Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Kenneth La Torre · Post by **Kenneth La Torre** » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:48 pm

So if I got things straight on how massive the gap between a MUI goku and jiren is,

SSB Goku (Zamasu Arc) < SSB Goku (ToP) <<<<<<<<<< SSB Kaioken x20 <<<<< 110 UI Goku ~ 109-110 Jiren < 116 UI Goku < 122 Jiren << 129 UI Omen Goku ~ 129 Jiren <<<<<<<<<< FP Beerus ~ MUI Goku ~ FP Jiren...?

I’m starting to think Supreme Kai was high when he said vegito blue was perhaps stronger than beerus. At most Id say vegito blue caps at UI omen Goku. Has anyone switched position on vegito blue being beerus tier? I would really like to hear from both sides

Kenneth La Torre · Post by **Kenneth La Torre** » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:49 pm

Meant to say “how massive the gap between SSB Goku and jiren is”

PerhapsTheOtherOne · Post by **PerhapsTheOtherOne** » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:57 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:Meant to say “how massive the gap between SSB Goku and jiren is”

It's definitely bigger than between SSB Goku and SSB Vegito, at least when Jiren's at full power.

The uncertainty at which SSB Vegito is compared to Beerus implies to me that it's relatively unclear, with Beerus honestly likely having a slight edge.

TheUltimateNinja · Post by **TheUltimateNinja** » Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:49 pm

Beerus would fodderize Vegetto with his breath like he did to Sidra's Hakai.

Also, Jiren unlocks a limit breaking new power? It's completely straining believability that the GoDs have any relevance whatsoever at this point.

brett wheeler · Post by **brett wheeler** » Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:20 am

Kenneth La Torre wrote:So if I got things straight on how massive the gap between a MUI goku and jiren is,

SSB Goku (Zamasu Arc) < SSB Goku (ToP) <<<<<<<<<< SSB Kaioken x20 <<<<< 110 UI Goku ~ 109-110 Jiren < 116 UI Goku < 122 Jiren << 129 UI Omen Goku ~ 129 Jiren <<<<<<<<<< FP Beerus ~ MUI Goku ~ FP Jiren...?

I’m starting to think Supreme Kai was high when he said vegito blue was perhaps stronger than beerus. At most Id say vegito blue caps at UI omen Goku. Has anyone switched position on vegito blue being beerus tier? I would really like to hear from both sides

It's stupid but beerus is as strong as plot demands, ssg was supposed to be a decent match for him based on BoG plot, then RoF plot says an ssj version of ssg wasn't his lvl but close, u6 arc has beerus sweat at the idea of fighting ssbkk×10 but was still above it, goku black arc puts vegito blue about on par with beerus witch i. Turn makes the other 3 arcs not make sense at least for beerus being able to have a good match against goku/vegeta, and then this arc makes jiren so op while suppressed that vegeta states he's never felt anything like it ( and since he's apart of vegito I'm assuming he felt his own energy ), so a suppressed jiren that was weaker than when he beat UI omen was so powerful vegeta couldn't compare him to anything yet beerus is still above that, and now goku masters UI and jiren goes 100% and they are only slightly above beerus based on spoilers, what like how is he this strong and why did he play with ssg goku like that. At this point I think a better question is how big an increase is MUI, if vegito blue isn't even comparable to a highly highly suppressed jiren while MUI is on the same lvl as jiren fp and slightly above beerus, that's one hell of a jump.

supersaiyangodgogeta · Post by **supersaiyangodgogeta** » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:24 am

Nowhere was it said that Ultra Instinct Goku was only barely stronger than Beerus. "Might" by definition doesn't quantify anything.
That's merely an extrapolation of why "might" was said. There are plenty of hypothetical reasons that one could come up with as to why "might" was used, but saying that it's because MUI Goku and Beerus are close is as baseless as any other explanation.

Full Power Jiren>Mastered Ultra Instinct Omen Goku>Ultra Instinct Omen Goku>Suppressed Jiren>SSB Evolution Vegeta's Final Explosion>=Full Power Energy of Destruction>Spirit Bomb>Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta=Super Saiyan Blue Kaiokenx20>Gods of Destruction>Super Saiyan Blue Goku>Super Saiyan God Goku

That's what's shown in the story.

Kaiosama · Post by **Kaiosama** » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:54 am

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:Nowhere was it said that Ultra Instinct Goku was only barely stronger than Beerus. "Might" by definition doesn't quantify anything.
That's merely an extrapolation of why "might" was said. There are plenty of hypothetical reasons that one could come up with as to why "might" was used, but saying that it's because MUI Goku and Beerus are close is as baseless as any other explanation.

