Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Because that will make the other 7 members of U9 weaker than Freeza on Namek. Remember that the Trio of Danger are the strongest of U9.

Well maybe they are, Frieza was also supposed to be the strongest in U7 at one point himself.

Krillin, Tien and Roshi wouldn't be as strong as Frieza on Namek and they beat several people so it's not like there weren't plenty of characters that were weaker than him.

And again Krillin did put up a pretty good fight against Basil and he beat Base Gohan. Would Krillin have done nearly as well against Frieza? It would seem unlikely if Base Goku wouldn't have been able to.

Weren't people bitching because Boo tier fighters were given Goku and Vegeta (Who are stronger than Gotenks) trouble before? Now below Namek Freeza level is alright?

Kuririn only beat Gohan because of the Taioken x100. He never overpowered him, far from it. Basil pretty much tanked everything Kuririn did on their what if fight.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Because that will make the other 7 members of U9 weaker than Freeza on Namek. Remember that the Trio of Danger are the strongest of U9.

There's nothing particularly wrong with that idea. If they're weaker than Basil in his base form as they were implied to be, who himself was dramatically weaker than Buu, I can't imagine them being that much stronger than early Cell arc levels at the absolute most.

If what you're saying is true then Goku wouldn't have used a power above his base strength. That's all that's needed to dismantle your stance. The dialogue points towards a spar that got serious and Goku used a power greater than his base strength. There's nothing to interpret. A Gohan that's weaker than his Boo arc strength was an opponent that Goku deemed strong enough for Super Saiyan.

That's another good point that I've brought up in the past -- Goku obviously isn't going to resort to Super Saiyan against an opponent that I presume people are trying to argue is weaker than his base strength, especially during a fight that was implied to have escalated to a somewhat serious level. That whole assumption is totally absurd just on the surface and not only goes against the dialogue in the scene, but common sense in general.

Goku did, however, transform against Krillin into a Super Saiyan to completely eradicate his best friend's attack during their recruitment spar.

He also wanted to turn into a Super Saiyan against Krillin several episodes prior for simple training.

Turning Super Saiyan and NEEDING to turn Super Saiyan are two very much different things, and I think it's a disservice to the form to presume that its only use is in showcasing pure power because a Saiyan somehow needs that power when his/her base form is insufficient.

Based on what I've seen, Goku turning SS is more of a personal combative choice he often turns to, rather than a specific necessity due to his power level at any given moment. Turning SS is a quick and easy way of showing that you've gotten stronger for a fight and taking things up a notch from before, and Goku wants to show his opponents that; they KNOW that things are getting more heated when he turns into a Super Saiyan.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

You are basing this on your own interpretation of a singular scene. Goku and Gohan were not relative to each other in the same form. Goku had a sparring match with his son who he knows wasn't training very seriously or very frequently, obviously he isn't going to go all out. It was just a friendly sparring match. Piccolo losing to the same Ultimate Gohan could possibly hold water but it doesn't give credence to the notion that Goku in base isn't dramatically stronger than Ultimate Gohan from the Buu arc. The fact that:

1. Gohan, who had probably not had a dramatic dropoff in power from ROF, was dominated by First Form Freeza, then Base form Goku goes and beats Freeza even after he goes into his Final Form and becomes atleast a hundred times stronger.
2. Goku competes with Beerus in his base form. (As opposed to being flicked by Beerus previously in his SSJ3 form.)
3. Copy Vegeta completely dominates SSJ3 Gotenks in his base form and Goku fights evenly with him.
4. Buu, after powering up significantly, is still only relative to Goku in his base form when Goku appears to not even be taking it seriously.
5. Goku, after SSG was impled to be being superior to SSJ3 Vegetto several times, infused this power in his SSJ form.

And the list goes on. Based on the evidence we have in the series, it is obviously clear that Goku was holding back against Gohan in their sparring match and it is clear that even in Base form he is currently leaps and bounds above everything in DBZ and the same goes for Vegeta.



We shouldn't be going by Figherz. It is just a video game.

Also, the notion that Gohan and Goku were relative to each other before the ToP arc needs to die. That was just a casual sparring match and everything else in the entire series points to Goku>>>>>>>>>>>>Gohan in an equivalent form. It is very reasonable to assume Goku was heavily suppressed during that altercation.

You didn't address my point. Ultimate Gohan>Piccolo and Piccolo easily beat Bergamo whom is comparable to base Goku.

If what you're saying is true then Goku wouldn't have used a power above his base strength. That's all that's needed to dismantle your stance. The dialogue points towards a spar that got serious and Goku used a power greater than his base strength. There's nothing to interpret. A Gohan that's weaker than his Boo arc strength was an opponent that Goku deemed strong enough for Super Saiyan.

Those 5 points you brought up are either conjecture or irrelevant to what you're trying to assert. The fact that your stance requires you to ignore events from the story and make a pile of assumptions to justify it makes it dubious at best. Can't take it seriously.

