Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SayianBeyondGod]

Ssj2 Kefla was not impressive at all, and was only stated to possibly be superior to gokus level in 110. If we take this into account, then a more powered up jiren is way above Kefla ssj2, and current goku and vegeta were doing quite well against jiren..

While I diagree with the former as it's more so implied that she surpassed SSBKK Goku, even in episode 122 prior to Jiren starting to use more power SSB Vegeta implies Jiren has strongest energy he encountered, hence the same Jiren he fought was above SSJ2 Kefla whom Vegeta already sensed the Ki of. If we were to take Vegeta other statement literal in which he claims Jiren was faster and stronger when he fought Goku (most likely UI), then even in the Jiren in episode 109-110 was stronger than SSJ2 Kefla. It should prove that UI Goku even in episode 110 that rivaled Jiren would be above SSJ2 Kefla which makes sense, as she was being overpowered by a more fatigue version while claiming "impossible" when grasping her stomach in pain and struggling to get up, so her expectations were exceeded. The begins to happen once his ki aura ignites and saying he's getting the hang of this after she mocks his punches. In the same time she was struggling with his speed. It just shows how much fatigue UI Goku held back against Kefla earlier in the fight, so this reinforces the fact piccolo was referring to SSBKK Goku. I think this can come to show how powerful Vegeta is in SSB alone, and I would say he'll be relevant to SSJ2 Kefla, seeing he was able to get critical hits on a more powerful Jiren.

If people are really going to believe she twice the spirit bomb, then I guess the final flash would be much higher than that. But I think the fact that suppress Jiren had held enough power back rival the spirit bomb as he was stalemating UI Goku whom was on that level or when he showed effort to push the spirit bomb even further proves SSJ2 Kefla wasn't truly Spirit bomb level.

If you didn't get what I'm saying. To put it simple, that UI Goku(spirit bomb level) and Jiren was at relative power during episode 110. Vegeta calls Jiren when using less power than prior while having the strongest ki he felt or higher than SSJ2 Kefla. Hence that Jiren was using inferior power to UI Goku in episode 110 yet surpass SSJ2 Kefla. Just in case you didn't follow what I was trying to imply.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Now that Jiren is finally using 2% of his power we may find out just how far above the GoD level he is.

Yeah, that was overstimating/overhyping character exactly means... I mean there is no way for character to use aura/flare and expelling a least a bit of trouble to be less then 5%. For me it is just bad writting or incomming nerf for this character's power or retconn(silent retconn) so people may miss it(at least kids). This is just essentialy how toei and his writters operate/do.

I would say that the Jiren with red aura was close to 10%(most likely less) and he was dominating slightly against goku and vegeta going at him. However then he flared his aura two times at least once in special just before limit breaker form fade out before he could connect his punch with jiren and other time when he crashed into big rock so he forced his way by powering up through it. For me all Jiren's power limit occurences:

[*] 109 episode Jiren was 5% when he was pushing back Genki Dama of fatigued/tired goku. Most likely it will retconn(it is comming guys, do not fool ourselves) that he was using even to 10% but easily pushed Genkidama back.
[*] 110 episode Jiren was using 5%-10% and in the end when he was forced to blast fading limit breaker form goku he used up to 10% for second.
[*] Against hit Jiren most likely was using around 2%, and then 5% when he pushed through genki dama.
[*] 122 episode Jiren was also most likely supressed to 5% against both ssb goku and ssb vegeta
[*] 123 episode Jiren was maybe be between 2%-5% and when Jiren use red glowing aura then he may be up to 10%
[*] 124 episode Jiren keep using between 5%-10% and once he powered up/was showing hint of his true power it may be between 20%-50% by showing off his casual punch packing so much power.

Before unleashing full power Jiren is just a bit less then 10%. Watch my words guys, but Jiren >=10x 20xssb kk goku. UI goku against Kefla may be at least 20% of Jiren to 30% max. Anyway less then 50% so Jiren could comfortably ignore him.

Its not overhyping, it’s mostlikely reality. Remember beerus slightly struggling with SSG Goku? He was only using a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of 1%. Jiren might as well.

[Green]

Honestly the whole Jiren being suppressed discussion is strange. Judging from what Vegeta said, Jiren, who was holding back more than he did againts UI Goku, had the biggest Ki he ever faced meaning he was stronger than Merged Zamasu, who is on Vegetto Blue's general level? Later on Jiren powers up and Goku+Vegeta push him back. Next ep he supposedly shows off his power and they manage to not get wrecked...?