Full Power Jiren>Mastered Ultra Instinct Omen Goku>Ultra Instinct Omen Goku>Suppressed Jiren>SSB Evolution Vegeta's Final Explosion>=Full Power Energy of Destruction>Spirit Bomb>Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta=Super Saiyan Blue Kaiokenx20>Gods of Destruction>Super Saiyan Blue Goku>Super Saiyan God Goku

That's what's shown in the story.

FP Jiren>MUI Goku>FP Beerus>Suppressed Jiren>UI Omen Goku=SSB Evolution Vegeta Final Explosion/Pride Boost 2.0>Hakaishin Toppo>SSJ2 Kefla>SSB Evolution Vegeta=SSBKKx20 Goku>U7 Spirit Bomb>Pride Boost SSB Final Flash>SSB Goku>SSB Vegeta>SSG Goku is what I see from the way the story has been presented.

Where the rest of the Hakaishin stand in this is hard to say. The one thing we do know is that FP Jiren and MUI Goku are beyond them, with SSB Evolution Vegeta maybe on par with the rest of the Hakaishin, or at least beyond candidate level.

Also SSB Vegito from the FT Arc is on par with Beerus at least in the manga. Don't know about the anime. People underestimate the Potara Multiplier. Look at the power of SSJ2 Kefla with Kale and Caulifla being far weaker than Vegeta or Goku. SSJ2 Kefla is able to put up a fight against UI Omen Goku. Imagine her having access to the SSB transformation!

The problem is the Potara can't sustain that much power for a long period of time, which is good because otherwise Goku and Vegeta could have just fused into Vegito to beat Jiren(which would have been horrible).

Kenneth La Torre · Post by **Kenneth La Torre** » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:56 am

brett wheeler wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:So if I got things straight on how massive the gap between a MUI goku and jiren is,

SSB Goku (Zamasu Arc) < SSB Goku (ToP) <<<<<<<<<< SSB Kaioken x20 <<<<< 110 UI Goku ~ 109-110 Jiren < 116 UI Goku < 122 Jiren << 129 UI Omen Goku ~ 129 Jiren <<<<<<<<<< FP Beerus ~ MUI Goku ~ FP Jiren...?

I’m starting to think Supreme Kai was high when he said vegito blue was perhaps stronger than beerus. At most Id say vegito blue caps at UI omen Goku. Has anyone switched position on vegito blue being beerus tier? I would really like to hear from both sides
It's stupid but beerus is as strong as plot demands, ssg was supposed to be a decent match for him based on BoG plot, then RoF plot says an ssj version of ssg wasn't his lvl but close, u6 arc has beerus sweat at the idea of fighting ssbkk×10 but was still above it, goku black arc puts vegito blue about on par with beerus witch i. Turn makes the other 3 arcs not make sense at least for beerus being able to have a good match against goku/vegeta, and then this arc makes jiren so op while suppressed that vegeta states he's never felt anything like it ( and since he's apart of vegito I'm assuming he felt his own energy ), so a suppressed jiren that was weaker than when he beat UI omen was so powerful vegeta couldn't compare him to anything yet beerus is still above that, and now goku masters UI and jiren goes 100% and they are only slightly above beerus based on spoilers, what like how is he this strong and why did he play with ssg goku like that. At this point I think a better question is how big an increase is MUI, if vegito blue isn't even comparable to a highly highly suppressed jiren while MUI is on the same lvl as jiren fp and slightly above beerus, that's one hell of a jump.

At least the plot already capped beerus out. Ow it’s jiren who I’m worried isn’t going to be capped out.

Kaiosama · Post by **Kaiosama** » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:04 am

Beerus is also able to get stronger. He might have motivation to train and master UI now that Goku and Vegeta have caught up to him.

Kenneth La Torre · Post by **Kenneth La Torre** » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:22 am

Kaiosama wrote:Beerus is also able to get stronger. He might have motivation to train and master UI now that Goku and Vegeta have caught up to him.

Whatever the story wants him to do, but he most likely won’t.

Kenneth La Torre · Post by **Kenneth La Torre** » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:23 am

He had at least 75,000,000 years to get UI, if he didn’t get it by now, he won’t get it sooner.

brett wheeler · Post by **brett wheeler** » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:29 am

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
brett wheeler wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:So if I got things straight on how massive the gap between a MUI goku and jiren is,

SSB Goku (Zamasu Arc) < SSB Goku (ToP) <<<<<<<<<< SSB Kaioken x20 <<<<< 110 UI Goku ~ 109-110 Jiren < 116 UI Goku < 122 Jiren << 129 UI Omen Goku ~ 129 Jiren <<<<<<<<<< FP Beerus ~ MUI Goku ~ FP Jiren...?

