"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[The_Destroyer]

More proof that Gohan fanboys are salty, greedy and never happy xD honestly i LOVE karma so much ! <3

Coming from the guy who attacks anyone who says something bad about 17.

[Bryesque]

Ehh, personally I think it makes sense for 17 to return, even if the ToP was just an excuse to bring him back. Maybe it wasn't the most natural reintroduction, but I always thought it was weird that he just disappeared entirely after Cell's defeat, with only a couple mentions and a tiny cameo past that point. He's 18's brother, so that relationship deserved some resolution at the very least. It was nice little reveal that they'd been in contact at points in-between, and considering he's evolved into a more protective person (toward nature at least), getting involved in a situation like this feels pretty natural to me.

[Nickolaidas]

Ehh, personally I think it makes sense for 17 to return, even if the ToP was just an excuse to bring him back. Maybe it wasn't the most natural reintroduction, but I always thought it was weird that he just disappeared entirely after Cell's defeat, with only a couple mentions and a tiny cameo past that point. He's 18's brother, so that relationship deserved some resolution at the very least. It was nice little reveal that they'd been in contact at points in-between, and considering he's evolved into a more protective person (toward nature at least), getting involved in a situation like this feels pretty natural to me.

I C WUAT U DID THEAR!!!!!

Nature?

Natural?

Eh?

EH!??!

..... I'll walk myself out.

[kinisking]

I personally hope 17 becomes a main stay from now on. He's got a distinct personality, design and abilities. I hope he doesn't just become the barrier guy from now on though. One thing I love about him is how he brings his unique background to fights. With anilaza, him being a cyborg helped. With Damon and the animal girl, him being a ranger and not being able to sense ki seemed to come into play. It really gave me the feeling that he's indespensible.

[Nickolaidas]

I personally hope 17 becomes a main stay from now on. He's got a distinct personality, design and abilities. I hope he doesn't just become the barrier guy from now on though. One thing I love about him is how he brings his unique background to fights. With anilaza, him being a cyborg helped. With Damon and the animal girl, him being a ranger and not being able to sense ki seemed to come into play. It really gave me the feeling that he's indespensible.

Well he utilized his barrier in about ten different ways in the ToP, so even if he HAD just that ability, it's versatile and original enough to keep making him interesting in battle.

[Bryesque]

Ehh, personally I think it makes sense for 17 to return, even if the ToP was just an excuse to bring him back. Maybe it wasn't the most natural reintroduction, but I always thought it was weird that he just disappeared entirely after Cell's defeat, with only a couple mentions and a tiny cameo past that point. He's 18's brother, so that relationship deserved some resolution at the very least. It was nice little reveal that they'd been in contact at points in-between, and considering he's evolved into a more protective person (toward nature at least), getting involved in a situation like this feels pretty natural to me.

I C WUAT U DID THEAR!!!!!

Nature?

Natural?

Eh?

EH!??!

..... I'll walk myself out.

I personally hope 17 becomes a main stay from now on. He's got a distinct personality, design and abilities. I hope he doesn't just become the barrier guy from now on though. One thing I love about him is how he brings his unique background to fights. With anilaza, him being a cyborg helped. With Damon and the animal girl, him being a ranger and not being able to sense ki seemed to come into play. It really gave me the feeling that he's indespensible.

I'm definitely glad to have him around again! I don't know if there's room or need for him to be a "regular" exactly, and there are a ton of characters to juggle as-is, but I also hope he shows up more often from now on.

[TheSaiyanGod]

To fulfill the character arc we were set up with since like episode 30 of Dragon Ball Super. As well as the expansion in 90 or 88. Whichever it was. Of course he wouldn't reach it in training time, but through hardships in the tournament itself. You know to fulfill a character arc. A beginning, middle, and end. Not just a beginning, middle, and then cold shoulder.

He fights more than just to protect his family, he fights to make up for how much he has failed lately. He has commented on how powerless he was. The Super Dragon Balls are not what he is after. He wants to not be a burden no more. He doesn't want to be that green tracksuit guy who got destroyed by Freeza, nor that guy who Future Trunks couldn't confide in because he'd be too weak to be of use anyways.

