Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

That's what I said and why I don't like it, Vegeta is always super prideful and super angry, neither of these emotions should factor into his power at all particularly when he was incredibly prideful and angry before and it never did anything for him but now it is. It doesn't work, Gohan's emotions giving him a boost works because Gohan getting murderously angry is the antithesis of his base personality, this is just Vegeta's default being amped up and I don't see why it suddenly matters. Surely having Vegeta calm the fuck down and reach serenity would make infinitely more sense to explain a power up over his pride being boosted.

I don’t see how anger aligns to Vegeta’s usual being. Pure-blooded Saiyans are not that prompted to emotions, unlike the half-blooded ones.

Vegeta's never not angry, any little thing sets him off and Whis even tells him he's got a massive problem trying to relax as opposed to Goku who's more carefree. Having anger and/or pride give Vegeta a power boost is moronic since he's always a nuke waiting to go off.

Vegeta just thinks too much and is pissed off. Anger is a very circumstancial thing.

[pacz360]

What was with Vegeta and Jiren's shocked expressions when Goku turned Super Saiyan Blue? He's done it that many times already. Is that supposed to more powered up Super Saiyan Blue Goku or something?

Also it shows that characters like Pirina, Saonel and Koichiarator aren't anywhere near the level of a possibly suppressed Toppo who was perhaps barely Blue level.

https://imgur.com/LxtaLLH

Leonardo DiCaprio?

How strong would a hypothetical SSJ2 Blue even be? I feel like it would still be weaker than KKx20 Blue, especially considering that SSJ2 is only 2x SSJ

Well the difference between any Super Saiyan Blue 2 wouldn't necessarily be the same kind of gap as Super Saiyan 2. Super Saiyan Blue 2 could be any number higher.

What Vegeta will pull off will more than likely not even be called that. It might put to Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x20 level or maybe even stronger.

I don't see how toppo performance downplays the others
Base Toppo tanked a warped ssjb Kamehameha with at slight bruises at best
Base toppo is a high tier blue level while others are mid to low tiers at best

[freak27]

I feel like theres no justification for Vegeta to increase his powers x20 to compete with a devastating technique like Kaioken which harms the body with its ferocity.

I'm talking about episode 123. Yes he unlocks the SSBlue fully but anything other than a slight boost is a complete asspull.

I mean 20 times stronger just like that?

That could work only if Goku was using x2 Kaioken but for x20 is absolutely, ridiculously amateur writting

COME ON!!!!!!!!!!

[MajinVegetaPD]

I feel like theres no justification for Vegeta to increase his powers x20 to compete with a devastating technique like Kaioken which harms the body with its ferocity.

I'm talking about episode 123. Yes he unlocks the SSBlue fully but anything other than a slight boost is a complete asspull.

I mean 20 times stronger just like that?

That could work only if Goku was using x2 Kaioken but for x20 is absolutely, ridiculously amateur writting

COME ON!!!!!!!!!!

I think you and a lot of other people are missing the boat here. Vegeta was in the ROSAT twice, and he should already be near if not at Goku's SSBx20 already.

Judging from the aura and pupils, this is Vegetas version of UI...I'm leaning towards the offensive side of UI.

[freak27]

I feel like theres no justification for Vegeta to increase his powers x20 to compete with a devastating technique like Kaioken which harms the body with its ferocity.

I'm talking about episode 123. Yes he unlocks the SSBlue fully but anything other than a slight boost is a complete asspull.

I mean 20 times stronger just like that?

That could work only if Goku was using x2 Kaioken but for x20 is absolutely, ridiculously amateur writting

COME ON!!!!!!!!!!

I think you and a lot of other people are missing the boat here. Vegeta was in the ROSAT twice, and he should already be near if not at Goku's SSBx20 already.

Judging from the aura and pupils, this is Vegetas version of UI...I'm leaning towards the offensive side of UI.

I disagree here. Everytime someone got into the ROSAT they came out slightly stronger. No one ever got a new form like ssj1 to ssj2 which was huge and gave them x2 increased power.

But now with little training in the ROSAT a character can gain in his EXISTING form 20 times increased power??

Its like going in as SSJ1 and coming out SSJ1 times 20 which is essentially Beerus level of power(because ssj2 was ssj1 x2 etc)

Which means transformations dont exist now. Vegeta could go into the room back in the Cell games and come out 20 times stronger! Then 1-shot Cell, 1-shot Majin Buu and probably 1-shot Beerus.