We also have Kefla who's on UI Goku's level and yet Jiren's serious punch was stronger than her final attack... too bad said punches couldn't even incapacitate Goku. Now Jiren resorts to use his glare in order to stop SSBluer Vegeta's casual Final Flash meaning it's also stronger than Kefla's blast (which let me remind you could defeat UI Goku)?

[Kenneth La Torre]

Honestly the whole Jiren being suppressed discussion is strange. Judging from what Vegeta said, Jiren, who was holding back more than he did againts UI Goku, had the biggest Ki he ever faced meaning he was stronger than Merged Zamasu, who is on Vegetto Blue's general level? Later on Jiren powers up and Goku+Vegeta push him back. Next ep he supposedly shows off his power and they manage to not get wrecked...?

We also have Kefla who's on UI Goku's level and yet Jiren's serious punch was stronger than her final attack... too bad said punches couldn't even incapacitate Goku. Now Jiren resorts to use his glare in order to stop SSBluer Vegeta's casual Final Flash meaning it's also stronger than Kefla's blast (which let me remind you could defeat UI Goku)?

I’m not sure what you saw in the next episode preview, but... vegeta and goku were pretty much dead in the ground near the end, suggesting that jiren demolished them both, and android 17 was trying to protect them.

Jirens 100% is going to be saved for UI goku. That much is a given.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Couldn't it also be that characters are reading into the effects of suppression itself to gauge how large of a Ki Jiren has?

[brett wheeler]

Honestly the whole Jiren being suppressed discussion is strange. Judging from what Vegeta said, Jiren, who was holding back more than he did againts UI Goku, had the biggest Ki he ever faced meaning he was stronger than Merged Zamasu, who is on Vegetto Blue's general level? Later on Jiren powers up and Goku+Vegeta push him back. Next ep he supposedly shows off his power and they manage to not get wrecked...?

We also have Kefla who's on UI Goku's level and yet Jiren's serious punch was stronger than her final attack... too bad said punches couldn't even incapacitate Goku. Now Jiren resorts to use his glare in order to stop SSBluer Vegeta's casual Final Flash meaning it's also stronger than Kefla's blast (which let me remind you could defeat UI Goku)?

I’m not sure what you saw in the next episode preview, but... vegeta and goku were pretty much dead in the ground near the end, suggesting that jiren demolished them both, and android 17 was trying to protect them.

Jirens 100% is going to be saved for UI goku. That much is a given.

well he apparently is at 100% next episode ( weather he needed it or not is up in the air but ya know ) when he fights a tired Ussb vegeta, ssbkk goku, and 17 and beats the ever living piss out of all of them, this says a lot about jiren to take on 3 ssb lvl fighters like there fodder is something unprecedented, even toppo ( while winning ) couldn't demolish 2 ssb lvl fighters at once like this better yet he couldnt demolish ff frieza and 17 together at once while jiren no sells 17, ussb, and ssbkk*20 like nothing, over all its pretty apparent jiren is a good amount above GoD lvl, as for 17 protecting them if he is he wont be able to do it well because well its jiren lol.

[Bullza]

Vegetto stopped Zamasu's Ki attack with one hand and dominated him during the fight, mocking him several times.

What about Zamasu taking the Final Kamehameha point blank with no damage?

Initial Goku UI has only the same power as Jiren suppressed.

And because a suppressed Jiren is more powerful than Merged Zamasu then so must Ultra Instinct Goku if he was able to match him? That would be a good point I suppose but that same suppressed Jiren must have more power than Super Saiyan 2 Kefla as well who was stronger than Ultra Instinct Goku from Episode 110 so maybe Goku wasn't as close as it seemed.

[Green]

Couldn't it also be that characters are reading into the effects of suppression itself to gauge how large of a Ki Jiren has?

That could very well be the case, they can sense he isn't being serious yet he's emitting so much energy and kicking their asses left and right.

[SayianBeyondGod]

Honestly the whole Jiren being suppressed discussion is strange. Judging from what Vegeta said, Jiren, who was holding back more than he did againts UI Goku, had the biggest Ki he ever faced meaning he was stronger than Merged Zamasu, who is on Vegetto Blue's general level? Later on Jiren powers up and Goku+Vegeta push him back. Next ep he supposedly shows off his power and they manage to not get wrecked...?

We also have Kefla who's on UI Goku's level and yet Jiren's serious punch was stronger than her final attack... too bad said punches couldn't even incapacitate Goku. Now Jiren resorts to use his glare in order to stop SSBluer Vegeta's casual Final Flash meaning it's also stronger than Kefla's blast (which let me remind you could defeat UI Goku)?

