The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Bullza]

God of Destruction Toppo vs Super Saiyan 2 Kefla

Bearing in mind that Super Saiyan Kefla was stronger than Ultra Instinct Goku in Episode 110 me God of Destruction Toppo will be beaten somehow by Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

New match:

- Super Vegeta (Cell Games) vs. Shin (Boo arc)

Vegeta stomps IMO. Yakon would be a better match for him.

Future Trunks could also be referring to Gohan being out of shape at first look. As I don't think Gohan walks around fully powered on his Base.

Trunks being able to tell Gohan is rusty at first look just implies a even wider gap between Black Arc Gohan (Who's been training since FnF) and CG Gohan.

It's true that Gohan wasn't at full power since he was just laxing around, but characters can tell one's true power when it's convinient to the plot. Goku knew how strong Post Rosat Piccolo was even though he was just standing and wearing his weights.

Yes, there is. Goten and Trunks broke that rule before them and no one really cared about it, is not like Vegeta couldn't do it either.

Vegeta actually got pissed off when Goten transformed:


I know the next chapter he wasn't mad at Trunks, but i think it was more because of Trunks playing even with Goten and turning SSJ like he did.

Weaker or not, they didn't become several times stronger than Trunks who still required to transform to kill the androids. I don't buy your "overkill theory" he just used the power he knew it would be necessary to kill them.

Yeah that's true. Trunks was above 50% Goku, and there's no way in hell Semi Cell or Super Vegeta are like 2x Pre Rosat SSJs. Unless Trunks' SSJ boost is higher, which i dunno tbh.

It's made clear Trunks could've dealt with FP Freeza quite easily, instead he attacks a suppressed Freeza off guard, so it's not out of the common for Trunks to go by the overkill. He also turned SSJ even before leaving Capsuel Corp, so it's also possible he turned SSJ to arrive at Parsley City faster and just didn't bother to turn back into base.

Also, when Trunks throws Cell out of the city with a Kiai, Cell compliments Trunks saying he got a lot better. That's quite obvious, but Cell looks pretty nervous and is sweating when saying that. It seems like he's admiting inferiority to Trunks here:

Because she felt something off about Might Mask, I don't see the problem with she wanting to know who has behind the disguise and admitted playtime was over when they become SSJ.

Wanting to know who Mighty Mask is is just another reason for her to end the fight quicker. It's not like she's gonna discover who he is by dragging out the fight.

And #18 never said playtime was over when the boys transformed. She only said she knew their idendities.

Yes, it means as I don't see Cell getting one hundred times stronger after becoming Perfect, that's just overflowed. Going by your logic SSJ2 Kid Gohan would just sneeze and kill Cell (either as Perfect or Semi Perfect)

You think it's overflowed. Big difference.

Toriyama also said he imaginated the boost as 10x one, for what's worth it, so Base Saiyans being Semi Cell level doesn't really mean that Perfect Cell is like 50x Semi Perfect Cell:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... agon-ball/

I also didn't said he had no motivation at all, but less than when Goku was alive for sure. Vegeta got strong, but in seven years he couldn't surpass the power Gohan had in the Cell Games like Goku in the Afterlife done it, that's why he relied on Babidi to close that gap. As there's nothing holding back the possibility (later confirmed in BoG and Super) of Vegeta being weaker than Piccolo/18.

Even the source that implies Freeza > Base Saiyans (Super) contradicts itself by implying Gohan > Piccolo and Goku > Gotenks despite Base Gotenks being treated as incredible even prior to training on Rosat, so it's a very unlikely possibility.

[Myzt0gun]

God TOPPO vs HIT and Golden Frieza

God TOPPO vs SSJ2 KEFLA and Kamikazee Fireballs

God TOPPO vs ANIZARA and Trio De Dangers

God TOPPO vs SIDRA

God TOPPO, Dyspo and Kahseral vs BEERUS

In My Opinion, Toppo loses to Sidra in a fair match but I want to know your answers
Who will win these match ups???

[Berserker1921]

God TOPPO vs HIT and Golden Frieza

God TOPPO vs SSJ2 KEFLA and Kamikazee Fireballs

God TOPPO vs ANIZARA and Trio De Dangers

God TOPPO vs SIDRA

God TOPPO, Dyspo and Kahseral vs BEERUS

In My Opinion, Toppo loses to Sidra in a fair match but I want to know your answers
Who will win these match ups???

