Why are 5/8 universes total fodder?

[TekTheNinja]

To be fair most of the fighters seem to range around SSJ1-SSJ2 power.

Which means the main cast up to the end of the Cell saga would have had a difficult time taking some characters down. The mere fact that the Trio de Dangers were as strong as Perfect Cell or more says a lot. That means our Universe 7 would have been screwed if the TOP took place during the Cell saga era, or even early Buu saga.

Yes. "Total fodder" is a total exaggeration.

But that doesn't matter now. At this point in the series that kind of power is the power of total fodder. Just like how if Goku fought King Piccolo and his minions now, they would be total fodder, but back then they weren't. It's all relative.

[Zagacious]

People who want a tense and entertaining tournament that's more than just a squash match say that. Duh. Besides, other universes where we have no idea what kind of shit everyone there has gone through is the perfect opportunity to introduce characters that can actually pose a challenge, but that was squandered.

Exactly, people who have absolutely no influence on the creative direction of this franchise.

I'm gonna try not to be too rude, and I mean no offense, but I also ain't gonna sugarcoat this, that's a stupid-ass response. "Oh, people want an actually good tournament with tense fights? Well they have no say on how it goes, so there!" I mean fucking duh. That adds nothing to the conversation though. Of course we're not making the damn show. The point is we want a quality tournament and not a boring squash match. When universe 7 doesn't appear to be struggling at all, YOU HAVE FAILED.

They use that type of response because there is no arguing it, it's not even a point so you can't argue against it. It's another way they are just dismissing your argument instead of trying to rebuttal, because there is no good explanation that will justify making everyone so weak. In universe explanations of why they are so weak don't make a difference either because that's not the point, the point is there is no struggle at all as you said. I don't see how people can enjoy seeing interesting new characters completely wasted because they are too weak to matter, too weak to make even the weaker U7 fighters struggle, the only explanation I can think of is that their standards are so low that they just don't care anymore.

The character designs are actually really good for the most part, but when you make them that weak you are condemning that character to be pretty much worthless for their entire existence in the show. Yeah it's fine to have a gag character here and there, but not everything can just be a gag. It's almost like the whole tournament is a gag because you have these interesting new characters just immediately wasted because they arbitrarily decided to make them too weak to even make a dent in anyone in U7.

I actually saw people saying Ribrianne had a good fight in the last episode... where 17 and 18 screwed around with her for a few seconds, then when she transformed she was basically two shotted by Android 18 a few seconds later, meanwhile doing absolutely no damage to either Android except rooting Android 18 for two seconds (which she immediately broke free), seems a bit delusional to call that a good fight IMO, but if they enjoy that good for them.

[TheOne]

Exactly, people who have absolutely no influence on the creative direction of this franchise.

I'm gonna try not to be too rude, and I mean no offense, but I also ain't gonna sugarcoat this, that's a stupid-ass response. "Oh, people want an actually good tournament with tense fights? Well they have no say on how it goes, so there!" I mean fucking duh. That adds nothing to the conversation though. Of course we're not making the damn show. The point is we want a quality tournament and not a boring squash match. When universe 7 doesn't appear to be struggling at all, YOU HAVE FAILED.

They use that type of response because there is no arguing it, it's not even a point so you can't argue against it. It's another way they are just dismissing your argument instead of trying to rebuttal, because there is no good explanation that will justify making everyone so weak. In universe explanations of why they are so weak don't make a difference either because that's not the point, the point is there is no struggle at all as you said. I don't see how people can enjoy seeing interesting new characters completely wasted because they are too weak to matter, too weak to make even the weaker U7 fighters struggle, the only explanation I can think of is that their standards are so low that they just don't care anymore.

Please explain to me why they’re having a tournament in the first place. Last time I checked, it was because there were too many universes and they need to put some on the chopping block. Which ones you ask? THE WEAKEST UNIVERSES. Why in the world do you guys think you’ll have a bunch of Hits and Gokus throughout all of the weak universes? There are not too many as you can see which makes sense.

People also forget that none of the current fighters should even be here. The only reason Goku and company are around today is because Trunks changed the future. If this tournament was going to happen in the original timeline, the only beings that would be here would essentially be Cell and Buu. Assuming Buu didn’t kill Cell.

Yes strength plays a part in mortal levels. We have heard on multiple occasions from Supreme Kais and Gods of Destructions be semi impressed that there were fighters/techniques of this caliber in these universes despite their mortal levels being so low.

The point is, stop complaining so much about the fighters all being “fodder”. Why can’t you all just be glad that the universe you grew up watching was pretty exceptional? They’re the 2nd lowest universe in the tournament and they’re exceeding everyone’s expectations right now by kicking butt.

