Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZenkaiBoosts]

I don't really know where people got the impression that Toppo is on the same level as the other Hakaishin, just because he uses destruction energy? Goku does that in the manga too and he's miles behind Beerus.

Rather, I don't think Toppo could top even the weakest Hakaishin considering how Vegeta manhandled him. Maybe the latter is on said level because of his "mah promise" powerup, but I have my doubts.

The manga and the anime are not the same universe here. So far in the anime, no non-god has used Haki.

Yep. And Toppo even got a power boost/transformation from accepting his role as a god of destruction. So Toppo was def no pushover.

Vegeta straight up overwhelmed his Hakai energy.

That was a big win for Vegeta.

So if Vegeta could beat someone like that, then Goku who's on another level, is absolutely equal to or above the gods, and Goku should far far surpass them all now with his mastered UI transformation

[ekrolo2]

In chapter 29 the gods mention that restrained Toppo and SSGod Goku are already fighting on their level. This supposed to imply that the gap between Goku & Vegeta and the GoDs isn't ridiculously massive for the manga as in the anime?

[Rally 07]

So you haven't been paying attention then?



That isn't my headcanon. That's a fact ^

Mastered UI Goku has surpassed the gods. Its out right stated

Once again, this isn't any solid proof that Gokou has surpassed the Gods altogether. The statement "the realm that the gods cannot reach" more than likely refers to the mastery of Ultra Instinct, something that the Gods, more specifically the Hakaishins haven't been able to fully achieve. This same statement is the same terminology that is used by the narrator in the special at the very end of the special when he states "Can Gokou attain this power that the Gods fear?". The fact that the Gods fear it, doesn't necessarily mean he surpassed all of the Gods and is reaching the Angels at all. If Gokou has surpassed the Gods, it would be more solidified in the actual episode dude. How about you wait until the episode airs before, assuming and coming to a laughable conclusion.

[ZenkaiBoosts]

So you haven't been paying attention then?



That isn't my headcanon. That's a fact ^

Mastered UI Goku has surpassed the gods. Its out right stated

Once again, this isn't any solid proof that Gokou has surpassed the Gods.

How about you wait until the episode airs before, assuming and coming to a laughable conclusion.

Lol its right there

"This is power that surpasses even a god of destruction"

You asked me to provide a screenshot and I did. If you are intent to deny any evidence, then whats the point? And yes, we can wait for the episode: ) Will you deny that, if/when it's stated again? Its going to be a great episode, I feel. What are you looking forward to?

ps And as others have stated the gods are old news now

[Lord Beerus]

In chapter 29 the gods mention that restrained Toppo and SSGod Goku are already fighting on their level. This supposed to imply that the gap between Goku & Vegeta and the GoDs isn't ridiculously massive for the manga as in the anime?

It's very ambiguous. In Chapter 26 Mastered/Controlled SSJB Vegeta, who is stated to be on par with Goku by Whis himself, fights Beerus and when Vegeta punches Beerus, Beerus no sells it and flattens Vegeta like a pancake with one attack. And just to add insult to injury, Beerus wasn't fighting seriously at all and outright state it would take "a million years" before he could become his rival. Indicating that the gap in power between Goku and Vegeta and the Hakaishin is still quite huge. But Beerus does mention that Vegeta could be candidate for a Hakaishin in another universe...

[ZenkaiBoosts]

Now this is an accurate description indeed. And it’s 100% True. If one has surpassed God of Destruction tier, than one is aproaching Angel Tier by definition. I can’t see how that could possibly be wrong indeed.

And that's me wording it conservatively lol.

If I'm being truly honest, I think MUI Goku will be somewhat closer to the lower tier of angles then people realize.

Summaries state that MUI Goku has far surpassed the gods. If hes far surpassed them that means hes covering more ground on the lower tier of angels.

I'm really wondering what reaction Beerus will have to MUI Goku? Is he going to be salty that Goku far surpassed him lol?

In the one minute extended preview of 129, Whis gives a smile of acknowledgement to Goku. Its an awesome moment and that really says it all IMO.

It would be awesome if Whis gives some kind of flashback or monolog of how far Son Goku has come - from the beginning when he 1st started training him, to now witnessing him accomplish mastered UI, and Whis being proud of Son Goku

Yes i would love that! I can’t wait to see all of the Gods’ reactions and especially the Grand Priest. Seeing Whis be proud of his first student to have ever mastered UI is quite awesome. I too believe Goku is very close to the Angels now. But we need to wait for evidence first.