See your first problem is that you are mixing and matching the manga and anime talking about how Piccolo beat Bergamo and what not. This cannot be done they are completely different continuities.

Goku was established to be suppressed. This arc well established that you can be in a transformed state and still be weaker than a non-transformed state if you are suppressed enough. There is no reason to believe that Goku was going all out nor is there reason to believe that Goku needed SSJ.

I don't know if you are just being purposely stubborn or what but obviously the 5 points I mentioned are very relevant to what I was trying to assert. You are implying that Goku in base is weaker than Buu Arc Ultimate Gohan, that is just not the case based on the 5 things that I mentioned. The story makes it very clear the massive difference in power between current Goku and the Buu arc iteration of him. SSJ Goku by BoG was made abundantly clear to be far above any iteration of Vegetto from the Buu Arc. If you did not pay attentiont to the things that implied this then I do not know what to tell you. From Buu Arc -> ToP Arc the difference in power is similar to the difference between Piccolo Jr Arc -> Buu Arc Goku. The difference from the end of the previous series to the end of the current series is massive, that is just how this works.

There's nothing particularly wrong with that idea. If they're weaker than Basil in his base form as they were implied to be, who himself was dramatically weaker than Buu, I can't imagine them being that much stronger than early Cell arc levels at the absolute most.

There's something horribly wrong with that idea. And the fact that this must be the case in order for your interpretation to work pretty much invalidates your entire theory on these tremendously nerfed characters. Namek Arc Freeza is irrelevant at this point and anybody other than say Ganos being that weak is ridiculous.

No. The manga is the anime's stated supplementary material and they follow the same outline. No reason whatsoever to consider the idea that Piccolo is somehow weaker or stronger between the mediums. In the story, Piccolo is above Bergamo whom is relative to base Goku. This Piccolo is weaker than Boo arc Gohan. Period.

And your "rebuttal" is again, baseless. Goku powered up above his base strength, so Gohan is above his base strength.

So this "Goku was suppressed" nonsense that you're trying to misconstrue is futile since Goku used greater power than his base against Gohan, so him holding back is just a reference to him not using Super Saiyan.

What you think was established is of no relevance. It isn't stated anywhere that Goku went Super Saiyan, then suppressed himself below his previous state. And there's no example in the story of Goku transforming against an opponent and suppressing himself below his previous level. If you think that statement of Goku doing this exists, then I'd like to see it.

[Marlowe89]

There's something horribly wrong with that idea. And the fact that this must be the case in order for your interpretation to work pretty much invalidates your entire theory on these tremendously nerfed characters.

It must be the case because it is the case. We already know from the exhibition match that Basil is far weaker than Buu, even in his drugged form, and we already know from the tournament itself that Universe 9's other fighters are weaker than Basil and the other Trio De Dangers. This isn't open to interpretation at all, this is a matter of you straight-up denying what the show explicitly conveys. It's not even disputable.

I don't know if they're actually weaker than Namek Frieza, but they're certainly not nearly as strong as Buu. My outlook on the strength of characters in the show doesn't need to hinge on assuming that these things are true because they already are. Take it up with the writers if you're not cool with how their strength was portrayed.

I think it's a disservice to the form to presume that its only use is in showcasing pure power because a Saiyan somehow needs that power when his/her base form is insufficient.

I think it's a disservice to the form to presume that its use isn't about showcasing power in scenes where the context is entirely about power.

I mentioned Goku and Gohan's dialogue for a reason, which specifically indicated that their Super Saiyan forms were necessitated by their battle clearly becoming more serious than before. The viewer obviously isn't going to watch such a scene and immediately draw the conclusion that Goku must have transformed only to restrain himself to a level weaker than his base state. That's totally asinine.

[PFM18]

You didn't address my point. Ultimate Gohan>Piccolo and Piccolo easily beat Bergamo whom is comparable to base Goku.

If what you're saying is true then Goku wouldn't have used a power above his base strength. That's all that's needed to dismantle your stance. The dialogue points towards a spar that got serious and Goku used a power greater than his base strength. There's nothing to interpret. A Gohan that's weaker than his Boo arc strength was an opponent that Goku deemed strong enough for Super Saiyan.

Those 5 points you brought up are either conjecture or irrelevant to what you're trying to assert. The fact that your stance requires you to ignore events from the story and make a pile of assumptions to justify it makes it dubious at best. Can't take it seriously.

See your first problem is that you are mixing and matching the manga and anime talking about how Piccolo beat Bergamo and what not. This cannot be done they are completely different continuities.

Goku was established to be suppressed. This arc well established that you can be in a transformed state and still be weaker than a non-transformed state if you are suppressed enough. There is no reason to believe that Goku was going all out nor is there reason to believe that Goku needed SSJ.