I think Kefla is closer to SSBKK than UI level. Relevant to your former, Jiren whom was suppressed more than when fight UI Goku was said to have the strongest Ki by Vegeta whom was sensing the fight between Goku and Kefla when distracted. It make sense if we factor in her just surpassing Goku's normal to x10 kaioken in SSJ2 but gets overpowered physically by UI once his aura emits with a power up. Not to mention Vados implying SSB at fullpower may be too much for her SSJ. Her full powered blast was a threat to fatigue UI Goku, but again characters can exceed their limits when bloodlusted just like Vegeta and his final flash. I wonder if UI having little stamina left could be a factor to her final attack being a threat.

I don't think Merged Zamasu was on pair with Vegetto as he was being overwhelmed but he was relevant or in that ballpark if that's what you mean by level.

[TheUltimateNinja]

For what it's worth most other battleboards place current Goku, Vegeta and Kefla an entire tier above Vegetto Blue and Merged Zamasu.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Honestly the whole Jiren being suppressed discussion is strange. Judging from what Vegeta said, Jiren, who was holding back more than he did againts UI Goku, had the biggest Ki he ever faced meaning he was stronger than Merged Zamasu, who is on Vegetto Blue's general level? Later on Jiren powers up and Goku+Vegeta push him back. Next ep he supposedly shows off his power and they manage to not get wrecked...?

We also have Kefla who's on UI Goku's level and yet Jiren's serious punch was stronger than her final attack... too bad said punches couldn't even incapacitate Goku. Now Jiren resorts to use his glare in order to stop SSBluer Vegeta's casual Final Flash meaning it's also stronger than Kefla's blast (which let me remind you could defeat UI Goku)?

I’m not sure what you saw in the next episode preview, but... vegeta and goku were pretty much dead in the ground near the end, suggesting that jiren demolished them both, and android 17 was trying to protect them.

Jirens 100% is going to be saved for UI goku. That much is a given.

well he apparently is at 100% next episode ( weather he needed it or not is up in the air but ya know ) when he fights a tired Ussb vegeta, ssbkk goku, and 17 and beats the ever living piss out of all of them, this says a lot about jiren to take on 3 ssb lvl fighters like there fodder is something unprecedented, even toppo ( while winning ) couldn't demolish 2 ssb lvl fighters at once like this better yet he couldnt demolish ff frieza and 17 together at once while jiren no sells 17, ussb, and ssbkk*20 like nothing, over all its pretty apparent jiren is a good amount above GoD lvl, as for 17 protecting them if he is he wont be able to do it well because well its jiren lol.

Nothing about jiren going 100%. Just that he is showing his true powers. They would have said full power otherwise.

[Bullza]

Does them making a big deal that there was someone above a God of Destruction at the Tournament of Power mean that Merged Zamasu was not?

Would that be reason enough to put Toppo and Vegeta ahead of him?

[brett wheeler]

I’m not sure what you saw in the next episode preview, but... vegeta and goku were pretty much dead in the ground near the end, suggesting that jiren demolished them both, and android 17 was trying to protect them.

Jirens 100% is going to be saved for UI goku. That much is a given.

well he apparently is at 100% next episode ( weather he needed it or not is up in the air but ya know ) when he fights a tired Ussb vegeta, ssbkk goku, and 17 and beats the ever living piss out of all of them, this says a lot about jiren to take on 3 ssb lvl fighters like there fodder is something unprecedented, even toppo ( while winning ) couldn't demolish 2 ssb lvl fighters at once like this better yet he couldnt demolish ff frieza and 17 together at once while jiren no sells 17, ussb, and ssbkk*20 like nothing, over all its pretty apparent jiren is a good amount above GoD lvl, as for 17 protecting them if he is he wont be able to do it well because well its jiren lol.

Nothing about jiren going 100%. Just that he is showing his true powers. They would have said full power otherwise.

well then thats just raises the question of how strong is he if at anything less than 100% he can run threw 3 ssb lvl fighters, at this rate I dont see why anybody puts any other character above jiren ( except obviously angels grand pries zeno guards and zeno but I'm not counting those ).

[Green]

Does them making a big deal that there was someone above a God of Destruction at the Tournament of Power mean that Merged Zamasu was not?

Would that be reason enough to put Toppo and Vegeta ahead of him?

I don't know, if we go by the manga Vegetto was GoD level and maybe even beyond, but Merged Zamasu there was relatively weak, GoD Candidate at best. All this emphasis on surpassing the gods may indeed stem from Toriyama's outline which didn't have MZ as strong as the Toei version.