1. They can't hurt Toppo. Until we see a weakness in his power. Toppo wins with little difficulty.
2. Toppo wins with mild difficulty.
3. Toppo stomps.
4. I want to say Toppo, his hakai attack beat the crap out of Frieza. And he wasn't trying to kill Frieza. Sidra wanted to kill him. But overestimated him. Toppo wins with high difficulty.
5. Loses hard. Toppo is inexperienced with hakai power. Beerus beats him with mild difficulty.

[Zamasu55]

God TOPPO vs HIT and Golden Frieza

God TOPPO vs SSJ2 KEFLA and Kamikazee Fireballs

God TOPPO vs ANIZARA and Trio De Dangers

God TOPPO vs SIDRA

God TOPPO, Dyspo and Kahseral vs BEERUS

In My Opinion, Toppo loses to Sidra in a fair match but I want to know your answers
Who will win these match ups???

Toppo stomps everyone but Beerus who wins due to be more expierenced as a God of Destruction.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Vegeta stomps IMO. Yakon would be a better match for him.

Kaioshin = MSsj Goku Cell Saga:



This guide is called "El Manga Legendario" which is completely dedicated to the Manga only. It's made by Bird Studio, however it was published only in French and Spanish.

I went on to translate it, and I got a tough translation of this:

"A pesar de ocultar su fuerza cuando se conocieron, Goku sospecho que no era alguien corriente. Aunque tiene unas habilidades fuera de lo común, no parece que supere en fuerza de combate a los supersaiyanos. A juzgar por las precauciones que se toma con Dabra, de nivel similar al de Cell, se puede deducir que tiene la misma fuerza que Goku durante el Cell Game. Más adelante, su poder aumenta al fusionarse con Kibito, pero ni siquiera así pudo luchar contra Bu con garantias."

"Despite hiding their strength when they met, Goku suspected that he was not ordinary. Although he has extraordinary abilities, he does not seem to surpass the Supersaiyan in combat strength. Judging by the precautions taken with Dabra, similar in level to Cell, it can be deduced that he has the same strength as Goku during the Cell Game. Later on, his power increased when he merged with Kibito, but even so he could not fight against Bu with guarantees"

Yakon and Pui Pui > Kaioshin.

By The Way, Do you believe Gohan in DBS (prior to Piccolo's Training) got weaker than his Buu Saga counterpart? Just interested in knowing your answer to it.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Debate Materials:

Is Ultimate Gohan Base Form or A Transformation (Prior to DBS)?

GoD Toppo vs Jiren (Toppo Masters his control on Hakai Energy)

GoD Toppo vs Merged Zamasu

Current Base Goku vs SsjG Goku BoG arc

Broly Vs Cell (Old Debate, but I'm interested in seeing people argue on it)

[Ice85]

Debate Materials:

Is Ultimate Gohan Base Form or A Transformation (Prior to DBS)?

GoD Toppo vs Jiren (Toppo Masters his control on Hakai Energy)

GoD Toppo vs Merged Zamasu

Current Base Goku vs SsjG Goku BoG arc

Broly Vs Cell (Old Debate, but I'm interested in seeing people argue on it)

1.Base form, They heavily implied that all of Gohan's potential was unlocked in his base form.

2. Since it's been shown before that a fighter can resist the hakai energy if they are strong enough (Golden Frieza), I'm gonna have to give this one to Jiren. Though Toppo's hakai shield could be trouble for Jiren.

3. This is a tough one. Well first we need some references:
A. Vegeta and Goku were both fodder to Buuhan HOWEVER Goku managed to damage Merged Zamasu. This could be because of the huge power difference between Black and Zamasu. Merged Zamasu did stand up to Vegito Blue for a while, before Vegito's speed and power overpowered him.
B. In the NEP for 126, Toppo is fighting and getting the upper hand on Super Ultra Vegeta Blue whatever. This means that he could probably beat Kaioken X20 Goku too.
So I give Toppo the win, because of his hakai shield and because I actually think Toppo could beat Merged Zamasu.

4. I honestly have no idea how strong base Goku is at this point, it's been so inconsistent. I always thought that he was using God Ki when he fought frieza, but the writers said Goku merely powered up his base form, so idk gonna give SSG Goku the edge since no one said "Frieza might be as strong as Beerus when he fought Goku!".

