"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Exline]

Instead of making everyone weak and suppressing Goku & co to their levels for a stupid reason, how about you make everyone strong and make Goku & co have some sort of challenge? That's far more interesting. I agree, we have 80 characters, make the best use of them. As in, make each match-up meaningful and interesting; so match characters up with characters around their own strength level, or characters with personalities or gimmicks that will make our own characters shine in contrast.

Thats my issue with Super. As it seems like the charactesr just forget they can sense or scout out their opponents mentally, before engaging. They should have all picked their own opponents as said to their strength level and fought them. The movies seem to do this better by paring worthy henchmen to the Z cast, rather than creating 60 disposable characters. I honestly think in retrospect the character teams were too big. I would have set it to 5 characters per universe as representatives and scale them all alike U7. Though DB not having a real class system for the scaling to me is why you have just messy ambiguity or characters with the lamest designs being the giveaway weaklings. Have 1 UI level, 1 God, 1 SS3, 1 Android/SS1, 1 Superhuman per universe and they should have ranked characters clearer. Or just have threat classes like in OPM. The ambiguity to this tournament is why it comes off as a mess or that only Jiren really matters. I didn't like that the anime just had the fodder characters have a single gimmick, but in order to show it off they must have their strength equal to characters that show more competence to them in battle, just for it. Like the infamous Sniper episode.

But they can mask their ki! Don't forget! Dyspo didn't know he was fighting with someone as powerful as Goku at first and could've easily been ringed out.

And eh I'm fine with the 10 per universe. 8 would've been fine as well.

I don't think it's too hard to do a tournament like this right. You guys may be making it harder than it seems or maybe I'm underestimating the idea of it.

Just need to make sure you keep everything consistent, have the fights be engaging, and have side-plots to make it more interesting so we don't remember it as just a tournament. Other tournaments have done well with that imo. Tien's closure with the Crane Hermit is one of the best examples of side plots in the tournament arcs.

[prince212]

At least hit doesn’t have more debt with Goku (pag 25) . what was it ? Wasn’t more gokus debt because hit let Monaka win and u7 keep the earth?

?.
Can Somebody explain that debt ?

[ekrolo2]

Instead of making everyone weak and suppressing Goku & co to their levels for a stupid reason, how about you make everyone strong and make Goku & co have some sort of challenge? That's far more interesting. I agree, we have 80 characters, make the best use of them. As in, make each match-up meaningful and interesting; so match characters up with characters around their own strength level, or characters with personalities or gimmicks that will make our own characters shine in contrast.

Thats my issue with Super. As it seems like the charactesr just forget they can sense or scout out their opponents mentally, before engaging. They should have all picked their own opponents as said to their strength level and fought them. The movies seem to do this better by paring worthy henchmen to the Z cast, rather than creating 60 disposable characters. I honestly think in retrospect the character teams were too big. I would have set it to 5 characters per universe as representatives and scale them all alike U7. Though DB not having a real class system for the scaling to me is why you have just messy ambiguity or characters with the lamest designs being the giveaway weaklings. Have 1 UI level, 1 God, 1 SS3, 1 Android/SS1, 1 Superhuman per universe and they should have ranked characters clearer. Or just have threat classes like in OPM. The ambiguity to this tournament is why it comes off as a mess or that only Jiren really matters. I didn't like that the anime just had the fodder characters have a single gimmick, but in order to show it off they must have their strength equal to characters that show more competence to them in battle, just for it. Like the infamous Sniper episode.

Yeah, the team sizes being 10 is ultimately pointless since even from U7, half of the members don't do anything worthwhile. You could easily write a ToP where the U7 team is just the U6 one with maybe Gohan put instead of Majin Boo and you've got five people that allow for a wider range of combatants to go at them.

[Bergamo]

I think the only members of u7 that have to do something to justify the fighter count are Roshi, 17, and Frieza, because the entire point of making the participant number 10 was so that obscure characters would have to be used. If Toyo messes up any of these characters, than the arc will not realize its potential.

[Vegeta_Sama]

At least hit doesn’t have more debt with Goku (pag 25) . what was it ? Wasn’t more gokus debt because hit let Monaka win and u7 keep the earth?

?.
Can Somebody explain that debt ?

Basically, Hit owed a debt to Goku cause he ringed himself out in the U6 Tournament fight.

[Kanassa]

What about chapter 13 or those rushed chapter of Bog.

