"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[松本_乱菊]

am i dreaming or In interview Nakamura said, that Caulifla and Kale turns out successful?

[Black Hawk]

Nakamura: It was decided fairly far in advance that we would do that special, so I invested personnel and money into it, and planned it out with the staff. We set our sights on that episode.

Takami: I was happy to hear from many fans online and elsewhere how much they enjoyed it. And of course story-wise as well it was an incredible fight, with that initial power-up. Toriyama-sensei had given us the word “Ultra Instinct” and its backstory and design, so we made Goku and Jiren’s fight the main event for that episode, with “Ultra Instinct: Omen” appearing too.

Nakamura: As we decided on the scenario’s course of events and reported to Toriyama-sensei, he came back with Ultra Instinct as a power-up for Goku. Toriyama-sensei thought it up as a completely different power-up from Super Saiyan.

I'm having a bit of trouble interpreting this portion of the interview. Takami's statement, to me, sounds something like the following:

Toriyama's draft included only the final Ultra Instinct showdown between Gokū and Jiren, so, to flesh out the outline and foreshadow the final battle, the Toei staff came up with Ultra Instinct Omen Gokū vs. Jiren.

However, Nakamura's latter statement, to me, sounds like the following:

The Toei staff came up with Ultra Instinct Omen Gokū vs. Jiren to flesh out the outline; they presented the idea to Toriyama and he responded by creating Ultra Instinct and adding it to the final battle between Gokū and Jiren that we're witnessing now.

It almost sounds circular. "Toriyama-sensei gave us the backstory and design of Ultra Instinct, so we decided to make Ultra Instinct Omen Gokū vs. Jiren. We presented that to Toriyama-sensei and he responded by coming up with the backstory and design of Ultra Instinct."

I'm missing something here; would someone mind correcting me? It'd be appreciated.

[Cetra]

1. I would hardly say that entirely forgetting how afterlife is supposed to work, and how only the chosen keep their bodies after death is "insignificant".

2. It contradicts something explicitly stated by Toriyama. Cell regenerating from his top being blown off was not the same sort of thing, since the bit about his single core cell was added later than that. It was pretty inexcusable too, but I don't see how the shit done in GT was insignificant.

I do not want to interrupt your daily GT thrashing but your posting in context of what I said and you before makes no sense.

1. You did not even mention the bigger afterlife plotholes so do not act like I said something about that. I specifically answered to what you mentioned (halo & healing) and nothing else. It also goes with the overall inconsistency of the entire Z anime where they did with the afterlife what they wanted so it is not a GT problem.
2. Great that you are trying to defend Z just to thrash GT more but just because the plothole was created through an additonal line that was written after the IT Kamehameha it is not less of an extremely great plothole. Goku killed Cell. The end. But he did not. Plothole. And a big one at that because everything after that move technically cannot even happen. But it did. Why? Because fiction can exist with plotholes. Why are you not treating GT with the same kind of fairness when there is an error in Toriyama-san's own work with such a magnitude and you are aware that it is a fictional piece of work? Because you hate GT? Because it was not made by Toriyama-san? There is nothing that can actually justify this unfair treatment as I have had those arguments ad infinitum before. If you hate GT, then hate it, fine. But do not give it some unfair treatment because of that.

Either you give Z and GT the same kind of treatment or you should not do that kind of criticism because that would only be some behaviour based on double standards. People know I very much like GT, but I would never be the kind of guy who would threat DB, Z or Super as immaculate. Its a show. It is fiction. Plothole is Plothole. It is there. The show still "works" because it has no physical substance in the first place. Do not turn this into some ordinary negatively biased GT thrashing argument again. If you are so active in the Dragon Ball community you know it leads nowhere.

[HeroR]

am i dreaming or In interview Nakamura said, that Caulifla and Kale turns out successful?

They did for the most part. They just have a very vocal hatedom.

