Trunks SSRage Vs Vegeta Beyond Blue - What is the reason for this comparison?

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Re: Trunks SSRage Vs Vegeta Beyond Blue - What is the reason for this comparison?

Post by BWri » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:57 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: About the manga, I agree. There Vegeta is actually treated so much better than in the anime.
I like how he created or at least perfected on the basis of the hard training the dynamics of switching between SSG and SSB. It really seems that he thought of a strategy to defeat Black, not just increase his brute power.
Despite being overtaken by Goku in the FT saga, few chapters later he equals his rival dominating the SSB in the same way. While in the anime, he most of the time was behind because of the Kaioken (which also created several confusions in the energy scale).
That and Vegeta got a baller new attack in the manga. I'm a big fan of Gamma Burst Flash. I need to see it in the anime. With how wide it was in the manga, I think he could've taken out half the ToP fighters with that attack alone.
And I also agree that Trunks had a great motivation to get a new transformation, the point is that this was not built throughout the saga. TOEI could simply have Trunks train with Whis or at least a few months with Vegeta on RoSaT, but she decided to give Trunks an insane power up without any proper training, and no promotion of any kind before. The power up felt much more forced, after all, Trunks SSJ2 seemed a nuisance in the fight against Black.
Agreed. I just don't understand why Vegeta never took him inside the RoSaT. They trained anyway. Why not get thousands of times the amount of training?
And I do not think that just using Kyabe as motivation is a bad thing.
Vegeta had all his race extinct by Freeza. To know that in another universe there existed a planet full of good Saiyans who fight for justice must have been very rewarding for him, basically as if he could have contact again with someone of the same blood (outside Goku and his sons) and had his whole race brought back. He saw this in Kyabe, so much so that he decided to train him in the middle of the tournament and taught the SSJ to him (Vegeta would not do that to anyone). He also wanted to meet Kyabe's Planet and that was a promise.

Now in the tournament, Vegeta promised that he would resurrect Kyabe to fulfill his promise. And with the death of Kyabe himself, it has become a huge burden for Vegeta to carry, a promise he can not simply ignore. So there really is a strong relationship between the two, and this has been worked out since the Champa tournament, reinforced on EP 112 and used as motivation for Vegeta to get stronger.
I kinda feel this way too, but most of what you said comes down to interpretation. It simply isn't shown in the writing that these two have developed such a bond. They barely talk, barely interact, and they've simply made Cabba a Vegeta fanboy and Vegeta a begrudging old master who has taken an interest in Cabba. The connection is no where near Piccolo and Gohan was in Z and it needs to be for this power up to work. I'm not saying I don't like Vegeta and Cabba. I'm just saying they needed more time to build this dynamic and could've used this tourney to do so. Instead, both Geets and Cabba have had limited screen time.

What I do feel, is some of what you said. Vegeta has honor and he feels a connection, maybe fatherly but definitely as a Sensei, towards Cabba. He made a promise and he wants to keep it.
Vegeta also trained enough to get a power up at that level, so it's no exaggeration that he got so strong (as opposed to future Trunks). The explanation about him '' breaking the wall '' just means that something like that happened when Goku got the UI, he went beyond his limit, unlocking a hidden potential in his body.
I am starting to feel that Saiyans get the transformations they need once they reach a certain power threshold. The anime seems to be showing us that they can somewhat control the transformations they get based on what they need and the techniques, ki types, wants, needs, and powers they're using.
On the visual, I also think it's a matter of preference. I like the aura of the SSJ Rage Trunks, but I prefer the aura of Vegeta's new '' Blue '', it's something more detailed and visually more beautiful. The pupils were also something to really differentiate this form from the others
It's all preference, I'll admit. I never liked SSB except for the aura. I like the darker color of Vegeta's new form, but now I don't like the aura lol. I also think it's too much of one color. Vegeta needs his black armor, because now he just looks like a weird buff Sonic the Hedgehog to me and its making me uncomfortable when he sparkles and stares at the screen with those kawai eyes :? .
About Kaioken, we did not see Goku at any point even hint at combining this technique with Blue. He trained with Whis and Vegeta on RoSaT for years, and both Whis and Vegeta neither knew what he was planning. How?
He also says that the chance of this combination working is 10%, but conveniently, it just works.
There's some plot holes to it, I agree. People seem to be able to sense energy only when the plot demands as it doesn't make any sense that no one knew Trunks and Goten could go Super Saiyan if the boys had used it before. At the very least Piccolo and Vegeta should have known. But outside of that, because KK has always existed it never felt like it came out of nowhere. And it makes a strange sort of sense that you can combine them. One is a godly technique and the other is a transformation using god ki. But I have to admit, I'd have loved to see Goku spout of those percentages of success and then just spontaneously combust in a blaze of failure. That would've made that arc more enjoyable for me. But I did really enjoy SSBKK in that arc.
Then the Kaioken is set aside and the justification was a kind of Ki disease.
Goku fought several battles against Black and Zamasu, almost died, had to return to the past and never used the Kaioken (this gave the impression that the technique was not in the script of Toriyama and if it were used by TOEI, could simply beat Black and Zamasu very more quickly).
However, suddenly Goku uses against Zamasu, with no apparent training to master. In the next saga, he simply can use the technique freely without any wear and tear. So overall this was always very strange in anime
I have no doubt that it's a Toei only thing. They even had Goku combine KK with SSJ in the Afterlife tournament in DBZ. Goku called it the Super Kaioken. It was filler, so he obviously never used it again, leaving those of us who didn't know what filler was to scratch our heads. And yes, I had to use headcanon to explain why he mastered it so easily. And the headcanon makes sense, considering Saiyans adapt to stuff so quickly, but yeah, still poor writing.
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Re: Trunks SSRage Vs Vegeta Beyond Blue - What is the reason for this comparison?