Those chapters were fine considering the time and context surrounding them, and I doubt the TOP chapters will ever get that bad because unlike the Zamasu stuff, this doesn't require that much storytelling due to the premise. Though, it still brings up Toyo's lack of ability to give much character or connection.

Ok, I've been refraining from using language like this, but this right here is a fat load of bullcrap.

You can't swear on the internet!

How do you claim Toyotaro lacks the ability to properly use these characters when this chapter is chock-full of character development between Goku, Hit, and Jiren..?

Jiren gains respect for Goku in this chapter, Goku and Hit build a friendly rivalry of sorts, and Goku remains in character by giving up the fight so he can win his own way instead of beating Jiren with someone beside him.

Jiren's respect for Goku is such a minor note because the manga has done nothing to make it meaningful. Plus, Jiren gaining respect for Goku simply because Goku realized Jiren wasn't going all out seems rather stupid to me.
And this rivalry is delivered in a bland and in-your-face manner with little actual character in it, but there were a few admittedly nice moments.
Goku wanting to fight his own way is in-character, but he seemed to be forgetting that he doesn't want to do that until the fight demanded that Goku leave Hit alone.

And again, I never said Toyo has a complete lack of capability in the character department when it comes to the likes of Goku, because Goku is a rather hard character to screw up and works fine for the most part. But dialogue and scenes lack a lot of emotional weight or connection to them because Toyo barely does anything with most of the characters as characters. I don't give a shit about HIt getting eliminated because in the manga Hit might as well be some guy.

How do you prefer this chapter should've went down to bring forth this missing character/connection you don't find thats already in this chapter?

Well, off the top of my head on the spot:
Hit's more of the teams defender, saving others from falling off the ring with his quick thinking. Only fighting Jiren because Jiren actually comes after Universe 6, taking some hit and run tactics because of how dangerous Jiren is. Add more desperation to the fight instead of just a 'Ha, I was only pretending to be affected!' because even people who haven't watched the anime know Jiren's holding back. Work up a tense sequence of survival, dodging in and out of cover as Jiren's glare threatens to knock them off. Maybe have some other non-important contestants get caught in the crossfire. A back and forth between Hit and Jiren, maybe about trusting your teammates and stuff if the whole 'trust' angel is a Toriyama thing, with Jiren's "I fight with my strength alone" stick shown through Toppo and others offering to help constantly while Jiren just tells them to back off. Hit uses the time lag as a last-ditch effort, holding Jiren in place while he takes out the area beneath them. Jiren gets out of this with a little help from Toppo, leaving Jiren rather peeved that he needed help in the first place, even if it was quite small.

[Doctor.]

This is a mild contrivance by storytelling standards, and a non-existent one by Dragonball standards.

Yes, which is why I repeatedly said it's not a big deal (for now, at least) and, at worst, it comes off just as a disappointing lack of creativity. You're the one acting like I'm saying it's the biggest problem in the series.

I don't think it's too hard to do a tournament like this right. You guys may be making it harder than it seems or maybe I'm underestimating the idea of it.

It's not very difficult, no. The anime just botched it completely and the manga, although it has been executing it better for now, already has some of the same structural problems as the anime, but on a lesser scale.

My Hero Academia, for instance, though not an exceptional series by any means, can juggle a big cast of characters reasonably well. There have been two battle royale-like tournaments in the series so far with a huge cast of characters (some already established characters and plenty of new ones) and it managed to utilize them all creatively, while writing an engaging plot around the setting. Every match-up counts, since it utilizes the participants' personalities and powers to their fullest extent. Every victory, every loss has some sort of implication on the character's development and on the plot. Super's Tournament of Power, by contrast, feels like WWE's Royal Rumble where you just throw a bunch of characters chaotically into a ring and the only thing that matters to the plot is whoever wins.

[TysonWine]

Instead of making everyone weak and suppressing Goku & co to their levels for a stupid reason, how about you make everyone strong and make Goku & co have some sort of challenge? That's far more interesting. I agree, we have 80 characters, make the best use of them. As in, make each match-up meaningful and interesting; so match characters up with characters around their own strength level, or characters with personalities or gimmicks that will make our own characters shine in contrast.

But that's not the way Toyotaro is doing things. What he's doing is getting rid of the weaker characters first and leaving only the strong, relevant characters since he thinks there's no way to properly utilize 80 characters in a battle royale format with a monthly manga. Which isn't a necessarily wrong way of doing things, but, again, he must be consistent with it; the moment he starts having stupid match-ups where characters that should have been eliminated arbitrarily survive, that's where things go south.