He does think about them, hell he relects on them and his actions when beating Obuni. Vegeta NEVER thought of his family. At all. They were so unimportant in comparison that a boy he knew for a day was more of a trigger than the thought of his new born baby girl being wiped out. A boy he only has a racial tie to and nothing else. There chemisty boils down to you're a saiyan, and I'm a saiyan. What else do they actually share a kinship on? Cabba is the complete opposite of Vegeta. The only reason he even has any interest in him is because of him being saiyan, and that's it. Has nothing to do with his personality, whether he likes him as a person, but only because he's saiyan. Not even because of his power because his power is nothing. He's another saiyan...and that's it.

What Gohan said was a set up before the tournament and also apart of his desire to not be a burden no more. That's why he got angry at his dad for not taking him seriously. Because he would never get anywhere if he never went all out even if he'd lose. Gohan's story is a coming of age arc after falling from grace. A story of a person who took his peace too much for granted, and almost paid for it. Vegeta's story is nothing. It doesn't revolve around Universe 6, it just happens to happens to just coincide with the one thing he actually said a bunch of times in the tournament. To be the winner. To be the best. The thing he said way more than anything else.

He is still a nuisance. Merely having his own base Super Saiyan Blue form be above Goku's is more than enough as it's not like it wasn't already in the Black Arc where he did much better against Black than Goku ever did. Him having a new form is utterly pointless, especially when Jiren is holding back so much that once he actually gets serious, it'll take Ultra Instinct to do anything with Vegeta being nothing again since SSJBKK is nothing to Jiren anyways. All he's done with Goku is push Jiren...that's it. Not even hurt him in the slightest.

Hell Freeza deserves an upgrade more than Vegeta does. He has more ties to the central plot, an ongoing theme, and he had been doing training too. He arguably has even more story significance than Gohan too.

Most of the things you said were just lessons that Piccolo gave to Gohan in training, not a reason why he fights in this tournament. He understood his weaknesses and struggled to improve them, this is not a motivation or the reason he wants to participate in the tournament.
The main reason he fights now is for his family, and he made that clear before attending the Exhibition tournament

And we all know that Gohan never wanted to be a fighter. He is doing this now out of necessity, and as a consequence he is trying to fix his previous failures in the tournament, that's all. It does not mean that the character's arc is to return the struggles, redeem themselves and simply get a new transformation and overcome everyone again.
And the only time that Gohan is apparently thinking of his family is against Obuni. At no other time do we see that being his motivation, so there's no need to complain about it with Vegeta (though it's clear he's both fighting for his family, and that does not have to be shown).

And Jiren in this fight is using more power than against UI Goku, meaning Vegeta and Goku are facing a much stronger Jiren and are managing to pressure him.
This shows the evolution of the two and would not be able if only Goku fought alone, it was necessary for Vegeta to get something new, in addition to match the SSB KK.

Freeza deserves another upgrade than Vegeta? The same guy who spent 1 year in hell training mentally? He does not even want to face Jiren, just save energy and be the last to stay in the arena.

It is part of his reason. He mentioned it before. It's been apart of his entire arc in Super. We've seen it as early as the ROF arc. His family is the other reason, which he thinks of far more than Vegeta who mentions quite often he's out to merely be the best. Which was stated numerous times.

He's doing it out of necessity and to make up for his past failures. He took his growth very seriously as he was not going to do the same crap he pulled before. Which is way more than Vegeta who prattled on about winning the tournament to be the best more than anything else.

This does not show the evolution of those 2. It's nothing but power level nonsense. It does not show anything about that. He had no need for a new form at all. Especially when it's going to quickly be pushed right out once Ultra Instinct comes back as SSBKK means jack shit to Jiren, so that in turn means Vegeta's power up means jack shit as well. Not to mention he doesn't need to match Goku for any reason other than people want that. His power up is just as forced and thrown in as Future Trunks, except Trunks had a more satisfying reason to get one. So much so a lot of people are really upset the manga didn't give it to him.