You want to see U7 really struggle? Why don’t you wait until they meet up with the exempt universes. Apparently that’s where the real fighters are. To sit here and complain about the “lack of action/drama” in a tournament where the weakest fighters are fighting is just...

[Zagacious]

Please explain to me why they’re having a tournament in the first place. Last time I checked, it was because there were too many universes and they need to put some on the chopping block. Which ones you ask? THE WEAKEST UNIVERSES. Why in the world do you guys think you’ll have a bunch of Hits and Gokus throughout all of the weak universes? There are not too many as you can see which makes sense.

People also forget that none of the current fighters should even be here. The only reason Goku and company are around today is because Trunks changed the future. If this tournament was going to happen in the original timeline, the only beings that would be here would essentially be Cell and Buu. Assuming Buu didn’t kill Cell.

Yes strength plays a part in mortal levels. We have heard on multiple occasions from Supreme Kais and Gods of Destructions be semi impressed that there were fighters/techniques of this caliber in these universes despite their mortal levels being so low.

The point is, stop complaining so much about the fighters all being “fodder”. Why can’t you all just be glad that the universe you grew up watching was pretty exceptional? They’re the 2nd lowest universe in the tournament and they’re exceeding everyone’s expectations right now by kicking butt.

You want to see U7 really struggle? Why don’t you wait until they meet up with the exempt universes. Apparently that’s where the real fighters are. To sit here and complain about the “lack of action/drama” in a tournament where the weakest fighters are fighting is just...

You're completely missing the point, and exaggerating to say everyone expects Hits and Gokus just further enforces that you don't get it. You also contradicted your own point by saying these are all the weakest fighters, because on average U7 is far above everyone else to the point most of them don't even have to try, so saying 'they're all weak' is just not true, everyone but U7 is weak. "Pretty exceptional' is an understatement, they are completely dominating everyone except for Jiren. In universe explanations of why they are so weak do not make it any better either, because it's still a fight where there is zero struggle for U7.

Mortal level has barely anything to do with what we are complaining about, and 'stop complaining' isn't a point.

[Bullza]

I'll be honest, I actually thought there'd be far more throwaway fodder characters than there actually are.

I really thought there'd be moments here and there where one character would fire a blast and four or five characters would just go off in one go.

[TheOne]

Please explain to me why they’re having a tournament in the first place. Last time I checked, it was because there were too many universes and they need to put some on the chopping block. Which ones you ask? THE WEAKEST UNIVERSES. Why in the world do you guys think you’ll have a bunch of Hits and Gokus throughout all of the weak universes? There are not too many as you can see which makes sense.

People also forget that none of the current fighters should even be here. The only reason Goku and company are around today is because Trunks changed the future. If this tournament was going to happen in the original timeline, the only beings that would be here would essentially be Cell and Buu. Assuming Buu didn’t kill Cell.

Yes strength plays a part in mortal levels. We have heard on multiple occasions from Supreme Kais and Gods of Destructions be semi impressed that there were fighters/techniques of this caliber in these universes despite their mortal levels being so low.

The point is, stop complaining so much about the fighters all being “fodder”. Why can’t you all just be glad that the universe you grew up watching was pretty exceptional? They’re the 2nd lowest universe in the tournament and they’re exceeding everyone’s expectations right now by kicking butt.

You want to see U7 really struggle? Why don’t you wait until they meet up with the exempt universes. Apparently that’s where the real fighters are. To sit here and complain about the “lack of action/drama” in a tournament where the weakest fighters are fighting is just...

You're completely missing the point, and exaggerating to say everyone expects Hits and Gokus just further enforces that you don't get it. You also contradicted your own point by saying these are all the weakest fighters, because on average U7 is far above everyone else to the point most of them don't even have to try, so saying 'they're all weak' is just not true, everyone but U7 is weak. "Pretty exceptional' is an understatement, they are completely dominating everyone except for Jiren.

How is that contradicting myself? I’m freaking saying that U7 is dominating because they’re exceptional.

This current U7 team shouldn’t even exist. That’s why they’re so OP. 17 and 18 shouldn’t be around. Frieza should be dead as well as Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo etc.You guys are complaining about how weak everyone is and I’m tryig to explain to you that it’s because U7 is so strong due to all the unplanned events with time travel.

Realistically U7 would be just like everyone else if Trunks didn’t come back. The strongest member on the team would be at best Buu and Cell with a bunch of fodder. They probably would’ve been the second ones out.

I’m sick of people complaining about everyone being so weak when it’s the battle between weak universes. I have no idea why U7 is ranked so low or when’s the last time they checked the mortal level, but it has been clear that U7 has been outperforming their expectations since the Champa arc. Which is why I’m sure the grand priest has taken a liking to them.