5. Cell when he fought Goku would be destroyed by Broly, just as Goku was. But Full Power Perfect Cell could beat Broly imo, but it's not gonna be easy. I also think that Super Perfect Cell is significantly stronger than Broly (second coming).

Sorry for the long post!

[Legion]

God of Destruction Toppo vs Super Saiyan 2 Kefla

Bearing in mind that Super Saiyan Kefla was stronger than Ultra Instinct Goku in Episode 110 me God of Destruction Toppo will be beaten somehow by Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta.

Actually we don't know how and if Vegeta will beat Toppo .-. Anyway Toppo wins.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

I honestly have no idea how strong base Goku is at this point, it's been so inconsistent. I always thought that he was using God Ki when he fought frieza, but the writers said Goku merely powered up his base form, so idk gonna give SSG Goku the slight edge since no one said "Frieza might be as strong as Beerus when he fought Goku!".

I honestly don't understand your reasoning at all. Such a statement would have no reason to be mentioned to conclude that Current Base Goku beats SsjG Goku BoG Arc

Cell when he fought Goku would be destroyed by Broly, just as Goku was. But Full Power Perfect Cell could beat Broly imo, but it's not gonna be easy. I also think that Super Perfect Cell is significantly stronger than Broly (second coming).

Could you explain more? I have Broly casually stomping Celll, regardless of the phase he's in.

[BrolyKale]

How is Super Perfect Cell stronger than Broly second coming, if Broly from movie 8 is as strong as Perfect Cell? you should know that Broly second coming got a zenkai boost, him being less stronger than Super Perfect Cell makes 0 sense.

Movie 8 Broly >> Perfect Cell or at least = to Perfect Cell
Movie 10 Broly >> SSJ2 Gohan (note: Gohan isn't nerfed in movie 10 so his SSJ2 should be good enough)

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Base form, They heavily implied that all of Gohan's potential was unlocked in his base form.

Agreed

Since it's been shown before that a fighter can resist the hakai energy if they are strong enough (Golden Frieza), I'm gonna have to give this one to Jiren. Though Toppo's hakai shield could be trouble for Jiren.

Or Jiren could simply have no trouble dealing with it. Hakai Energy could be resisted. If Jiren > Vermouth, Who's supposedly a trained God Of Destruction capable of controlling his energy (just like any other god, confirmed by Him), then Jiren would have no trouble against Toppo. The only character rumored to surpass a God of Destruction is Jiren (From Universe 11, Mainly speaking).

This is a tough one. Well first we need some references:
A. Vegeta and Goku were both fodder to Buuhan HOWEVER Goku managed to damage Merged Zamasu.

I can't find the logic behind that. Buuhan and Vegetto are fodder in comparison to the current Tiers in DBS- Heck, Ever since SsjG arrived, Buu Saga was surpassed by Far. Comparing them is illogical.

I do get your second point. The reason Merged Zamasu was damaged was because of him letting his guard down which was directly stated and hinted on multiple occasions. He was also "shocked" of getting damage. Originally he wouldn't think he would take damage.

Goku overpowering Zamasu is either PIS, or can be explained that Goku got stronger at that interval, given that they kept referencing Saiyans being capable of improving during battle, hinting down all the way to the Universe 6 Arc's reference.

This could be because of the huge power difference between Black and Zamasu. Merged Zamasu did stand up to Vegito Blue for a while, before Vegito's speed and power overpowered him.

Future Zamasu in the Anime managed to trade blows with SsjB Goku, and hold his own against SsjB Vegeta (Pre ROSAT) and Ikari Ssj Trunks. Merged Zamasu increased his power by mutating. Vegetto's power is backed up by their "rivalry" so it's fine for them to be superior.

B. In the NEP for 126, Toppo is fighting and getting the upper hand on Super Ultra Vegeta Blue whatever. This means that he could probably beat Kaioken X20 Goku too.

So I give Toppo the win, because of his hakai shield and because I actually think Toppo could beat Merged Zamasu.

Agreed

I honestly have no idea how strong base Goku is at this point, it's been so inconsistent. I always thought that he was using God Ki when he fought frieza, but the writers said Goku merely powered up his base form, so idk gonna give SSG Goku the edge since no one said "Frieza might be as strong as Beerus when he fought Goku!".