I’m starting to think Supreme Kai was high when he said vegito blue was perhaps stronger than beerus. At most Id say vegito blue caps at UI omen Goku. Has anyone switched position on vegito blue being beerus tier? I would really like to hear from both sides
It's stupid but beerus is as strong as plot demands, ssg was supposed to be a decent match for him based on BoG plot, then RoF plot says an ssj version of ssg wasn't his lvl but close, u6 arc has beerus sweat at the idea of fighting ssbkk×10 but was still above it, goku black arc puts vegito blue about on par with beerus witch i. Turn makes the other 3 arcs not make sense at least for beerus being able to have a good match against goku/vegeta, and then this arc makes jiren so op while suppressed that vegeta states he's never felt anything like it ( and since he's apart of vegito I'm assuming he felt his own energy ), so a suppressed jiren that was weaker than when he beat UI omen was so powerful vegeta couldn't compare him to anything yet beerus is still above that, and now goku masters UI and jiren goes 100% and they are only slightly above beerus based on spoilers, what like how is he this strong and why did he play with ssg goku like that. At this point I think a better question is how big an increase is MUI, if vegito blue isn't even comparable to a highly highly suppressed jiren while MUI is on the same lvl as jiren fp and slightly above beerus, that's one hell of a jump.
At least the plot already capped beerus out. Ow it’s jiren who I’m worried isn’t going to be capped out.

I'm worried too but hopefully his cap is equal to MUI goku and they wont give him no plot induced bs like beerus had.

supersaiyangodgogeta · Post by **supersaiyangodgogeta** » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:06 am

I don't know how one would come to the conclusion that Kaioken Goku is stronger than the Spirit Bomb or that Toppo is stronger than Kefla. And I don't recall it being stated that Vegito and Beerus were on par with each other.

And Beerus or Toppo being much different than any of the other Gods isn't implied either especially with how the fight went on in the manga. MUI Goku, Jiren and Beerus aren't stated to be rivals of any sort, so there isn't any reason to assume that Beerus is close to them and it doesn't make any sense that every other God is at a level that can be beaten by Vegeta, yet Beerus just so happens to be a rival to Jiren.

picc · Post by **picc** » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:24 am

So the humans are weaker than the ssj kids, let alone their fused ssj3 form. Well, no duh. This is Toei, they put in whatever will look coolest at the moment with no regard for anything else.

If you told them "copy vegeta destroyed ssj3 gotenks, and copy vegeta is equal to base vegeta, who is equal to base goku, who stalemated krillin, so krillin is stronger than ssj3 gotenks", they would look at you like you were insane. Thats about 4 steps further they are capable of thinking.

brett wheeler · Post by **brett wheeler** » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:27 am

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:I don't know how one would come to the conclusion that Kaioken Goku is stronger than the Spirit Bomb or that Toppo is stronger than Kefla. And I don't recall it being stated that Vegito and Beerus were on par with each other.

And Beerus or Toppo being much different than any of the other Gods isn't implied either especially with how the fight went on in the manga. MUI Goku, Jiren and Beerus aren't stated to be rivals of any sort, so there isn't any reason to assume that Beerus is close to them and it doesn't make any sense that every other God is at a level that can be beaten by Vegeta, yet Beerus just so happens to be a rival to Jiren.

I've never heard anybody say ssbkk was stronger than the spirit bomb cause hes not, toppo above kefla is something that comes from toppo being compared to GoDs while kefla wasnt,vegito was said to maby be above beerus by shin in the manga but even toyatoro basically said he probably wrong and power scaling has proven that vegito blue is a good chunk below beerus, beerus was slightly stronger in that fight as he lasted the the longest with quentella being there with him toppo on the other hand is weaker due to MUI goku and jiren 100% just now surpassing beerus while vegeta new form couldnt do jack diddly to jiren yet beat toppo with it so if 100% jiren just barely surpasses beerus while a suppressed jiren beats toppo than its safe to assume beerus >> toppo, never where they said to be rivals actualy beerus in spoilers says that MUi goku is stronger than him and jiren 100% is on par with MUI at bare minimum as he beats MUI goku, beerus says they might be stronger might indicates a good fight so only slightly above him, the rest of the gods are only slightly weaker than beerus but can black his eye and give him a really good fight and no vegeta couldnt beat the other gods and nobody thinks that anymore really and if they did they where not paying mutch attention to spoilers and the show ( vegeta and toppo are probably right below them tho ).

supersaiyangodgogeta · Post by **supersaiyangodgogeta** » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:54 am

Nobody needs to compare Kefla to a God of Destruction. By her own admission she can destroy a universe in one shot and a God's power has only been hyped to be capable of destroying a universe.

Toppo is stated to be no different than a God, so I see no reason why he's any different from any other God. All of the 12 Gods and Toppo are relatively the same.

As far as Goku and Vegito are concerned, "might" doesn't put anything in quantifiable terms. There are multiple reasons one could come up with as to why "might" is used. UI Omen Goku couldn't use UI's power offensively, so he doesn't have to hit stronger than what Beerus can output, so the statement only being made after UI is completed makes sense in that context. The word itself doesn't imply that Beerus is close to either Goku or Jiren and it doesn't imply that Jiren is only now stronger than Beerus.