I don't know if you are just being purposely stubborn or what but obviously the 5 points I mentioned are very relevant to what I was trying to assert. You are implying that Goku in base is weaker than Buu Arc Ultimate Gohan, that is just not the case based on the 5 things that I mentioned. The story makes it very clear the massive difference in power between current Goku and the Buu arc iteration of him. SSJ Goku by BoG was made abundantly clear to be far above any iteration of Vegetto from the Buu Arc. If you did not pay attentiont to the things that implied this then I do not know what to tell you. From Buu Arc -> ToP Arc the difference in power is similar to the difference between Piccolo Jr Arc -> Buu Arc Goku. The difference from the end of the previous series to the end of the current series is massive, that is just how this works.

There's nothing particularly wrong with that idea. If they're weaker than Basil in his base form as they were implied to be, who himself was dramatically weaker than Buu, I can't imagine them being that much stronger than early Cell arc levels at the absolute most.

There's something horribly wrong with that idea. And the fact that this must be the case in order for your interpretation to work pretty much invalidates your entire theory on these tremendously nerfed characters. Namek Arc Freeza is irrelevant at this point and anybody other than say Ganos being that weak is ridiculous.

No. The manga is the anime's stated supplementary material and they follow the same outline. No reason whatsoever to consider the idea that Piccolo is somehow weaker or stronger between the mediums. In the story, Piccolo is above Bergamo whom is relative to base Goku. This Piccolo is weaker than Boo arc Gohan. Period.

And your "rebuttal" is again, baseless. Goku powered up above his base strength, so Gohan is above his base strength.

So this "Goku was suppressed" nonsense that you're trying to misconstrue is futile since Goku used greater power than his base against Gohan, so him holding back is just a reference to him not using Super Saiyan.

What you think was established is of no relevance. It isn't stated anywhere that Goku went Super Saiyan, then suppressed himself below his previous state. And there's no example in the story of Goku transforming against an opponent and suppressing himself below his previous level. If you think that statement of Goku doing this exists, then I'd like to see it.

The manga and anime are entirely different and have at some points completely different stories altogether.(see Future Trunks.) To lump them together as one story is just asinine.

You seem to confuse the phrases "baseless" and "I disagree with." You are literally just stating your opinion on the matter with nothing to back it up. You can't really definitively conclude that Goku used power greater than his base power, and even if he did go SSJ to use power stronger than his base, that doesn't mean that Goku's base still isn't>>Gohan's. They fight evenly in base. Goku admits to holding back. They fight in SSJ. They fight evenly again. Basic logic follows that Goku was holding back in both iterations of the fight. So even if Base Goku<SSJ Gohan then it is still possible that Base Goku>>Base Gohan.

You don't really seem to know what the word "relevance" means. I think you mean something more along the lines of "invalid." There's plenty of evidence of Goku suppressing himself below the previous state. Did you not see the Krillin scene? I am not saying definitively that Base Goku>SSJ Gohan because it is impossible to know for certain. But I am saying that it is made abundantly clear that Base Goku>>Base Gohan and SSJ Goku>>SSJ Gohan.

This isn't open to interpretation at all, this is a matter of you straight-up denying what the show explicitly conveys. It's not even disputable.

Just another example of you spouting "THERE'S NO WAY THIS COULD BE INTERPRETED ANY OTHER WAY!!! MY INTERPRETATION IS DEFINITELY RIGHT!!!" sort of drivel again. It is really quite strange that you refuse to think there are alternative explanations. I can't take you seriously anymore at this point

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think it's a disservice to the form to presume that its only use is in showcasing pure power because a Saiyan somehow needs that power when his/her base form is insufficient.

I think it's a disservice to the form to presume that its use isn't about showcasing power in scenes where the context is entirely about power.

I mentioned Goku and Gohan's dialogue for a reason, which specifically indicated that their Super Saiyan forms were necessitated by their battle clearly becoming more serious than before. The viewer obviously isn't going to watch such a scene and immediately draw the conclusion that Goku must have transformed only to restrain himself to a level weaker than his base state. That's totally asinine.

But it's also not out of the realm of possibility, and indeed the interpretation I came to is more than simply likely given how the very next episode played out, with Goku wanting to turn Super Saiyan against Krillin in simple sparring; even when he wasn't allowed to, he was STILL easily taking on Krillin in his base form and was winning while wearing a super-weighted turtle suit made to weigh him down and suppress his power.

We also know that turning Super Saiyan isn't a level of power, but an amplification of the power a base Saiyan possesses; it's entirely feasible that a suppressed Saiyan turning Super Saiyan will result in a suppressed level of Super Saiyan power.

I have a feeling this is another "we fundamentally disagree on approach and perspective", but let's see how this goes, eh?

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

See your first problem is that you are mixing and matching the manga and anime talking about how Piccolo beat Bergamo and what not. This cannot be done they are completely different continuities.