God Ki in base is absolutely wrong, since all the Z Fighters before their atrocious power-ups (Like in the Tournament of Power) were capable of sensing his Ki in base. This applies to Ssj Goku on episode 13 when he reverted back, as everybody was capable of sensing his Ki.

The second part, I have no idea what that has to do with the topic in the first place

Cell when he fought Goku would be destroyed by Broly, just as Goku was. But Full Power Perfect Cell could beat Broly imo, but it's not gonna be easy. I also think that Super Perfect Cell is significantly stronger than Broly (second coming).

Explain your reasoning more.....

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

How is Super Perfect Cell stronger than Broly second coming, if Broly from movie 8 is as strong as Perfect Cell? you should know that Broly second coming got a zenkai boost, him being less stronger than Super Perfect Cell makes 0 sense.

He did get a Zenkai Alright. Regardless, I meant to specify Movie 8. Sorry for being Vague

[BrolyKale]

Ops, I was replying to Ice, not you, sorry.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Ops, I was replying to Ice, not you, sorry.

Well, I brought this up in the first place, unless I'm mistaken somehow

[BrolyKale]

Oh? so that's what you thought as well? Well, I edited my post above and said why Broly second coming is stronger than Super Perfect Cell. Broly from movie 10 is >> SSJ2 (that's all I can say) and Broly from movie 8 >> Perfect Cell or = Perfect Cell (Broly tanked a kamehameha when it damaged Perfect Cell pretty badly, he destroyed the South galaxy when he was a restrained SSJ, LSSJ Broly tanks everything during movie 8 so yh he should be Perfect Cell lvl). And in the second coming he got a zenkai boost, that will obviously make him much stronger than before.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Oh? so that's what you thought as well? Well, I edited my post above and said why Broly second coming is stronger than Super Perfect Cell. Broly from movie 10 is >> SSJ2 (that's all I can say) and Broly from movie 8 >> Perfect Cell or = Perfect Cell (Broly tanked a kamehameha when it damaged Perfect Cell pretty badly, he destroyed the South galaxy when he was a restrained SSJ, LSSJ Broly tanks everything during movie 8 so yh he should be Perfect Cell lvl). And in the second coming he got a zenkai boost, that will obviously make him much stronger than before.

What? You misunderstood me utterly. I'm the one who brought this topic up:

____________________________________________________



____________________________________________________

I'm not agreeing on anything with him. I actually, agree that Gohan wasn't nerfed, and that Broly got a Zenkai:



I even have Broly Movie 8 > Super Perfect Cell.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Vegeta stomps IMO. Yakon would be a better match for him.

Kaioshin = MSsj Goku Cell Saga:



This guide is called "El Manga Legendario" which is completely dedicated to the Manga only. It's made by Bird Studio, however it was published only in French and Spanish.

I went on to translate it, and I got a tough translation of this:

"A pesar de ocultar su fuerza cuando se conocieron, Goku sospecho que no era alguien corriente. Aunque tiene unas habilidades fuera de lo común, no parece que supere en fuerza de combate a los supersaiyanos. A juzgar por las precauciones que se toma con Dabra, de nivel similar al de Cell, se puede deducir que tiene la misma fuerza que Goku durante el Cell Game. Más adelante, su poder aumenta al fusionarse con Kibito, pero ni siquiera así pudo luchar contra Bu con garantias."

"Despite hiding their strength when they met, Goku suspected that he was not ordinary. Although he has extraordinary abilities, he does not seem to surpass the Supersaiyan in combat strength. Judging by the precautions taken with Dabra, similar in level to Cell, it can be deduced that he has the same strength as Goku during the Cell Game. Later on, his power increased when he merged with Kibito, but even so he could not fight against Bu with guarantees"

Yakon and Pui Pui > Kaioshin.

That shouldn't be possible at all. Had Shin been CG Goku level, Pocus and Yakon would be on Perfect Cell's league, but only Dabra was compared to Cell.

That also suggests Gohan is tens of times stronger than his farher at the Cell Games, what is ludicrous.

By The Way, Do you believe Gohan in DBS (prior to Piccolo's Training) got weaker than his Buu Saga counterpart? Just interested in knowing your answer to it.