Post by Kaiosama » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:26 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Kaiosama wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:Well, Vegeta's new transformation has been getting hatred, and some people even compare the context of this transformation with the context of Trunks' SSJ Rage transformation.
But why do they compare? Vegeta's new form felt a little rushed and appeared abruptly, yes. But it does not even compare to the transformation of Trunks

Trunks' transformation into SSJ Rage really was TOTALLY sudden.
He had no training whatsoever to reach a divine level, he gave no indication that he would get a new transformation, we had ABSOLUTELY no explanation for his new transformation, And he received a power up of probably much more than 20x (Basically, he achieved a power similar to Blue without any explanation)
Vegeta has almost 3 whole sagas with only Blue, even training hard. He trained in RoSaT before going to the tournament (actually everyone expected him to show something new from that training), his motivation to reach this new form is being shown from the beginning of the tournament. That is his desire to get the SDB and his other motivation was the promise with Kyabe, shown in EP 112 (that is, it has been worked on several episodes)
In the preview of EP 123 it had already been stated that it would get a new shape, a recent synopsis indicated that (in the case of Trunks, not even the preview indicated something), then we already knew that would happen.

Yes, it was also sudden, but you can not compare. Daishinkan, Piccolo and Kuririn still explained a bit about Vegeta's new form.
With Trunks none of this happened.

Edit: Another example unrelated to the transformation of Trunks is the Kaioken.

All this difference of power between Goku and Vegeta happened because of the Kaioken.
Kaioken did not get any promotion at all, so much so that everyone was surprised when Goku combined SSB and Kaioken in the Champa tournament. Why do not people complain about it?
We had a brief explanation for the SSB + KK just as we had a brief explanation for Vegeta's new form.

any people even thought that SSB Kaioken would no longer be used by Goku, after all this caused a kind of Ki-related disease and hurt him. SSB Kaioken was a long time off screen and only returned later (and probably not a creation of Toriyama). TOEI is probably just trying to lessen that difference in strength between Goku and Vegeta because of it.
Because both forms came out of nowhere and feel forced in order to make both characters more relevant power-wise. Vegeta was significantly weaker than Goku before he got this transformation (much like Trunks was compared to Goku and Vegeta) and this transformation allows him to fight on par with KKX20 Goku. Once Goku is able to master UI and access it at will, the gap between the two will be significant once again (as it should be). This is just a contrived plot device because of what's going on with Jiren right now. It also appeases Trunks and Vegeta fans and will help sell more merch. Knowing this makes it even more annoying IMO :roll:
Why forced? you could say that this would not be the best time to present the transformation, but Vegeta has been training enough for years (basically, almost 3 whole sagas after getting Blue), so he's certainly already able to get a power up at that level.
It would be forced if it were a power up that was not commensurate with the potential of the character or his level of training, as was the case with Trunks (potential he had, not training)
Basically, all this was because TOEI wanted to invent the Blue Kaioken and generate even more confusion in the power scale (Blue Kaioken itself also came out of nowhere but you're not complaining)

And you say '' Goku will dominate the UI and continue superior ''. Now, it just seems to me that you are unable to accept that Vegeta can get a power up and wants at all costs that Goku is untouchable.

Some Goku fans are totally annoying because they are not able to argue normally. Other users who disagreed with me at least showed some arguments.
I did show my arguments. You just don't like or agree with them because you're biased as a Vegeta fan. You're doing the exact same thing you claim that I'm doing. :roll: I don't have to be able to accept or not accept a power-up for Vegeta and be worried that he's going to touch or surpass Goku because the narrative dictates that Vegeta will always be second fiddle to Goku and has for the last 28 years. That's his purpose as a SUPPORTING character and no amount of power-ups will ever matter. Again that's the purpose of his character and it's irritating when Vegeta fans think he deserves anything when he's not the main character and then whine that Toyriama and Toei mistreat him all the time. He wrote the character and that's clearly his intention for him, so I'm sorry you don't agree with the role of a character HE created.