Freeza has more story development going for him than Vegeta. He trained in a unique way that managed to skyrocket his abilities. He is completely cocky and so sure of himself despite supposedly being heavily outcast. And this is Freeza, the guy who hates when anyone is more powerful than him, and commonly freaks out when it happens. Yet now he doesn't seem bothered. If everything was merely about who trains hard, then Beerus wouldn't be much as he hardly ever trains and prefers to eat more than anything. Not to mention training hard had nothing to do with either transformation in this story arc. It was being pushed into a corner, something literally anyone can be in said situation. Not to mention despite how horribly written and handled it was for Gohan to get that powerful in like a day, that alone like Freeza is a pretty ginormous feat. Not to mention it all comes from his potential alone as his state is not a form, but his raw unlocked potential. So an actual transformation would probably be even more insane.

Why are you using the previous sagas as an argument?
If that's the case, then I can also bring Vegeta scenes thinking about his family, especially in Future Trunks saga.

I'm talking about the tournament. In the tournament, Gohan is never shown thinking about his family, and this does not mean that this is not one of his motivations.
It makes no sense to criticize Vegeta saying that in the tournament he does not think about his family when Gohan does the same.
And stop trying to lessen Vegeta's motivations to exalt those of Gohan. The two fight basically for the same thing, the difference is that Vegeta is also struggling to get a promise fulfilled (not just being the strongest). You quote things from Gohan that were not even explicit

Goku was abysmally stronger than Vegeta, with Kaioken and UI.
It was necessary that this difference of powers diminished, and that was one of the reasons for Vegeta to obtain its new form (it is also the same reason for Trunks to receive in the saga Black).
And even the SSJ Rage of Trunks was practically useless. All he managed was to hold Black and Zamasu on EP 62. But in a direct fight he even managed to scratch Black. When he defeats Merged Zamasu, he still uses the energy of everyone on Earth with his '' Genki Sword '', the reason is not even the SSJ Rage. So I do not know why to complain about the new Vegeta form that serves so much to match him to Goku, as to face Jiren in a decent way.

And Jiren is increasing his power, but even so, Goku and Vegeta can resist. It would be strange and forced if both of them did this with just the SSB.

Amount of training really does not mean everything, but why "development and hype in a saga" mean that this character must have to receive a new transformation? This does not mean that this character deserves it.
But it is very strange that a character who is years out of the struggles, without training, simply out of nothing get a new transformation and outdo everyone. That would be forced, and that's why it's much more plausible that Vegeta gets, since he's always training and looking

[HeroR]

Gohan receiving such a large boost was NOT the pay off for his large hype but a REASON for his large hype and look where it led?

Plenty of fans are pissed and they wouldn't be if the hype was so high, which i told you would happen.

It was along with him getting the most scene time next to Goku, took out the final fighters for two universes, and was a key member of taking out one of U11's big three.

Gohan not living to the 'hype' is really just fans wanting the moon and nothing short of Gohan winning the whole thing or being a key member fighting Jiren.

[Ki Breaker]

Not this 17 thing again, jeez..
Here, have this new ship and talk about it if a discussion just has to happen
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Michsi]

Not this 17 thing again, jeez..
Here, have this new ship and talk about it if a discussion just has to happen
[spoiler][/spoiler]

What ship? Which combination are you talking about here?

Piccolox18? 18xGohan? ShinxGohan? BeerusxGohan? Multishipping?

You must elaborate.

[Ki Breaker]

Not this 17 thing again, jeez..
Here, have this new ship and talk about it if a discussion just has to happen
[spoiler][/spoiler]

What ship? Which combination are you talking about here?

Piccolox18? 18xGohan? ShinxGohan? BeerusxGohan? Multishipping?

You must elaborate.

So many possibilities!
But here's the thing, 18 sticks to Piccolo for a reason ya know and it's not because she is cold, that pride she has in her eyes while looking at Gohan while she sits cozy with Piccolo..
Yeah..
That's my new ship and it's equipped with Cannons and shit

[ToshioWrites]

I'm really interested in seeing how officially becoming a god of destruction amplifies your power. Also hope we get some kind of short flashback scene or good exposition from Belmod about Toppo transformation

[Ki Breaker]

I'm really interested in seeing how officially becoming a god of destruction amplifies your power. Also hope we get some kind of short flashback scene or good exposition from Belmod about Toppo transformation