I think he got. He looks considerably thiner than Boo Arc Gohan and isn't even sure if he can transform, whereas Boo Gohan can easily transform.

Is Ultimate Gohan Base Form or A Transformation (Prior to DBS)?

Permanent tranaformation. After the ritual Elder Kaioshom tells Gohan to power up like a SSJ and Gohan does change a bit.

Current Base Goku vs SsjG Goku BoG arc

SSJG Goku. I never got where the Base = SSJG came from, Goku fights as a SSJ with Beerus after losing God. Though i think Base Goku is reaching SSJG level and may surpass it soon.

Broly Vs Cell (Old Debate, but I'm interested in seeing people argue on it)

Movie logic has Bojack > M8 Broly, and Bojack got two shoted by SSJ2 Gohan whereas Cell survived multiple blows.

M10 Broly is > SPC though. Broly is said to be the strongest saiyan on M10 and supposedly the movie was written before it was revealed Gohan was rusty, so Broly wrecked a Gohan as strong as CG Gohan.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

That shouldn't be possible at all. Had Shin been CG Goku level, Pocus and Yakon would be on Perfect Cell's league, but only Dabra was compared to Cell

That's not the case at all. Perfect Cell stomps Ssj Goku Cell Saga, that's not an argument to begin with at all. It's already argued that Buu Saga Goku (Base Form) is above Kaioshin who's equal to Ssj Goku Cell Games. It has plenty of support behind it.

That also suggests Gohan is tens of times stronger than his farher at the Cell Games, what is ludicrous.

Not really, Ssj Gohan in the Cell Games is not much above Goku, but as a Ssj2 it all varies

It's true Ssj2 has a set multiplier, but it's highly agreed that Ssj2 in the Cell Games differs from Ssj2 in the Buu Saga, as Gohan was powered up by his rage, releasing his latent power

I think he got. He looks considerably thiner than Boo Arc Gohan and isn't even sure if he can transform, whereas Boo Gohan can easily transform.

That's no argument. By that logic SsjG Goku BoG is weaker than Ssj3 Goku Buu Saga because he's thinner

Permanent tranaformation. After the ritual Elder Kaioshom tells Gohan to power up like a SSJ and Gohan does change a bit.

Elder Kai also implies that in general, Ssj transformations aren't needed for powering up, implying it's one. Guides support This, and implied by Goku. Meaning Ultimate Gohan is not a form

SSJG Goku. I never got where the Base = SSJG came from, Goku fights as a SSJ with Beerus after losing God. Though i think Base Goku is reaching SSJG level and may surpass it soon.

I'll tell you from where it came from

Goku reverts back from SsjG while fighting Beerus:





Beerus thought that the SsjG Time Limit has gone, although Goku didn't show any sign of notice:



Goku reverts back to Ssj:



Everyone senses Goku's Ki, thus everyone came to the same conclusion:









Again, you would think this means Goku got weaker while reverting back to Ssj right?

Wrong

You'd think this is the case based on the fact that Beerus easily starts to push Goku away:









Beerus casually pushed Goku with a finger as shown above, and casually talks while Goku is trying to attack him.

Is that true though? NO.

Prior to all that, before Goku started reverting back to Ssj, he still had his SsjG power intact, thus no one sensed him, and neither did Whis comment anything on it. Yet Beerus managed to ridicule that SAME SSJG POWER:





He quite clearly implies that Beerus is STILL using that same power against SsjG either way. Nothing suggests Beerus powered down. That's why he's easily blabbering while SsjG Goku is trying his best fighting Beerus.

Beerus specifies "this much power". Which amount of power? The power he is CURRENTLY using.

It doesn't make sense for Goku to get weaker. By Beerus's words themselves: Goku kept surpassing his limits during this same fight:



This is exactly what Goku's entire case revolves around in here, as will be shown down...

Vegeta throws a Ki blast towards Piccolo and Whis, because both of them thought this was "over" in which case Goku reverted to Regular Ssj, thus he "automatically lost" or at least according to them. Vegeta's action signifies that it isn't over yet:





Goku himself still dashes towards Beerus, without realizing he got weaker. This is all after he got flicked by Beerus:



This same Ssj Goku does better than the Goku who, at the end, faired very worse against Beerus:





This caused Beerus to question himself again (he wouldn't do that if he was weaker or if he was getting weaker, since Goku later got even stronger as a Ssj):





Happens TWICE:





Beerus knows that Goku can surpass his limits naturally.

