Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

I've been seeing people say that the ROSAT is only as big as Earth. Where are you getting that being a multi-galaxy level feat?

Because Vegeta ripped asunder the fabric of reality that makes up the Rosat dimension. Just a little science, but the amount of energy to rip a hole the size of the one Super Buu and SS3 Gotenks created is bare minimum on the order of a standard super nova (10^44 joules). Vegeta ripped apart spacetime the size of Earth by flaring his aura which is somewhere around 10^56 joules. To nuke a standard size galaxy (100-200 billion stars) is between 10^52 to 10^53 joules.

Keep in mind SSR Black's energy blade ripped apart what appears to be miles worth of spacetime which is around galaxy level and SSB Vegeta was more or less on par with that version of SSR Black if not potentially stronger.

As for the topic I find if funny the deeper we get into this ToP saga the harder it becomes to rank these characters. Before this episods 18 seemed at least above base saiyan level to above SSJ to SSJ2 level by moving Cocotte's barrier to stomping Ribrianne and Supet Ribrianne.

Vegeta seems like the one causing confusion and not really everyone else (Goku, Freeza, Gohan, and Piccolo) as originally thought. I say becauze the police ranger guy looked to be just as syrong as 18 if not potentially stronger as appeared to be in serious trouble haf 17 not come tk her rescue, yet base Vegeta faces a version 300x stronger than the one that 18 was plttembling before.

Keep in mind Vegeta tanked every hit, got fed up and easily beat the crap out of ranger cop dude. So is base Vegeta over 300x stronger than 18 who's stronger than base saiyan level or is this more fuel for two base theory?

The two base theory was dead the moment Freeza needed his Golden form to tank an attack from SS2 Cabba.

You do have a good point about the policeman. It's implied that he would have gave 18 trouble yet Vegeta completely demolished a version 300 times stronger without any effort.

I'm still sticking with 18 being SS2 Boo arc tier at best. U2 is just really weak.

[lord turbo]

The two base theory was dead the moment Freeza needed his Golden form to tank an attack from SS2 Cabba.

You do have a good point about the policeman. It's implied that he would have gave 18 trouble yet Vegeta completely demolished a version 300 times stronger without any effort.

I'm still sticking with 18 being SS2 Boo arc tier at best. U2 is just really weak.

Didn't Freeza mention Golden mode was unnecessary/overkill and he got carried away? I vaguely remember such a line. If 18 is around SS2 Buu arc tier wouldn't that make base Vegeta over 300 that level currently?

[Bullza]

The only thing we can do to make sense of it all is to say that Goku, Vegeta and 17 all went easy on her.

Android 17 would have had to be messing around. Vegeta obviously was as a Super Saiyan seeing as he beat her in Base form.

As for Goku, he was holding back in Base form initially. He only had trouble with Super Ribrianne.

So Ribrianne would be below the Base Saiyans but Super Ribrianne and Giant Super Ribrianne would be above the Base Saiyans.

If Android 18 is above Giant Super Ribrianne then she in turn must be stronger than the Base Saiyans as well.

[ZombieVito]

The two base theory was dead the moment Freeza needed his Golden form to tank an attack from SS2 Cabba.

You do have a good point about the policeman. It's implied that he would have gave 18 trouble yet Vegeta completely demolished a version 300 times stronger without any effort.

I'm still sticking with 18 being SS2 Boo arc tier at best. U2 is just really weak.

Didn't Freeza mention Golden mode was unnecessary/overkill and he got carried away? I vaguely remember such a line. If 18 is around SS2 Buu arc tier wouldn't that make base Vegeta over 300 that level currently?

Not exactly. He said that fighting Cabba for long will be wasting energy on trash so he eliminated him instantly.

Base Goku and Vegeta are way stronger than SS3 Gotenks so it fits.

Android 17 would have had to be messing around. Vegeta obviously was as a Super Saiyan seeing as he beat her in Base form.