Goku was established to be suppressed. This arc well established that you can be in a transformed state and still be weaker than a non-transformed state if you are suppressed enough. There is no reason to believe that Goku was going all out nor is there reason to believe that Goku needed SSJ.

I don't know if you are just being purposely stubborn or what but obviously the 5 points I mentioned are very relevant to what I was trying to assert. You are implying that Goku in base is weaker than Buu Arc Ultimate Gohan, that is just not the case based on the 5 things that I mentioned. The story makes it very clear the massive difference in power between current Goku and the Buu arc iteration of him. SSJ Goku by BoG was made abundantly clear to be far above any iteration of Vegetto from the Buu Arc. If you did not pay attentiont to the things that implied this then I do not know what to tell you. From Buu Arc -> ToP Arc the difference in power is similar to the difference between Piccolo Jr Arc -> Buu Arc Goku. The difference from the end of the previous series to the end of the current series is massive, that is just how this works.



There's something horribly wrong with that idea. And the fact that this must be the case in order for your interpretation to work pretty much invalidates your entire theory on these tremendously nerfed characters. Namek Arc Freeza is irrelevant at this point and anybody other than say Ganos being that weak is ridiculous.

No. The manga is the anime's stated supplementary material and they follow the same outline. No reason whatsoever to consider the idea that Piccolo is somehow weaker or stronger between the mediums. In the story, Piccolo is above Bergamo whom is relative to base Goku. This Piccolo is weaker than Boo arc Gohan. Period.

And your "rebuttal" is again, baseless. Goku powered up above his base strength, so Gohan is above his base strength.

So this "Goku was suppressed" nonsense that you're trying to misconstrue is futile since Goku used greater power than his base against Gohan, so him holding back is just a reference to him not using Super Saiyan.

What you think was established is of no relevance. It isn't stated anywhere that Goku went Super Saiyan, then suppressed himself below his previous state. And there's no example in the story of Goku transforming against an opponent and suppressing himself below his previous level. If you think that statement of Goku doing this exists, then I'd like to see it.

You seem to confuse the phrases "baseless" and "I disagree with." You are literally just stating your opinion on the matter with nothing to back it up. You can't really definitively conclude that Goku used power greater than his base power, and even if he did go SSJ to use power stronger than his base, that doesn't mean that Goku's base still isn't>>Gohan's. They fight evenly in base. Goku admits to holding back. They fight in SSJ. They fight evenly again. Basic logic follows that Goku was holding back in both iterations of the fight. So even if Base Goku<SSJ Gohan then it is still possible that Base Goku>>Base Gohan.

You don't really seem to know what the word "relevance" means. I think you mean something more along the lines of "invalid." There's plenty of evidence of Goku suppressing himself below the previous state. Did you not see the Krillin scene? I am not saying definitively that Base Goku>SSJ Gohan because it is impossible to know for certain. But I am saying that it is made abundantly clear that Base Goku>>Base Gohan and SSJ Goku>>SSJ Gohan.

This isn't open to interpretation at all, this is a matter of you straight-up denying what the show explicitly conveys. It's not even disputable.

Just another example of you spouting "THERE'S NO WAY THIS COULD BE INTERPRETED ANY OTHER WAY!!! MY INTERPRETATION IS DEFINITELY RIGHT!!!" sort of drivel again. It is really quite strange that you refuse to think there are alternative explanations. I can't take you seriously anymore at this point

He transformed, so he was above his previous state. If Base Goku was above Gohan then he would've just used more base power instead of using more power than his base.
That's as conclusive as it gets. I don't need to show countless examples showing Super Saiyan Goku>Base Goku. The fact that Goku needed to transform to match Gohan proves that SSJ Gohan>Base Goku. There's no ambiguity about it.

The nonsense you're misconstruing about Goku being suppressed is null and void. He needed a power greater than his base against Gohan. So this "suppression" you're going on about is just not using Super Saiyan. It wouldn't logically be anything else.

You were already addressed on this. Your attempts to try to twist the dialogue between Goku and Gohan aren't worth addressing. Goku held back in order to test Gohan. Then after he tested Gohan, deemed his power worthy enough for Super Saiyan.

The Krillin example is irrelevant. Goku didn't use Blue then suppress below his base power, just like he didn't use Super Saiyan against Gohan then decrease his power below the level he was at 5 seconds ago.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You know, I just realized what the biggest crux of the current debate is:

We're arguing about suppression, but we're arguing completely different kinds of suppression. I think it goes something like this:

The kind that the camp I fall into argues for is "heavily suppressed level transforms, with the following transformation also being heavily suppressed as a result".

The other major camp argues for "transforms unsuppressed, with the following transformation then being suppressed down heavily".

Personally speaking, I think the former is the one that's more accurate for the examples provided by both groups, but that's just me; both camps can be argued for.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

The "suppression" that occurred is simply not using Super Saiyan. There's no need to overcomplicate it and the other explanations have no basis whatsoever in the story.