Full Power Jiren>Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku>SSJ2 Kefla>Ultra Instinct Omen Goku(Episode 110)=Suppressed Jiren(Episode 110)>SSB Evolution Vegeta's Final Explosion>=Full Power Energy of Destruction>Universe 7 Spirit Bomb=SSJ Kefla>Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta=Super Saiyan Blue Kaiokenx20>Gods of Destruction>Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta>Super Saiyan God Goku

brett wheeler · Post by **brett wheeler** » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:45 am

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:Nobody needs to compare Kefla to a God of Destruction. By her own admission she can destroy a universe in one shot and a God's power has only been hyped to be capable of destroying a universe.

Toppo is stated to be no different than a God, so I see no reason why he's any different from any other God. All of the 12 Gods and Toppo are relatively the same.

As far as Goku and Vegito are concerned, "might" doesn't put anything in quantifiable terms. There are multiple reasons one could come up with as to why "might" is used. UI Omen Goku couldn't use UI's power offensively, so he doesn't have to hit stronger than what Beerus can output, so the statement only being made after UI is completed makes sense in that context. The word itself doesn't imply that Beerus is close to either Goku or Jiren and it doesn't imply that Jiren is only now stronger than Beerus.

Full Power Jiren>Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku>SSJ2 Kefla>Ultra Instinct Omen Goku(Episode 110)=Suppressed Jiren(Episode 110)>SSB Evolution Vegeta's Final Explosion>=Full Power Energy of Destruction>Universe 7 Spirit Bomb=SSJ Kefla>Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta=Super Saiyan Blue Kaiokenx20>Gods of Destruction>Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta>Super Saiyan God Goku

yea so can ssg, ssb, and ssbkk, and they are no where near GoDs strength.

toppo was said to be no different but SSBE vegeta curb stomped him and nobody felt the need to compare him to the GoDs

yes might doesnt say specifically anything but if beerus isnt being arrogant and is doesnt know if they are or not than the gap is probably small, also yes his offencive power was bad but still capable enough that U7 thought they had a chance when goku reawakened it in 128-129, and is this context might also makes sense as he is unsure if he could beat goku or not with there powers being close.

for me its
full power jiren>=MUI goku>GoDs=SSBE final explosion>jiren hint of true power>SSBE vegeta=toppo fp hakia>jiren suppressed>toppo GoD>=UI omen ( vs kefla)=jiren heavily suppressed >kefla ssj2 fp>UI omen ( 110 )>ssb vegito>ssj kefla fp>U7 spirit bomb>aniraza>ssbkk*20>ssbkk*10>ssbkk>ssb goku/vegeta=toppo=golden frieza>andriod 17>=ult gohan>ssg goku/vegeta

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:50 am

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
Kaiosama wrote:Beerus is also able to get stronger. He might have motivation to train and master UI now that Goku and Vegeta have caught up to him.
Whatever the story wants him to do, but he most likely won’t.

If we'll have another series (which i doubt) Beerus will still be a rilevant character, more than Jiren without any doubt.

Nobody needs to compare Kefla to a God of Destruction. By her own admission she can destroy a universe in one shot and a God's power has only been hyped to be capable of destroying a universe.

Toppo is stated to be no different than a God, so I see no reason why he's any different from any other God. All of the 12 Gods and Toppo are relatively the same.

As far as Goku and Vegito are concerned, "might" doesn't put anything in quantifiable terms. There are multiple reasons one could come up with as to why "might" is used. UI Omen Goku couldn't use UI's power offensively, so he doesn't have to hit stronger than what Beerus can output, so the statement only being made after UI is completed makes sense in that context. The word itself doesn't imply that Beerus is close to either Goku or Jiren and it doesn't imply that Jiren is only now stronger than Beerus.

Full Power Jiren>Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku>SSJ2 Kefla>Ultra Instinct Omen Goku(Episode 110)=Suppressed Jiren(Episode 110)>SSB Evolution Vegeta's Final Explosion>=Full Power Energy of Destruction>Universe 7 Spirit Bomb=SSJ Kefla>Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta=Super Saiyan Blue Kaiokenx20>Gods of Destruction>Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta>Super Saiyan God Goku

What you said is unsupported by current information. And current information>>your old information. The denial is really strong with you

buutenks · Post by **buutenks** » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:03 am

So, you all will keep going back and forth with this 'might' stuff till the episode airs?

PerhapsTheOtherOne · Post by **PerhapsTheOtherOne** » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:06 am

buutenks wrote:So, you all will keep going back and forth with this 'might' stuff till the episode airs?

Yep. It's the nature of the beast

Kanzenshuu

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