Really loved this moment in the preview

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

In chapter 29 the gods mention that restrained Toppo and SSGod Goku are already fighting on their level. This supposed to imply that the gap between Goku & Vegeta and the GoDs isn't ridiculously massive for the manga as in the anime?

It's very ambiguous. In Chapter 26 Mastered/Controlled SSJB Vegeta, who is stated to be on par with Goku by Whis himself, fights Beerus and when Vegeta punches Beerus, Beerus no sells it and flattens Vegeta like a pancake with one attack. And just to add insult to injury, Beerus wasn't fighting seriously at all and outright state it would take "a million years" before he could become his rival. Indicating that the gap in power between Goku and Vegeta and the Hakaishin is still quite huge. But Beerus does mention that Vegeta could be candidate for a Hakaishin in another universe...

I think it's possible that that line was meant to allude to Toppo, an actual candidate for the title of Hakaishin in Universe 11 who's around the same level as Goku and Vegeta in SSB.

It could be that one must reach a certain amount of strength before receiving the training necessary to be considered a Hakaishin candidate.

[HeroR]

In chapter 29 the gods mention that restrained Toppo and SSGod Goku are already fighting on their level. This supposed to imply that the gap between Goku & Vegeta and the GoDs isn't ridiculously massive for the manga as in the anime?

It's very ambiguous. In Chapter 26 Mastered/Controlled SSJB Vegeta, who is stated to be on par with Goku by Whis himself, fights Beerus and when Vegeta punches Beerus, Beerus no sells it and flattens Vegeta like a pancake with one attack. And just to add insult to injury, Beerus wasn't fighting seriously at all and outright state it would take "a million years" before he could become his rival. Indicating that the gap in power between Goku and Vegeta and the Hakaishin is still quite huge. But Beerus does mention that Vegeta could be candidate for a Hakaishin in another universe...

Also to note, Goku outright said he didn't know how long he would last against a God of Destruction after watching them fight, so he didn't feel comfortable fighting any of them.

Also in the anime, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan shocked all the Gods of the Destruction and they called it a power that 'rivaled even the gods'. Yet we know the Gods of Destruction would smashed Goku in that moment, yes even Sibra that fans like to downplay into the ground.

[Rally 07]

"This is power that surpasses even a god of destruction"

Umm okay. But all the same, things could go different in the actual episode though. This is just potential statement that really doesn't hold much until there's showing that Gokou surpassed the Hakaishins. I just to be safe before coming to an conclusion before the episode airs. And what I'm looking forward to is mainly the animation and the fight so I can scale Gokou and Jiren. I don't like to assume Gokou has surpassed the Hakaishins until the episode has aired and we seen some feats or statements via. character interaction and dialogue proving Gokou has. I'm just saying don't quickly come to a conclusion before the episode airs because the episode could tell us something completely different.

But regardless I do think Gokou definitely rivals the Hakaishins more than ever now. But I don't think he's coming close to Angel level as you think because that's complete headcanon.

[MajinVegetaPD]

Respectfully disagree here.

By that logic, Freeza is GoD tier as well as he man handled Sidra's destruction energy. As Toppo showed when Freeza got roflstomed by his energy, all GoD's are not created equal in terms of power.

To say Goku and Jiren are angel level is a reach. There is nothing concrete yet as far as the power scaling goes right now.

Mastered UI Goku has already surpassed the gods. Its a fact, explicitly stated so by recent episode summaries.

When you pass the gods, who's next? The angles. Hence mastered UI Goku is now approaching the lower tier of angels now. It doesn't mean he is on their level...but he has passed one plateau and is covering ground on the next

Now this is an accurate description indeed. And it’s 100% True. If one has surpassed God of Destruction tier, than one is aproaching Angel Tier by definition. I can’t see how that could possibly be wrong indeed.

You both are way off the mark here.

Going by that logic, when Vegeta slapped around Imperfect Cell we can say he was approaching Perfect Cell power.

In hindsight, Vegeta got roflstomped as he wasn't in the same league. Until there is factual evidence in either the anime or manga (not a 3 line summary of hype), then we have to assume that is not the case.

And to answer your question a few posts above, there are no Tiers of Angels. The Toei illustration promoting the tournament of power only described a difference of power among the GoD's, not the Angels.