[Legion]

"While the Universe Survival arc may be Goku’s story, I think it might actually be Jiren’s story, too"

Even if i believe that Jiren will restore the universes with the super dragon balls....please, Toei

[Kanassa]

It's amazing to think if it weren't for Toei's suggestion for Kale, we would have never gotten a female SSJ, and the wait for that would have continued.

To me, whether we get a Female SSJ means jackshit. Though, this does make me wonder, if Kale wasn't created; would Cabba have been the only Saiyan on the team> WHo would have taken up the last two spots then?

[Kenneth La Torre]

So what I’m getting from the interview is that jiren is going to have an important role in the end of 131... ok, if they do think of continuing a story with jiren being somewhat focused on, they need to get of their lazy ass and actually think things through. Really flesh out jirens character

[JulieYBM]

am i dreaming or In interview Nakamura said, that Caulifla and Kale turns out successful?

Nakamura and the others put a lot of effort into their arc, so it makes sense they would be happy with what they pulled off.


I like how Nakamura explained their thought process behind using one-on-one fights.

[BlueBasilisk]

I really do with we could have seen Justicefriend Jiren in action. Just imagine him taking someone out with Power Impact, spinning around a dropping a mean JUSTICE dab as the explosion goes off.

[HeroR]

1. I would hardly say that entirely forgetting how afterlife is supposed to work, and how only the chosen keep their bodies after death is "insignificant".

2. It contradicts something explicitly stated by Toriyama. Cell regenerating from his top being blown off was not the same sort of thing, since the bit about his single core cell was added later than that. It was pretty inexcusable too, but I don't see how the shit done in GT was insignificant.

I do not want to interrupt your daily GT thrashing but your posting in context of what I said and you before makes no sense.

1. You did not even mention the afterlife plothole so do not act like I said something about that. I specifically answered to what you mentioned and nothing else. It also goes with the overall inconsistency of the entire Z anime where they did with the afterlife what they wanted so it is not a GT problem.
2. Great that you are trying to defend Z just to thrash GT more but just because the plothole was created through an additonal line that was written after the IT Kamehameha it is not less of an extremely great plothole. Goku killed Cell. The end. But he did not. Plothole. And a big one at that because everything after that move technically cannot even happen. But it did. Why? Because fiction can exist with plotholes. Why are you not treating GT with the same kind of fairness when there is an error in Toriyama-san's own work with such a magnitude and you are aware that it is a fictional piece of work? Because you hate GT? Because it was not made by Toriyama-san? There is nothing that can actually justify this unfair treatment as I have had those arguments ad infinitum before. If you hate GT, then hate it, fine. But do not give it some unfair treatment because of that.

Either you give Z and GT the same kind of treatment or you should not do that kind of criticism because that would only be some behaviour based on double standards. People know I very much like GT, but I would never be the kind of guy who would threat DB, Z or Super as immaculate. Its a show. It is fiction. Plothole is Plothole. It is there. The show still "works" because it has no physical substance in the first place. Do not turn this into some ordinary negatively biased GT thrashing argument again. If you are so active in the Dragon Ball community you know it leads nowhere.

To step in for a moment, the Black Star Dragon Balls existing is a far bigger plot hole than the afterlife plothole. But the Cell Saga one is pretty bad. Most US fans never picked up on since Cell can regenerate ‘from a single cell’ according to the original dub so him coming back from having his head blown off made some sense.

[Grimlock]

this does make me wonder, if Kale wasn't created; would Cabba have been the only Saiyan on the team> WHo would have taken up the last two spots then?

A Tsufurujin and a Yadorat. Which should have been the case, if only someone in the production side knew how to deal with things in general.

[HeroR]

It's amazing to think if it weren't for Toei's suggestion for Kale, we would have never gotten a female SSJ, and the wait for that would have continued.

To me, whether we get a Female SSJ means jackshit. Though, this does make me wonder, if Kale wasn't created; would Cabba have been the only Saiyan on the team> WHo would have taken up the last two spots then?

Earthlings?