It would be really cool if it's a transfer of duty kind of thing, belmod fears erasure and as a last resort gives his title to Toppo, Toppo and Jiren win the tournament with only Goku from Universe 7 staying in, later it's decided God of destructions weren't allowed to participate hence Toppo is considered out and team 11 is erased due to "cheating"

[darzap]

I'm really interested in seeing how officially becoming a god of destruction amplifies your power. Also hope we get some kind of short flashback scene or good exposition from Belmod about Toppo transformation

It would be really cool if it's a transfer of duty kind of thing, belmod fears erasure and as a last resort gives his title to Toppo, Toppo and Jiren win the tournament with only Goku from Universe 7 staying in, later it's decided God of destructions weren't allowed to participate hence Toppo is considered out and team 11 is erased due to "cheating"

If they do anything close to that route, I'd rather expect them to let both universes survive, i.e. Toppo is disqualified for being GoD, and, hence, Jiren and Goku end it in a draw and both may live to fight in another movie.

[Michsi]

Not this 17 thing again, jeez..
Here, have this new ship and talk about it if a discussion just has to happen
[spoiler][/spoiler]

What ship? Which combination are you talking about here?

Piccolox18? 18xGohan? ShinxGohan? BeerusxGohan? Multishipping?

You must elaborate.

So many possibilities!
But here's the thing, 18 sticks to Piccolo for a reason ya know and it's not because she is cold, that pride she has in her eyes while looking at Gohan while she sits cozy with Piccolo..
Yeah..
That's my new ship and it's equipped with Cannons and shit

Let's look at it like this, Piccolo's lifespan will reach hundreds of years, 18 will probably outlast a normal human lifespan too given that she doesn't look old at all in EOZ. At some point, it will only be these two, with no pesky husband to get in their way. Your ship may not have sailed, but it's patiently waiting in the harbor :3


I have the feeling what we see with Toppo is merely a transformation that brings him closer to the power of a god, but isn't actually one. GoD's don't look like that.

[ToshioWrites]

I think we all expect 17 to go out to Toppo but I hope freeza does as well and it sets up a 2 on 2 for all the marbles. The title of 126 seems to suggest Vegeta vs Toppo and
Goku can't go into UI without being backed into a corner and fighting alone vs jiren should do the job

[dbzfan7]

Most of the things you said were just lessons that Piccolo gave to Gohan in training, not a reason why he fights in this tournament. He understood his weaknesses and struggled to improve them, this is not a motivation or the reason he wants to participate in the tournament.
The main reason he fights now is for his family, and he made that clear before attending the Exhibition tournament

And we all know that Gohan never wanted to be a fighter. He is doing this now out of necessity, and as a consequence he is trying to fix his previous failures in the tournament, that's all. It does not mean that the character's arc is to return the struggles, redeem themselves and simply get a new transformation and overcome everyone again.
And the only time that Gohan is apparently thinking of his family is against Obuni. At no other time do we see that being his motivation, so there's no need to complain about it with Vegeta (though it's clear he's both fighting for his family, and that does not have to be shown).

And Jiren in this fight is using more power than against UI Goku, meaning Vegeta and Goku are facing a much stronger Jiren and are managing to pressure him.
This shows the evolution of the two and would not be able if only Goku fought alone, it was necessary for Vegeta to get something new, in addition to match the SSB KK.

Freeza deserves another upgrade than Vegeta? The same guy who spent 1 year in hell training mentally? He does not even want to face Jiren, just save energy and be the last to stay in the arena.

It is part of his reason. He mentioned it before. It's been apart of his entire arc in Super. We've seen it as early as the ROF arc. His family is the other reason, which he thinks of far more than Vegeta who mentions quite often he's out to merely be the best. Which was stated numerous times.

He's doing it out of necessity and to make up for his past failures. He took his growth very seriously as he was not going to do the same crap he pulled before. Which is way more than Vegeta who prattled on about winning the tournament to be the best more than anything else.

This does not show the evolution of those 2. It's nothing but power level nonsense. It does not show anything about that. He had no need for a new form at all. Especially when it's going to quickly be pushed right out once Ultra Instinct comes back as SSBKK means jack shit to Jiren, so that in turn means Vegeta's power up means jack shit as well. Not to mention he doesn't need to match Goku for any reason other than people want that. His power up is just as forced and thrown in as Future Trunks, except Trunks had a more satisfying reason to get one. So much so a lot of people are really upset the manga didn't give it to him.

