"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Bergamo]

I honestly think that this is the ToP chapter we've all been waiting for, but one thing I didn't like was how easily Caulifla broke the tournament arena. This is especially egregious, because the arena was fine after Goku's powerful kamehameha in Chapter 35, and because Goku and Vegeta were harmed by blocks of Klangite in the Goku Black arc.

[IndieBooToo]

Also, it seems that SSB Goku did land a direct blow to BSSJ Kale that hurt her. The fight between Goku and Kale wasn't over. It got interrupted, so there's no way to say. However, I'm pretty sure that Base Kale > SSJ Cabba and SSJ Caulifla, which means > Base Goku and Vegeta too.

No CSSB Goku took Kale by surprise. Then he got overpowered when she fought him.

Also this chapter was ass.

[Miracles]

omg Her muscular mode could hurt golden frieza! toyo just gave kale even more asspull than the anime.

Would you people pay attention. It's no magic trick in the anime or manga that Kale is blue level and more. Her potential threat was just represented to be that strong.
In the anime she walked through a blue Kamehameha with no damage whatsoever, now in the manga she smacks golden freeza around who is blue level.
Face it, in both outlines Toriyama wanted Kale blue level due to her hidden potential being that strong.

[FortuneSSJ]

I usually don't post my thoughts here until I read the chapter translated, but I don't need translation to say Base Kale is a much better character here.
In the anime she seems useless in her base form. Here she can kick ass and be a badass at the same time.

[IndieBooToo]

omg Her muscular mode could hurt golden frieza! toyo just gave kale even more asspull than the anime.

Would you people pay attention. It's no magic trick in the anime or manga that Kale is blue level and more. Her potential threat was just represented to be that strong.
In the anime she walked through a blue Kamehameha with no damage whatsoever, now in the manga she smacks golden freeza around who is blue level.
Face it, in both outlines Toriyama wanted Kale blue level due to her hidden potential being that strong.

Frieza literally laughed it off. He was sandbagging for fun. He even got mad at Goku for interfering in his fight just when he was about to get serious. Kale's power level is just a Toyo thing not a Toriyama thing.

[Dragono]

There is no clear evidence that blue and golden are equal in the manga because we never saw that fight.

You saw RoF SSB Goku vs Golden Freeza. Golden Freeza is stronger than he was in RoF. He got beaten by BSSJ Kale. This means by logic that BSSJ is already greater than a RoF SSB Goku. Yes, we don't know about ToP SSB Goku, but Goku and Freeza beat each other up just before the ToP started in the manga just like the anime. So a Saiyan without any god ki, the BSSJ transformation would be a greater multiplier than SSG itself. That's what this is saying.

That fight never happened in the manga, Blue was revealed in heroes. Freeza was about to go golden but we never saw it.


The way Toyotaro treats villains in this manga is evidence to say Freeza wasn't as strong as Goku was when they did fight.

[Khandom101]

omg Her muscular mode could hurt golden frieza! toyo just gave kale even more asspull than the anime.

Would you people pay attention. It's no magic trick in the anime or manga that Kale is blue level and more. Her potential threat was just represented to be that strong.
In the anime she walked through a blue Kamehameha with no damage whatsoever, now in the manga she smacks golden freeza around who is blue level.
Face it, in both outlines Toriyama wanted Kale blue level due to her hidden potential being that strong.

But the same Goku (remind you that he is extremely worn out after his battle with jiren) manhandles both Ssj2 caulifla and a much stronger kale in his weaker Ssg state in the anime. its been shown time and time again that Goku is known to hold back a lot in the anime. he even used Ssb on krillin but does that mean he's as strong as Goku "HELL NO".

And not just that, a "worn out" Ssj2 Goku was handling those two fairly well in the anime but as Ssg he was on a whole new level.

I mean just look at this.


It makes no sense for Kale to be this strong in the manga. One more reason why I prefer the anime.

[IndieBooToo]

There is no clear evidence that blue and golden are equal in the manga because we never saw that fight.

You saw RoF SSB Goku vs Golden Freeza. Golden Freeza is stronger than he was in RoF. He got beaten by BSSJ Kale. This means by logic that BSSJ is already greater than a RoF SSB Goku. Yes, we don't know about ToP SSB Goku, but Goku and Freeza beat each other up just before the ToP started in the manga just like the anime. So a Saiyan without any god ki, the BSSJ transformation would be a greater multiplier than SSG itself. That's what this is saying.

That fight never happened in the manga, Blue was revealed in heroes. Freeza was about to go golden but we never saw it.


The way Toyotaro treats villains in this manga is evidence to say Freeza wasn't as strong as Goku was when they did fight.

Except you have no proof for that last sentence.

[Miracles]

Frieza literally laughed it off. He was sandbagging for fun. He even got mad at Goku for interfering in his fight just when he was about to get serious. Kale's power level is just a Toyo thing not a Toriyama thing.

You got translations of those images with context?

But the same Goku (remind you that he is extremely worn out after his battle with jiren) manhandles both Ssj2 caulifla and a much stronger kale in his weaker Ssg state in the anime. its been shown time and time again that Goku is known to hold back a lot in the anime. he even used Ssb on krillin but does that mean he's as strong as Goku "HELL NO".