This is the solution. As I read through the past few pages, some people are on the side of "Having the strong characters use stamina conservation is a good reason to not one shot all the weaklings ." While the other side is, "The strong characters should one shot the weaklings because it makes sense from a power scaling perspective and it honestly shouldn't drain their stamina."

This argument would be non existent if the gap in strength wasn't so astronomical. I was always against a being stronger than the Gods participating in the TOP, because I knew it would create an issue. Jiren or someone of his power should have been saved for another arc. Also, universes other than 7 and 11 could've used a boost.

[Bergamo]

I think the next chapter should , and probably will be, Goku vs Jiren. I don't know think Goku will get omen, but he might unlock silver haired Ultra Instinct. The spirit bomb also seems like a toei creation.

[ekrolo2]

I think the next chapter should , and probably will be, Goku vs Jiren. I don't know think Goku will get omen, but he might unlock silver haired Ultra Instinct. The spirit bomb also seems like a toei creation.

Omen's definitely not gonna appear, that was totally a Toei thing. At most, Goku might activate Ultra Instinct for a few panels or a couple pages due to some extreme power struggle before fizzling out.

[jeffbr92]

Toyotaro seems more concerned in checking off the bullet points in Toriyama's script and making as many callbacks and tie-ins to old material as possible (the incessant references, Trunks training with the Kaioshin, etc) rather than inserting his own ideas into the story. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but Toyotaro is still excessively focused on the past. You don't have to take my word for it, Toriyama himself said it somewhere.

So to sum up: Toei writters are better storytellers than Toyotaro. I think everyone knows that and like Kanassa said: this arc doesn't require much too do than show characters fighting, but shows Toyotaro lack of abillity to bring connection between them.

Omen's definitely not gonna appear, that was totally a Toei thing.

When was that stated?

[prince212]

At least hit doesn’t have more debt with Goku (pag 25) . what was it ? Wasn’t more gokus debt because hit let Monaka win and u7 keep the earth?

?.
Can Somebody explain that debt ?

Basically, Hit owed a debt to Goku cause he ringed himself out in the U6 Tournament fight.

Well in chapter 13 , when hit let monaka ring him out , hit made this statement:
“ this makes us even now , Son Goku “
I don’t know why again now he said “ consider my debt from the last tournament paid”

[ekrolo2]

So to sum up: Toei writters are better storytellers than Toyotaro. I think everyone knows that and like Kanassa said: this arc doesn't require much too do than show characters fighting, but shows Toyotaro lack of abillity to bring connection between them.

There is no such thing as a good storyteller where Super is concerned.

Omen's definitely not gonna appear, that was totally a Toei thing.

When was that stated?

I judge that mostly due to the fact there's absolutely no Toriyama design for it anywhere, it's too big of a deal for one not to exist but there is none. It's why I think Omen, Evolution and God Toppo are just Toei things.

[Exline]

I don't think it's too hard to do a tournament like this right. You guys may be making it harder than it seems or maybe I'm underestimating the idea of it.

It's not very difficult, no. The anime just botched it completely and the manga, although it has been executing it better for now, already has some of the same structural problems as the anime, but on a lesser scale.

My Hero Academia, for instance, though not an exceptional series by any means, can juggle a big cast of characters reasonably well. There have been two battle royale-like tournaments in the series so far with a huge cast of characters (some already established characters and plenty of new ones) and it managed to utilize them all creatively, while writing an engaging plot around the setting. Every match-up counts, since it utilizes the participants' personalities and powers to their fullest extent. Every victory, every loss has some sort of implication on the character's development and on the plot. Super's Tournament of Power, by contrast, feels like WWE's Royal Rumble where you just throw a bunch of characters chaotically into a ring and the only thing that matters to the plot is whoever wins.

I was hoping you would reply on what I said about Vegeta using Blue to one-shot Cabba! I thought it was an interesting point as to why Goku can't go around smacking ppl in blue. But yeah we don't need episode long battles for every participant. No one's asking nor wants that. I was literally just watching a video on why My Hero does a better tournament arc than most series.

I honestly cannot decide which I am enjoying more right now btwn the manga and anime version. The anime version felt more like OG Dragon Ball with the goofy scenarios these characters were put it and the sudden twists. The manga feels more like DBZ because of the lack of typical DB gags we've been getting. However, the fights are more enjoyable in the manga and it makes up for that lack of humor.

How do you claim Toyotaro lacks the ability to properly use these characters when this chapter is chock-full of character development between Goku, Hit, and Jiren..?

