"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

Yes, because Goku ultimately does the right thing when push comes to shove. But that doesn't mean he was content with that reality. Just as much as protecting his loved ones, accepting the power of God afterward was a strike to his pride that was necessary for getting to that next level of power. He will always protect those who need him, but what motivates his plot-driving actions are his unrelenting desire to improve as a martial artist.

Yes, and this is a step back. This is a fight for survival.

It's always been a fight for survival. If Goku were behaving like this in an otherwise hopeless situation, that would be one thing. It's a risky play, but that's what sets Goku apart from someone like Freeza or No. 17.

I mean, he was JUST about to get eliminated. It's a pretty hopeless situation.

[Nevaeh]

Manga Hit is such a loser. Guy he saves tells him to fuck off then gets baited into his own elimination

[batistabus]

Yes, and this is a step back. This is a fight for survival.

It's always been a fight for survival. If Goku were behaving like this in an otherwise hopeless situation, that would be one thing. It's a risky play, but that's what sets Goku apart from someone like Freeza or No. 17.

I mean, he was JUST about to get eliminated. It's a pretty hopeless situation.

I mean...you're speaking like a frustrated in-universe character. Yes, it seems that way, but Goku says that he thinks he can push it further right after that moment. If he and Hit did team up, there's no guarantee that they'd beat Jiren. In fact, we know that they wouldn't have beat Jiren because he had the ability to power through Time-Shift at a critical moment. If you don't believe that Golden Freeza and Vegeta are capable of taking out Jiren either, it seems that Universe 7's only hope of victory lies in Goku reaching the next level.

On second thought the fight between Goku and Toppo/Dyspo annoys me some what. So please correct me if I am wrong about this as I am relying on my crappy memory but, the god form doesn't use up much stamina right? If I am correct about this I don't understand why Goku didn't use it against those two as it was clear SS2 wasn't working.

Think critically here. Super Saiyan God is a higher transformation than SS2. It burns up more energy than SS2 would. This is an endurance fight, not a sprint. Even if SSG is more efficient than SSGSS, it still burns up way more energy than SS2.

Nobody in this tournament has fought at full power yet except Hit, Goku (both against Jiren) and Frost. Everyone else is trying to conserve energy.

There's also the possibility(?) that the ki used for Super Saiyan 1/2/3 and the ki used for SSG/B are different pools of energy. I mean, it has been established that God ki is different from normal ki, so saving God ki for important moments is a pretty good idea. Goku's still plenty strong without it. I hadn't been thinking about ki that way up until now, but I suppose that is consistent with the in-universe logic. Assuming that's what Toyotaro is running with, Goku could potentially burn out on Super Saiyan 3, but as long as he wasn't damaged physically, he could transition into a full-power SSB.

[Vegeta_Sama]

Manga Hit is such a loser. Guy he saves tells him to fuck off then gets baited into his own elimination

It's like Toyotaro read the discussions here on Kanzenshuu and said:
''You think Hit is a loser in my manga?! I'll show you what a real loser is!''

[Jackalope89]

Manga Hit is such a loser. Guy he saves tells him to fuck off then gets baited into his own elimination

It's like Toyotaro read the discussions here on Kanzenshuu and said:
''You think Hit is a loser in my manga?! I'll show you what a real loser is!''

Between him, Krillin, and Tien....

[Bergamo]

No one's going to mention that Hit is possibly stronger than Goku in this Chapter? Hit seems to be relative to Completed Blue, AND he has the Time Delay. Goku's strongest technique, his "Blue Power," was tanked by Jiren, and Hit forces Jiren to power up, but Hit's the weakling? Goku is weak.

[ToshioWrites]

Well goku has been slacking off on training since the Zamasu Arc ended while Hit has apparently been busting his ass

[TKA]

There's also the possibility(?) that the ki used for Super Saiyan 1/2/3 and the ki used for SSG/B are different pools of energy. I mean, it has been established that God ki is different from normal ki, so saving God ki for important moments is a pretty good idea. Goku's still plenty strong without it. I hadn't been thinking about ki that way up until now, but I suppose that is consistent with the in-universe logic. Assuming that's what Toyotaro is running with, Goku could potentially burn out on Super Saiyan 3, but as long as he wasn't damaged physically, he could transition into a full-power SSB.

Interesting perspective. Perhaps. Either way, it's about saving energy.