Beerus tells Goku the case:





"I thought your time was up"

Implying he never got the slightest bit weaker at all.

Goku realizes he changed after being notified by Beerus:







Goku bluntly confesses that he doesn't feel weaker at all:





Beerus explains it:









With all of that mentioned, we can easily conclude that Goku's Power never got weaker at all. Despite the form being lost (this time limit was retconned in the tournament of power arc), the power completely merged with Goku. Thus, the power itself remained inside him, rather than the form in general. No power was lost, and Goku is still prone to getting stronger and breaking his initial limits further more.

Proof of Goku getting even further stronger is when he powered up to fight a powered-up Beerus and manages to trade blows with him, and enjoys the fight with Beerus:











The Narrator then confirms that only at this point did both characters perform a "true godly battle" rather than before (He also added to the notion "fighting idiots" or along this phrase, to emphasize their crazy lust for battle and how dense they are when it comes to usual critical manners, which is evident when Beerus said to Goku that his ignorance or foolishness has rubbed him off already):











The episode titles prove this:



They start all the way from "show me the power of Super Saiyan God!" which is the initial point, then we are shown that they are still going on with it, given we know Goku gets stronger through battle, then "Goku, Go Surpass Super Saiyan God!":



It is honestly evident enough here that they're trying to imply to us that Goku got stronger as a Ssj.

That's why later on, when Beerus decides to get even stronger and increase his strength, he starts soloing Goku, but he rises up telling Beerus it isn't over yet:



Despite having said before that he went Full Power:



This is excluding Later arcs which prove it further

Movie logic has Bojack > M8 Broly, and Bojack got two shoted by SSJ2 Gohan whereas Cell survived multiple blows.

Movies do not scale with Canon material at all, so it's easily arguable that Ssj2 Gohan from Movie 9 > his canon counterpart.

It's been argued long ago that Broly > Cell. Is that your only argument? If so, tell me so I can start my own

M10 Broly is > SPC though. Broly is said to be the strongest saiyan on M10 and supposedly the movie was written before it was revealed Gohan was rusty, so Broly wrecked a Gohan as strong as CG Gohan.

Agreed with this one

[dragonball0900]

Why it's quite firm? We only know three things about Cell Games Piccolo:
1) He thinks Semi Cell is an unrecheable power.
2) He's nowhere near 50% Goku nor Vegeta and Trunks.
3) Although he's standing, he cannot fight the Cell Jrs.
And other three things about Boo Arc Piccolo:
1) Gohan and Vegeta have no issue with fighting him in base
2) He's weaker than Kaioshin, who's weaker than Babidi's goons (Implied by both Shin and Babidi)
3) He's trash compared to the Base Saiyans, who are marvelous energy.

Nothing implies Post Rosat Piccolo is stronger than Base Saiyans at all. Even Super implies Piccolo is weaker than Base Saiyans when Tagoma says Gohan is the most dangerous Z Fighter without knowing he's able to transform.

Vegeta not considering #18 nor Piccolo's just sounds dumb. It's not like he thinks the tournament is going to be saiyans only.

Gohan and Vegeta no issue of fighting him in base? That's not true at all. You are just assuming that they have no issue with him in base (and I already told you why I think that), but logically they would.

Kaioshin is not weaker than Babidi's men. He's just scared of them because of their reputation. He didn't know how strong they were. He only knew them. Babidi also never implied Kaioshin was weaker than them at all. And neither Piccolo or Kaioshin are trash against base saiyans, Kaioshin just underestimated them, that's what happened. It's ilogical for someone stronger than Piccolo, who is way stronger than Frieza, to be nothing against saiyans in base. You are clearly overestimating the base saiyans here.

Piccolo sparred with a Super Saiyan during the three years, so of course his gains would be that high. The only other time he got insanely stronger was at Kaio's, which is clearly an exception to the rule. Piccolo gained more in a week than Goku in 5 months or so.

But the gains were still high. Also Piccolo is smart in training, he has Kami on his inside since he fused with him, he would certainly know ways of getting stronger. I can't see why his gains wouldn't be the same as Vegeta's.

The Kamehameha by itself was already a big deal, a Super Kamehameha should be way more stronger than the average Kamehameha.