[TekTheNinja]

Please explain to me why they’re having a tournament in the first place. Last time I checked, it was because there were too many universes and they need to put some on the chopping block. Which ones you ask? THE WEAKEST UNIVERSES. Why in the world do you guys think you’ll have a bunch of Hits and Gokus throughout all of the weak universes? There are not too many as you can see which makes sense.

People also forget that none of the current fighters should even be here. The only reason Goku and company are around today is because Trunks changed the future. If this tournament was going to happen in the original timeline, the only beings that would be here would essentially be Cell and Buu. Assuming Buu didn’t kill Cell.

Yes strength plays a part in mortal levels. We have heard on multiple occasions from Supreme Kais and Gods of Destructions be semi impressed that there were fighters/techniques of this caliber in these universes despite their mortal levels being so low.

The point is, stop complaining so much about the fighters all being “fodder”. Why can’t you all just be glad that the universe you grew up watching was pretty exceptional? They’re the 2nd lowest universe in the tournament and they’re exceeding everyone’s expectations right now by kicking butt.

You want to see U7 really struggle? Why don’t you wait until they meet up with the exempt universes. Apparently that’s where the real fighters are. To sit here and complain about the “lack of action/drama” in a tournament where the weakest fighters are fighting is just...

Whether or not you can make sense of how weak they are, I don't actually give a damn. I care about the arc being fun, and as is, it's not fun in this particular aspect.
You're completely missing the point, and exaggerating to say everyone expects Hits and Gokus just further enforces that you don't get it. You also contradicted your own point by saying these are all the weakest fighters, because on average U7 is far above everyone else to the point most of them don't even have to try, so saying 'they're all weak' is just not true, everyone but U7 is weak. "Pretty exceptional' is an understatement, they are completely dominating everyone except for Jiren.

How is that contradicting myself? I’m freaking saying that U7 is dominating because they’re exceptional.

This current U7 team shouldn’t even exist. That’s why they’re so OP. 17 and 18 shouldn’t be around. Frieza should be dead as well as Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo etc.You guys are complaining about how weak everyone is and I’m tryig to explain to you that it’s because U7 is so strong due to all the unplanned events with time travel.

Realistically U7 would be just like everyone else if Trunks didn’t come back. The strongest member on the team would be at best Buu and Cell with a bunch of fodder. They probably would’ve been the second ones out.

I’m sick of people complaining about everyone being so weak when it’s the battle between weak universes. I have no idea why U7 is ranked so low or when’s the last time they checked the mortal level, but it has been clear that U7 has been outperforming their expectations since the Champa arc. Which is why I’m sure the grand priest has taken a liking to them.

[TheZFighter]

People who want a tense and entertaining tournament that's more than just a squash match say that. Duh. Besides, other universes where we have no idea what kind of shit everyone there has gone through is the perfect opportunity to introduce characters that can actually pose a challenge, but that was squandered.

Exactly, people who have absolutely no influence on the creative direction of this franchise.

I'm gonna try not to be too rude, and I mean no offense, but I also ain't gonna sugarcoat this, that's a stupid-ass response. "Oh, people want an actually good tournament with tense fights? Well they have no say on how it goes, so there!" I mean fucking duh. That adds nothing to the conversation though. Of course we're not making the damn show. The point is we want a quality tournament and not a boring squash match. When universe 7 doesn't appear to be struggling at all, YOU HAVE FAILED.

The tournament isn't over yet, and I've enjoyed it so far.

[TheZFighter]

I'll be honest, I actually thought there'd be far more throwaway fodder characters than there actually are.

I really thought there'd be moments here and there where one character would fire a blast and four or five characters would just go off in one go.

I wouldn't ever use the word "fodder" personally, but throwaway is a good way of putting it. I agree, I was fully expecting there to be a lot more "throwaway characters" than there has been.

[TheZFighter]

Please explain to me why they’re having a tournament in the first place. Last time I checked, it was because there were too many universes and they need to put some on the chopping block. Which ones you ask? THE WEAKEST UNIVERSES. Why in the world do you guys think you’ll have a bunch of Hits and Gokus throughout all of the weak universes? There are not too many as you can see which makes sense.

People also forget that none of the current fighters should even be here. The only reason Goku and company are around today is because Trunks changed the future. If this tournament was going to happen in the original timeline, the only beings that would be here would essentially be Cell and Buu. Assuming Buu didn’t kill Cell.

Yes strength plays a part in mortal levels. We have heard on multiple occasions from Supreme Kais and Gods of Destructions be semi impressed that there were fighters/techniques of this caliber in these universes despite their mortal levels being so low.

The point is, stop complaining so much about the fighters all being “fodder”. Why can’t you all just be glad that the universe you grew up watching was pretty exceptional? They’re the 2nd lowest universe in the tournament and they’re exceeding everyone’s expectations right now by kicking butt.