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Re: Trunks SSRage Vs Vegeta Beyond Blue - What is the reason for this comparison?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:40 am

BWri wrote: That and Vegeta got a baller new attack in the manga. I'm a big fan of Gamma Burst Flash. I need to see it in the anime. With how wide it was in the manga, I think he could've taken out half the ToP fighters with that attack alone.
Yes, Vegeta managed to completely disintegrate two Merged Zamasu (in a direct fight he could not even touch him). It really is a very powerful attack
Agreed. I just don't understand why Vegeta never took him inside the RoSaT. They trained anyway. Why not get thousands of times the amount of training?
Yes, Vegeta could have get this transformation in RoSaT, after all, he trained there several times during DBS. And then, he would show her during the ToP (also in the fight against Jiren). Getting him to train there for apparently having no satisfactory results is disappointing, it seems that TOEI only does this for us to know that he is training, or else it only increases his power in there when it is convenient
I kinda feel this way too, but most of what you said comes down to interpretation. It simply isn't shown in the writing that these two have developed such a bond. They barely talk, barely interact, and they've simply made Cabba a Vegeta fanboy and Vegeta a begrudging old master who has taken an interest in Cabba. The connection is no where near Piccolo and Gohan was in Z and it needs to be for this power up to work. I'm not saying I don't like Vegeta and Cabba. I'm just saying they needed more time to build this dynamic and could've used this tourney to do so. Instead, both Geets and Cabba have had limited screen time.
I agree, they could have developed the relationship better, perhaps with random encounters between Vegeta and Kyabe.
But what I think TOEI wanted to get through is that there is a very strong bond between two, especially by Vegeta (for all his life story with his race). And if we think deeply (although it's just personal interpretations), I think we can explain better because that served as a motivation for him to get stronger.
It's all preference, I'll admit. I never liked SSB except for the aura. I like the darker color of Vegeta's new form, but now I don't like the aura lol. I also think it's too much of one color. Vegeta needs his black armor, because now he just looks like a weird buff Sonic the Hedgehog to me and its making me uncomfortable when he sparkles and stares at the screen with those kawai eyes :?
I think SSB is my favorite transformation, and I really like her aura (especially in the RoF movie, in which she was very well drawn). So this little '' update '' in Blue look made me like the transformation even more, especially if it's the aura that has more detail.
The art on this EP were a bit inconsistent, I hope in the next few episodes, Vegeta's pupils are better drawn
There's some plot holes to it, I agree. People seem to be able to sense energy only when the plot demands as it doesn't make any sense that no one knew Trunks and Goten could go Super Saiyan if the boys had used it before. At the very least Piccolo and Vegeta should have known. But outside of that, because KK has always existed it never felt like it came out of nowhere. And it makes a strange sort of sense that you can combine them. One is a godly technique and the other is a transformation using god ki. But I have to admit, I'd have loved to see Goku spout of those percentages of success and then just spontaneously combust in a blaze of failure. That would've made that arc more enjoyable for me. But I did really enjoy SSBKK in that arc.
In EP 39 there really was an explanation for why Goku did not combine SSJ with Kaioken in DBZ, it was interesting.
But in this EP, he says that Blue has a calm heart, while in ToP, Goku disables his Blue form to make Genki Dama and Kuririn says he did it because SSB has "maliciousness creeps inside him," and this seemed to me contradictory with the explanation given in the Champa tournament.
But I felt that it was also a bit sudden and it could be explained that both Vegeta and Whis did not know that Goku planned to use this technique with Blue, even though he had always trained with them. In addition to the fact that he was also suddenly able to dominate the Kaioken to the point where there was practically no energy expenditure in the ToP

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Re: Trunks SSRage Vs Vegeta Beyond Blue - What is the reason for this comparison?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:50 am

Kaiosama wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Kaiosama wrote:
Because both forms came out of nowhere and feel forced in order to make both characters more relevant power-wise. Vegeta was significantly weaker than Goku before he got this transformation (much like Trunks was compared to Goku and Vegeta) and this transformation allows him to fight on par with KKX20 Goku. Once Goku is able to master UI and access it at will, the gap between the two will be significant once again (as it should be). This is just a contrived plot device because of what's going on with Jiren right now. It also appeases Trunks and Vegeta fans and will help sell more merch. Knowing this makes it even more annoying IMO :roll:
Why forced? you could say that this would not be the best time to present the transformation, but Vegeta has been training enough for years (basically, almost 3 whole sagas after getting Blue), so he's certainly already able to get a power up at that level.
It would be forced if it were a power up that was not commensurate with the potential of the character or his level of training, as was the case with Trunks (potential he had, not training)
Basically, all this was because TOEI wanted to invent the Blue Kaioken and generate even more confusion in the power scale (Blue Kaioken itself also came out of nowhere but you're not complaining)

And you say '' Goku will dominate the UI and continue superior ''. Now, it just seems to me that you are unable to accept that Vegeta can get a power up and wants at all costs that Goku is untouchable.

