Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

[DiegoBrando]

Its just funny when people complain about too many positive opinions and that their criticism is always silenced, when its usually the opposite. Detractors of Super get way too serious. As you said Its a cartoon. Does it really matter that people enjoy Super and are willing to ignore some flaws to enjoy it? Its not like Super is legit awful or anything. Its popular for a reason

I'm sure the Kardashians are popular for a reason too. What reason that may be, only god knows.

So youre saying Super is the Kardashians of anime. How many here would agree with that, or disagree

No, I'm saying popularity does not equal quality.

[ZenkaiBoosts]

I'm sure the Kardashians are popular for a reason too. What reason that may be, only god knows.

So youre saying Super is the Kardashians of anime. How many here would agree with that, or disagree

No, I'm saying popularity does not equal quality.

Of course thats true

But that doesnt mean something popular cant also be of high quality

You ever hear about the game The Last of Us? Its incredibly popular. That doesnt mean it sucks because its popular. Last of Us is widely considered one of the greatest games of all time and it became popular because of its quality

[Cetra]

You ever hear about the game The Last of Us? Its incredibly popular. That doesnt mean it sucks because its popular. Last of Us is widely considered one of the greatest games of all time and it became popular because of its quality

To be fair, as much as I love the game myself, it is very popular because it is realistically looking and an action game with some story investment. Gameplay-wise the quality is even more debatable than the rest. And that is coming from a guy who has played the game like 15 times, even on Grounded +. So it might not be the very best example of quality because even there there are different layers of quality that can be discussed.

[Doctor.]

Of course thats true

So what's your point? If you acknowledge that something popular can also be bad, what are you getting at? You're admitting we can't use popularity as a way to gauge a series' quality.

[DiegoBrando]

So youre saying Super is the Kardashians of anime. How many here would agree with that, or disagree

No, I'm saying popularity does not equal quality.

Of course thats true

But that doesnt mean something popular cant also be of high quality

And nobody said otherwise.

[Xehanort]

How does build-up make him mysterious, when we already know the mystery around Jiren is that his really strong?

When Freeza was being built up on Namek, they built him up as being really strong, same goes for Jiren. However, how does this build-up actually establish a mystery around say Jiren's motivations or Jirens backstory, why should we care about those things? The anime doesn't provide a set-up for the audience to learn more about Jiren's character other than the fact his really strong.

It's not the fact there's a buildup that makes him mysterious, but how it was executed. He's shown as a warrior that's unbelievably powerful, but what really makes him interesting form the get-go is that he achieved a level that's possibly beyond a GoD. That alone makes him fascinating in my opinion, since we've been told that GoD level is something U7 fighters weren't even close to achieving before UI appeared. And the fact he's very emotionless suggests he had somekind of backstory, and the fact he wants a wish that "lies beyond strength" all create this mystery around him because you're never really told any specific detail or given any insight into his actual character. It's this unknown powerfull persona they built up until now, it's pretty clear.

You compare this to how they built Frieza up, which is ridiculous. Frieza was excellently executed and was an interesting character from the get go, not just because he's really strong but because the glimpses we were given payed off. He was born as this perfect being, that no one could ever possibly stand a chance against him which made him this huge egomaniac. But then he discovered the Saiyan race, which was known for growing their strength extremely fast. This scared Frieza, and that's why he blew up Planet Vegeta and that's why Vegeta is so terrified of him. I mean, Frieza and Jiren aren't even in the same ballpark!

Your first stamement is also said in indsight, we didn't know he only had his strength when the arc began.

[Wizardon]

What's the reference to Namek with Frieza this episode? I can't seem to remember, but I've heard it mentioned a few times.

The whole "You will die by my hand" bit is pretty much what yells at Goku before Goku just calls him an idiot and blows him up before he escapes.

[VegettoEX]

Aside from posts like this trying to sanitize healthy discussions, this community is good.

When you registered to be a member of this community, you agreed to a certain set of rules. If you are not interested in following them, we are equally not willing to have you as a community member. We have a very hard line in the sand regarding harassment, disparaging comments, and encouraging, yes, healthy discussion.

These kinds of blanket statements about communities are, quite frankly, asinine. For every claim, you will find an equally-definitive claim to the exact opposite. These can't both be true at the same time, and of course never are. Let's all do our best to recognize that.