Freeza has more story development going for him than Vegeta. He trained in a unique way that managed to skyrocket his abilities. He is completely cocky and so sure of himself despite supposedly being heavily outcast. And this is Freeza, the guy who hates when anyone is more powerful than him, and commonly freaks out when it happens. Yet now he doesn't seem bothered. If everything was merely about who trains hard, then Beerus wouldn't be much as he hardly ever trains and prefers to eat more than anything. Not to mention training hard had nothing to do with either transformation in this story arc. It was being pushed into a corner, something literally anyone can be in said situation. Not to mention despite how horribly written and handled it was for Gohan to get that powerful in like a day, that alone like Freeza is a pretty ginormous feat. Not to mention it all comes from his potential alone as his state is not a form, but his raw unlocked potential. So an actual transformation would probably be even more insane.

Why are you using the previous sagas as an argument?
If that's the case, then I can also bring Vegeta scenes thinking about his family, especially in Future Trunks saga.

I'm talking about the tournament. In the tournament, Gohan is never shown thinking about his family, and this does not mean that this is not one of his motivations.
It makes no sense to criticize Vegeta saying that in the tournament he does not think about his family when Gohan does the same.
And stop trying to lessen Vegeta's motivations to exalt those of Gohan. The two fight basically for the same thing, the difference is that Vegeta is also struggling to get a promise fulfilled (not just being the strongest). You quote things from Gohan that were not even explicit

Goku was abysmally stronger than Vegeta, with Kaioken and UI.
It was necessary that this difference of powers diminished, and that was one of the reasons for Vegeta to obtain its new form (it is also the same reason for Trunks to receive in the saga Black).
And even the SSJ Rage of Trunks was practically useless. All he managed was to hold Black and Zamasu on EP 62. But in a direct fight he even managed to scratch Black. When he defeats Merged Zamasu, he still uses the energy of everyone on Earth with his '' Genki Sword '', the reason is not even the SSJ Rage. So I do not know why to complain about the new Vegeta form that serves so much to match him to Goku, as to face Jiren in a decent way.

And Jiren is increasing his power, but even so, Goku and Vegeta can resist. It would be strange and forced if both of them did this with just the SSB.

Amount of training really does not mean everything, but why "development and hype in a saga" mean that this character must have to receive a new transformation? This does not mean that this character deserves it.
But it is very strange that a character who is years out of the struggles, without training, simply out of nothing get a new transformation and outdo everyone. That would be forced, and that's why it's much more plausible that Vegeta gets, since he's always training and looking

Because the previous saga's are basically part of his build up. They hit the same beats. I never said Vegeta didn't care about his family. I said it was far less a priority in the story. You catch him saying more that he cares about being number 1 and winning the tournament than anything else.

Because family is a central part of his character, moreso than Vegeta. It is not a central part of his character. He does not strive to get stronger to protect them. He does for the same reason that Goku does. Vegeta does not train and fight to protect others. He does it because he enjoys it. Goku also fights for his family too let's be real here, it's not like he doesn't want to protect them. It's just lower on his reason for fighting and training, as is with Vegeta. Gohan fights solely to protect. Vegeta does mainly to improve himself like Goku.

And what's wrong with that? And why is it necessary to have the power gap to be diminished? Especially when the new form means jack shit to Jiren, so all it basically does is close on gap while there's yet another large one in the way anyways. How was this transformation a culmination of Vegeta as a character or in his story arc? It's not. It's not at all built up well. It's not at all any sort of new unexplored area Vegeta has discovered. He just got it by mutually doing what he always does.

For Trunks it served as a culimation of his struggles and helplessness. How he basically just got in the way more or less as only Goku and Vegeta could do anything. It was a reward for all the horrible shit he went through. For Vegeta it's just something that will make no difference. For Trunks it did make a difference. It made a him from a useless liability into someone who could actually help.

It's very strange a character who has no real tie to the story, has no real build up, is given a completely useless form that really is only there to be cool and not serve the story. How does it change anything? How does it change the landscape of the story? It doesn't. It's a form that has no reason to exist. The moment Ultra Instinct comes back, it's basically useless. Jiren already can crush SSJBKK level. So he can crush this form when he wants to. So it's literally of no consequence.