Nail standing against Freeza is the same reason Piccolo could stand against the Jrs. Cell never told his Jrs to not kill them, they were holding back because they wanted to.

But that's because at the time Piccolo was the strongest thing along with Goku. Yeah, Piccolo has resistance, but there have been several cases along the series that show the saiyans to have way more resistance. Here is a big good example, Piccolo only resisted a super kamehameha from Goku, but Vegeta (saiyan arc) resisted a Kamehameha Kaioken X4, which is way more impressive.

Not really the same reason, as you said, the Cell Jrs were doing what they wanted, Nail was standing since Frieza was begging for him for the dragon balls, that was more important.

The premisse about Tired Goku is that he has absolutely nothing in the tank. He could be like Freeza level for all we know, the only sure thing is that he's > Earthlings.

The Cell Jr didn't put Piccolo down because he didn't want to. It was only three pages long, definitely less than whatever pages Gohan fought Recoome (I think it was 6 or so?). Durability could be a factor here, but Gohan being a kid (Thus not having the same resilience as an adult) and Piccolo being durable as hell too nullifies the saiyan durability. It's possible Piccolo was just put down like Goku but got back on his feet too. Goku's much weaker than the Jrs and wasn't instantly put to sleep either.

Tired Goku at Frieza level? That's actually the first time I ever heard that. I mean, can you see Frieza holding his own against a Tired Perfect Cell like Tired Goku did? I don't think so. If Goku was that weak in tired state, then anyone could've defeated Cell (except the humans obviously) at the time, but they were all acting like they couldn't.

You are only assuming that's the reason why Piccolo wasn't put down. Now, I will mention that in the manga, it says that Vegeta and Trunks were able to fight barely against them, but the way the translation is, it's more to the fact that they are the first examples that come to mind. Which means Piccolo is just not that far behind them. I mean, if Piccolo was that weak as you are saying, then why didn't the manga cover put him in the ground like Goku and the earthlings? Tell me why. He was shown standing for a reason you know? Again, namekians are not as durable as saiyans, and there are various examples on the series to show why. And you are assuming again that Piccolo was put down. If he was only shown standing in the very few pages we know of him fighting the Cell Jrs, then that's the only thing we know, that he was able to stand against them, I don't see why the need to put things far than that.

It was stated that Piccolo was suppressed, but no note was made about the earthlings.

Yeah, but they could've been suppressed like him. Why wouldn't they? Android 20 can't gauge the strength very well and that's what it was shown.

That's not enough to prove she was suppressed during the whole fight though. #18 can gauge Mighty Mask's strength by his movements and just one shot him. Instead, she's locked in combat with him and gets almost all of her hits blocked.

It's not impossible for Android 18 to be suppressed, she could've needed some time to gauge Mighty Mask's strength for all we know. I can't see why you are trying to give logic to something contradictory to the official statements we are given about base saiyans, Piccolo, etc.

Super follow the Anime, which has Pure Boo being the strongest Boo. Vegeta also says Goku turned into the #1, Beerus says none of the Z Fighters were as entertaining as Goku, everybody is suppressed Goku was two shoted, etc. Goku's the strongest Z Fighter by BoGs.

Super follows the anime, but the anime also have SSJ3 Goku loosing against Buutenks, meaning that Buutenks is stronger than Kid Buu in the anime. SSJ3 Goku is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, but as said before, fusions could be using different multipliers, I don't see why that changes anything about base Goku being inferior to Frieza.

Everyone was surprised Goku was defeated, but as I said before, fusions could be different to normal beings. Again I don't see your logic of trying to change things that are officialy stated.

I actually poorly worded myself back them. I was going to say they (#18, Shin, Piccolo) were portrayed as weaker than the Base Saiyans.

I don't see how the Z implications doesn't outweight Super's. Of course, it wasn't a direct statement, but they were several implications and even a feat (Trunks vs #18) which is really hard to justify IMO.

No, they are not. You just think they are when they simply don't. Base saiyans < Frieza, as I said before, it's not contradictory. Nothing in Z proves anything at all, and everything you showed to me were just misinterpretations.

New match:

- Super Vegeta (Cell Games) vs. Shin (Boo arc)

Kaioshin wins easily against SSJ Vegeta. But, if Vegeta ever decides to transform into ASSJ there, then he wins after a very good fight.