"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[Torturephile]

DBS 129 Promo - Extended - Extra Scenes
https://twitter.com/DB__ZGTKAISUPER/sta ... 6205255680

That alone looks better than the last few episodes we've had.

[Kenneth La Torre]

https://t.co/ICxqr67aTI

The new Super dragon ball heroes saga featuring jiren Vs MUI goku

[HeroR]

How can people say DBS fails when it more or less breaks the internet everyweek? Also interest in the series wouldn't be high if it "failed" or people didn't care for it. Let's stop this nonesense. It's a success in all departments, DBS Part 3 came out this week already sold really well. RS were temporary out of stock for a short while too. It was #1 seller on Amazon only just dropped to second.

Also RoS Goku Black is currently best seller on AmazonJP under animation goods, came out Thursday.

Because it’s Dragon Ball. No matter the quality people are going to tune in.

Except for GT which failed everywhere when Dragon Ball interest was at its highest here in the US.

[HeroR]

Whenever the next series starts. I hope Toriyama either goes all in or backs off completely . None of this outline crap he’s doing that relies on Toyo and Toei to fill in tons of blanks.

I doubt you are going to get that. Toriyama is 62.

That's plenty young enough to write a story.

It isn't about youth. It's about will. Toei had shown they really don't want to write anything longterm for Dragon Ball without Toriyama. They wanted a Dragon Ball TV series way back in 2007, but Toriyama said no, so we got Dragon Ball Kai and Heroes. Even with Battle of Gods it was more of an anniversary project and they still went and begged Toriyama for input.

Toei has shown over again that they want Toriyama, even if it's a basic outline and I would say it has been a good arrangement. Toei has shown that they're not that original when it comes to idea. Almost all of their original movies ripoff the manga story points to some being outright copied like Lord Slug basically being King Piccolo. GT is also a perfect showcase of Toei trying to recreate Dragon Ball and when that didn't want, they tried to recreate Z to the point that GT didn't really get an original story arc until its last one. Heck, even their original idea for Battle of Gods ripped plot points from Garlic Jr Saga and Baby Saga. What Toei is very good at is filling in details to stuff that has been left vague or uncooked by Toriyama like History Trunks.

[darzap]

Toei has shown over again that they want Toriyama, even if it's a basic outline and I would say it has been a good arrangement. Toei has shown that they're not that original when it comes to idea. Almost all of their original movies ripoff the manga story points to some being outright copied like Lord Slug basically being King Piccolo. GT is also a perfect showcase of Toei trying to recreate Dragon Ball and when that didn't want, they tried to recreate Z to the point that GT didn't really get an original story arc until its last one. Heck, even their original idea for Battle of Gods ripped plot points from Garlic Jr Saga and Baby Saga. What Toei is very good at is filling in details to stuff that has been left vague or uncooked by Toriyama like History Trunks.

Toei is not a person, it is a company. These people can change their minds at any point in time, they can hire or contract new people to do stuff better that was not done well previously. For every person doing something, you can find somebody who does it better, even if they can only do it better because they are younger and more motivated. This is especially true for all DB-writing-related things because lets face it, it left a lot to be desired. There are many people in this community who have a much more reliable knowledge about past Dragon Ball events than what is displayed in the current production and could name 5 major inconsistencies and how they could have been avoided in the writing offhand.

[sintzu]

https://t.co/ICxqr67aTI

The new Super dragon ball heroes saga featuring jiren Vs MUI goku

I wish heroes writers would take over the main series as it seems like they have great ideas.

[Kenneth La Torre]

https://t.co/ICxqr67aTI

The new Super dragon ball heroes saga featuring jiren Vs MUI goku

I wish heroes writers would take over the main series as it seems like they have great ideas.

Agree. Although they need to chill on giving everyone transformations. Sometimes it’s too much

[Hawk9211]

https://t.co/ICxqr67aTI

The new Super dragon ball heroes saga featuring jiren Vs MUI goku

I wish heroes writers would take over the main series as it seems like they have great ideas.

Toyotaro did hero manga for some time?

[HeroR]

Toei is not a person, it is a company. These people can change their minds at any point in time, they can hire or contract new people to do stuff better that was not done well previously. For every person doing something, you can find somebody who does it better, even if they can only do it better because they are younger and more motivated. This is especially true for all DB-writing-related things because lets face it, it left a lot to be desired. There are many people in this community who have a much more reliable knowledge about past Dragon Ball events than what is displayed in the current production and could name 5 major inconsistencies and how they could have been avoided in the writing offhand.