As for Goku, he was holding back in Base form initially. He only had trouble with Super Ribrianne.

So Ribrianne would be below the Base Saiyans but Super Ribrianne and Giant Super Ribrianne would be above the Base Saiyans.

If Android 18 is above Giant Super Ribrianne then she in turn must be stronger than the Base Saiyans as well.

So 18 got stronger than SS3 Gotenks with a few months of training? She even says in this episode that the only thing she does in the day is to take care of Marron and Kuririn.

I much rather believe U2 is weak. The policeman implication can't be ignore as well.

[Noah]

So 18 got stronger than SS3 Gotenks with a few months of training? She even says in this episode that the only thing she does in the day is to take care of Marron and Kuririn.

What's the big deal? Android 17 got stronger than SSJ God by spending 10 years taking care of wild animals

[lord turbo]

Not exactly. He said that fighting Cabba for long will be wasting energy on trash so he eliminated him instantly.

Base Goku and Vegeta are way stronger than SS3 Gotenks so it fits.

Okay, I honestly couldn't remember, wouldn't that suggest final form Freeza could have taken SSN2 Cabba, he would just lose stamina/energy that he prefers not to in the process?

As for Goku, he was holding back in Base form initially. He only had trouble with Super Ribrianne.

So Ribrianne would be below the Base Saiyans but Super Ribrianne and Giant Super Ribrianne would be above the Base Saiyans.

If Android 18 is above Giant Super Ribrianne then she in turn must be stronger than the Base Saiyans as well.

I don't think base Goku was holding back against Ribrianne, they seemed more or less evenly matched, for the Ribrianne powered by love Goku couldn't even KO or revert her back to base form even with a offguarded SSB attack while 18 pretty much one-shotted Super Giant Ribrianne (Kid Goku through Demon King Piccolo style).

18 also moved Cocotte's barrier when powered up Caulifla and Kale's combined blast could not. 18 seems way stronger than any base saiyan and SSJ/SSJ2 Goku or Gohan+ level. I signaled Vegeta out as his stats seems bizarrely above everyone (possibly due to Rosat training?) His base is potentially 300x over 18 so we might have to put Vegeta in his own tier separate from the other saiyans.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'm just gonna stick with the interpretation that battle power doesn't generally factor in unless the implied intent is to showcase it specifically.

Case in point, Jiren vs. SSB/KKx20 Goku. A clear establishment of Jiren's strength.

This recent episode? Not so much. 18 did well because she was a good fighter and had the determination and willpower provided by her love for Krillin and Marron to "out-love" Giant Ribrianne's own.

If anything, only Vegeta showcased any "real" power-scaling, because Katsopera was specifically touted as increasing his power 300 times and shown to beat Vegeta over and over and just pissing him off because he's trying to not fight back.

[Helios518]

I've been seeing people say that the ROSAT is only as big as Earth. Where are you getting that being a multi-galaxy level feat?

Because Vegeta ripped asunder the fabric of reality that makes up the Rosat dimension. Just a little science, but the amount of energy to rip a hole the size of the one Super Buu and SS3 Gotenks created is bare minimum on the order of a standard super nova (10^44 joules). Vegeta ripped apart spacetime the size of Earth by flaring his aura which is somewhere around 10^56 joules. To nuke a standard size galaxy (100-200 billion stars) is between 10^52 to 10^53 joules.

Keep in mind SSR Black's energy blade ripped apart what appears to be miles worth of spacetime which is around galaxy level and SSB Vegeta was more or less on par with that version of SSR Black if not potentially stronger.

As for the topic I find if funny the deeper we get into this ToP saga the harder it becomes to rank these characters. Before this episods 18 seemed at least above base saiyan level to above SSJ to SSJ2 level by moving Cocotte's barrier to stomping Ribrianne and Supet Ribrianne.