[supercat]

By the ToP, both Buuhan and SSJ Vegetto are both likely in a very low-tier as far as strength goes. Techniques such as Candy Beam may assist Buu a tad, but that would likely be as far as it goes. Android 18 wrecked Giant Ribrianne, who had grown stronger since her fight with Base Goku; which by the way, was in no shape or form a walk in the park for Goku. This alone suggests the following:

Android 18 (after flashback) > Giant Ribrianne > / = Base Goku = Final Form Frieza > SSJ3 Vegetto (Buu saga) > SSJ2 Vegetto (Buu saga) > SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) > Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ3 Gotenks (Buu saga) > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

Even if we assume Base Goku was holding back a good deal of power, we'd still have the following:

Base Goku (full power) = Final Form Frieza > Android 18 (after flashback) > Giant Ribrianne > / = Base Goku (suppressed) > SSJ3 Vegetto (Buu saga) > SSJ2 Vegetto (Buu saga) > SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) > Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ3 Gotenks (Buu saga) > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

So point is, there likely isn't much room for Buu to be relevant when even mid-tier characters like Android 18 are seemingly that powerful.

It's really not that difficult to understand why Base Goku is as strong as he is as it was pretty clear that he absorbed the ritual powers. Plus, all that training that took place between the battle with Beerus and the ToP... Yeah, I'd be quite surprised if Base Goku and Vegeta weren't stronger than Buuhan and SSJ Vegetto.

There are also numerous feats that support this.

-Base Goku fought better against Monaka-Beerus; a version of Beerus that was seemingly putting in far more effort than he did against SSJ3 Goku.

This is the same SSJ3 Goku that was implied to be stronger than Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks. Beerus only acknowledged Vegeta as being superior to Goku. No such acknowledgement was given to Gohan or Gotenks; a strong implication for the following: Enraged Vegeta > SSJ3 Goku (vs Beerus) > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

Plus, Ultimate Gohan went down so quickly, it's hard grouping him into the same level as Goku.

-Copy Base Vegeta flat-out tanked all of SSJ3 Gotenks' attacks just moments before utterly humiliating him. This implies that there is a huge gap between the two.

-Goku's battle with Hit strongly implies that he had gotten at least 10x stronger between the universe 6 tournament and ToP. Therefore, even if Base Goku just reached SSJ Vegetto-tier sometime in RoF, it's very likely that by the ToP he surpassed SSJ3 Vegetto.

-Piccolo flat-out destroyed SSJ2 Gohan (who could have been pretty close to his Ultimate self), trained some more and got stronger, but was completely useless against Base Goku. My guess is Piccolo is probably somewhere closer to SSJ Vegetto at that time, if not a bit stronger.

So yeah, very unlikely Buu would fare well in the tournament.

[Marlowe89]

But it's also not out of the realm of possibility

My issue with your interpretation isn't so much that I deem it impossible per se, but more that there's just nothing within the scene itself that would imply it. There's nothing by the way of dialogue or context that would feasibly suggest Goku to hold back that massively during his actual match with Gohan, especially given the entire point of the scene, yet there's plenty to feasibly suggest the inverse.

That's just the way I see it, really. People are seriously overcomplicating this.

Just another example of you spouting "THERE'S NO WAY THIS COULD BE INTERPRETED ANY OTHER WAY!!! MY INTERPRETATION IS DEFINITELY RIGHT!!!" sort of drivel again.

You mean another example of "uhhh what was unambiguously stated/shown wasn't ACTUALLY stated/shown guys!!!1" on your part. Universe 9's warriors being weaker than Basil and Basil being weaker than Buu was directly established in the show. There's no alternative interpretation because it's not a matter of interpretation. Your unreasonable attempt at suggesting otherwise is both hilarious and utterly nonsensical.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

But it's also not out of the realm of possibility

My issue with your interpretation isn't so much that I deem it impossible per se, but more that there's just nothing within the scene itself that would imply it. There's nothing by the way of dialogue or context that would feasibly suggest Goku to hold back that massively during his actual match with Gohan, especially given the entire point of the scene, yet there's plenty to feasibly suggest the inverse.

That's just the way I see it, really. It's nothing more complicated than that.

Just another example of you spouting "THERE'S NO WAY THIS COULD BE INTERPRETED ANY OTHER WAY!!! MY INTERPRETATION IS DEFINITELY RIGHT!!!" sort of drivel again.

You mean another example of "uhhh what was unambiguously stated/shown wasn't ACTUALLY stated/shown guys!!!1". Universe 9's warriors being weaker than Basil and Basil being weaker than Buu was directly established in the show. There's no alternative interpretation because it's not a matter of interpretation. Your attempt at suggesting otherwise is both hilarious and utterly nonsensical.