Yes, I know that. I was talking in general. No writer that has worked within Toei or even outside of Toie has done anything really original with Dragon Ball. Even the Battle of Gods movie, which had a different compared to the first 13 movies and GT, basically had the same plot of the Garlic Jr Saga and Baby Saga. The writer of Xenoverse is basically using Only as a template and playing it safe with 'revising Z history with some minor difference'. Even Heroes with all his crap thrown against the wall, recycle ideas all over Dragon Ball with the only thing closed to original being the Demon Realm, which was also taken from Online. In fact, Online is the most original thing to come to Dragon Ball before Battle of Gods and Toriyama supposedly had some involvement with it.

Given that record, why would I just assumed some new writer would come in with this flower of brand new ideas?

So? Just because you can named and point to 'inconsistencies' doesn't mean you can write story. And even then, Super had information that most hardcore fans didn't realized right away like the two robbers from the Saiyanman episode being from the manga of Dragon Ball, but they never showed up in the anime. Also, Toyo who is supposed to be a super fan made an error in the Resurrection 'F' manga that many other supposedly hardcore fans never picked up on. Namely, he had Krillin acknowledged Pilaf and wonder if he was misusing the Dragon Balls again. Thing is, Krillin never met Pilaf, never even once. The cast didn't even know he was involved with King Piccolo, so why would Krillin think of Pilaf?

[Nevaeh]

https://t.co/ICxqr67aTI

The new Super dragon ball heroes saga featuring jiren Vs MUI goku

I wish heroes writers would take over the main series as it seems like they have great ideas.

So the fandom can complain even more about too many transformations and power levels not making sense?

[Nevaeh]

double post

[HeroR]

https://t.co/ICxqr67aTI

The new Super dragon ball heroes saga featuring jiren Vs MUI goku

I wish heroes writers would take over the main series as it seems like they have great ideas.

So the fandom can complain even more about too many transformations and power levels not making sense?

You didn't like the Masked Saiyan fighting evenly with Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta in base form?

[Guesswhoo]

snip

To clarify my comment about "unpleasable fanbases", My intention wasn't to say that they don't exist. They actually very much do exist. Rather, what I meant was that since every sequel/prequel/interquel alienates some portion of the community in some way, all fanbases are, by technicality, never entirely pleasable. Since no fandom is ever totally satisfied, this makes the label of "unpleasable" kind of redundant. A bit pedantic I suppose, but using the term "unpleasable fanbase" also typically carries demeaning generalizing connotations.

I think a more fair and accurate descriptor would be "divided". There is usually something of a prevailing community consensus regarding whether or not a product is considered "good" or "bad". It's generally very easy to tell what that consensus is and all it usually takes is a cursory look into a few communities dedicated to the subject to make it readily apparent. But if one were to come into any given online Dragon Ball community, they'd find the reception to be very mixed - mostly leaning toward positive, but more mixed than a content community usually is on average. I think that this is the problem you're getting at when you said this:

when the fanbase become a broken one and each of the piece gets a non negligible part of support

If I understood your point correctly here, then I think we are in agreement on this - with one caveat. With the community as badly split up as it is, I feel that this is indicative of underlying issues with the series itself rather than fans setting their standards too high. I wouldn't place blame on the fans themselves for having such diametrically opposed opinions on the series. Instead, I feel like the notion of Super not entirely living up to the expectations set up by it's predecessors has weight to it. If it were indeed as faithful to the mechanics of Z as one should expect it to be, I feel like the divisions wouldn't be nearly as stark. There would naturally be the typical amount of people unhappy with it, but the fighting and arguing would be much less pronounced. The community would be a much more calm and pleasant place to be.

Now, if I've discerned your stance on character usage in Super correctly, I believe we're in agreement here as well. Properly utilizing the available cast of characters has been an issue with Dragon Ball in the past. That said, despite many members of the cast losing their prominence over time, they were still occasionally made use of in tertiary roles and most arcs managed to competently juggle a fairly large cast of characters. The problem, as you say, comes from hammering the weaker characters into roles they don't really fit into without ample justification. Inorganically boosting the power of weaker characters to make them viable or having them perform above their weight class causes problems among the community. Many would be perfectly happy to see the other characters return to prominent roles again (if the hype for the Tournament of Power is any indication), The problem comes from not ensuring that the reasons for their inclusion are properly addressed or that their performance abides by the mechanics the series has established. If you can accomplish that, I feel like bringing back characters like Krillin or Tien to fight on the front line again would be more well received.

I maintain my stance on keeping the word "unpleasable" because the DB community being unpleasable is not a product of DBS but a product of the fan themselves. DBS didn't split up people, it just reignited ancient debate on what DB should be, what role different character should have(and each of those character has a loyal and packep up fanbase to them), how the story should flow, power level,... .

