PFM18 wrote:JazzMazz wrote:ZombieVito wrote:
Nope.
He strangled a SS2 Gohan who fought on par with Goku, who's base is stronger than SS3 Gotenks.
He's Makankosappo can also kill Blue tier fighters.
Let's see:
Goku
Jiren
Vegeta
Toppo
Freeza
Future Trunks
Gohan
Hit
17
Pirina
Have you guys heard of what an outlier is?
Because thats exactly what things like copy Vegeta beating SS3 Gotenks, or base Goku and final form Freeza being godlike in comparison to everyone else are. They're outliers, because they aren't consistently shown to possess that level of strength, and it makes sense considering how everyone seems to be able to compete against the base saiyans after those arcs.
If Vegeta in base couldnt one shot Ssj3 Gotenks that would be a HUGE inconsistency. Like Beerus said Golu "made that power his own" when he lost SSG and so his normal super saiyan was roughly the same level and probably stronger than Super Saiyan God.
Tagoma was said to be as strong as Ultimate Gohan from the buu saga, 1st form freeza had to have been atleast as strong and then upon using his final form he became ATLEAST 100x stronger from what we saw on Namek. (530k to 60M in his 50% final form state) and then Goku still defeated this Freeza with utmost ease. And then in the Universe 6 arc Goku makes Hit bleed with a hit in his base form. It is most definitely not an outlier. If Piccolo is on par with the current base saiyans that makes him stronger than everybody in Z except MAYBE super saiyan Vegetto. (But probably not)
Yeah, he did make that power his own and his a completely different fighter because of it. His strong enough in his base form to match up to Super Saiyans in the Buu arc. Not to mention his SS2 form was able to fight evenly with a powered up Ultimate Gohan, someone who was even stronger than SS3 in the Buu.
I would say those are massive increases in power that more than justify what we saw in those arcs.
PS: That Tagoma statement, as confirmed by like the 50 translators on this sight, was referring to Gohan at his current peak as of that day. Not his all time peak power.
Also, scratching a character if your at a certain level of strength is never really that implausible if the character was caught off-guard, which Hit was at the time, he was completely disarmed by the fact Goku had predicted his location and received damage because of it.
Helios518 wrote:JazzMazz wrote:Helios518 wrote:
You're following one instance as oppose to three instances showing the contrary? Please tell me of the other instances your talking about.
1. Well, if Piccolo has grown so much stronger, than how was his strongest attack only just barely able to faze base Goku, when according to your logic, he should be in the same league as Super Saiyan 2 Goku, which was something that Ultimate Gohan was actually shown to be. That entire part of the story was just overly convoluted unless you take some of the events that happen in the context of the story as outliers.
2. how base Gohan and Piccolo are shown to be on a similar level of power, hell, I'd even say with Gohan being slightly ahead in terms of raw power if Piccolo's showing against the universe 6 Nameks was anything to go off.
3. Like how Kuririn was suddenly able to push back Goku in his base form.Are you suggesting that Kuririn got so powerful that he could knock back an opponent, which you consider to be on the same level as someone like Super-Buu, even though at his peak he couldn't even budge regular perfect Cell.
Its this sort of thing which is consistently shown throughout that irks me a lot.
If you were to ask me, the base form Saiyans are still firmly in the buu arc levels of power. I think how Goku and vegeta face off with opponents like Basil, who are vastly weaker than Majin Buu, who had already been weakened, kind of proves that point, far more than a one off occassion where SS3 Gotenks is fodderized.
1. Oh I don't believe he's on par with SSJ2 Goku like the other. But Piccolo not phasing base Goku is actually supportstowards "Base Goku > Gotenks".
2. Base Gohan = Ultimate Gohan. That's what Ultimate is. So of course, Gohan is on par with Piccolo at this point.
3. Kuririn pushing back Base Goku
at all, regardless if Goku is above Gotenks or still Boo Arc base, is odd. That's more of problem with Kuririn moreso than Base Saiyans.
1. Again, I don't get that, since Piccolo is still slightly weaker than a weakened Super Saiyan 2 Gohan(he won that fight, not by raw power, but because Gohan was a moron). I don't see how that supports your theory, at best, it suggests that Goku is still in his buu arc levels of Super Saiyan power in his base form, but it doesn't establish anything besides that.
2. No, I disagree. Base Gohan, is base Gohan. He only turns ultimate when he specifically unleashes his full power and noticably has a bang(though there are a few exceptions to this rule)..
3. I think this more showcasing the series looser approach to power-scaling, espicially in this arc, in comparison to the rather rigid conventions of the earlier story, much less earlier installments.
ZombieVito wrote:JazzMazz wrote:Well, if Piccolo has grown so much stronger, than how was his strongest attack only just barely able to faze base Goku, when according to your logic, he should be in the same league as Super Saiyan 2 Goku, which was something that Ultimate Gohan was actually shown to be. That entire part of the story was just overly convoluted unless you take some of the events that happen in the context of the story as outliers.
Or how base Gohan and Piccolo are shown to be on a similar level of power, hell, I'd even say with Gohan being slightly ahead in terms of raw power if Piccolo's showing against the universe 6 Nameks was anything to go off.
Like how Kuririn was suddenly able to push back Goku in his base form. Are you suggesting that Kuririn got so powerful that he could knock back an opponent, which you consider to be on the same level as someone like Super-Buu, even though at his peak he couldn't even budge regular perfect Cell.
Its this sort of thing which is consistently shown throughout that irks me a lot.
If you were to ask me, the base form Saiyans are still firmly in the buu arc levels of power. I think how Goku and vegeta face off with opponents like Basil, who are vastly weaker than Majin Buu, who had already been weakened, kind of proves that point, far more than a one off occassion where SS3 Gotenks is fodderized.
If a cut in half dying Babidi can survive Vegeta's suicide explosion, then I don't see an issue with a healthy Goku doing that against Piccolo. Gohan was not at full power while fighting SS2 Goku.
The pre 118 Namek fight can't be used for anything since they weren't fighting seriously. Goku was also obviously holding back against Kuririn.
Again outliers. That Babidi thing is one of them.
Also, we've seen that attack before, in fact, it was used against Goku, when both of them were relatively comparable in power, and it failed, just like his attack in episode 90 did. I think that speaks pretty clearly about where he stands in comparison to the base Saiyans. His roughly even, or slightly weaker.
Also, only really Gohan wasn't fighting seriously during the Pre-118 Universe 6 Namek fight, everyone else was using the most power they had at their disposal at the time, and even then, Piccolo was ever so slightly outmatched, with Gohan having to save his ass multiple times throughout their fight.
The only different thing that changed in 118, was that Piccolo released his full power in the form of the SBC. Even then, he was still doing worse against the newly empowered Nameks than Gohan was, or was doing barely as well.