Some Goku fans are totally annoying because they are not able to argue normally. Other users who disagreed with me at least showed some arguments.
I did show my arguments. You just don't like or agree with them because you're biased as a Vegeta fan. You're doing the exact same thing you claim that I'm doing. :roll: I don't have to be able to accept or not accept a power-up for Vegeta and be worried that he's going to touch or surpass Goku because the narrative dictates that Vegeta will always be second fiddle to Goku and has for the last 28 years. That's his purpose as a SUPPORTING character and no amount of power-ups will ever matter. Again that's the purpose of his character and it's irritating when Vegeta fans think he deserves anything when he's not the main character and then whine that Toyriama and Toei mistreat him all the time. He wrote the character and that's clearly his intention for him, so I'm sorry you don't agree with the role of a character HE created.
I read the other comments and answered. But you clearly had the intention of completely reducing the character, trying to compare him to Goku (which is not the goal of the topic), because no one is talking about the power of Goku and Vegeta here. You basically treated Goku as untouchable and acted just like his fanboys. Anyway, it's not worth discussing

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Re: Trunks SSRage Vs Vegeta Beyond Blue - What is the reason for this comparison?

Post by BWri » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:56 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:In EP 39 there really was an explanation for why Goku did not combine SSJ with Kaioken in DBZ, it was interesting.
But in this EP, he says that Blue has a calm heart, while in ToP, Goku disables his Blue form to make Genki Dama and Kuririn says he did it because SSB has "maliciousness creeps inside him," and this seemed to me contradictory with the explanation given in the Champa tournament.
I always thought it was because of his perfect ki control and calmness of god ki in SSB that he could use KK with it. I didn't remember the line about the calm heart. I just rewatched episode 39 and he does mention he thought he could do it, "So long as I had the strength, pure heart, and complete energy control of Super Saiyan Blue." So he does mention his pure heart, which is a weird thing to mention when it comes to KK. I don't remember KK ever requiring a pure heart to be performed. So it does appear that there's a contradiction between the U6 arc and the ToP. I never noticed that before. I'm not surprised though.
But I felt that it was also a bit sudden and it could be explained that both Vegeta and Whis did not know that Goku planned to use this technique with Blue, even though he had always trained with them.
He could have easily hid the idea from them. I could even see him maybe practicing when they weren't around. It appeared in ep. 39 that he'd never properly used the technique, but had practiced trying it enough that he could figure out the chances of success. If they sensed him, they'd have only sensed a temporary, likely brief power increase, if that. It's not a huge plot hole, but it is still pretty dumb that they didn't know, considering the amount of time they spent training together.
In addition to the fact that he was also suddenly able to dominate the Kaioken to the point where there was practically no energy expenditure in the ToP
Goku's recovery in the ToP makes no sense. I think everyone can agree to that. He's using his most energy expensive forms and attacks and has shown little to no drawback. It's the opposite even, he appears to be getting stronger and has energy to spare apparently.

But even with all that said, I still think SSBKK makes a lot more sense than Vegeta or Trunks' transformations.
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Re: Trunks SSRage Vs Vegeta Beyond Blue - What is the reason for this comparison?

Post by SuperDragoon » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:19 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Trunks Rage form was fine, He needed to be relevant in his own damn arc
He could have still been relevant. In the manga, he didn't have Super Saiyan Rage, yet he still played a key role when he used his healing powers as Future Shin's apprentice to heal Mai, Gowasu, Goku and Vegeta.

And besides, Trunks didn't destroy Zamasu, so in the end they hyped Super Saiyan Rage Trunks so much and he couldn't even beat the main villain of the arc.
The problem with that is Trunks was handled horribly even with what he did. Goku and Vegeta ended up fighting his own problems. Meanwhile Trunks is relegated to healing people which is a stupid thing for him to be able to do to begin with. Meanwhile SSJ Rage kept Trunks completely relevant and gave him more importance.

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Re: Trunks SSRage Vs Vegeta Beyond Blue - What is the reason for this comparison?

Post by Sonicjamareiz » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:28 am

That Trunks never trained bullshit needs to go it was shown throughout the arc that he somewhat trained otherwise how did Trunks learn the Galic Gun he never saw Vegeta do the move?
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Re: Trunks SSRage Vs Vegeta Beyond Blue - What is the reason for this comparison?

Post by Kanious » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:51 pm

I compare both transformations, but positively.

Also, i don't think that transformations need a name or explanation at all, the series implies why it happens and everything should be kept simple.

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