Those different part of the fanbase existed way before DBS (the "critics" were already there on the first episode picking it apart without even knowing were the serie would go), they strongly sticked to their preference and Dragon ball iconic status in the anime and manga industry is mostly the reason for those strong desire of appropriation. RESULT ? we are strongly influenced in our critical thinking, doomed to hate it when it doesn't appeal to our very specific preference, the industry doesn't know where to put their head into without risking a backlash and so they stick to blatant Fan Service in an attempt to go with mainstream viewer (thus the strong kids targeting feeling of the ToP arc) because they honestly don't care as long as it is entertaining (and it proved to be successful for now).

Don't get me wrong, having preference is not bad, but when it is as pronounced as within the DB community to the point where every decision is meet with complaining, we have attained the status of "unpleasable fanbase" . Trust me, as long as this status remain, every "world building" (like the new film or Minus) or "world expanding" (like DBS) product coming out of DB that tries to appeal to this already broken community will ultimately be downvoted to oblivion and the producer cannot do a saving thrown because the safe goal doesn't exist anymore. DB will unfortunately stay as the iconic merchandise selling franchise with failed attempt at getting a revitalization of the market and respect for the franchise, It will die of fatigue and not the respectful death it deserves as an important part in opening up the field for the Shonen exploitation (because without exploitation potential, there is no support).

[Ki Breaker]

The old man Good toriyama drew years ago is actually old Goku with UI permanently switched on



With how Toriyama naturally connects stuff brilliantly, this is something I see him pulling off..

[sintzu]

So the fandom can complain even more about too many transformations and power levels not making sense?

I'm talking about the basic plots that they're doing with Fu now and the previous hell arc with Dabura.

Toyotaro did hero manga for some time?

Yeah but it didn't have major stories like it does now.

[HeroR]

I maintain my stance on keeping the word "unpleasable" because the DB community being unpleasable is not a product of DBS but a product of the fan themselves. DBS didn't split up people, it just reignited ancient debate on what DB should be, what role different character should have(and each of those character has a loyal and packep up fanbase to them), how the story should flow, power level,... .

Those different part of the fanbase existed way before DBS (the "critics" were already there on the first episode picking it apart without even knowing were the serie would go), they strongly sticked to their preference and Dragon ball iconic status in the anime and manga industry is mostly the reason for those strong desire of appropriation. RESULT ? we are strongly influenced in our critical thinking, doomed to hate it when it doesn't appeal to our very specific preference, the industry doesn't know where to put their head into without risking a backlash and so they stick to blatant Fan Service in an attempt to go with mainstream viewer (thus the strong kids targeting feeling of the ToP arc) because they honestly don't care as long as it is entertaining (and it proved to be successful for now).

Don't get me wrong, having preference is not bad, but when it is as pronounced as within the DB community to the point where every decision is meet with complaining, we have attained the status of "unpleasable fanbase" . Trust me, as long as this status remain, every "world building" (like the new film or Minus) or "world expanding" (like DBS) product coming out of DB that tries to appeal to this already broken community will ultimately be downvoted to oblivion and the producer cannot do a saving thrown because the goal doesn't exist anymore. DB will unfortunately stay as the iconic merchandise selling franchise with failed attempt at getting a revitalization of the market and respect for the franchise, It will die of fatigue and not the respectful death it deserves as an important part in opening up the field for the Shonen exploitation (because without exploitation potential, there is no support).

This is true. There are debate rather Dragon Ball should be more like the original Dragon Ball or like Z. I mean, Battle of Gods is beloved here and called the best Dragon Ball movie while Resurrection 'F' is considered a letdown. However, Resurrection 'F' for the most part got almost the same ratings as Battle of Gods and a group of fans loved it over Battle of Gods which they considered a boring movie with too much talking, humorless gags, and lackluster fights. Resurrection 'F' was specifically made to appease fans who didn't like Battle of Gods.

About a year ago, Dragon Ball Kai aired on Adult Swim. On the old Neogaf board, the fan-favorite Android/Cell Saga was regularly ripped apart by newer fans. The stuff that older fans loved or were willing to give a past to, they weren't.

There is also the different in regions. Like most western fans would loved more side-characters to get shine, while most Japanese fans don't care and would be happy with the Goku show 24/7.

This is not to say that there isn't anything object we can criticized about Super because there certainly is. But a lot of the debate here can be narrowed down to preference and what one believes Dragon Ball should be about in this new age.