[MajinVegetaPD]

I agree. Gods of Destruction are obsolete and irrelevant now. Episode 126 made that quite clear, Beyond Blue Vegeta straight out defeated a God of Destruction in hand to hand combat, and even managed to overpower, nullify, and even DESTROY the DESTRUCTION Energy from Toppo. Vegeta’s own concentrated energy straight up overpowered the Hakai! And later again, with Vegeta’s Final Explosion attack, he overpowered Toppo’s FULL POWER Hakai Blast. It was quite clearly Toei’s way of telling the audience that Gods of Destruction are obsolete now and have been surpassed. And this was just BeyondBlue Vegeta! We aren’t even talking about Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku yet, who is CLEARLY wayyyyy above SSJ Blue 2 Vegeta! Ultra Instinct is an Angel thing! And that’s why it’s so far above anything else includings Gods of Destruction. The magazine cover that came out last week that Herms translated clearly said that “UI is a power SURPASSING the Gods of Destruction!” They even stated that it was a realm GoDs cannot reach. They didn’t say “easily reach” No. They flat out stated that Gods of Destruction CANNOT achieve full mastery over Ultra Instinct. So i hope that throws that stupid theory out of the window that fans had concering some of the top tier Gods to possess Ultra Instinct. They don’t. End of story. Period.

Ultra Instinct is an Angel thing afterall. And Goku is now Angel level. He may not be on the level of Whis or the others, but he is definitely up there. Low Tier Angel level is an understatement. It’s clear as day. He even has Silver/White hair. Now why do you think they gave him that? You tell me.

Respectfully disagree here.

By that logic, Freeza is GoD tier as well as he man handled Sidra's destruction energy. As Toppo showed when Freeza got roflstomed by his energy, all GoD's are not created equal in terms of power.

To say Goku and Jiren are angel level is a reach. There is nothing concrete yet as far as the power scaling goes right now.

What does that have to do with anything? They’re two completely different cases. In Freeza’s case it was a weak henchman with only a very Very small portion of Sidra’s Hakai energy. In this case, Vegeta straight up defeated a God of Destruction in combat. In every possible way! Vegeta was clearly the superior fighter.

Furthermore, i said LOW Angel Tier. Please read properly before making judgements. Thanks.

I did read properly. You are just cherry picking to back up your argument.

There are no stated Tiers of power for the Angels, where as there are for GoD's as described by an official Toei illustration before the ToP started.

I am a huge Vegeta fan, but thinking he can beat a GoD such as Beerus who has been in power for eons compared to a fresh GoD such as Toppo is laughable. I'm not that big of a mark.

Until stated in the anime or Manga, everything is head cannon right now. Hopefully some light will be shed soon, but until then it's all an assumption.

[ZenkaiBoosts]

I don't like to assume Gokou has surpassed the Hakaishins

It's not an assumption based on nothing. In fact whats there's to even "assume" anymore when Its stated right there "A power that surpasses even a god of destruction" Its a cold hard fact at this point.

But regardless I do think Gokou definitely rivals the Hakaishins more than ever now. But I don't think he's coming close to Angel level as you think because that's complete headcanon.

I never said Goku is coming close to the angels

I said he's approaching the lower tier of the angels. I also made that clear that that was my education opinion

Me stating that MUI Goku is surpassing the gods however is NOT headcanon. Its a fact that's been explicitly stated so via official episode summaries

I feel that I've tried to be as clear as possible on what I stated was my educated opinion vs what's the actual fact

You keep telling me the angle level thing is my "headcanon" when I've been clear its just my opinion lol. I never tried to present it as anything else other then my headcanon lol

Here's why I call it my educated opinion though. Think logically about it for a second. Its a fact that MUI Goku surpasses the gods. So if he surpasses the gods, who is the next tier above the gods? The angels. Therefore Its simply logical to say MUI Goku is now approaching the angels regardless of how big that gap still is

[ZenkaiBoosts]

Respectfully disagree here.

By that logic, Freeza is GoD tier as well as he man handled Sidra's destruction energy. As Toppo showed when Freeza got roflstomed by his energy, all GoD's are not created equal in terms of power.

To say Goku and Jiren are angel level is a reach. There is nothing concrete yet as far as the power scaling goes right now.

What does that have to do with anything? They’re two completely different cases. In Freeza’s case it was a weak henchman with only a very Very small portion of Sidra’s Hakai energy. In this case, Vegeta straight up defeated a God of Destruction in combat. In every possible way! Vegeta was clearly the superior fighter.

