Rakurai wrote:I'm not that crazy about GT tbh, and always found it okay, but I have come to appreciate it more since Super had arrived. I don't like the double standards that Super fans try to pull in favor of Super itself either. The only thing I give to Super is the battle animation, which is actually hampered by the 'atatatatatataatas' that plagued almost each and every scene. 'Great ideas, horrible execution' - this applies to Super just as much as it did to GT.
I've never understood the "Great ideas, horrible execution" criticism of GT; the Evil Dragons and Baby arcs were rather well-executed on the whole and Super #17 just straight-up wasn't a good idea(Though I thought the execution was actually exceptionally good, because it ends up being a stupid but fun little 6-episode thing between the heavier arcs it stands in the middle of. So, it's not a
good arc, but given the plot they were working with, they did pretty damn well). I think the Black-Star arc is the only one you could say this about, really. And even then, it's mostly just a matter of the first 8 episodes being a bit dull, something the writers realised, and immediately course-corrected on. The original idea of the arc was very poorly-executed, but that's because they realised that the idea just doesn't work in practice, so they changed over to something else, and we got stuff like Planet M-2, and eventually, it lead into the Baby arc, which was pretty great overall.
But, even if we did go with this idea of good ideas and poor execution, as much as I agree with you that Super had poor execution on its ideas, I don't think Super even has good ideas behind it...
Arc 1 - Tournament. Only participants who matter are Goku and Vegeta. Piccolo is also there, but only fights for a minute or two before being knocked out.
Arc 2 - Let's bring back Trunks and he's fighting evil Goku, but it's not Goku, it's a god who stole his body. And we do more fusion so we get Goku fusing with that god, and Vegetto fights him. But Trunks kills him in the end by using a spirit bomb with his sword and getting the new Blue form somehow.
Arc 2.5 - Vegeta gets a clone who fights Goku for a bit.
Arc 3 - Let's do another tournament, but that's boring so let's have a guy for Goku to fight who's stronger than all the other guys and he has to get two new forms to fight him. Oh also, let's bring Freeza back again, I hear he's popular.
PsionicWarrior wrote:What out of context man, you said crap animation, I can also find some very crap animation in Z what's the point doing that,
I am now suspecting you didn't watch past the retellings lol
I watched everything up to episode 102.
Even what I saw of the Tournament Of Power, which people hail as "The part where the animation gets good", which was right after the Black arc, which was what people hailed as "The part where the animation gets good"... Both of those arcs, actually, still looked like crap, and while there were a lot of well-animated moments, there's at least a couple of goofy keyframes per episode, background characters often look awful, etc...
Yes, you can find some very crap animation in Z. If you mention that, though, then you're entirely missing the point I'm making. I'm not saying Super just has some crap animation, I'm saying Super -- on average -- is not well-animated, and very frequently dips into outright ugly territory. (Plus, the TOP introduced that ugly filter that makes even the nice animation look terrible, because the actual look of the show got worse)
PsionicWarrior wrote:There is more great animation scenes from Super but I took the most recent ones so you see what is up to date and what is to come.
I think it's pretty well accepted that a lot of work was put into making the last few fight scenes look exceptionally good. Because of course that's what was going to happen. Doesn't mean the animation in the show has got better, it means they prioritised the end over the rest so you walk away with the last thing you saw being nicer-looking so it doesn't feel quite so bad.
PsionicWarrior wrote:You know, I was part of the Super hate crowd when it just aired, but as the show went on it improved with time, and I was happy about that. Not only the animation, but also the artstyle.
I'm in the opposite camp. I thought it started out okay, I thought the U6 tournament was pretty decent, I thought the Black arc was... Well... It had its moments... And then the Tournament Of Power hit, with the pace being even slower than the utter slog the rest had been, and it was even worse than the last few arcs, so I gave up.
As for the artstyle, everything up until the ToP was the same artstyle, it's just that the number of episode 5-tier crap dropped a massive amount as time went on. Doesn't mean the animation got good, or that the artstyle got better; honestly, I thought the artstyle was quite nice until the ToP, at which point they put that ugly filter over it, and it turned from being quite nice to straight-up crap, and while the animation did improve over the show's run, it still remained massively inconsistent, every episode would still have its derpy keyframe, every couple of episodes would be really derpy... ("Better" does not mean "Good")
PsionicWarrior wrote:Basically what just happened is I show you some great scenes, and you reply "Muh but look how ugly it was 100 episodes ago!". Dude, weak.
Y'know, there's this thing people sometimes do. It's called joking. Specifically, in this case, mocking. I wasn't pointing out a crap-looking bit from 100 episodes ago to throw in your face, I was pointing out that what you're doing is the same as someone who would do that.
Just because something looked nice once, doesn't mean the show overall looks nice.
PsionicWarrior wrote:If you refuse to acknowledge great DB scenes when you see them, I can only think that's sad.
And here we get to the crux of my argument against Super...
Yes, it does have some great moments. But a few great moments don't make a series. I don't watch the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai because Goku vs Roshi is a good moment, I don't watch the Piccolo arc because the moment Goku kills Piccolo is a great moment, I don't watch the Freeza arc because Goku going Super Saiyan is a great moment...
I watch these things because they are well-told stories with strong, consistently-written characters, and while these iconic moments are symbolic, if the rest of the arc they took place in was total crap, I wouldn't even slightly care. As I illustrated in my last post, there are some great scenes(Or, at least one) in Batman V Superman where Ben Affleck slays in his different take as Batman. There's a real depth in his portrayal, and ultimately, I think he ends up being the MVP of the film...
Unfortunately, the film is crap, so it doesn't matter.
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.
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No but seriously, where have you guys been?! Call me crazy, but it feels like a lot of the older fans in favor of DBGT left Kanzenshuu and moved on with their lives.