[Totamo]

Toei has shown over again that they want Toriyama, even if it's a basic outline and I would say it has been a good arrangement. Toei has shown that they're not that original when it comes to idea. Almost all of their original movies ripoff the manga story points to some being outright copied like Lord Slug basically being King Piccolo. GT is also a perfect showcase of Toei trying to recreate Dragon Ball and when that didn't want, they tried to recreate Z to the point that GT didn't really get an original story arc until its last one. Heck, even their original idea for Battle of Gods ripped plot points from Garlic Jr Saga and Baby Saga. What Toei is very good at is filling in details to stuff that has been left vague or uncooked by Toriyama like History Trunks.

Toei is not a person, it is a company. These people can change their minds at any point in time, they can hire or contract new people to do stuff better that was not done well previously. For every person doing something, you can find somebody who does it better, even if they can only do it better because they are younger and more motivated. This is especially true for all DB-writing-related things because lets face it, it left a lot to be desired. There are many people in this community who have a much more reliable knowledge about past Dragon Ball events than what is displayed in the current production and could name 5 major inconsistencies and how they could have been avoided in the writing offhand.

Why would they do any of that when its cheaper to hire in house staff?

[HeroR]

Toei has shown over again that they want Toriyama, even if it's a basic outline and I would say it has been a good arrangement. Toei has shown that they're not that original when it comes to idea. Almost all of their original movies ripoff the manga story points to some being outright copied like Lord Slug basically being King Piccolo. GT is also a perfect showcase of Toei trying to recreate Dragon Ball and when that didn't want, they tried to recreate Z to the point that GT didn't really get an original story arc until its last one. Heck, even their original idea for Battle of Gods ripped plot points from Garlic Jr Saga and Baby Saga. What Toei is very good at is filling in details to stuff that has been left vague or uncooked by Toriyama like History Trunks.

Toei is not a person, it is a company. These people can change their minds at any point in time, they can hire or contract new people to do stuff better that was not done well previously. For every person doing something, you can find somebody who does it better, even if they can only do it better because they are younger and more motivated. This is especially true for all DB-writing-related things because lets face it, it left a lot to be desired. There are many people in this community who have a much more reliable knowledge about past Dragon Ball events than what is displayed in the current production and could name 5 major inconsistencies and how they could have been avoided in the writing offhand.

Why would they do any of that when its cheaper to hire in house staff?

A lot of the writers are not house staff in Super. Like one of the best writers in Super regularly works on Pokemon and has been since Best Wishes. Super also has a lot of freelance animators.

[darzap]

Yes, I know that. I was talking in general. No writer that has worked within Toei or even outside of Toie has done anything really original with Dragon Ball. Even the Battle of Gods movie, which had a different compared to the first 13 movies and GT, basically had the same plot of the Garlic Jr Saga and Baby Saga. The writer of Xenoverse is basically using Only as a template and playing it safe with 'revising Z history with some minor difference'. Even Heroes with all his crap thrown against the wall, recycle ideas all over Dragon Ball with the only thing closed to original being the Demon Realm, which was also taken from Online. In fact, Online is the most original thing to come to Dragon Ball before Battle of Gods and Toriyama supposedly had some involvement with it.

I think Video Game plots have different constraints and goals than completely serialized plots of anime shows. I'd think that even the writers of those games would not propose that same ideas as something that should be made into a series.

Given that record, why would I just assumed some new writer would come in with this flower of brand new ideas?

I don't assume that somebody will, I'm just assuming that there are people who could (because there certainly are) and I hope Toei finds them if they want to continue DB after Toriyama (I hope they do).

So? Just because you can named and point to 'inconsistencies' doesn't mean you can write story. And even then, Super had information that most hardcore fans didn't realized right away like the two robbers from the Saiyanman episode being from the manga of Dragon Ball, but they never showed up in the anime. Also, Toyo who is supposed to be a super fan made an error in the Resurrection 'F' manga that many other supposedly hardcore fans never picked up on. Namely, he had Krillin acknowledged Pilaf and wonder if he was misusing the Dragon Balls again. Thing is, Krillin never met Pilaf, never even once. The cast didn't even know he was involved with King Piccolo, so why would Krillin think of Pilaf?

This is not meant to say that anybody who can point out plot holes could be a potential writer, but this is to say that a replacement of Toriyama is more conceivable than say, replacing
- J.R.R. Tolkien (RIP), who not only wrote the LotR-books but the complete mythology, created more than two languages and sat on mountains of notes regarding the ancestry and backstories of characters, places, plant names consistent with elvish linguistics, etc. and wrote thousands of pages with callbacks and foreshadowing across books that were released decades apart, or replacing
- J.K. Rowling, who is known to have planned out a part of the grand scheme of things early enough to set up things that happened in Book 7 ten years in advance and is also known to have elaborate notes of backstories and details that were not included but that she was able to provide on request by fans or the film crew.