It's not quite as simple as that; the very next episode shows that turning Super Saiyan is something Goku likes to do to when sparring and when he wants to show his opponents that he's getting stronger, even while suppressed.

I acknowledge that your perspective is different, but I think you should also acknowledge that these things are never as cut and dry as you make it out to be; to say otherwise and try to argue against the kind of point I just made, for example, is basically committing the same error in judgment that you presumably attempt to avoid. Basically, you can't have your cake and eat it, too; as an example, you can't really say that Goku needed to turn SS against Gohan and then state that his desire to do the same against Krillin is somehow not a contradiction of your viewpoint despite the contextual circumstances amounting to the same general ideas and themes of Goku being bored and wanting to spar and get excited doing so.

The "suppression" that occurred is simply not using Super Saiyan. There's no need to overcomplicate it and the other explanations have no basis whatsoever in the story.

There's also no need to say that coming up with inventive explanations that don't attempt to simply retcon things isn't necessary; we're in an online forum where people from across the globe are able to partake in and discuss the DB franchise, all with different perspectives and outlooks on the limited facts and abundant vagueness.

What looks like fact and is simple to one person can just as easily be construed as misinterpretation and complexity to another; don't assume you have the facts until they're given to you by the fact-giver.

[PFM18]

Basil being weaker than Buu was directly established in the show. There's no alternative interpretation

I never said otherwise nor did I imply it? What are you talking about dude? I didn't say that Basil wasn't stronger than the other U9 members either. I have no idea how you came to the conclusion.

I think it was implied but I don't recall anything particularly explicit showing that the other U9 members were weaker than Basil, but I mean vice versa wasn't definitively shown either. I do believe Basil> the other U9 members but to say they are Namek Freeza level is absolutely ridiculous.

The "suppression" that occurred is simply not using Super Saiyan. There's no need to overcomplicate it and the other explanations have no basis whatsoever in the story.

It is baffling to me that you speak on this with such certainty. You are just kind of declaring that anybody that disagrees with you is wrong.

If this "suppression" was not using Super Saiyan, then using Super Saiyan would still be considered to be "suppressed." If it was referring to the forms themselves then why didn't Goku go SSB to no longer be suppressed at all? Oh right, because he fought suppressed in base and suppressed in SSJ. He was holding back because he was fighting his kid in a casual sparring match. Why would Gohan be so amazed by this suppressed Goku's speed if they were so even?

There's also no need to say that coming up with inventive explanations that don't attempt to simply retcon things isn't necessary; we're in an online forum where people from across the globe are able to partake in and discuss the DB franchise, all with different perspectives and outlooks on the limited facts and abundant vagueness.

What looks like fact and is simple to one person can just as easily be construed as misinterpretation and complexity to another; don't assume you have the facts until they're given to you by the fact-giver.

THANK YOU. OH MY GOD.

these "inventive explanations" as he puts it, are required to rationalize this while making it fit within the rest of the story without a retcon. Just looking at the scene in a vaccum and only looking at it for face value is just irrational. Then you end up with an interpretation that contradicts the entire rest of the story

By the ToP, both Buuhan and SSJ Vegetto are both likely in a very low-tier as far as strength goes. Techniques such as Candy Beam may assist Buu a tad, but that would likely be as far as it goes. Android 18 wrecked Giant Ribrianne, who had grown stronger since her fight with Base Goku; which by the way, was in no shape or form a walk in the park for Goku. This alone suggests the following:

Android 18 (after flashback) > Giant Ribrianne > / = Base Goku = Final Form Frieza > SSJ3 Vegetto (Buu saga) > SSJ2 Vegetto (Buu saga) > SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) > Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ3 Gotenks (Buu saga) > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

Even if we assume Base Goku was holding back a good deal of power, we'd still have the following:

Base Goku (full power) = Final Form Frieza > Android 18 (after flashback) > Giant Ribrianne > / = Base Goku (suppressed) > SSJ3 Vegetto (Buu saga) > SSJ2 Vegetto (Buu saga) > SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) > Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ3 Gotenks (Buu saga) > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

So point is, there likely isn't much room for Buu to be relevant when even mid-tier characters like Android 18 are seemingly that powerful.

It's really not that difficult to understand why Base Goku is as strong as he is as it was pretty clear that he absorbed the ritual powers. Plus, all that training that took place between the battle with Beerus and the ToP... Yeah, I'd be quite surprised if Base Goku and Vegeta weren't stronger than Buuhan and SSJ Vegetto.

There are also numerous feats that support this.

-Base Goku fought better against Monaka-Beerus; a version of Beerus that was seemingly putting in far more effort than he did against SSJ3 Goku.

This is the same SSJ3 Goku that was implied to be stronger than Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks. Beerus only acknowledged Vegeta as being superior to Goku. No such acknowledgement was given to Gohan or Gotenks; a strong implication for the following: Enraged Vegeta > SSJ3 Goku (vs Beerus) > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

Plus, Ultimate Gohan went down so quickly, it's hard grouping him into the same level as Goku.