Vegeta seems like the one causing confusion and not really everyone else (Goku, Freeza, Gohan, and Piccolo) as originally thought. I say becauze the police ranger guy looked to be just as syrong as 18 if not potentially stronger as appeared to be in serious trouble haf 17 not come tk her rescue, yet base Vegeta faces a version 300x stronger than the one that 18 was plttembling before.

Keep in mind Vegeta tanked every hit, got fed up and easily beat the crap out of ranger cop dude. So is base Vegeta over 300x stronger than 18 who's stronger than base saiyan level or is this more fuel for two base theory?

Where are you getting the numbers for ripping time and space?

[Miracles]

I think that you are right now that I have taken time to think about it. I just have trouble believing character statements due to it can be tricky telling if they are right or not. I have no problem with you man, and I don't like to attack other people using personal attacks. I'm glad we can agrue without that happening.

Me too...It's been civil... If I come off a little aggressive please let me know. I don't mean to. Trust me it's all friendly.

The energy / Ki of Kefla rivals GK in the sense that she is was able to make Goku activate the UI, the capacity was the same. But Whis NEVER said that Kefla's energy competes with GK's in QUANTITY, this is something totally different and it's just the way you interpreted it.

This also does not prove that Kefla SSJ> Goku SSB KK x20 because Kefla forced Goku to activate the UI in a totally different context (compared to GK). Goku was already tired and lowered his guard, Kefla took advantage of this to defeat him and the fact of being out of power (because of Kefla's attack) caused Goku to activate the UI again.
The GK made Goku '' break the shell '' because of his explosion and the fact that Goku is also at the limit of his body
Whis speech simply does not match what was shown on EP 115. It would be inconsistent to think that way (as it was clear in this EP that Goku SSB KK >>> Kefla SSJ). So what we can do is give another context to the situation.

You state that Whis says Kefla's energy/ki rivals the power of the Genki dama. Then go on to say Whis never stated her power competes with the AMOUNT?!
Even tho Whis stated her energy rivals, which means it EQUALS in the AMOUNT/QUANTITY of power to the Genki Dama. That's a contradiction on your part.
You can't give Whis canon statement about Kefla's SSJ rivaling the power of the bomb another context when SSJ Kefla TKO's Goku OUT OF KK Blue with just ONE KICK!!! The actions equal the statements.

No, this does not mean that Kefla's energy competes with GK's in quantity, but in the ability to make Goku activate the UI. These two energies forced Goku to '' break the shell '' again and Whis underscores that.

You're totally ignoring the context of the fight between Goku Blue KK and Kefla SSJ just to say she defeated Goku with a kick.
He was CLEAR with the low guard, and Beerus said that Goku would have to finalize the fight in the next attack because he was not even able to keep Blue KK (Kamehameha was the last attack, and Kefla's kick was enough for Goku was almost without energy, falling)

Kefla SSJ could not even FOLLOW the speed of the Blue KK tired, was shaking to get up with a punch and needed a distraction to defeat Goku, how will she be superior to the Blue KK x20? The context of the Whis speech you are saying simply does not fit, it is not coherent.

You are ignoring the context that Kefla was NOT trying to defeat Goku. She wanted the match to prolong as much as possible and wanted to increase her power. She was even sad that Goku was ONE SHOTTED. Which is ANOTHER PROOF that Goku wasn't in her league after being defeated by just one blow. Then you ignore the fact that Kefla SSJ2 SURPASSED UI Goku's power, stated by Kefla and Piccolo. In order to do that she has to be above the bomb and KKx20 Blue. In addition, Kefla was so strong she could of KILLED UI Goku with her final attack. All this proves Whis statement about Kefla SS rivaling the spirit bomb and being greater than KKx20 Blue. These are the truths that the story wants the fans to adhere to.

[Bullza]

I don't think base Goku was holding back against Ribrianne, they seemed more or less evenly matched, for the Ribrianne powered by love Goku couldn't even KO or revert her back to base form even with a offguarded SSB attack while 18 pretty much one-shotted Super Giant Ribrianne (Kid Goku through Demon King Piccolo style).