You want to see U7 really struggle? Why don’t you wait until they meet up with the exempt universes. Apparently that’s where the real fighters are. To sit here and complain about the “lack of action/drama” in a tournament where the weakest fighters are fighting is just...

You're completely missing the point, and exaggerating to say everyone expects Hits and Gokus just further enforces that you don't get it. You also contradicted your own point by saying these are all the weakest fighters, because on average U7 is far above everyone else to the point most of them don't even have to try, so saying 'they're all weak' is just not true, everyone but U7 is weak. "Pretty exceptional' is an understatement, they are completely dominating everyone except for Jiren.

How is that contradicting myself? I’m freaking saying that U7 is dominating because they’re exceptional.

This current U7 team shouldn’t even exist. That’s why they’re so OP. 17 and 18 shouldn’t be around. Frieza should be dead as well as Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo etc.You guys are complaining about how weak everyone is and I’m tryig to explain to you that it’s because U7 is so strong due to all the unplanned events with time travel.

Realistically U7 would be just like everyone else if Trunks didn’t come back. The strongest member on the team would be at best Buu and Cell with a bunch of fodder. They probably would’ve been the second ones out.

I’m sick of people complaining about everyone being so weak when it’s the battle between weak universes. I have no idea why U7 is ranked so low or when’s the last time they checked the mortal level, but it has been clear that U7 has been outperforming their expectations since the Champa arc. Which is why I’m sure the grand priest has taken a liking to them.

Only person talking sense. I appreciate your clear thought.

[TheZFighter]

To be fair most of the fighters seem to range around SSJ1-SSJ2 power.

Which means the main cast up to the end of the Cell saga would have had a difficult time taking some characters down. The mere fact that the Trio de Dangers were as strong as Perfect Cell or more says a lot. That means our Universe 7 would have been screwed if the TOP took place during the Cell saga era, or even early Buu saga.

Yes. "Total fodder" is a total exaggeration.

But that doesn't matter now. At this point in the series that kind of power is the power of total fodder. Just like how if Goku fought King Piccolo and his minions now, they would be total fodder, but back then they weren't. It's all relative.

You might as well just say "characters now are older than they were in the King Piccolo Saga".

[Zagacious]

Yes. "Total fodder" is a total exaggeration.

But that doesn't matter now. At this point in the series that kind of power is the power of total fodder. Just like how if Goku fought King Piccolo and his minions now, they would be total fodder, but back then they weren't. It's all relative.

You might as well just say "characters now are older than they were in the King Piccolo Saga".

That's not even close to what he said, and not relevant either. That's fine if you don't care about power scaling, but it is a thing in this show and it stretches beyond just numbers in a way that affects the story. Not one person has responded to the real problem we are complaining about, that it's not exciting to watch U7 grind through enemies who have absolutely no chance of winning. Coming up with explanations about why they are so weak does not make that okay.

Also, if you're going to make 4 posts with only about a sentence each, you should probably combine them. Especially when you're not really adding anything besides "Your points are good because I agree with them"

[GodKaio-Ken]

You're completely missing the point, and exaggerating to say everyone expects Hits and Gokus just further enforces that you don't get it. You also contradicted your own point by saying these are all the weakest fighters, because on average U7 is far above everyone else to the point most of them don't even have to try, so saying 'they're all weak' is just not true, everyone but U7 is weak. "Pretty exceptional' is an understatement, they are completely dominating everyone except for Jiren.

How is that contradicting myself? I’m freaking saying that U7 is dominating because they’re exceptional.

This current U7 team shouldn’t even exist. That’s why they’re so OP. 17 and 18 shouldn’t be around. Frieza should be dead as well as Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo etc.You guys are complaining about how weak everyone is and I’m tryig to explain to you that it’s because U7 is so strong due to all the unplanned events with time travel.

Realistically U7 would be just like everyone else if Trunks didn’t come back. The strongest member on the team would be at best Buu and Cell with a bunch of fodder. They probably would’ve been the second ones out.

I’m sick of people complaining about everyone being so weak when it’s the battle between weak universes. I have no idea why U7 is ranked so low or when’s the last time they checked the mortal level, but it has been clear that U7 has been outperforming their expectations since the Champa arc. Which is why I’m sure the grand priest has taken a liking to them.

Only person talking sense. I appreciate your clear thought.

His last paragraph is entirely wrong. Mortal level and weakness aren't the same. Power may play a small role in it but it's certainly not even half of it.

Do people think Zeno is destroying these universe because their martial artists are weak? That would be the implication and we know that isn't the case.

[CJStriker_CBR]

Exactly, people who have absolutely no influence on the creative direction of this franchise.

