only take it that he's significantly stronger than her - whether that be 150 vs 10 or 15,000 vs 1000 we cannot say.

[Dark Vegeta-Sama]

Spopovitch is insanely powerful by human standards. That's all we know, and that's all that I've been saying basically. You are free to disagree, but my opinion stands.

Did I ever insinuate that he could compare against the likes of Goku or Vegeta? Hell no. He might have freakish power for a human, but no human can ever stand up to a Saiyan.

Still, in my own opinion, he would likely defeat Krillin in battle, if not due to having a higher power than him, then at least because of his infinite stamina. I don't know how high Krillin's power level is in the Buu saga, but it's probably not even close to being on par with Freeza, for example. If Babidi uses magic that is powerful enough to create Majin Buu, who is infinitely more powerful than Freeza, then surely he can at least bring a human's power to the absolutely highest possible limits that the human body can withstand.

[Thanos6]

He might have freakish power for a human, but no human can ever stand up to a Saiyan.

Well, that depends. Say, Buu saga Tenshinhan or Kuririn vs. Raditz.