I stopped here. I'm obsessed. What? What are you even talking about. Youre going to "clear up" my wrong opinion and ignorance now

Can other mods chime in? Him writing that to me was very confrontational, antagonistic, aggressive, which I'm sure is against the guidelines.

But I'm now afraid to even report him because Vegetto legit gave me a warning for reporting a post. He has something against me and always targets me

Can another mod handle this

I have no idea who you are. If you are receiving multiple account strikes and moderation notes, this should tell you something.

This conversation regarding moderation is now over, and now returns to your regularly-scheduled episode discussion.

The side-conversation about popularity vs. artistic merit is certainly a fascinating and valid one, but not appropriate for this episode discussion thread. By all means please create a new, separate thread and have that conversation!

[TheDipDap1234]

Also, I don't really want to mention it, since it's a superficial aspect of the scene, but #18's reaction had no weight because of how lifeless her face looked and how stiff the animation was.

It's a shame, really. 18's voice actress did a great job in that scene. With better animation and art, it could have been one of the most emotional scenes in the show. The sacrifice just happened way too fast, and ended way too quickly. They should have also shown Krillin's reaction to the sacrifice, since 17 was his brother-in-law afterall.

[TheOtherDude]

After Vegeta nearly self destructed and was completely out of energy, he was still powering up to SSB this episode. That was highly illogical.

Considering all that, Vegeta staying in base form in 128 is a great correction and very logical

Goku started running into stamina issues because his first battle with Jiren

1. Remember Frieza gave Goku energy

2. Goku got Omen again against Kefla

3. Its been implied Goku has been getting zenkai boosts

Now I'm not saying its tge best logic, but its def more logical then whats been happening with Vegeta's situation imo

In what way ways do you feel Jiren was nerfed? I've made posts adressing that

It’s logical if you keep in mind about how the manga was set up. You seem to be obsessed with Toei having an outline to follow so let me clear this up.

I stopped here. I'm obsessed. What? What are you even talking about. Youre going to "clear up" my wrong opinion and ignorance now

Can other mods chime in? Him writing that to me was very confrontational, antagonistic, aggressive, which I'm sure is against the guidelines.

But I'm now afraid to even report him because Vegetto legit gave me a warning for reporting a post. He has something against me and always targets me

Can another mod handle this

Now that the issue has been resolved, do you care to address my statements?

[Cypher]

It's a shame, really. 18's voice actress did a great job in that scene. With better animation and art, it could have been one of the most emotional scenes in the show. The sacrifice just happened way too fast, and ended way too quickly. They should have also shown Krillin's reaction to the sacrifice, since 17 was his brother-in-law afterall.

Agreed; it was rather a wasted opportunity. I must mention, though, that I have a difficult time grasping the nature of 17 and 18's relationship- naturally in the Cell arc they were attached at the hip more or less, and despite their sort-of bickering (which I believe was played up slightly in the dub? Not 100% sure), they clearly came as a pair, so to speak (well, a trio with 16, but you get the point!). After 17 was resurrected though, they just... haven't been in contact much? I'd have thought now they're free to live 'human' lives again, they'd spend some of their time in each other's company, but it seems according to Toriyama '17 called once and mentioned he was a park ranger and had some kids'. I guess they spent all their time together under Gero's thumb, so might want their independence, but it always seemed kind of weird to me, at least at the back of my mind.

[Amaterasu]

Also, I don't really want to mention it, since it's a superficial aspect of the scene, but #18's reaction had no weight because of how lifeless her face looked and how stiff the animation was.

It's a shame, really. 18's voice actress did a great job in that scene. With better animation and art, it could have been one of the most emotional scenes in the show. The sacrifice just happened way too fast, and ended way too quickly. They should have also shown Krillin's reaction to the sacrifice, since 17 was his brother-in-law afterall.

I'm actually wondering why he isn't sitting next to 18 to lend her a shoulder to cry on for example, really weird decision to not have them sit next to each other.

[Michsi]

Also, I don't really want to mention it, since it's a superficial aspect of the scene, but #18's reaction had no weight because of how lifeless her face looked and how stiff the animation was.

It's a shame, really. 18's voice actress did a great job in that scene. With better animation and art, it could have been one of the most emotional scenes in the show. The sacrifice just happened way too fast, and ended way too quickly. They should have also shown Krillin's reaction to the sacrifice, since 17 was his brother-in-law afterall.

I'm actually wondering why he isn't sitting next to 18 to lend her a shoulder to cry on for example, really weird decision to not have them sit next to each other.

