What's wrong with the FUNi grunting?

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:34 pm

DemonKingPiccolo wrote:I had a serious issue with the Funi Goku first Super Saiyan transformation grunting. Not only was it really bad, but stupid Sean made him sound like he was trying to transform. The first Super Saiyan transformation simply happens, it doesn't happen by making it.

No, it "simply happens" in the manga and Budokai 1. Three minutes of grunting and straining is trying to make something happen, no matter if the grunting is "zkzkkzkkkzkzkkkkkkz" or "rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrarar".

Post by **Kaboom** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:39 pm

Rocketman, dude... you're awesome.

Tsukento · Post by **Tsukento** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:25 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:He didn't make it sound like he was trying to transform, he made it sound like he was about to explode with anger.

I can't EVER recall making constipated noises and grunts when being incredibly angry. How about the rest of you guys?

Lavender Saiyan · Post by **Lavender Saiyan** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:32 am

Actual English clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKYTjSE3xgk

Once again, I feel that this sounds more acurate to what you would sound like if you were straining your body to ultimate ends.

Now someone brought up what really focusing your Ki sounds like in the martial arts world. But the so called real "Ki" and what we see in DBZ are 2 totally different things. Really focusing your Ki is more like meditating. It has nothing to do with "powering up". So that's not a fair comparison.

Vekurotto · Post by **Vekurotto** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:42 am

The grunting's a bother only when it becomes laughable (Oob vs Goku) and whenever it becomes unrealistic.

Dark Vegeta-Sama · Post by **Dark Vegeta-Sama** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:49 am

Lavender Saiyan wrote:
Actual English clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKYTjSE3xgk
Once again, I feel that this sounds more acurate to what you would sound like if you were straining your body to ultimate ends.

Maybe to you, but somehow I doubt that most people would go around sounding like they need to take a dump.

Listen to how Brian Drummond's Vegeta screamed; there was no grunting, just pure screaming. Now that sounded like a man filled with rage and unleashing the limits of his power.

Hell, I can't even recall any of the Ocean cast sounding constipated or grunting to a great extent.

And, really, that's how it should be done. The way that FUNi's cast do the "power up" scenes just make the show look juvenile as fuck, and probably contributed greatly to the show not being taken seriously by a certain percentage of anime fans.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:05 am

omegacwa · Post by **omegacwa** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:58 pm

No offense, but I really think you might be putting too much thought into this.

I think the answer is simply a difference in culture more than anything. I do understand were you are coming from, DBZ is a martial arts anime, so martial arts style breathing and Kiais make sense to be included. But I am going to assume it is more the voice director than the actors in the Japanese version. Now I don't know for certain, but I don't think Ryo Horikawa and Ms. Nozawa and the rest were trained martial artist. I bet they were shown examples, or told how to breath and scream, while the American cast most likely wasn't.

Now, as I was saying, a cultural difference. In Japan and Asian countries they are exposed to Martial Arts far more frequently than Americans, it is a part of there culture. Also there are millions of hong kong martial arts movies and so on that are produced all the time, the market is flooded with them, people over there are constantly exposed to martial arts. Soft spoken characters using Kiais and what not, because a lot of the actors for those movies are martial artists.

Now, in America. Look at what we are exposed to. The most popular Fighting series is probably the Rocky movies. Now you can't watch a Rocky movie and tell me that there isn't a lot of grunting during fights. Even Jean Claude Van Dam movies have tons of grunting. Watch a movie like Pumping Iron, all those body builders scream and grunt when they are using all there strength.

It really is just a difference in culture if you ask me.

And as for that Vegeta scene, I really like the english version. I think the music was slightly better, and Sabat's scream at the end is really loud and awesome.
As I said, I like Ryo Horikawa, but his screaming always seemed too quiet for me.

Vekurotto · Post by **Vekurotto** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:22 pm

I partially think it might be the voice director's choice for that too, although it's highly unlikely. In HoK/FotNS, when Toshio Furukawa voiced Shin, always had to say "ATATATATATATATATATATATA" anytime he was doing an attack yet when he voices Piccolo, there is less grunting as a whole.

HOWEVER, I can't say that the same thing for DBZ Funi grunts. Why? Watch YYH. There are less grunts overall and it is done by the same company. There are many spots where there could have been grunts but there weren't and overall it leads to a more realistic atmosphere.

All I can say about this is that there are times when your mouth is open but sound does not come out. And you don't have to voice every action the character does.

MyVisionity · Post by **MyVisionity** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:59 pm

omegacwa wrote: It really is just a difference in culture if you ask me.

I agree. FUNimation's intent was to make an American product for an American audience. The exaggerated grunting sounds are common for children's shows, not to mention FUNi's actors aren't exactly the cream of the crop.

Vekurotto wrote: HOWEVER, I can't say that the same thing for DBZ Funi grunts. Why? Watch YYH. There are less grunts overall and it is done by the same company. There are many spots where there could have been grunts but there weren't and overall it leads to a more realistic atmosphere.

I think in the case of Hakusho, that series is much more grounded in reality than DB. Plus by the time they started that series, FUNi had more experience and was able to stay more faithful to the original.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:15 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:Rocketman, dude... you're awesome.

You too, holmes.

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:28 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:It's like watching gay porn? Because the way someone grunts is different in either language? Now that's just funny. Next you would say that Goku's Kamehameha sounds like he's taking a dump in the FUNi version, but not Japanese version, right?

I was joking because I find this topic to be a joke. It seems like a "calling all Funi lovers, let's all wank off for awhile about how our version of the show isn't so bad and deny anyone who says otherwise!" Those pop up every so often so I just replied with a gag.

PS.Kunzait_83 will you have my child?