Jiren gains respect for Goku in this chapter, Goku and Hit build a friendly rivalry of sorts, and Goku remains in character by giving up the fight so he can win his own way instead of beating Jiren with someone beside him.

Jiren's respect for Goku is such a minor note because the manga has done nothing to make it meaningful. Plus, Jiren gaining respect for Goku simply because Goku realized Jiren wasn't going all out seems rather stupid to me.
And this rivalry is delivered in a bland and in-your-face manner with little actual character in it, but there were a few admittedly nice moments.
Goku wanting to fight his own way is in-character, but he seemed to be forgetting that he doesn't want to do that until the fight demanded that Goku leave Hit alone.

Minor? It was his goal since the tournament started.

How do you prefer this chapter should've went down to bring forth this missing character/connection you don't find thats already in this chapter?

Well, off the top of my head on the spot:
Hit's more of the teams defender, saving others from falling off the ring with his quick thinking. Only fighting Jiren because Jiren actually comes after Universe 6, taking some hit and run tactics because of how dangerous Jiren is. Add more desperation to the fight instead of just a 'Ha, I was only pretending to be affected!' because even people who haven't watched the anime know Jiren's holding back. Work up a tense sequence of survival, dodging in and out of cover as Jiren's glare threatens to knock them off. Maybe have some other non-important contestants get caught in the crossfire. A back and forth between Hit and Jiren, maybe about trusting your teammates and stuff if the whole 'trust' angel is a Toriyama thing, with Jiren's "I fight with my strength alone" stick shown through Toppo and others offering to help constantly while Jiren just tells them to back off. Hit uses the time lag as a last-ditch effort, holding Jiren in place while he takes out the area beneath them. Jiren gets out of this with a little help from Toppo, leaving Jiren rather peeved that he needed help in the first place, even if it was quite small.

Back to the drawing board with ya!!!

If anything what you're explaining doesn't make Jiren sound as imposing as he should be. It's makes great use of his character and personality, but fails at portraying him as powerful as he should be.

[Doctor.]

Toyotaro seems more concerned in checking off the bullet points in Toriyama's script and making as many callbacks and tie-ins to old material as possible (the incessant references, Trunks training with the Kaioshin, etc) rather than inserting his own ideas into the story. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but Toyotaro is still excessively focused on the past. You don't have to take my word for it, Toriyama himself said it somewhere.

So to sum up: Toei writters are better storytellers than Toyotaro. I think everyone knows that and like Kanassa said: this arc doesn't require much too do than show characters fighting, but shows Toyotaro lack of abillity to bring connection between them.

I wouldn't say "Toei's writers" are generally better. There are some writers who are far more creative than Toyotaro (Toshio and King Ryu come to mind) and there are writers who are terrible. In general, Toei's version of the anime lacks the coherence of the manga, which is a big downside for it.

None of them can touch prime Toriyama regardless.

I was hoping you would reply on what I said about Vegeta using Blue to one-shot Cabba! I thought it was an interesting point as to why Goku can't go around smacking ppl in blue. But yeah we don't need episode long battles for every participant. No one's asking nor wants that.

I didn't say Goku had to go around one-shotting people in Blue. I said Goku and Vegeta have an excuse since their transformations are taxing. I said people like Toppo don't have such excuses not to one shot others. Jiren was knocking weaklings left and right last chapter without exerting himself and he defeated Hit and Goku this chapter without burning himself out. So obviously, even by the ToP's rules, when you one shot weaker fighters, you're not burning yourself out. Again, Toyotaro can't have his cake and eat it too.

[Bergamo]

Toyotaro seems more concerned in checking off the bullet points in Toriyama's script and making as many callbacks and tie-ins to old material as possible (the incessant references, Trunks training with the Kaioshin, etc) rather than inserting his own ideas into the story. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but Toyotaro is still excessively focused on the past. You don't have to take my word for it, Toriyama himself said it somewhere.

So to sum up: Toei writters are better storytellers than Toyotaro. I think everyone knows that and like Kanassa said: this arc doesn't require much too do than show characters fighting, but shows Toyotaro lack of abillity to bring connection between them.

I wouldn't say "Toei's writers" are generally better. There are some writers who are far more creative than Toyotaro (Toshio and King Ryu come to mind) and there are writers who are terrible. In general, Toei's version of the anime lacks the coherence of the manga, which is a big downside for it.

None of them can touch prime Toriyama regardless.