Manga Hit is such a loser. Guy he saves tells him to fuck off then gets baited into his own elimination

Hit is only a loser in that he lost the fight. Fact is he outperformed Goku and was the first person to force Jiren to use strategy instead of brute force. He only lost because he got blindsided when he thought he was about to win. That's perfectly fine.

Also worth noting that Hit was still holding back his killing techniques.

[CriticalThinker]

Personally I don't really care if Hit got an elimination here or not in this version it's just that his performance against Jiren was as disappointing to me as the anime version. I think the only reason why I slightly prefer him in the anime version is not because of him getting more eliminations but his fight against Dyspo. I rather liked the fight between these two and even if Hit didn't get any eliminations in that version I would have been satisfied alone due to that fight. While I think both versions could have handled Hit better if I were to pick which one I liked more I'd pick the anime. I know people will tell me I'm wrong about this but this is just what I think about the whole Hit situation. Sorry if this comes off as a rambling mess by the way.

[Doctor.]

Hit does look terrible without the bottom part of his coat. It was throwing me off.

[Kanassa]

I wouldn't say the art was bad, just off at times.
Ah, Toppo and Dyspo are truly embracing the Universe 7 school of fucking around.
"Me and Toppo are gonna take you on together!... Go kick his ass, Toppo!"
"There is no room for mercy... That's why I'm still showing it to you"
"I wanna fight Jiren!" Damn, Toppo, it's only been a day since you fought Goku and you're already his ex
When the skirt comes off... You know shit is serious.
Wait, so the Time Skip won't work on Jirn... But HIt's regular punches will? Unless I'm grossly misremembering how time skip works, if Time Skip won't hurt Jiren, your strength on its own won't. Not using Time Skip is just making you fight worse.
"I don't want to beat Jiren together, I want to beat him alone!" What did you think you were doing for the last few pages, buttercup? But yeah, I'm sure this will work wonders, just like with Zamasu, right?
"I'm only relying on my pure strength... THE TIME LAG DOESN'T COUNT!"
Was I supposed to take this elimination seriously? Becuase all I'm doing is just laughing at the drawing, especially's Jiren's Opponent's face.
"How did you realize that I wasn't going all out?" "I mean, Hit didn't immediately get swatted down like a fly or break down, so you HAD to be holding back"

Yeah, this chapter was underwhelming overall. Toyo does so little with characters that their eliminations, which are supposed to have some sort of impact, mean nothing. At best I'm going "Oh no, Jiren eliminated... Uh... That guy! I think he was something to do with punching. One Punch Dude?". Though, to be fair, while I don't like Toyo's interpretation of Hit's character, I have to commend it. I mean, he's one of the few manga characters Toyo allows to have more character. And now he's out... Shit.

What are you even complaining about? This just seems like rambling. I can't even refute any of your points, because I have no idea what you're saying.

Aside form the last part IT IS RAMBLING. That the point. It's beat by beat rambles I wrote while reading the chapter. Though I don't see how any of this is hard to understand.

"Me and Toppo are gonna take you on together!... Go kick his ass, Toppo!" Someone saying how they're going to work together, only to instantly have the other guy go solo.

I'll try my best anyways. Hit never said he wouldn't use special techniques anymore, he said that he trained his body so he didn't have to rely ONLY on gimmicks. Hit trained to be as strong as completed blue, so that's pretty good.

Good point.

Next, Goku and Hit were fighting Jiren at the same time, but they weren't really working together. Once Hit offered to use a coordinated assault and Goku thought about the situation, it was then when he decided he would let Hit fight Jiren alone. Goku and Hit vs Jiren is just another example of chaos on the battlefield.

While they were not fully co=ordinating, they were working together, unless you honestly expect me to believe that Goku would have counted a victory like that as taking on Jiren alone.

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

So from what I gathered at the begining of this latest chapter, 5 minutes happened in the last chapter. Ok it's already doing better pacing wise then the anime. ha ha

[sintzu]

Manga Hit is such a loser. Guy he saves tells him to fuck off then gets baited into his own elimination

It's like Toyotaro read the discussions here on Kanzenshuu and said:
''You think Hit is a loser in my manga?! I'll show you what a real loser is!''

To think some thought He'd replace Vegeta as Goku's rival.

I can't wait to see what Toyotaro has for Vegeta in the coming chapters.

[ankokudaishogun]

There's also the possibility(?) that the ki used for Super Saiyan 1/2/3 and the ki used for SSG/B are different pools of energy.