-Copy Base Vegeta flat-out tanked all of SSJ3 Gotenks' attacks just moments before utterly humiliating him. This implies that there is a huge gap between the two.

-Goku's battle with Hit strongly implies that he had gotten at least 10x stronger between the universe 6 tournament and ToP. Therefore, even if Base Goku just reached SSJ Vegetto-tier sometime in RoF, it's very likely that by the ToP he surpassed SSJ3 Vegetto.

-Piccolo flat-out destroyed SSJ2 Gohan (who could have been pretty close to his Ultimate self), trained some more and got stronger, but was completely useless against Base Goku. My guess is Piccolo is probably somewhere closer to SSJ Vegetto at that time, if not a bit stronger.

So yeah, very unlikely Buu would fare well in the tournament.

I just don't think I am ready to make the leap to say current Android 18>Buu Arc SSJ3 Vegetto. I don't blame you for thinking it but I feel like it may be a bit much. Is she stronger than Buuhan? Yes. Most definitely. SSJ3 Vegetto? Maybe not. I am not entirely convinced that she is stronger than current Base Goku.(Who obviously is stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto)

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

If there's no basis for the "alternative explanations" then there's no reason for them to be considered viable. Absolutely nothing in the Goku vs Gohan fight validates the idea that Goku was holding back.

And twisting the events of Goku vs Krillin in order to claim that Goku transforming then holding back below his previous level has a precedence is not worth addressing. Nowhere in the Krillin vs Goku fight did Goku use Super Saiyan when he didn't need to. And the reason for him using Blue was stated in-universe with the explanation being that he wanted to test Krillin's resolve.

Nothing in the Goku vs Gohan fight implies that Goku used Super Saiyan then held back to below his previous state. So it's being assumed and isn't worth addressing. All that's shown is that Goku tested Gohan's power in base, then used Super Saiyan in response to Gohan's strength. So if Goku needed Super Saiyan to match Gohan, then SSJ Gohan is stronger than Base Goku.

Goku even transforming at all with nothing stating that he suppressed below the base state he was just using 5 seconds prior is all that's needed to come to the correct conclusion. I'm not even sure how this is being contested. The opposing side is just being intentionally daft at this point.

[Bullza]

My personal take with later info accounted for is that Piccolo without any weights and base Gohan were roughly equal at the time, and while Gohan did improve himself afterwards from training with Piccolo, Piccolo made overall greater gains than Gohan did in his base form, allowing him to eventually catch up to and surpass even SS Gohan.

Well that's sort of how it would look but with how Piccolo went from being around Gohan's Base level to around his Super Saiyan 2 level when he would also be stronger at this point from the training would mean Piccolo would have grown about a hundred times stronger in a year.

Seems a bit farfetched but is he still supposed to be below Good Buu or he is stronger than him now?

For Gohan to drop from Ultimate Gohan to below his Cell Saga self it would have to be a downright massive drop. Like I am talking like a difference of around 60x. Such a colossal difference is not reasonable.

It wouldn't have to be anything like that because his Ultimate Form appears to be a transformation. Meaning that sometime after Kid Buu he was no longer able to access that form which would put him back around the level of where he was after training with the Z Sword.

Then due to the lack of training he would have progressively have declined to be weaker than he was at the Cell Games.

The colossal drop would mainly be from not being able to even transform into his Ultimate Form anymore.

Tagoma indicated that Gohan was indeed the strongest of his team.

Which part was this again?

Weren't people bitching because Boo tier fighters were given Goku and Vegeta (Who are stronger than Gotenks) trouble before? Now below Namek Freeza level is alright?

No it would just make it even more complicated but it's a possibility.

Base Goku was weaker than Frieza. You would think that would be true for Vegeta and Gohan.

This same Gohan who the FighterZ video game, which might just be a game but still knows better than us, said was weaker than he was at the Cell Games. The same Gohan who hadn't been training at all, said that with his "current body" he couldn't maintain Super Saiyan for that long.

So it isn't that much of a reach that he was below Frieza on Namek, not really. Which would mean Basil and Lavender would probably be as well. That itself is not really that much of a reach because we already know they are both far below Buu to begin with and Krillin didn't give Basil a lot of trouble but we saw them clashing physically and he was doing ok.

How Bergamo fits in comparison is awkward though.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

If there's no basis for the "alternative explanations" then there's no reason for them to be considered viable. Absolutely nothing in the Goku vs Gohan fight validates the idea that Goku was holding back.

And twisting the events of Goku vs Krillin in order to claim that Goku transforming then holding back below his previous level has a precedence is not worth addressing. Nowhere in the Krillin vs Goku fight did Goku use Super Saiyan when he didn't need to. And the reason for him using Blue was stated in-universe with the explanation being that he wanted to test Krillin's resolve.