I'm gonna try not to be too rude, and I mean no offense, but I also ain't gonna sugarcoat this, that's a stupid-ass response. "Oh, people want an actually good tournament with tense fights? Well they have no say on how it goes, so there!" I mean fucking duh. That adds nothing to the conversation though. Of course we're not making the damn show. The point is we want a quality tournament and not a boring squash match. When universe 7 doesn't appear to be struggling at all, YOU HAVE FAILED.

They use that type of response because there is no arguing it, it's not even a point so you can't argue against it. It's another way they are just dismissing your argument instead of trying to rebuttal, because there is no good explanation that will justify making everyone so weak. In universe explanations of why they are so weak don't make a difference either because that's not the point, the point is there is no struggle at all as you said. I don't see how people can enjoy seeing interesting new characters completely wasted because they are too weak to matter, too weak to make even the weaker U7 fighters struggle, the only explanation I can think of is that their standards are so low that they just don't care anymore.

The character designs are actually really good for the most part, but when you make them that weak you are condemning that character to be pretty much worthless for their entire existence in the show. Yeah it's fine to have a gag character here and there, but not everything can just be a gag. It's almost like the whole tournament is a gag because you have these interesting new characters just immediately wasted because they arbitrarily decided to make them too weak to even make a dent in anyone in U7.

I actually saw people saying Ribrianne had a good fight in the last episode... where 17 and 18 screwed around with her for a few seconds, then when she transformed she was basically two shotted by Android 18 a few seconds later, meanwhile doing absolutely no damage to either Android except rooting Android 18 for two seconds (which she immediately broke free), seems a bit delusional to call that a good fight IMO, but if they enjoy that good for them.

I have to agree that in one of my Viewpoints on this after the event of episode 117, that at the present interpretation/definition of the ToP, is has become a letdown in the Fields of Variety of Powerful New Characters being a challenge to U7 or U11.

It seem like at the start of the ToP Toei was building this ideal up and saving their best for the end, hiding secret powerups, combinations, transformations and even characters themselves hiding until the end. But it seems since episode 107 and from their on that a whole other directions started to take place I noticed, one I hoped I was wrong about. But it might have even started sooner in episode 101 when 5 pride troopers, 1 being the Hyped U11 General Kahseral being ringed-out in just one episode and a 1 episode fight, my gut sank at that sight and my fear seem to just justified more as time went on, one I hoped to see being proven wrong with better story that rarely came. Up to that point before 101 it seem we would get a few small fry characters ringed out, but the big names would soon shine. However that has been lacking and has gone-down hill since 101.

117 was the end for me in the ToP at this point cause it was not so much Ribrianne losing as it was and no offense to 18's character, but just such a out of nowhere power-up for a character that has not fought seriously since the Buu arc just gaining that much power against a power-ed up Ribrianne that showed a good challenge in her earlier match-ups and they made it looks so easy by the end. 17 I get, but 18 just crystallized Toei's lack of making sense. I just told me Toei right now is not really serious about any of the other universes to make them have their own Supermen and Wonder Women in their ranks.

I still feel an arc of them getting stronger might be in the future and Brianne's development at the end was good, but it was a major letdown that both episode 116 and 117 lost major Fighters that had development; Ribrianne, Rozie, Kale and Caulifla along with Hit and Cabba in episodes before got ringed-out before characters that have had no development from U3 and yet to be seen U4.

They might be saving surprises for them, but it would be a whole lot of work to do that development now and Toei right now does not have a good track record on that.

Again this is not against any character or glory they get, fans of those characters liked it and are good in enjoying that glory.

My point is Toei's writing and flow of the story combine with its confusing ideals of power scaling has made a mess of characters in this, giving random power-ups out of nowhere and making what should be harder battles looks easy for U7, from the Magical Girls to the Pride Troopers, to many have fallen to simply with no sense of tension or real drama.

The Upcoming events from the recent previews of episode 118 just continue this letdown as well.

I don't know what Toei's long-term game-plan is or what they are thinking?! I have another theory that they are saving these characters for a future arc of exploration and training to build them-up. But in an Arc Called the ToP, the fact Toei did not have the brass to make more powerful showing characters or seem to Nerf them from how they where presented earlier in the ToP(Ribrianne), Toei just seems uninspired, un-creative and just plane afraid to make more controversial chooses to challenge fans to have a sense of dread or struggle with this arc concerning U7 right now.

I hope I am wrong and this turns around going forward, but episode 117 was the end right now for me personally on more then just Brianne, but how the story has crystallized since my fears back in episode 101. IMO it is the end of the possibility for any variety of new characters by the finals and an admission Toei was just heading in this direction since episode 101, wasting good characters, concepts and designs for whatever reason to make U7 look better then they needed to, they needed challenge.