Thats why this is amateur writting. Kaioken x20 should be stronger than anything because its a burst of energy for a small amount of time.

I'm genuinly sad

[BWri]

After thinking about, I am now absolutely convinced that Vegeta's powerup will be the anime's version of perfected SSB or whatever it's called in the manga. I say that because SSBKKx10 (and x20) is used by Goku in place of perfected SSB in the anime. SSBKK still doesn't exist in the manga. So I think whatever this is that Vegeta is getting will put him level to SSBKKx20 Goku and both will be level to their perfected SSB forms in the manga.

[Bullza]

I don't see how toppo performance downplays the others
Base Toppo tanked a warped ssjb Kamehameha with at slight bruises at best
Base toppo is a high tier blue level while others are mid to low tiers at best

Well Goku did have him sweating, panting and bruised from his Kamehameha. Toppo did then use his full power in retaliation.

I don't think he put up his guard though for Ultimate Gohan's Kamehameha. So it doesn't look like Gohan is at least on the level of Goku or Vegeta currently.

Though you are right. Super Saiyan Blue has such a huge range now going from Resurrection F saga Blue Vegeta to the latest episode Blue Vegeta that Gohan could fit in there somewhere.

Saying Super Saiyan Blue level is probably too broad a term now.

[TheSaiyanGod]

So what's Vegeta's power in this episode?

He said that Jiren was stronger and faster in the fight against Goku, but he was not specific (he did not say if Jiren was stronger and faster against the Blue Kaioken or UI).
This speech may also have been to provoke Jiren and make him use more power.

Anyway, at the end of the fight, Vegeta managed to get more powerful because of pride, and that surprised Goku himself and even Vermoud.
Vegeta overcame Goku Blue or even more than that? He managed to see through the attacks of Jiren, something that Goku SSB did not.

Jiren also praised the Final Flash (even after banging Genki Dama)

[Zamasu55]

So what's Vegeta's power in this episode?

He said that Jiren was stronger and faster in the fight against Goku, but he was not specific (he did not say if Jiren was stronger and faster against the Blue Kaioken or UI).
This speech may also have been to provoke Jiren and make him use more power.

Anyway, at the end of the fight, Vegeta managed to get more powerful because of pride, and that surprised Goku himself and even Vermoud.
Vegeta overcame Goku Blue or even more than that? He managed to see through the attacks of Jiren, something that Goku SSB did not.

Jiren also praised the Final Flash (even after banging Genki Dama)

No, Jiren was holding back more than he did in those episodes. For once Toei cared to explain something.

[TheSaiyanGod]

So what's Vegeta's power in this episode?

He said that Jiren was stronger and faster in the fight against Goku, but he was not specific (he did not say if Jiren was stronger and faster against the Blue Kaioken or UI).
This speech may also have been to provoke Jiren and make him use more power.

Anyway, at the end of the fight, Vegeta managed to get more powerful because of pride, and that surprised Goku himself and even Vermoud.
Vegeta overcame Goku Blue or even more than that? He managed to see through the attacks of Jiren, something that Goku SSB did not.

Jiren also praised the Final Flash (even after banging Genki Dama)

No, Jiren was holding back more than he did in those episodes. For once Toei cared to explain something.

I guess I did not explain it well.

Yes, Jiren was holding on, that's fact. I meant that this speaks ALSO may have had the purpose of forcing Jiren to use more power (after all, Vegeta wanted to hit the UI), but that does not change the fact that he was using less power than against Goku.

The point is precisely that Vegeta was not specific. Jiren obviously did not use the same amount of power against Goku Blue and UI Goku, so we do not know what moment Vegeta was referring to.

What we do know is that he was able to read Jiren's moves faster than Goku, and that he increased his power at the end of the fight.

[Kenneth La Torre]

So what's Vegeta's power in this episode?

He said that Jiren was stronger and faster in the fight against Goku, but he was not specific (he did not say if Jiren was stronger and faster against the Blue Kaioken or UI).
This speech may also have been to provoke Jiren and make him use more power.

Anyway, at the end of the fight, Vegeta managed to get more powerful because of pride, and that surprised Goku himself and even Vermoud.
Vegeta overcame Goku Blue or even more than that? He managed to see through the attacks of Jiren, something that Goku SSB did not.