When Base Goku first fought Ribrianne it was said that his attacks didn't even faze her which is a far cry from what Base Vegeta did.

When she powered up into Super Ribrianne, Goku said he would let out more power, he didn't transform then so it would have been in his Base form which meant when he fought Ribrianne he was holding back.

Against Super Ribrianne he seemed weaker too. So I'd say Ribrianne was weaker than the Base Saiyans normally but stronger with the Super and Giant Super forms.

[dragon boss z]

Because Vegeta ripped asunder the fabric of reality that makes up the Rosat dimension. Just a little science, but the amount of energy to rip a hole the size of the one Super Buu and SS3 Gotenks created is bare minimum on the order of a standard super nova (10^44 joules). Vegeta ripped apart spacetime the size of Earth by flaring his aura which is somewhere around 10^56 joules. To nuke a standard size galaxy (100-200 billion stars) is between 10^52 to 10^53 joules.

I meant these numbers seemed kind of like assumptions to me. There is no way to know for sure how much energy it would take to rip a dimension or if it is even possible to do it like that in our reality.

As for the topic I find if funny the deeper we get into this ToP saga the harder it becomes to rank these characters. Before this episods 18 seemed at least above base saiyan level to above SSJ to SSJ2 level by moving Cocotte's barrier to stomping Ribrianne and Supet Ribrianne.

Ya it's weird. I think I'll just go with 18 is stronger than she was in the androids saga (but probably still below perfect Cell), while 17 is around perfect Cell level (the only feat that really puts him higher is his fight with Goku, which I don't trust).

Vegeta seems like the one causing confusion and not really everyone else (Goku, Freeza, Gohan, and Piccolo) as originally thought. I say becauze the police ranger guy looked to be just as syrong as 18 if not potentially stronger as appeared to be in serious trouble haf 17 not come tk her rescue, yet base Vegeta faces a version 300x stronger than the one that 18 was plttembling before.


Keep in mind Vegeta tanked every hit, got fed up and easily beat the crap out of ranger cop dude. So is base Vegeta over 300x stronger than 18 who's stronger than base saiyan level or is this more fuel for two base theory?

Well he was in his speed mode against 18, so in other words he was 300x slower when fighting Vegeta, but ya he was 300x stronger as well.

So I would say 18<17<=>base Vegeta

[dragon boss z]

I've been seeing people say that the ROSAT is only as big as Earth. Where are you getting that being a multi-galaxy level feat?

Because Vegeta ripped asunder the fabric of reality that makes up the Rosat dimension. Just a little science, but the amount of energy to rip a hole the size of the one Super Buu and SS3 Gotenks created is bare minimum on the order of a standard super nova (10^44 joules). Vegeta ripped apart spacetime the size of Earth by flaring his aura which is somewhere around 10^56 joules. To nuke a standard size galaxy (100-200 billion stars) is between 10^52 to 10^53 joules.

Keep in mind SSR Black's energy blade ripped apart what appears to be miles worth of spacetime which is around galaxy level and SSB Vegeta was more or less on par with that version of SSR Black if not potentially stronger.

As for the topic I find if funny the deeper we get into this ToP saga the harder it becomes to rank these characters. Before this episods 18 seemed at least above base saiyan level to above SSJ to SSJ2 level by moving Cocotte's barrier to stomping Ribrianne and Supet Ribrianne.

Vegeta seems like the one causing confusion and not really everyone else (Goku, Freeza, Gohan, and Piccolo) as originally thought. I say becauze the police ranger guy looked to be just as syrong as 18 if not potentially stronger as appeared to be in serious trouble haf 17 not come tk her rescue, yet base Vegeta faces a version 300x stronger than the one that 18 was plttembling before.