Unlikely.

Most likely, the act of turning on God Ki is much more tiring than just using Super Saiyan 1-2 for relatively short amounts of time

Like, using Super Saiyan costs 100 stamina\minute, but just the act of turning on God Ki for God or Blue burns 1000 stamina... PLUS the upkeep.

[Rebel Instinct]

Well, I was super excited about this chapter this morning and thought about gushing a little here before going to bed, but I thought "Nah, I'll post about it tomorrow. It can wait.". Reading through the thread today, I don't feel excited anymore - just sad. I realize I should have gone ahead and gotten it out of my system while I was still feeling happy about things so that my positive feelings would've at least gotten out there.

But some like "Hit getting eliminated with no wins is bullshit" is honestly pushing me away from this thread.

That's more or less how I feel. Toyotaro isn't perfect and he's hardly on Toriyama's level, but a lot of the criticisms I've seen levied at the manga this month are exceptionally ridiculous and unfounded. Much worse than usual, I'd venture to say.

I'll wait for the hysteria to die down before I give my full thoughts on the chapter.

You two said it best. I was actually fanboying a little this morning over how strong Hit had gotten and I was totally looking forward to talking about it, but coming here and reading multiple comments to the effect of, "Wow Hit is such fucking a loser! lol So lame!", I'm just not feeling it anymore. My actual thoughts on the chapter haven't changed, but my mood certainly has. This is actually a major part of the reason why I choose to interact with the community as infrequently as I do. What's my motivation if most of the world has the diametrically opposite view from me? I'm feeling good about one thing or another and decide I might want go talk about it a little online. Then I get there and see that the thing I was feeling happy about is almost universally hated by everyone in the community and everyone's busy making bullet point lists about how much it all sucks. All the enthusiasm immediately drains out of me. Then I just sigh and go do something else. It's like the good mood equivalent of stepping a rake. At this point I know full well that the rake is there, but I keep stepping on it anyway. At this point, I'm starting to feel like Sideshow Bob.

No one's going to mention that Hit is possibly stronger than Goku in this Chapter? Hit seems to be relative to Completed Blue, AND he has the Time Delay. Goku's strongest technique, his "Blue Power," was tanked by Jiren, and Hit forces Jiren to power up, but Hit's the weakling? Goku is weak.

I wanted to talk about how cool Hit looked without his kilt (yes, I'm calling it a kilt), how he had Improved so dramatically and how he's easily in the top five strongest singular participants in the entire Tournament of Power. I wanted to gush about how Hit could actually lay the smackdown on Completed Super Saiyan Blue Goku with his new strength and abilities if he wanted to. I was happy about Hit's character development and how friendly and competitive he was with Goku. Now? Eh. Who cares? Nobody likes the manga version of Hit anyway. He's a "loser" and a "weakling' that didn't get any eliminations, so what's there to be happy about? Few people would share my enthusiasm. Hit could go toe to toe with Merged Zamasu and even take down current Goku in his strongest form, but that doesn't mean a thing to anyone. Hit went out with the same record as the anime version of Toppo (who even became a literal God of Destruction), but Toppo was the coolest and Hit blows.

Sorry y'all, I know I'm being all melodramatic over this, but it really is a punch in the emotional nads to see this sort thing happen all the time. Maybe I'll make a long rambly post breaking down the logistics of Hit's new strength and my other personal highlights of the chapter later, but for now I'm just feeling bummed out. It's hard to stay excited about Dragon Ball for long these days.

[TKA]

Well, I was super excited about this chapter this morning and thought about gushing a little here before going to bed, but I thought "Nah, I'll post about it tomorrow. It can wait.". Reading through the thread today, I don't feel excited anymore - just sad. I realize I should have gone ahead and gotten it out of my system while I was still feeling happy about things so that my positive feelings would've at least gotten out there.

Never let a fandom ruin your enthusiasm for something. It's very difficult to do, but you'll be thankful you did. Honestly, I get that reading through this thread is a chore sometimes with now pointlessly negative people are with Toyotaro for some reason, but what works for me is not taking things too seriously.

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

Personally I liked this chapter. I feel like Hit had a great fight with Jiren. If anything I really liked the interactions between Hit and Goku, which I feel while they had some banter in 104, this felt more natural. Toyotaro knows how to make the action look good in the manga, and while it is a shame that Hit was eliminated early, I liked his fight overall. Sure he didn't take out anybody but at least we got a chapter focusing on him compared to how we didn't get anything from Krillin and Tien.