[TheOne]

How is that contradicting myself? I’m freaking saying that U7 is dominating because they’re exceptional.

This current U7 team shouldn’t even exist. That’s why they’re so OP. 17 and 18 shouldn’t be around. Frieza should be dead as well as Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo etc.You guys are complaining about how weak everyone is and I’m tryig to explain to you that it’s because U7 is so strong due to all the unplanned events with time travel.

Realistically U7 would be just like everyone else if Trunks didn’t come back. The strongest member on the team would be at best Buu and Cell with a bunch of fodder. They probably would’ve been the second ones out.

I’m sick of people complaining about everyone being so weak when it’s the battle between weak universes. I have no idea why U7 is ranked so low or when’s the last time they checked the mortal level, but it has been clear that U7 has been outperforming their expectations since the Champa arc. Which is why I’m sure the grand priest has taken a liking to them.

Only person talking sense. I appreciate your clear thought.

His last paragraph is entirely wrong. Mortal level and weakness aren't the same. Power may play a small role in it but it's certainly not even half of it.

Do people think Zeno is destroying these universe because their martial artists are weak? That would be the implication and we know that isn't the case.

If you don’t see that strength plays a part in calculating mortal level, then I don’t foresee us having a productive conversation.

And TheZFighter, I appreciate that bro! Not too many people on here like that lol

[TheZFighter]

But that doesn't matter now. At this point in the series that kind of power is the power of total fodder. Just like how if Goku fought King Piccolo and his minions now, they would be total fodder, but back then they weren't. It's all relative.

You might as well just say "characters now are older than they were in the King Piccolo Saga".

That's not even close to what he said, and not relevant either. That's fine if you don't care about power scaling, but it is a thing in this show and it stretches beyond just numbers in a way that affects the story. Not one person has responded to the real problem we are complaining about, that it's not exciting to watch U7 grind through enemies who have absolutely no chance of winning. Coming up with explanations about why they are so weak does not make that okay.

Also, if you're going to make 4 posts with only about a sentence each, you should probably combine them. Especially when you're not really adding anything besides "Your points are good because I agree with them"

Maybe this is my problem. I'm the first to complain if I don't like something. For example, I've always hated GT, but personally, I don't really see what there has been to not enjoy so far. I came into this, an 80 competitor, 48-odd minute tournament, fully expecting the vast majority of the competitors to get blown away and certain universes to do better than others. "TheOne" came up with a good explanation as to why U7 have done so well; because they're phenomenal. If I was some sort of "head coach" and I was sending a team that included Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, Gohan, Android 17, Piccolo and Android 18 into a tournament, I'd fully expect to do pretty well. In fact, I'd expect to dominate. The fact that they have done so well has come as no surprise to me. These are the "weakest" universes, so literally no part of me expected a number of "SSG-level fighters". A few at most - if that. They've got 48-odd minutes to dispose of the best part of 80 fighters, of course the majority were going to be blown away.

From my point of view; I was initially skeptical about Master Roshi's call up but I have fully enjoyed seeing on the front line again for (what may be) his final hurrah in a number of episodes dedicated to him. Tien has always been one of my favourite characters and I got to see him back on the front line, even making two eliminations, particularly taking out the sniper. Likewise, Krillin back on the front line making three eliminations. I was thrilled when I saw Android 17 was making a comeback, he's done well and I thought him stopping the girls' transformation was hilarious. Its been good seeing 18 fighting again, and her and 17 teaming up has been a highlight. Frieza's return came out of nowhere and I've enjoyed his role, notably his relationship with the Saiyans and the betrayal of Frost was great. Gohan has always been a character I've had issues with, but "Ultimate Gohan" was the only time I've really liked the character, so it has been good seeing him reach that level again, plus the locket moment was great, as well as his continuing relationship with Piccolo (one of the highlights of Z). I've enjoyed Vegeta's continuing relationship with Cabba and want to see more of it in the future. As usual Goku has been the main man and I've loved seeing him involved in so many confrontations in a short space of time. I've been a "Saiyan transformation skeptic" for years and years now but I really like UI. I love Jiren and can't wait for more of him, I like the idea of the Pride Troopers as well. I've even found Ribrianne entertaining (though that may be because I know others dislike her so much), and surprisingly powerful. I've seen a large number of interesting, random and different competitors we wouldn't see in normal circumstances. I quite like that about the Otherworld tournament filler arc as well. Are we going to see more of them? Probably not, but that is the nature of Dragon Ball, they're essentially no different to a Bacterian, a Pamput or a Pintar.

I've followed this franchise religiously since the 90s and this saga really brings out my nostalgic side.