I was hoping you would reply on what I said about Vegeta using Blue to one-shot Cabba! I thought it was an interesting point as to why Goku can't go around smacking ppl in blue. But yeah we don't need episode long battles for every participant. No one's asking nor wants that.

I didn't say Goku had to go around one-shotting people in Blue. I said Goku and Vegeta have an excuse since their transformations are taxing. I said people like Toppo don't have such excuses not to one shot others. Jiren was knocking weaklings left and right last chapter without exerting himself and he defeated Hit and Goku this chapter without burning himself out. So obviously, even by the ToP's rules, when you one shot weaker fighters, you're not burning yourself out. Again, Toyotaro can't have his cake and eat it too.

Honestly, I think this is just something that bothers some people and not others. It shouldn't really ruin the arc even if it does bother you, and it certainly does not deserve to be the main topic on the manga thread discussion.

[Rakurai]

Good chapter in my book. Loved the way Goku came out of Toppo's binding and immediately bumrushed Jiren, only to get knocked back like a chump. Goku's frustration and anger at not being worth a damn to Jiren also made me realize how much I enjoy seeing this side of Goku, because it shows an competitive trait to Goku we haven't seen in a while.

The manga's approach to Hit also worked pretty well imo, how he overcame his previous weaknesses from the tournament and became this full-fledged martial artist as symbolized by taking off his skirt. My only complaint is got knocked out too early and could've done some other great things before jobbing to Jiren.

Best thing about it though, is that Hit & Goku's team-up felt congruent here. In Ep. 104, he shows up as a SSG out of nowhere (which was completely BS since we haven't seen in like over 90 episodes before!), with no context whatsoever. Forced. SSG to save stamina? Completely wasted idea later on during that episode.

So to sum up: Toei writters are better storytellers than Toyotaro. I think everyone knows that and like Kanassa said: this arc doesn't require much too do than show characters fighting, but shows Toyotaro lack of abillity to bring connection between them.

Hardly. Toyotaro's manga feels more like a proper sequel to the original manga, with proper characterization of old characters, whereas Toei's storytellers don't have much sense of consistency especially going from one episode to another.

[Bergamo]

I think Toyotaro's manga is way more consistent than the anime. If you think his manga is boring, then you will always get boring, but if you like it, then you will like most of the chapters. I think it's a proper continuation to Dragonball, and at some points it's better than some of the more questionable parts of the original.

[TKA]

stuff

The quote in your sig is not something I've ever said.

This is the solution.

It is a solution to an imaginary problem. The idea that the tournament is filled with weaklings comes from knowledge of the anime, and is predicated on nothing in the manga. This isn't an RPG; the characters don't have level markers and heathbars hovering over their heads. How strong anyone is depends on the plot, and right now the plot says everyone (not "most" or "some") is holding back.

I don't know why this discussion is still going on when the only good argument against the logic in people holding back is that in the original manga, stronger characters could oneshot weaker characters. That's the only legitimate argument... and it is weak as hell since the manga already showed that isn't a viable strategy as of last issue. That was one of the myriad purposes of the Frost-Frieza chapter.

Nobody has yet to make a good counter-argument to this, and one shouldn't even be entertained since it goes into fanfiction territory rather than as a valid narrative critique. "X should do Y" when we know Y isn't viable is a ridiculous argument and a waste of time.

[Bergamo]

stuff

The quote in your sig is not something I've ever said.

This is the solution.

It is a solution to an imaginary problem. The idea that the tournament is filled with weaklings comes from knowledge of the anime, and is predicated on nothing in the manga. This isn't an RPG; the characters don't have level markers and heathbars hovering over their heads. How strong anyone is depends on the plot, and right now the plot says everyone (not "most" or "some") is holding back.

I don't know why this discussion is still going on when the only good argument against the logic in people holding back is that in the original manga, stronger characters could oneshot weaker characters. That's the only legitimate argument... and it is weak as hell since the manga already showed that isn't a viable strategy as of last issue. That was one of the myriad purposes of the Frost-Frieza chapter.

Nobody has yet to make a good counter-argument to this, and one shouldn't even be entertained since it goes into fanfiction territory rather than as a valid narrative critique. "X should do Y" when we know Y isn't viable is a ridiculous argument and a waste of time.

More on this. Toriyama isn't God, and the original manga isn't the Bible. You will never enjoy Super if viewed through the lens of, "Well it's not as good as the original," because it is at some points. Just because something happened in the original manga doesn't make it right or law.