Keep in mind Vegeta tanked every hit, got fed up and easily beat the crap out of ranger cop dude. So is base Vegeta over 300x stronger than 18 who's stronger than base saiyan level or is this more fuel for two base theory?

The two base theory was dead the moment Freeza needed his Golden form to tank an attack from SS2 Cabba.

You do have a good point about the policeman. It's implied that he would have gave 18 trouble yet Vegeta completely demolished a version 300 times stronger without any effort.

I'm still sticking with 18 being SS2 Boo arc tier at best. U2 is just really weak.

I just think Goku and Vegeta usually hold back and their full power base is around U6 ssj2 level. Goku even did well against ssj2 Caulifla in base while tired, and most people agree that final form Frieza could beat ssj2 Cabba, though it may of been a lot harder than while in Golden.

[majinwarman]

Because Vegeta ripped asunder the fabric of reality that makes up the Rosat dimension. Just a little science, but the amount of energy to rip a hole the size of the one Super Buu and SS3 Gotenks created is bare minimum on the order of a standard super nova (10^44 joules). Vegeta ripped apart spacetime the size of Earth by flaring his aura which is somewhere around 10^56 joules. To nuke a standard size galaxy (100-200 billion stars) is between 10^52 to 10^53 joules.

Keep in mind SSR Black's energy blade ripped apart what appears to be miles worth of spacetime which is around galaxy level and SSB Vegeta was more or less on par with that version of SSR Black if not potentially stronger.

As for the topic I find if funny the deeper we get into this ToP saga the harder it becomes to rank these characters. Before this episods 18 seemed at least above base saiyan level to above SSJ to SSJ2 level by moving Cocotte's barrier to stomping Ribrianne and Supet Ribrianne.

Vegeta seems like the one causing confusion and not really everyone else (Goku, Freeza, Gohan, and Piccolo) as originally thought. I say becauze the police ranger guy looked to be just as syrong as 18 if not potentially stronger as appeared to be in serious trouble haf 17 not come tk her rescue, yet base Vegeta faces a version 300x stronger than the one that 18 was plttembling before.

Keep in mind Vegeta tanked every hit, got fed up and easily beat the crap out of ranger cop dude. So is base Vegeta over 300x stronger than 18 who's stronger than base saiyan level or is this more fuel for two base theory?

The two base theory was dead the moment Freeza needed his Golden form to tank an attack from SS2 Cabba.

You do have a good point about the policeman. It's implied that he would have gave 18 trouble yet Vegeta completely demolished a version 300 times stronger without any effort.

I'm still sticking with 18 being SS2 Boo arc tier at best. U2 is just really weak.

I just think Goku and Vegeta usually hold back and their full power base is around U6 ssj2 level. Goku even did well against ssj2 Caulifla in base while tired, and most people agree that final form Frieza could beat ssj2 Cabba, though it may of been a lot harder than while in Golden.

I think Freeza went Golden just to get the fight over with. Even he said," Wasting stamina just to eliminate trash".

[lord turbo]

Where are you getting the numbers for ripping time and space?

From current science.

I meant these numbers seemed kind of like assumptions to me. There is no way to know for sure how much energy it would take to rip a dimension or if it is even possible to do it like that in our reality.

Its based off of current science.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2014032 ... -wormholes

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/cienc ... energy.htm

From there you gauge the bare minimum amount if energy it takes to rip alart spacetime.

[dragon boss z]

I think Freeza went Golden just to get the fight over with. Even he said," Wasting stamina just to eliminate trash".

I agree.

Where are you getting the numbers for ripping time and space?

From current science.

Its based off of current science.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2014032 ... -wormholes

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/cienc ... energy.htm

From there you gauge the bare minimum amount if energy it takes to rip alart spacetime.

I mean you can use that as a guideline but real science has never meshed well with dragon ball.

[dragon boss z]

It's funny when I see fans going on about how a particular character shouldn't be stronger than another, just because this so-called powerhouse was established as some unthinkable source of power in the past.