[batistabus]

Sorry y'all, I know I'm being all melodramatic over this, but it really is a punch in the emotional nads to see this sort thing happen all the time. Maybe I'll make a long rambly post breaking down the logistics of Hit's new strength and my other personal highlights of the chapter later, but for now I'm just feeling bummed out. It's hard to stay excited about Dragon Ball for long these days.

I find this difficult to deal with as well. I wish I could actually spend time talking about the thing that I like instead of constantly feeling the need to defend it. Month after month, there are people who come here simply to bash on the thing, no matter how many times they say they've "given up" on reading it. Why are you so obsessed with something you find so unengaging and disappointing? If you truly feel this way, move on to something you like and don't hijack the conversation that actual fans want to have. It's fine if you don't like the manga, and not everything said about the manga has to be positive, but if you just chime in a couple of times a month to say "another dull chapter by Toyotaro", what's the point? You think your opinion is so important that you need to constantly remind people that your opinion on the manga hasn't changed?

If you truly, fundamentally dislike the manga, wouldn't it be a better use of your time to focus on other things? Alternatively, you can take the approach that I took with the anime. Because it was so disappointing and unsatisfying to me on almost every level, I set my expectations as low as possible. That way, I was able to just glance over the stuff I didn't like as par-for-the-course and focus on the good stuff. By the end, I may have ended up enjoying the anime more than people who claim to care about it more than the manga. There was no need for me to constantly visit the weekly episode threads just to say "another episode without regard for consistency/another bad Sumitomo track/some more poor animation/the pacing is still horrible/the sound effects still suck/Toei's writers clearly don't fully understand Dragon Ball or these characters".

[FortuneSSJ]

- Chapter 35 -

After the thrash chapter from last month, this one was a little better. I still didn't enjoy it though.

I don't like how the other 4 GoD are surprised to what happened to Universe 9 and they are relieved for not being in the Tournament. They should keep their posture.
But then again ask for a character to keep his posture in the manga when things get serious is asking too much. Hit and Goku Black are the best example of this compared to their anime counterparts.

Why is Goku the only one fighting the Pride Troopers?! Seriously he already fought with all of them...
And why he's using SSJ2 against Dyspo/Toppo when Toppo alone already beat him in SSB...?! Mah power levels aren't making sense.

Goku/Hit vs Jiren is a good idea, but the execution is bad.
Hit stop relying only on his special techniques ruins what I like about his fighting style. See him fighting like a brawler was disappointing, because he just comes out as another normal guy. What make this more stupid is that after saying that, Toyotaro came up with the Time Lag technique which is actually an interesting concept. The writing was all over the place...

"Consider my debt from the last Tournament paid, Son Goku." What debt?! Does Toyotaro even know what he's doing anymore?! Goku is the one that should be in debt with him because Hit let Monaka win...

It was the same thing in chapter 33 - "I won't mess up and lose to you again." Well, he never did. Goku actually gave up and that's why the next fight was Monaka vs Hit...

Hit was wasted. He was eliminated before Universe 10 erasure and he didn't eliminate a single person.
It's obvious his character would never be as popular, if it wasn't for the anime.

The best Hit fight in ToP anime was Hit vs Dyspo. I loved how technical that fight was, so not seeing that here was disappointing.

I was angry with Toppo's ridiculous performance in the anime, but I pick Hit over him.

I think at this point people stop asking Toyotaro to treat x character better than the anime. That clearly didn't work out with Krillin, Tenshinhan and Hit. And if this keeps going, Gohan will be the next one.

Toyotaro's art and composition are also a joke. The biggest offender is Hit kicking Jiren. There's no impact behind that kick at all.

The only thing I liked was Goku's interactions with Jiren and Goku's will of wanting to beat Jiren alone.

So far the only ToP chapter I really liked was the first one.

[batistabus]

"Consider my debt from the last Tournament paid, Son Goku." What debt?! Does Toyotaro even know what he's doing anymore?! Goku is the one that should be in debt with him because Hit let Monaka win...

It was the same thing in chapter 33 - "I won't mess up and lose to you again." Well, he never did. Goku actually gave up and that's why the next fight was Monaka vs Hit...

The debt paid was reigniting Hit's passion for battle.

I don't understand how you can be a fan of Dragon Ball and think that a martial artist like Hit would consider the result of his battle vs Goku a win.