Jiren also praised the Final Flash (even after banging Genki Dama)

I'm not sure i concider the words "that wasnt half bad" as praise. But i guess that coming from Jiren, someone who has surpassed the power of a god of destruction, it can be concidered praise... i guess.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So what's Vegeta's power in this episode?

He said that Jiren was stronger and faster in the fight against Goku, but he was not specific (he did not say if Jiren was stronger and faster against the Blue Kaioken or UI).
This speech may also have been to provoke Jiren and make him use more power.

Anyway, at the end of the fight, Vegeta managed to get more powerful because of pride, and that surprised Goku himself and even Vermoud.
Vegeta overcame Goku Blue or even more than that? He managed to see through the attacks of Jiren, something that Goku SSB did not.

Jiren also praised the Final Flash (even after banging Genki Dama)

I'm not sure i concider the words "that wasnt half bad" as praise. But i guess that coming from Jiren, someone who has surpassed the power of a god of destruction, it can be concidered praise... i guess.

We have to remember that the Final Flash is the kind of move that hits above the user's normal level, so this ability has likely been played up more than before, like with Piccolo's Makankkosappo.

The fact that he got any kind of noticeable comment from Jiren is indeed a great feat, especially since Jiren being hundreds of times stronger than Goku or Vegeta in their SSB forms is a low-end power-scaling estimate.

[Kenneth La Torre]

So what's Vegeta's power in this episode?

He said that Jiren was stronger and faster in the fight against Goku, but he was not specific (he did not say if Jiren was stronger and faster against the Blue Kaioken or UI).
This speech may also have been to provoke Jiren and make him use more power.

Anyway, at the end of the fight, Vegeta managed to get more powerful because of pride, and that surprised Goku himself and even Vermoud.
Vegeta overcame Goku Blue or even more than that? He managed to see through the attacks of Jiren, something that Goku SSB did not.

Jiren also praised the Final Flash (even after banging Genki Dama)

I'm not sure i concider the words "that wasnt half bad" as praise. But i guess that coming from Jiren, someone who has surpassed the power of a god of destruction, it can be concidered praise... i guess.

We have to remember that the Final Flash is the kind of move that hits above the user's normal level, so this ability has likely been played up more than before, like with Piccolo's Makankkosappo.

The fact that he got any kind of noticeable comment from Jiren is indeed a great feat, especially since Jiren being hundreds of times stronger than Goku or Vegeta in their SSB forms is a low-end power-scaling estimate.

I dont disagree with you on the final flash. The move has been shown to make vegeta many times stronger than normal.

[pacz360]

I don't see how toppo performance downplays the others
Base Toppo tanked a warped ssjb Kamehameha with at slight bruises at best
Base toppo is a high tier blue level while others are mid to low tiers at best

Well Goku did have him sweating, panting and bruised from his Kamehameha. Toppo did then use his full power in retaliation.

I don't think he put up his guard though for Ultimate Gohan's Kamehameha. So it doesn't look like Gohan is at least on the level of Goku or Vegeta currently.

Though you are right. Super Saiyan Blue has such a huge range now going from Resurrection F saga Blue Vegeta to the latest episode Blue Vegeta that Gohan could fit in there somewhere.

Saying Super Saiyan Blue level is probably too broad a term now.

That's what I mean
Ssjb has a huge range power going from ROF blue levels to,U6,black saga blue levels
U3 mecha,u6 nameks,etc could fit around those levels at the least even they weaker than current blue level top tier

[Hugo Boss]

So what's Vegeta's power in this episode?

He said that Jiren was stronger and faster in the fight against Goku, but he was not specific (he did not say if Jiren was stronger and faster against the Blue Kaioken or UI).
This speech may also have been to provoke Jiren and make him use more power.

Anyway, at the end of the fight, Vegeta managed to get more powerful because of pride, and that surprised Goku himself and even Vermoud.
Vegeta overcame Goku Blue or even more than that? He managed to see through the attacks of Jiren, something that Goku SSB did not.

Jiren also praised the Final Flash (even after banging Genki Dama)

No, Jiren was holding back more than he did in those episodes. For once Toei cared to explain something.

I guess I did not explain it well.

Yes, Jiren was holding on, that's fact. I meant that this speaks ALSO may have had the purpose of forcing Jiren to use more power (after all, Vegeta wanted to hit the UI), but that does not change the fact that he was using less power than against Goku.

The point is precisely that Vegeta was not specific. Jiren obviously did not use the same amount of power against Goku Blue and UI Goku, so we do not know what moment Vegeta was referring to.