They're seated in the order of elimination. Krillin was the first one out and 18 among the last. You could see him move to sit next to her in 128, but I somehow doubt it. She doesn't seem like the sort that would really need the consolation, at least not while the fight is still on-going.

[thegamer23]

I'm actually worried about Vegeta for next epsiode.

What else can push Goku to
[spoiler]unlock the full potential of Ultra Instinct[/spoiler]

if not something very bad happening to Vegeta?

[Vegeta_Sama]

Seeing my man 17 die this episode made me think of something: when Jiren is attacking,why can't someone lower their ki so much, to the point where they get killed? It would disqualify Jiren and ensure Universe 7's victory, easy. That would be the most logical thing to do

[fadeddreams5]

Copied and pasted from the other thread:
The problem with Jiren's backstory isn't that it's generic (it is, btw). The issue here is when you realize what show you are watching: Dragon Ball. You know, the series where a baby is sent to Earth, clonks his head, and becomes a martial artist, training with multiple masters until he learns about his background as a member of an extinct warrior race, and eventually fulfills a prophecy from their culture, becoming a legendary warrior that is said to be virtually indestructable.

Goku is not the only person who trains and if anything it seems Jiren started training at a much stronger age than Goku.

The series where the prince of said race has all his people slaughtered by a space dictator, is held in bondage, and trains most of his life to become the strongest in the universe.

Vegeta only started to train after Freeza killed him.

Case in point, training has always been a major theme in this franchise. We understand that saiyans are a unique race that are genetically built to fight. Hence, they are unusually strong. So then, why is it that Jiren, a seemingly generic alien, is able to train, but unlike everyone else, can surpass even the gods and be unaffected by time itself (I still can't get over that)? Because he really, really likes being strong?

Ah yes the saiyans,whose average warrior was weaker than the generic Freeza soldier and weaker than Namekian farmers from the Dragon Clan(pretty much the equivalent of a white mage).Goku and Vegeta,just like Freeza and King Cold were the exception not the rule.

Jiren is most likely a prodigy just like all the other 1 million prodigies we had in DB and he has been training at a younger age than Goku.
I don't see how you cannot accept that when we have cases like child who was born from a weaker than average Saiyan and a human(pretty much the weakest race in db)somehow giving birth to a child that only trained for 5 years in his life being as strong as he is.

I never said Goku is the only person who trains. On the contrary, I'm saying everyone and their mothers train in this series, so what makes Jiren so special? It is never stated anywhere that he was a prodigy. In fact, he got mopped by some unknown villain several times over. You could say he's trained for many more years than Goku, but then... why is he superior to Hit too, a man with a thousand years of experience and mastery over ****ing time itself?

Saiyans have higher fighting potential than any race. The ones from Universe 7 were just stupid. Goku himself is the biggest proof of this; he was the lowest of the low, and now he's the highest of the high.

While it's never stated whether Vegeta trained or not before Frieza killed him, if we take into consideration other DB works, we can see a child Vegeta training with saibamen in the Bardock special, easily disposing them.

[OLKv3]

This was an action packed episode and I really enjoyed it. If I had to nitpick though
Goku's brilliant deduction of "Jiren's weakness is he takes damage when he's unguarded!" was just hilarious. Like really?
Jiren's powerup didn't change anything at all. The fight was exactly how it was before the powerup. Jiren on the defensive and then beating them up with counter attacks
17's death felt anti climatic. That might've been the point of it though

[Polyphase Avatron]

- Can 17 sense his ki or is he just reacting to the visual effects of the transformation?
l

Jiren has normal ki, not god ki. Like Golden Freeza. It is just very big.

I was referring to the fact that 17 can't sense ki at all.

[OLKv3]

- Can 17 sense his ki or is he just reacting to the visual effects of the transformation?
l

Jiren has normal ki, not god ki. Like Golden Freeza. It is just very big.

I was referring to the fact that 17 can't sense ki at all.

17 can sense ki. He probably learned how to do it after the Cell arc.

[Forte224]

One thing that bothered me about this episode was how 18 acted towards 17. She was all sad and upset when he died. This differed from how she acted when Cell absorbed him where she seemed like she could care less. She was more worried about 16 than 17. Couple that with the fact that they state 17 and 18 have rarely kept in touch over the years, and it doesn't make much sense that she all the sudden cares what happens to him so much. I don't know, maybe I'm missing something, but 18 just hasn't been herself for a lot of this ToP.