Furthermore, i said LOW Angel Tier. Please read properly before making judgements. Thanks.

I did read properly. You are just cherry picking to back up your argument.

There are no stated Tiers of power for the Angels, where as there are for GoD's as described by an official Toei illustration before the ToP started.

I am a huge Vegeta fan, but thinking he can beat a GoD such as Beerus who has been in power for eons compared to a fresh GoD such as Toppo is laughable. I'm not that big of a mark.

Until stated in the anime or Manga, everything is head cannon right now. Hopefully some light will be shed soon, but until then it's all an assumption.

You're a Vegeta a fan? No one would have ever guessed that going by your posts. Huge shocker lol; ) haha j/k. Just busting your chops lol. But really, MUI Goku surpassing the gods is not headcanon. Its fact now

[ZenkaiBoosts]

Also the fact is Toppo did transform into a god of destruction and Vegeta did beat him.

What ever you want to call Toppo, Toppo is not a push over.

I think it's been made clear enough many times by now that the gods are no longer some "unreachable bench mark"....And that was made clear a while ago

As others have said, the gods are old news

Goku is even stronger then Vegeta and Goku's mastered UI transformation puts Goku on another stratosphere. If MUI Goku is tooling Jiren then we will know MUI Goku is far far far ABOVE the gods

[Rally 07]

I never said Goku is coming close to the angels

I said he's approaching the lower tier of the angels. I also made that clear that that was my education opinion

There's one contradiction there. Lower tier or not, he'd be approaching the Angels' level. Plus we don't know the power gaps between them. In fact, we don't know much of them at all. It's headcanon to

You keep telling me the angle level thing is my "headcanon" when I've been clear its just my opinion lol. I never tried to present it as anything else other then my educated opinion. Do you understand now?

It is headcanon because you're assuming without sort or evidence or reasoning why. You need to prove why that would be so whether or not you make an educated guess. And talk about "it's just my opinion", but you keep making claims that aren't backed with evidence nor any reasoning behind them. Y'know, I honestly don't believe you know what an educated guess is as well, at least I'm convinced that. But an educated guess is a guess that is based on an amount of knowledge and is therefore likely to be correct. You call it an educated guess but you likely have no knowledge of the Angels' power thus you can't prove why Gokou would be around Angel level. We've only been told that an Angel's power is far beyond that of a Hakaishin. We've never really got much incite into their power from that. And plus Ultra Instinct or Self-Movement mastery which is natural to them. Along with that, you've yet to prove why Gokou would even be near that level of power dude.

Honestly your whole argument kinda falls under Hitchen's Razor mainly due to the lack of evidence to support your claims and argument.

[buutenks]

We should wait 2 more weeks till we get actual statements in the episodes before coming to conclusions on where MUI ranks.

As for Toppo, Belmod states Toppo is no different from another GoD. Take that as you want, this will never be clarified, so it will most likely be an ongoing debate just like SPC and ssj2 kid Gohan. People should be glad tho, since with that statement, no side gets the short end of the stick. The side where people think Toppo is weakest GoD can go with that and the side where people think Toppo is around the same BP as most GoDs can go with that also.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Lol. Dbx2 infinite story scenes have come out. You should know how funny it’s is how many times the statement about “surpassing the gods” have been said in the story. And even the future warrior was stated by whis to have “surpassed the gods”. Seems like hakaishin tier is not as relavent as it used to be.

[Helios518]

Lol. Dbx2 infinite story scenes have come out. You should know how funny it’s is how many times the statement about “surpassing the gods” have been said in the story. And even the future warrior was stated by whis to have “surpassed the gods”. Seems like hakaishin tier is not as relavent as it used to be.

Even though I'm on the side that believe UI Goku and Geran surpass the GoDs, I wouldn't take a non-canon story as evidence.

[GodVegetto91]

What do you guys think of these shots? Aren’t they supremely wonderful/top tier?!

[buutenks]

What do you guys think of these shots? Aren’t they supremely wonderful/top tier?!

Ep 129 n 130 need to have stellar animation n art. It is the big fight we have been waiting for 40+ episodes.

Plus i dont mind that it will only be to 2 eps.

Beerus vs Goku in the anime was i think 4 episodes or 5 but most of it wasnt that good, plus knowing Beerus was holding back a ton, i just cant take that fight seriously anymore.