It's not the fans, the writers make some things pretty clear. It was heavily implied that Mr. Buu was stronger than everyone besides Goku/Vegeta (and 17 since nobody knew where he was) multiple times throughout Super.

17 = SSB Goku / Vegeta (RoF) > 18 (after flashback) > Ribrianne (powered up) > Ribrianne > Buuhan > 18 > SSJ3 (Buu saga) > Mr. Buu

Seriously, I find nothing wrong with that power scale whatsoever. Namek Frieza, a being once considered unrivaled was turned into a joke by the time Trunks arrived. I don't see why it's so impossible for this to be the case for Buu.

I don't find them getting that strong impossible, it's just that they were shown not to be (at least 18). I have little doubt that if Buu was in the tournament he would destroy most of the people in it, which is probably one of the reasons he was taken out. And from what we've seen now I'm almost certain Goku was heavily suppressed against 17 since he has been having trouble with people weaker or around base Goku's strength throughout the tournament.

This is my scale if I'm being very generous to the androids

SSB Goku/Vegeta/Golden Frieza>SSG Goku>=current ultimate Gohan<=>17>base Goku<=>Ribrianne<=>Mr. Buu<=>18

And you say namek Frieza became fodder but he could probably beat 50% of the people in this tournament.

[ZombieVito]

I don't find them getting that strong impossible, it's just that they were shown not to be (at least 18). I have little doubt that if Buu was in the tournament he would destroy most of the people in it, which is probably one of the reasons he was taken out. And from what we've seen now I'm almost certain Goku was heavily suppressed against 17 since he has been having trouble with people weaker or around base Goku's strength throughout the tournament.

This is my scale if I'm being very generous to the androids

SSB Goku/Vegeta/Golden Frieza>SSG Goku>=current ultimate Gohan<=>17>base Goku<=>Ribrianne<=>Mr. Buu<=>18

And you say namek Frieza became fodder but he could probably beat 50% of the people in this tournament.

Well a writer (Toshio I think?) in the show did say Gohan = 17 on Twitter.

I do agree with 18's placement. She shouldn't be stronger than Boo and the implication with the policemen just fits perfectly with how strong is base Goku currently.

Someone should ask the same writer how strong is 18 exactly.

[dragon boss z]

Well a writer (Toshio I think?) in the show did say Gohan = 17 on Twitter.

Ya, that's why I put them around the same level, though an episode writer's word isn't final and he said it was just his opinion. He has had problems with multiple opponents base Goku were holding his own against, so I personally have him around base Goku level, which should be high Buu tier now if we go off the Gotenks feat.

I do agree with 18's placement. She shouldn't be stronger than Boo and the implication with the policemen just fits perfectly with how strong is base Goku currently.

I personal would still put her below perfect Cell, but above semi perfect Cell. I think she definitely got stronger, but I really don't see her beating Cell by herself, though that is just my personal belief and I have no evidence to back it up. However I do think there is ample evidence putting her below Buu.

[ZombieVito]

I personal would still put her below perfect Cell, but above semi perfect Cell. I think she definitely got stronger, but I really don't see her beating Cell by herself, though that is just my personal belief and I have no evidence to back it up. However I do think there is ample evidence putting her below Buu.

I can see that.

She did make Shin her bitch so that puts her at the minimum at over Cell Junior tier.

[dragon boss z]

I personal would still put her below perfect Cell, but above semi perfect Cell. I think she definitely got stronger, but I really don't see her beating Cell by herself, though that is just my personal belief and I have no evidence to back it up. However I do think there is ample evidence putting her below Buu.

I can see that.

She did make Shin her bitch so that puts her at the minimum at over Cell Junior tier.

Tbh Shin is kind of a weenie. He pretty much cowered to any threat and was concerned about Babadie's fodder. Though I wouldn't be surprised if 18 could beat him.