[Cetra]

To step in for a moment, the Black Star Dragon Balls existing is a far bigger plot hole than the afterlife plothole. But the Cell Saga one is pretty bad. Most US fans never picked up on since Cell can regenerate ‘from a single cell’ according to the original dub so him coming back from having his head blown off made some sense.

Why should I care about a US dub? It has nothing to do with the show? Also the Ultimate Dragon Balls are no real plothole because they can make sense without contradicting the entire "Dragon Ball creator bond" thing. Of course it is an unexplained thing but if we start with unexplained things then we need to start a list for the entire show. GT is hardly written in a solid unequivocal way, that's really just it. I also have a lot of "hm ... well" moments for GT but I would never give it a different consistency treatment as the rest of the franchise.

[HeroR]

To step in for a moment, the Black Star Dragon Balls existing is a far bigger plot hole than the afterlife plothole. But the Cell Saga one is pretty bad. Most US fans never picked up on since Cell can regenerate ‘from a single cell’ according to the original dub so him coming back from having his head blown off made some sense.

Why should I care about a US dub? It has nothing to do with the show? Also the Ultimate Dragon Balls are no real plothole because they can make sense without contradicting the entire "Dragon Ball creator bond" thing. Of course it is an unexplained thing but if we start with unexplained things then we need to start a list for the entire show. GT is hardly written in a solid unequivocal way, that's really just it.

I only mentioned it since many in the US didn’t and still don’t realized that Cell’s head getting blown off is a plothole. Nothing more.

There several issues with the Black Star Dragon Balls. I will be short since this is off-topic:

- How did Pilaf know about them if they were never used?
- Why did they never show up on the Dragon Rader? Especially since GT never claimed they had a different signal from the normal Dragon Balls.
- How did Pilaf even know about the Nameless Namekian and how Piccolo and Kami were born? That isn’t common knowledge since not even Roshi knew this stuff before meeting Kami. And how would he know they fused again?
- Why didn’t Popo or someone destroy those flaw Dragon Balls instead of keeping them around?

[Cetra]

There several issues with the Black Star Dragon Balls. I will be short since this is off-topic:

- How did Pilaf know about them if they were never used?
- Why did they never show up on the Dragon Rader? Especially since GT never claimed they had a different signal from the normal Dragon Balls.
- How did Pilaf even know about the Nameless Namekian and how Piccolo and Kami were born? That isn’t common knowledge since not even Roshi knew this stuff before meeting Kami. And how would he know they fused again?
- Why didn’t Popo or someone destroy those flaw Dragon Balls instead of keeping them around?

Those are not really plotholes in a contradictory way, they are just not explained. I also always wondered how people so lightheartedly accept that Pilaf finds out about Piccolo Daimaou and that he is in a deep sea ravine but of course draw the line when it comes to his intelligence in GT. Before VegettoEX kills us though I want to point out that the Ultimate Dragon Balls are only in one way worse because the normal Dragon Balls in another way can be even worse as we have seen from the Shadow Dragons so I think if anything all of them should be deactivated.

[HeroR]

There several issues with the Black Star Dragon Balls. I will be short since this is off-topic:

- How did Pilaf know about them if they were never used?
- Why did they never show up on the Dragon Rader? Especially since GT never claimed they had a different signal from the normal Dragon Balls.
- How did Pilaf even know about the Nameless Namekian and how Piccolo and Kami were born? That isn’t common knowledge since not even Roshi knew this stuff before meeting Kami. And how would he know they fused again?
- Why didn’t Popo or someone destroy those flaw Dragon Balls instead of keeping them around?

Those are not really plotholes in a contradictory way, they are just not explained. I also always wondered how people so lightheartedly accept that Pilaf finds out about Piccolo Daimaou and that he is in a deep sea ravine but of course draw the line when it comes to his intelligence in GT.

King Piccolo is actually a legend to the point that people heard about him in folklore and knew a great martial artist beat him. So Pilaf finding King Piccolo isn’t that out there.