Of course, there are aspects I haven't enjoyed; I have absolutely no time for or interest in Kale and Caulifa, and they've had a lot of screen time, and I've always been a big Hit fan so I was disappointed we didn't see more from him.

Have I enjoyed it and found it exciting? Yes, because I'm seeing a number of characters I've grown up with and respond to doing well on a bigger stage, plus it isn't over yet and we don't know what is going to come next!

[Polyphase Avatron]

u6,u7 and u11 are the only universes with really strong fighters. the other 5 are vast majority fodder. Maji Kayo aside and maybe the bugs are strong ( i doubt it, probably just stealth). ribrianne was the ace of u2 and she lost to an injured 18 who is probably 7th best on u7. Everyone except maji kayo from u3 is a total joke. u9 and u10 showed absolutely nothing and u4 only has two invisibly bugs and shantsa ( who maybe they surprise us and make him canon janemba). How is it that toei/toriyama didn't think to put atleast one ssg level fighter in every universe? these are supposed to be the best of the best no?

Ribrianne did well against SSJ Vegeta, took hits from SSJB Goku, and required both 18 and a much stronger 17 to take down. She was also the first one to ever break 17's barrier IIRC.

Kakunsa kept up with 17 for a while.

Rosie's technique was trouble for Goku to figure out and she also kept up with 17.

Jimeze was able to get an advantage over Gohan, at least in base form.

Prum had the ability to absorb and reflect any ki attack.

Hermila's sniper attacks were incredibly dangerous.

Katopesla was able to outspeed 18.

Borareta was able to keep up with base Gohan.

Roshi stated Ganos could have become a threat to Goku and Vegeta had he been allowed to keep improving.

He also stated that many of the stronger fighters on his team might not have been able to deal with Dercori's tricky attacks.

Shosa was able to keep up with 18.

Monna was superior to SSJ Cabba and he needed to attain SSJ2 to beat her.

Goku needed to go SSJB to break Nink's grip

Majora also kept up with 18.

Bergamo required Goku to use SSJB Kaio-ken to defeat. He just jobbed majorly in the ToP. But still Goku and Vegeta had to combine their attacks in SSJB to defeat him and his brothers.

Basil was able to nearly defeat Mr. Buu.

Lavenda was able to nearly defeat Gohan.

Hyssop, Hop, and Oregano caused trouble to base Vegeta.

Chappil took hits from base Goku with no damage.

Napapa blocked many of Basil's attacks, which are comparable to Fat Buu's power.

Obuni can use ki illusions like Hit and was beating Gohan, even keeping up with him in Mystic form.

[Lord Beerus]

u6,u7 and u11 are the only universes with really strong fighters. the other 5 are vast majority fodder. Maji Kayo aside and maybe the bugs are strong ( i doubt it, probably just stealth). ribrianne was the ace of u2 and she lost to an injured 18 who is probably 7th best on u7. Everyone except maji kayo from u3 is a total joke. u9 and u10 showed absolutely nothing and u4 only has two invisibly bugs and shantsa ( who maybe they surprise us and make him canon janemba). How is it that toei/toriyama didn't think to put atleast one ssg level fighter in every universe? these are supposed to be the best of the best no?

Ribrianne did well against SSJ Vegeta, took hits from SSJB Goku, and required both 18 and a much stronger 17 to take down. She was also the first one to ever break 17's barrier IIRC.

Kakunsa kept up with 17 for a while.

Rosie's technique was trouble for Goku to figure out and she also kept up with 17.

Jimeze was able to get an advantage over Gohan, at least in base form.

Prum had the ability to absorb and reflect any ki attack.

Hermila's sniper attacks were incredibly dangerous.

Katopesla was able to outspeed 18.

Borareta was able to keep up with base Gohan.

Roshi stated Ganos could have become a threat to Goku and Vegeta had he been allowed to keep improving.

He also stated that many of the stronger fighters on his team might not have been able to deal with Dercori's tricky attacks.

Shosa was able to keep up with 18.

Monna was superior to SSJ Cabba and he needed to attain SSJ2 to beat her.

Goku needed to go SSJB to break Nink's grip

Majora also kept up with 18.

Bergamo required Goku to use SSJB Kaio-ken to defeat. He just jobbed majorly in the ToP. But still Goku and Vegeta had to combine their attacks in SSJB to defeat him and his brothers.

Basil was able to nearly defeat Mr. Buu.

Lavenda was able to nearly defeat Gohan.

Hyssop, Hop, and Oregano caused trouble to base Vegeta.

Chappil took hits from base Goku with no damage.

Napapa blocked many of Basil's attacks, which are comparable to Fat Buu's power.

Obuni can use ki illusions like Hit and was beating Gohan, even keeping up with him in Mystic form.