LotR and HP have some inconsistencies as well but they are far fewer compared to the massive amounts of plot and details that are included in those books and the interconnectedness and complexity of events. Toriyama does not seem to have this kind of encyclopedic knowledge that would make him hard to replace and by all means, I'm not saying he should be this kind of nerd to write better stories or that I want DB to become more like HP or LotR, I'm just saying that the way DB is written, makes the creator easier to replace than other types of creators with other types works.

[HeroR]

Yes, I know that. I was talking in general. No writer that has worked within Toei or even outside of Toie has done anything really original with Dragon Ball. Even the Battle of Gods movie, which had a different compared to the first 13 movies and GT, basically had the same plot of the Garlic Jr Saga and Baby Saga. The writer of Xenoverse is basically using Only as a template and playing it safe with 'revising Z history with some minor difference'. Even Heroes with all his crap thrown against the wall, recycle ideas all over Dragon Ball with the only thing closed to original being the Demon Realm, which was also taken from Online. In fact, Online is the most original thing to come to Dragon Ball before Battle of Gods and Toriyama supposedly had some involvement with it.

I think Video Game plots have different constraints and goals than completely serialized plots of anime shows. I'd think that even the writers of those games would not propose that same ideas as something that should be made into a series.

Given that record, why would I just assumed some new writer would come in with this flower of brand new ideas?

I don't assume that somebody will, I'm just assuming that there are people who could (because there certainly are) and I hope Toei finds them if they want to continue DB after Toriyama (I hope they do).

So? Just because you can named and point to 'inconsistencies' doesn't mean you can write story. And even then, Super had information that most hardcore fans didn't realized right away like the two robbers from the Saiyanman episode being from the manga of Dragon Ball, but they never showed up in the anime. Also, Toyo who is supposed to be a super fan made an error in the Resurrection 'F' manga that many other supposedly hardcore fans never picked up on. Namely, he had Krillin acknowledged Pilaf and wonder if he was misusing the Dragon Balls again. Thing is, Krillin never met Pilaf, never even once. The cast didn't even know he was involved with King Piccolo, so why would Krillin think of Pilaf?

This is not meant to say that anybody who can point out plot holes could be a potential writer, but this is to say that a replacement of Toriyama is more conceivable than say, replacing
- J.R.R. Tolkien (RIP), who not only wrote the LotR-books but the complete mythology, created more than two languages and sat on mountains of notes regarding the ancestry and backstories of characters, places, plant names consistent with elvish linguistics, etc. and wrote thousands of pages with callbacks and foreshadowing across books that were released decades apart, or replacing
- J.K. Rowling, who is known to have planned out a part of the grand scheme of things early enough to set up things that happened in Book 7 ten years in advance and is also known to have elaborate notes of backstories and details that were not included but that she was able to provide on request by fans or the film crew.

LotR and HP have some inconsistencies as well but they are far fewer compared to the massive amounts of plot and details that are included in those books and the interconnectedness and complexity of events. Toriyama does not seem to have this kind of encyclopedic knowledge that would make him hard to replace and by all means, I'm not saying he should be this kind of nerd to write better stories or that I want DB to become more like HP or LotR, I'm just saying that the way DB is written, makes the creator easier to replace than other types of creators with other types works.

Yes. Video games main goal should be game play over story. Even then, Xenoverse was hailed as having an original story that wasn't just Raditz to Buu, yet it was still Raditz to Buu with some Battle of Gods. It just had it with a twist. Even FigtherZ recycles the androids idea. There really isn't anything original about it outside of how some things are put together.

But my point remains. Dragon Ball has many writers over it long years, yet none of them did anything really original with the story of Dragon Ball. Online was the closet thing to the point that Heroes and Xenoverse are still taking ideas from it, and Toriyama supposedly had a hand in it. So again, what history is there for me to grab that makes me believed that someone being handed Dragon Ball would do something 'creative'? And 'I hope Toei finds these people' isn't really saying much since Toei doesn't even hired everyone. Stuff that Toei has nothing to with isn't exactly creative in the Dragon Ball department.

The different here is that we're talking about a Japanese cartoon that doesn't have the same writing standards as western novels. A better example would be One Piece, and even that is an exception to most anime. Dragon Ball was never meant to be like LOTR or Harry Potter. As Toriyama would say, he's a gag artist who just wants to write fart jokes.