What we do know is that he was able to read Jiren's moves faster than Goku, and that he increased his power at the end of the fight.

I think Vegeta is referring to the round one of Goku vs. Jiren, which were the two episodes special. When they were about to start the round two, Vegeta interrupted.

[Miracles]

It's only been 39 minutes...Jiren and Goku only had one fight. Blue and UI count as round 1...As Goku just stated this episode that this is round 2!

[majinwarman]

It's cool, I'm not putting any stock in it either way. It is or it isn't. Will be fun to see what the hell it is next week.

I don't understand why people want new forms for everyone. Just give it time and it will happen later in another arc. It doesn't make sense to me at all from a storypoint of view.

I don't care for new forms either, because they butcher the power scale needlessly, but in the grand scheme of things they'll likely want to give Vegeta something since Goku now has KKx20 and UI which aren't really forms, but two things Vegeta doesn't really have. I'd enjoyed a new technique more than anything.

A new technique is fine for me. But, no new forms for this part of the arc. It's just getting too much at this point.

[majinwarman]

I believe the new ending was just showing Blue Vegeta. I don't think he's going to get a new form yet. But, if he does then I wouldn't mind it at all.

Goku also literally says during the NEP that Vegeta has achieved a new form, and Blue Vegeta in the NEP has darker blue hair and aura than Goku's Blue does.

Actually what he said was, "Vegeta awakens to an amazing power beyond Super Saiyan Blue'. Not that he got a new form specifically.

That's what I said but no one believed me.

[Jigurashi]

Where would I put Vegeta? It's hard. For most of the episode SSB Goku > SSB Vegeta as SSB Goku actually made Jiren react and fight him, Vegeta could not. Vegeta does well at one point against Jiren due to a) reading his movements. Which he only managed to do because Goku saved him from being blasted. And b) Vegeta said Jiren was using more power against Goku. Meaning Jiren was more suppressed against Vegeta than Goku.

Afterwards, Vegeta gets bodied by Jiren for the rest of the fight and he gets sent back to base form by the same blast that Jiren used on Goku in 109. Difference is Goku wasn't knocked back into Base, which would make Goku's durability > Vegeta as well. Then Vegeta gets a power up and the only thing we see him do with it is the Final Flash, which gets tanked by Jiren so we have no real way of pinning down how strong current Vegeta is. Made worse by the fact that he's getting a new form this Saturday so we likely won't ever get an accurate reading of how strong he is currently.

Vegeta's new power up I'm expecting to put him on par with SSBKK Goku (whatever multiplier Goku is using).

[TheSaiyanGod]

Where would I put Vegeta? It's hard. For most of the episode SSB Goku > SSB Vegeta as SSB Goku actually made Jiren react and fight him, Vegeta could not. Vegeta does well at one point against Jiren due to a) reading his movements. Which he only managed to do because Goku saved him from being blasted. And b) Vegeta said Jiren was using more power against Goku. Meaning Jiren was more suppressed against Vegeta than Goku.

Afterwards, Vegeta gets bodied by Jiren for the rest of the fight and he gets sent back to base form by the same blast that Jiren used on Goku in 109. Difference is Goku wasn't knocked back into Base, which would make Goku's durability > Vegeta as well. Then Vegeta gets a power up and the only thing we see him do with it is the Final Flash, which gets tanked by Jiren so we have no real way of pinning down how strong current Vegeta is. Made worse by the fact that he's getting a new form this Saturday so we likely won't ever get an accurate reading of how strong he is currently.

Vegeta's new power up I'm expecting to put him on par with SSBKK Goku (whatever multiplier Goku is using).

In fact, Goku with Blue would have been knocked over by Jiren. He only managed to save himself when he used the Kaioken to hold onto the edge of the arena. Not to mention that the attack did not explode in him.
Just at the beginning Vegeta's attacks had no effect on Jiren, and it was because of his Ki barrier (later, it was broken by Vegeta himself, and surprised not only Jiren, but Goku and everyone who was watching ). Even before this barrier was broken, Jiren needed to react to all Vegeta attacks, just as he did with Goku's attacks

Vegeta managed to stop Jiren's attack before reaching the edge of the arena and resisted his outburst. Soon after, he becomes SSB again and gets even stronger (judging by the surprise of Goku and the Gods, at that moment Vegeta had at least surpassed SSB Goku)