It could also be that Toei never intended Potara fusions to be on GoD level in the first place unlike Toyotaro.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Does them making a big deal that there was someone above a God of Destruction at the Tournament of Power mean that Merged Zamasu was not?

Would that be reason enough to put Toppo and Vegeta ahead of him?

I don't know, if we go by the manga Vegetto was GoD level and maybe even beyond, but Merged Zamasu there was relatively weak, GoD Candidate at best. All this emphasis on surpassing the gods may indeed stem from Toriyama's outline which didn't have MZ as strong as the Toei version.

It could also be that Toei never intended Potara fusions to be on GoD level in the first place unlike Toyotaro.

It might also be that the Potara Fusions of the previous story arc were simply AT the level of the Hakaishin, and this arc is about surpassing even that level.

[Bullza]

Going by the manga, Merged Zamasu is obviously nowhere GoD level. The anime may portray him as being much stronger in comparison as he was more on Vegito's level than Goku's but I wonder if the intention is still supposed to be there regardless.

I wouldn't really have too much of an issue with Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta being above Merged Zamasu because Sword of Hope Trunks was.

Seems a bit much to say he'd be above Vegito though.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Going by the manga, Merged Zamasu is obviously nowhere GoD level. The anime may portray him as being much stronger in comparison as he was more on Vegito's level than Goku's but I wonder if the intention is still supposed to be there regardless.

I wouldn't really have too much of an issue with Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta being above Merged Zamasu because Sword of Hope Trunks was.

Seems a bit much to say he'd be above Vegito though.

I don’t think it’s far fetch to imagine new ssb vegeta to be at least on vegito a level. I mean, look at ssj vegito in the Buu arc, strongest fighter ever, vastly surpassed by SSG Goku in the next arc. But I wouldn’t put this vegeta at ssb vegito level, but he is definitely close

[Black Hawk]

Going by the manga, Merged Zamasu is obviously nowhere GoD level. The anime may portray him as being much stronger in comparison as he was more on Vegito's level than Goku's but I wonder if the intention is still supposed to be there regardless.

I wouldn't really have too much of an issue with Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta being above Merged Zamasu because Sword of Hope Trunks was.

Seems a bit much to say he'd be above Vegito though.

Additionally, in Toriyama's draft, Merged Zamas wasn't too strong for SSJ Blue Gokū and Vegeta to take on together, so I can't really see Toyotarō or Toei pushing Merged Zamas from slightly above SSJ Blue to going toe-to-toe with a destroyer. I think, once the manga catches up with its rendition of the Tournament of Power's conclusion, it'll give us an even better idea of where SSJ Blue, Completed SSJ Blue, and Merged Zamas by extension stack up against a destroyer (Top) and beyond a destroyer (Jiren).

With regard to SSJ Royal Blue, I agree that it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to place it above the likes of Merged Zamas with that in mind. I'm not really sure how SSJ Royal Blue stacks up against SSJ Blue Vegetto, though.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Going by the manga, Merged Zamasu is obviously nowhere GoD level. The anime may portray him as being much stronger in comparison as he was more on Vegito's level than Goku's but I wonder if the intention is still supposed to be there regardless.

I wouldn't really have too much of an issue with Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta being above Merged Zamasu because Sword of Hope Trunks was.

Seems a bit much to say he'd be above Vegito though.

Additionally, in Toriyama's draft, Merged Zamas wasn't too strong for SSJ Blue Gokū and Vegeta to take on together, so I can't really see Toyotarō or Toei pushing Merged Zamas from slightly above SSJ Blue to going toe-to-toe with a destroyer. I think, once the manga catches up with its rendition of the Tournament of Power's conclusion, it'll give us an even better idea of where SSJ Blue, Completed SSJ Blue, and Merged Zamas by extension stack up against a destroyer (Top) and beyond a destroyer (Jiren).

With regard to SSJ Royal Blue, I agree that it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to place it above the likes of Merged Zamas with that in mind. I'm not really sure how SSJ Royal Blue stacks up against SSJ Blue Vegetto, though.

Its hard to say, but it’s very possible that royal blue vegeta is in the same realm of power as ssb vegito, who in turn is in the realm of power as a hakaishin. We can’t get any more specific than that. But if you want to take visuals as a gauge, royal blue vegeta did the same thing as vegito did against zamasu, which was that Ki infused punch that vegito used as his last resort, and vegeta used to negate hakai energy. But I don’t want to go that far.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Current Goku and Vegeta are far above Vegetto since he wasn't that much stronger than MZ who is in turn inferior to a heavily suppressed Jiren.