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:42 pm

The only reason anyone complains about the grunting is because they're nitpicky idiots, plain and simple. You're either exerting effort or your not. And if you are you sound the same no matter what the cause of the effort is. A grunt is a grunt is a grunt is a grunt and anyone that says otherwise is a moron.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:55 pm

Xyex wrote:The only reason anyone complains about the grunting is because they're nitpicky idiots, plain and simple. You're either exerting effort or your not. And if you are you sound the same no matter what the cause of the effort is. A grunt is a grunt is a grunt is a grunt and anyone that says otherwise is a moron.

I'm a nitpicky idiot, plain and simple. I am a moron.

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:05 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Xyex wrote:The only reason anyone complains about the grunting is because they're nitpicky idiots, plain and simple. You're either exerting effort or your not. And if you are you sound the same no matter what the cause of the effort is. A grunt is a grunt is a grunt is a grunt and anyone that says otherwise is a moron.
I'm a nitpicky idiot, plain and simple. I am a moron.

Well now I don't feel so bad knowing that Mr.EX is a nitpicky moronic idiot too!

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:10 pm

LegendarySSJ7 · Post by **LegendarySSJ7** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:26 pm

My two cents - the issue, to me, is that the tone to FUNimation's VAs is... well... ultra-strained. Too strained, even for their grunts, which sound less like a chi-release and more like standing in a 6-by-6, which isn't very invigorating, as though they're trying a tad too hard. If you've ever noticed, the FUNimation VAs sound much better when their voices are nonchalant and less strained (without sounding sappy). The UUE makes this problem even more glancing. The Seiyuu's tones are natural, which is how they should be, whilst still adroitly adding a certain intensity to their voices; this makes the screams and exultations rather seamless, which is very apt for the nature of the roles.

Cell freaking out over SS2 Gohan is a good example of this...while I find Dameon Clarke is a great English Cell (for his 1st stage and his Complete Form), he sounds whiney and very... well... forced. The flux in voices doesn't help either. This does not convey the gradual build to "insanity" seen later on, where Cell should sound slightly out of rein but imposing, which is just how he should sound in my ears. The Seiyuus know what they're doing.

Linda Young is also a great example - her building yells sound like guttural yells (like Sabat's, but even worse), as though it came from a garbage truck. This causes said voices to be monotonous in nature, which doesn't work well and intensely deters the broadness of the fervid range of emotion that should exist instead (as well as taking away the believability of key scenes of many epiphanies, personal and at large). But that isn't even going into Linda Young's performance. To be blunt, it's way too effeminate, and sounds less like a deep-sounding slumlord and more like a constipated, 80-year old woman (which is the greatest antithesis of the Seiyuu possible). Plus, the dialogue also works against FUNimation's VAs immensely.

The 23rd Budokai is also a good example, with Piccolo Daimao (the offspring, apparently). Sabat, while a decent Piccolo at times (to me), sounds way too forced and less menacing than hoped. Piccolo needs a palpable certain edge to his voice that conveys that he can be merciless if need be and can never be quite trusted. This is just what the Seiyuu (as well as Scott McNeil, with a deeper voice, which is fine to me) does.

In short - the "grunts" and screams should sound seamless and like chi-releases, and not something strained enough to stupefyingly murder one's hearing. There is the issue, in my ears.

Lavender Saiyan · Post by **Lavender Saiyan** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:22 am

Wrongo. It has EVERYTHING to do with "powering up" because it's the same exact damned thing; just immensely over exaggerated to supernatural proportions.

But the process of powering up in realoty is a meditative focused state. Unlike depicted in DBZ which has yelling and straining. Real powering up is calm. DBZ is not.

Also...um...so what was wrong with Sabat's grunting in the SSJ scene? Ryo (I forget his last name) sounded strained aswell.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:47 am

SaiyamanMS · Post by **SaiyamanMS** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:36 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:By contrast, NONE of the American cast sound remotely like even a cartoon stereotype of martial artists doing kiais. They’re going for a totally different vibe outside of anything that has anything to do with martial arts, in spite of the fact that it’s a martial arts centered show. They’re going for the whole testosterone infused American super hero thing with the grunting and fighting noises. And it sounds lame as shit to most people over the age of 13.

Well, I totally see your point Kunzait and considering your extensive martial arts background, I can totally accept your authority when you say that the grunting in the Funi dub is unrealistic and nothing like real martial arts. However to say that "it sounds lame as shit to most people over the age of 13" seems a little harsh.

As an 18 year old admittedly who has very little knowledge of real world martial arts, the Funi grunts aren't all that bad in my opinion. Of course, I first got into the Funi dub a number of years ago when I was still under 13... So guess that could actually be undermining my opinion here.

Although I have to say that the grunts are the least of Funi's problems, their script often leaves a lot to be desired, Linda Young is extremely miscast as Freeza, Sabat has way too many roles and I don't want to even go into the disaster that was Mark Menza's music.

Although, the problem in this case lies where there's two groups, those who know real martial arts and those who don't. And to those who don't, the impression they get is that they're "exerting a large amount of effort", which can be expressed through grunting, which is why those who are ignorant of how martial arts breathing and kiais work more or less accept it. And well, the way I see it, the people who don't see a problem with the grunting don't understand why the ones with real martial arts knowledge do. Because they don't have the martial arts knowledge to understand.

However, I must say that you have done a magnificent job of explaining the problems with the grunts. And I commend you for that. Although, I figured it'd be fair to bring up the counter argument... Which I guess doesn't really dispute your authority, but displays our ignorance on the topic. But hey, ignorance is bliss?

Kanzenshuu

What's wrong with the FUNi grunting?

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