Nothing in the Goku vs Gohan fight implies that Goku used Super Saiyan then held back to below his previous state. So it's being assumed and isn't worth addressing. All that's shown is that Goku tested Gohan's power in base, then used Super Saiyan in response to Gohan's strength. So if Goku needed Super Saiyan to match Gohan, then SSJ Gohan is stronger than Base Goku.

Goku even transforming at all with nothing stating that he suppressed below the base state he was just using 5 seconds prior is all that's needed to come to the correct conclusion. I'm not even sure how this is being contested. The opposing side is just being intentionally daft at this point.

Did you seriously even look at my rebuttal to "suppression" earlier?

Nobody is f**king saying "suppressing to a level lower than previous level even though already transformed". Literally NOBODY is saying that. Stop blatantly misrepresenting for the sake of some asinine point about "how little sense we make". What WE'RE saying, and not those imaginary people you invented, is that suppressed base Goku transformed to showcase a clear increase in power; said suppressed base form also results in a suppressed Super Saiyan form because Super Saiyan multiplies one's power at a given time.

[PFM18]

Absolutely nothing in the Goku vs Gohan fight validates the idea that Goku was holding back.

Except, ya know, the part where he admits to holding back. And it is never explicitly refuted.

Your INDIVIDUAL INTERPRETATION not UNDISPUTABLE FACT(since apparently you have trouble distinguishing the two.) is that the fact that he went SSJ is proof that he wasn't holding back. (as if he has never held back in his SSJ form before or since) And that is ok, but you can't go around making statements like "absolutely nothing" as though you are definitely right. All of this stuff is very vague and there is room for interpretation. If you say otherwise, then I can't help but be a little bit flabbergasted by that.

Nobody is f**king saying "suppressing to a level lower than previous level even though already transformed". Literally NOBODY is saying that. Stop blatantly misrepresenting for the sake of some asinine point about "how little sense we make". What WE'RE saying, and not those imaginary people you invented, is that suppressed base Goku transformed to showcase a clear increase in power; said suppressed base form also results in a suppressed Super Saiyan form because Super Saiyan multiplies one's power at a given time.

Well said. I think he is a little bit confused. Although I did say it is possible that is the case, even though I do not believe that is the case.

I thought it was clear that Goku was suppressed in base then he powers up to SSJ and he is a suppressed SSJ state. Again, since like you said Super Saiyan multiplies one's power at a given time.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

You've posted zero evidence that Goku transformed to show "a clear increase in power". Nothing whatsoever. You're saying I'm twisting the argument but if you're claiming that Base Goku>SSJ Gohan that's ultimately what you have to claim. You would have to claim that Goku was using less power in SSJ than he's capable of in base.

But nothing implies it and instead, Goku is shown using power above his base state with nothing stating that he was using less power than base.
Goku powered up above his base form and even then didn't overwhelm Gohan. That's what's shown. You can't post anything from the fight that supports what you're claiming.

Not even going to entertain the nonsense about about the other guy constantly trying to twist the dialogue and ignore the order of events. It was already refuted multiple times and if he isn't getting it and keeps calling it "vague", then there's no helping him.

[PFM18]

You've posted zero evidence that Goku transformed to show "a clear increase in power". Nothing whatsoever. You're saying I'm twisting the argument but if you're claiming that Base Goku>SSJ Gohan that's ultimately what you have to claim. You would have to claim that Goku was using less power in SSJ than he's capable of in base.

But nothing implies it and instead, Goku is shown using power above his base state with nothing stating that he was using less power than base.
Goku powered up above his base form and even then didn't overwhelm Gohan. That's what's shown. You can't post anything from the fight that supports what you're claiming.

Dude, do you even read what I say?

I literally just clarified that I was NOT saying that Goku's SSJ state was NOT using less power than his Base state. I only acknowledged that it is possible.

Suppressed Goku goes Super Saiyan and he is still suppressed. it is not rocket science.

[Marlowe89]

It's not quite as simple as that; the very next episode shows that turning Super Saiyan is something Goku likes to do to when sparring and when he wants to show his opponents that he's getting stronger, even while suppressed.

It is as simple as that. There's nothing vague about the scene whatsoever beyond pure disingenuousness by people who refuse to believe that Goku and Gohan could possibly be comparable in the same forms.

Not sure why you're mentioning Krillin as if that somehow exposes a fallacy in my point. It doesn't. If Goku wasn't specifically stated or implied to be holding back against Krillin in Super Saiyan either, there's no argument to make. Your point is completely moot here.

The only person in this thread trying to "have their cake and eat it too" is the guy selectively attributing a critique on my debate etiquette compared to everyone else. It's a discussion forum; don't expect me to forfeit calling a bullshit "interpretation" attempting to tip-toe around the facts exactly what it is.