Considering the amount of time the other Hakaishin and Kaioshin's from the other universes had to gather their strongest warriors in their respective universes, as well as the superficial attitude and lack of understanding some of them displayed, it's quite frankly a miracle that some of fighters from the other universes have been able to put up a fight as well as they have against the heavy hitters from universes 6, 7 and 11. I was expecting half of fighters to be eliminated after only like 10 episodes. So I'm very pleasantly surprised they've lasted this long.

[TekTheNinja]

You might as well just say "characters now are older than they were in the King Piccolo Saga".

That's not even close to what he said, and not relevant either. That's fine if you don't care about power scaling, but it is a thing in this show and it stretches beyond just numbers in a way that affects the story. Not one person has responded to the real problem we are complaining about, that it's not exciting to watch U7 grind through enemies who have absolutely no chance of winning. Coming up with explanations about why they are so weak does not make that okay.

Also, if you're going to make 4 posts with only about a sentence each, you should probably combine them. Especially when you're not really adding anything besides "Your points are good because I agree with them"

Maybe this is my problem. I'm the first to complain if I don't like something. For example, I've always hated GT, but personally, I don't really see what there has been to not enjoy so far. I came into this, an 80 competitor, 48-odd minute tournament, fully expecting the vast majority of the competitors to get blown away and certain universes to do better than others. "TheOne" came up with a good explanation as to why U7 have done so well; because they're phenomenal. If I was some sort of "head coach" and I was sending a team that included Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, Gohan, Android 17, Piccolo and Android 18 into a tournament, I'd fully expect to do pretty well. In fact, I'd expect to dominate. The fact that they have done so well has come as no surprise to me. These are the "weakest" universes, so literally no part of me expected a number of "SSG-level fighters". A few at most - if that. They've got 48-odd minutes to dispose of the best part of 80 fighters, of course the majority were going to be blown away.

From my point of view; I was initially skeptical about Master Roshi's call up but I have fully enjoyed seeing on the front line again for (what may be) his final hurrah in a number of episodes dedicated to him. Tien has always been one of my favourite characters and I got to see him back on the front line, even making two eliminations, particularly taking out the sniper. Likewise, Krillin back on the front line making three eliminations. I was thrilled when I saw Android 17 was making a comeback, he's done well and I thought him stopping the girls' transformation was hilarious. Its been good seeing 18 fighting again, and her and 17 teaming up has been a highlight. Frieza's return came out of nowhere and I've enjoyed his role, notably his relationship with the Saiyans and the betrayal of Frost was great. Gohan has always been a character I've had issues with, but "Ultimate Gohan" was the only time I've really liked the character, so it has been good seeing him reach that level again, plus the locket moment was great, as well as his continuing relationship with Piccolo (one of the highlights of Z). I've enjoyed Vegeta's continuing relationship with Cabba and want to see more of it in the future. As usual Goku has been the main man and I've loved seeing him involved in so many confrontations in a short space of time. I've been a "Saiyan transformation skeptic" for years and years now but I really like UI. I love Jiren and can't wait for more of him, I like the idea of the Pride Troopers as well. I've even found Ribrianne entertaining (though that may be because I know others dislike her so much), and surprisingly powerful. I've seen a large number of interesting, random and different competitors we wouldn't see in normal circumstances. I quite like that about the Otherworld tournament filler arc as well. Are we going to see more of them? Probably not, but that is the nature of Dragon Ball, they're essentially no different to a Bacterian, a Pamput or a Pintar.

I've followed this franchise religiously since the 90s and this saga really brings out my nostalgic side.

Of course, there are aspects I haven't enjoyed; I have absolutely no time for or interest in Kale and Caulifa, and they've had a lot of screen time, and I've always been a big Hit fan so I was disappointed we didn't see more from him.

Have I enjoyed it and found it exciting? Yes, because I'm seeing a number of characters I've grown up with and respond to doing well on a bigger stage, plus it isn't over yet and we don't know what is going to come next!

Except despite universe 7 dominating, it's mostly just Goku and Vegeta doing so. You praise things like Tenshinhan in the front lines, but he was infamously wasted and totally shat on in this arc. So while not posing Goku any real challenge, the enemy fighters don't give the weaker universe 7 fighters much time to shine either.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Only person talking sense. I appreciate your clear thought.

His last paragraph is entirely wrong. Mortal level and weakness aren't the same. Power may play a small role in it but it's certainly not even half of it.

Do people think Zeno is destroying these universe because their martial artists are weak? That would be the implication and we know that isn't the case.

If you don’t see that strength plays a part in calculating mortal level, then I don’t foresee us having a productive conversation.

And TheZFighter, I appreciate that bro! Not too many people on here like that lol

You mean if someone else is right you avoid discussing It? Also you might want to read what I wrote again. I never said it plays no part.