There is no real reason or explaination as to how Pilaf learned what he did about the Black Star Dragon Balls since they were literally never used so only Kami, Piccolo, and Popo should know about them and only the Z-Fighters knew about Kami’s origins and his bond with Piccolo.

[Cetra]

King Piccolo is actually a legend to the point that people heard about him in folklore and knew a great martial artist beat him. So Pilaf finding King Piccolo isn’t that out there.

There is no real reason or explaination as to how Pilaf learned what he did about the Black Star Dragon Balls since they were literally never used so only Kami, Piccolo, and Popo should know about them and only the Z-Fighters knew about Kami’s origins and his bond with Piccolo.

See? And that is the problem I have with this fandom. Not ashamed of making anything up to defend Z (read this in a more frustrated way than a mad one, you know you and I have no problem going on). We do not know if your explanation of Piccolo is actually enough for Pilaf to have found him this way so no, it is not actually better than anything that happened in GT. Nor is it better than "Freeza is a mutant so 4 months training are enough for him to be strong". Pilaf finding Piccolo, a guy nobody ever wanted to see again, in a deepsea ravine where he was supposed to be sealed away in his rice cooker forever is something that is absolutely nonsensical but it happened nonetheless. If you allow your suspension of disbelief this much to be stretched then you should also do the same thing with the same character just in GT by knowing "well, he is a smart guy he can find things out, even if it just happens by spying on people". Which we know happened because Pilaf spied on Goku to find out about his tail weakness. All of this stuff is made up and nothing of that stuff is official so nothing is better than the other but all of it can at least be shown to not be outright contradictory.

[Kanassa]

It's amazing to think if it weren't for Toei's suggestion for Kale, we would have never gotten a female SSJ, and the wait for that would have continued.

To me, whether we get a Female SSJ means jackshit. Though, this does make me wonder, if Kale wasn't created; would Cabba have been the only Saiyan on the team> WHo would have taken up the last two spots then?

Earthlings?

Actually, Grimlock's theory sounds plausible. Like, the Yardratian and Tuffle were already designed by someone, so they decided to still use them for another team.

[Miracles]

You seen the whole interview?

It's here. In Japanese, though.

My good sir, do you think you could give any extra interesting tidbits? Or did Herms give it to us already?

[HeroR]

King Piccolo is actually a legend to the point that people heard about him in folklore and knew a great martial artist beat him. So Pilaf finding King Piccolo isn’t that out there.

There is no real reason or explaination as to how Pilaf learned what he did about the Black Star Dragon Balls since they were literally never used so only Kami, Piccolo, and Popo should know about them and only the Z-Fighters knew about Kami’s origins and his bond with Piccolo.

See? And that is the problem I have with this fandom. Not ashamed of making anything up to defend Z (read this in a more frustrated way than a mad one, you know you and I have no problem going on). We do not know if your explanation of Piccolo is actually enough for Pilaf to have found him this way so no, it is not actually better than anything that happened in GT. Nor is it better than "Freeza is a mutant so 4 months training are enough for him to be strong". Pilaf finding Piccolo, a guy nobody ever wanted to see again, in a deepsea ravine where he was supposed to be sealed away in his rice cooker forever is something that is absolutely nonsensical but it happened nonetheless. If you allow your suspension of disbelief this much to be stretched then you should also do the same thing with the same character just in GT by knowing "well, he is a smart guy he can find things out, even if it just happens by spying on people". Which we know happened because Pilaf spied on Goku to find out about his tail weakness. All of this stuff is made up and nothing of that stuff is official so nothing is better than the other but all of it can at least be shown to not be outright contradictory.

I understand, but Pilaf finding Piccolo is more believable to me based on what I wrote then him knowing a bunch of information that only about three people should know.

Him spying wouldn’t explain the Black Star Dragon Balls since who would be discussing them? Dende knew nothing about them. They had to asked King Kai who had to look it up. Which now that I wrote that, why didn’t Popo tell them about the Black Star Dragon Balls instead of King Kai.