If training was literally what mattered, then Tenshinhan and Piccolo who practically do nothing but that would surely be far more powerful than they are, but they are not. Neither of them have anything of the sort.

Here's a good quote.

I think when we talk about what "deserves" a new transformation, we should consider more than just raw training time. Because training is one of those things that's used more for convenience than anything else in Dragon Ball, it's just an assumed state of the characters unless otherwise noted. Piccolo and Tenshinhan are established as training regularly, but we don't expect big powerups from them these days because they haven't been given a reason to develop as characters.

Transformations/powerups in Dragon Ball are ideally one of two things:

A) Culmination of a character arc.
B) A game-changer in the story.

At their best they can be both, that's why Gohan into SSJ2 against Cell was such an amazing moment. The problem with Vegeta's new form is that it fulfilled neither. It made a token effort to be "about" something, but Vegeta's had no growth throughout the Tournament and his relationship with Cabba was so under-developed that it fell flat. And it certainly isn't a game-changer. Ultra Instinct, aside from being well-executed in general, changed the entire dynamic of the tournament. It was immediately apparent just from watching that *this* was the only thing that can possibly beat Jiren. Super Saiyan Whoop-de-Blue doesn't for a second look like it can do that. Maybe it'll beat Toppo's new powerup, but that hasn't happened yet and isn't what triggered the transformation, so it'll basically just be coming up with a solution before the problem.

What about this new form is a culmination of his character or a game changer? Nothing. Do you honestly believe for a second it's going to make any bit of a difference against Jiren when we all know Ultra Instinct is the only thing that can. Jiren is completely unhurt or scratched by anything they do to him. At best Vegeta's new form might beat Toppo's new power up, which may be all it ever has going for it. It has no reason to exist other than the desire for wanting Vegeta to be closer to Goku. And don't pull the same thing for Gohan. I'd have no complaints if the manga is more subdue in comparison as it doesn't really promise anything.

Does the new form enhance Vegeta's character in any way? Nope. Does it further a character arc for him in a satisfying and organic way even a little bit? Nope. Does it have any effect on the tournament? Maybe. Does it really even need to contend with Jiren? Not really. Does Vegeta have to even fight Jiren? Not really. Did Gohan have to fight Jiren? Not really. Would a new form have served his character arc? Sure. Does it have to one shot everyone like people complain about? No not at all.

A new form serves nothing for Vegeta. Outside of novelty of "Oh lookie he's closer to Goku yet still heavily inferior to his new max power".

[OverHeaven]

Tbh if it wasn't for the "new form" line that Gohan had mentioned, I think people wouldn't be half upset about his elimination. He actually did pretty well if you ignore these stupid foreshadowings and useless build-ups that lead to nowhere. Maybe it'd have been much better if they went straight to the tournament without them.

I'm actually more curious to see people's reactions when Frieza gets humiliated or eliminated without going anywhere with his "plans".

[dbzfan7]

Tbh if it wasn't for the "new form" line that Gohan had mentioned, I think people wouldn't be half upset about his elimination. He actually did pretty well if you ignore these stupid foreshadowings and useless build-ups that lead to nowhere. Maybe it'd have been much better if they went straight to the tournament without them.

I'm actually more curious to see people's reactions when Frieza gets humiliated or eliminated without going anywhere with his "plans".

To be honest if none of his pre tournament stuff happened, and he never fought Goku, I'd be pretty satisfied. I still am, but I think they promised too much. Gohan did really well don't get me wrong, but it was well by Super Gohan standards...which was shit til now. If they just stuck to him with Piccolo and never did the rest (Despite how cool it may have been) I don't think anyone would have got their hopes up that high.

[supercat]

Pretty funny reading all these Android 17 rants. The guy was arguably the turning point of the tournament while further contribution from Gohan would have been followed by the same cheesy, overly heroic antics and speeches. Everything from Android 17's power up to SSB-tier to his calm, confident demeanor was perfect. The only other character who comes close to his portrayal is Frieza at this point. No other character was as appealing as these two, so it's great that they're still in. Hyped about their collaboration.