And not just that, a "worn out" Ssj2 Goku was handling those two fairly well in the anime but as Ssg he was on a whole new level.

I mean just look at this.


It makes no sense for Kale to be this strong in the manga. One more reason why I prefer the anime.

The anime itself stated Goku got stronger after the Jiren fight. This was stated by Caulifla when she fought SSJ2 Goku and asked "is this the same SSJ2 power?"
Goku broke his limits and got a power boost after the Jiren battle. This is why red Goku was able to handle a stronger Kale later and able to go head up with a fused character in Blue.
Not to mention Goku was recovering strength and stamina as he was fighting Kale and Caulifla and even Whis stated Goku's senses were getting sharper as the fight went on.
So the anime and manga are saying the same thing Kale is blue levels and more.

[IndieBooToo]

Frieza literally laughed it off. He was sandbagging for fun. He even got mad at Goku for interfering in his fight just when he was about to get serious. Kale's power level is just a Toyo thing not a Toriyama thing.

You got translations of those images with context?

But the same Goku (remind you that he is extremely worn out after his battle with jiren) manhandles both Ssj2 caulifla and a much stronger kale in his weaker Ssg state in the anime. its been shown time and time again that Goku is known to hold back a lot in the anime. he even used Ssb on krillin but does that mean he's as strong as Goku "HELL NO".

And not just that, a "worn out" Ssj2 Goku was handling those two fairly well in the anime but as Ssg he was on a whole new level.

I mean just look at this.


It makes no sense for Kale to be this strong in the manga. One more reason why I prefer the anime.

The anime itself stated Goku got stronger after the Jiren fight. This was stated by Caulifla when she fought SSJ2 Goku and asked "is this the same SSJ2 power?"
Goku broke his limits and got a power boost after the Jiren battle. This is why red Goku was able to handle a stronger Kale later and able to go head up with a fused character in Blue.
Not to mention Goku was recovering strength and stamina as he was fighting Kale and Caulifla and even Whis stated Goku's senses were getting sharper as the fight went on.
So the anime and manga are saying the same thing Kale is blue levels and more.

I can understand the language. Will be doing translations later once I come home.

[Bergamo]

Since Kale is debateably more powerful than Goku in base and she is using a unique transformation, can it really be said that it doesn't make sense that she's as powerful as Goku?

[TysonWine]

Since Kale is debateably more powerful than Goku in base and she is using a unique transformation, can it really be said that it doesn't make sense that she's as powerful as Goku?

Nope. Not sure I like it, but we can't say it doesn't make sense for two reasons.

1. We don't know the extent of base Kale's power

2. That's not an ordinary SSJ transformation. If it's specific to her, we don't know the multiplier

To not like it is one thing, but we can't say it doesn't make sense because there's no...formula so to speak to judge a brand new transformation.

[TKA]

I think we need a more robust spoiler policy here, to be quite honest.

[Doctor.]

I think we need a more robust spoiler policy here, to be quite honest.

What would you suggest?

The mods used to close the thread until the chapter officially released. Not sure if that slipped their mind or they've given up on the idea.

[Cursemark505]

Some of the responses here are interesting.



-In the anime Kale took a kamehameha from ssjb Goku when he was holding back and hits him and the backlash was astronomical. People went on rants, threatened to drop the series, complained about powerscaling, writing etc.

-Manga Kale wrecks Full powered Golden Freeza & was about to wreck Mssjb Goku and most people are fine with it and some even go as far as to praise it.

The bias towards the manga has been clear for a long time now, but now it's 100% solidified.

[jeffbr92]

Not gonna stick around this thread because I know it's gonna annoy me lmao

[spoiler]



[/spoiler]

Why? There's nothing wrong with these, Toyotaro is finally giving something I can enjoy on his story, the only problem is that I would prefer Berserker Kale to go on a rampage on multiple fighters and not just stick with Freeza.

Yea... I was hoping Toyotaro wouldn't do the same thing that the anime did, but he kinda made it worse.

How so?

Why are we supposed to like these two again?

Because they're Saiyans with pussy.

That made me laugh more than I should lol

[Omniboy]

He still excels at those training methods compared to his piers, though. His enthusiasm and dedication is constantly emphasized. Goku is certainly inherently gifted compared to, say, the humans, that's the entire point of the first half of the series. The point of the Saiyan arc, however, is to flip that on its head and put Goku's strength (and, by extension, the Saiyan's) into perspective. He may be the strongest being on Earth, but he was only sent there because Earth is a weak planet to begin with. And even though we thought he was such a gifted fighter, he was deemed as trash by his parents; and his lack of innate ability in comparison to his Saiyan compatriots is proven by the fact that he was so weak in comparison to Raditz. And his entire race, though they have potential to become stronger, are also ants in the face of Freeza's top guys, let alone Freeza himself. Goku's strength being put into perspective like this serves only one purpose: to emphasize how hard he has to work to overcome those gaps, and this is clearly verbalized in his fight with Vegeta. Yes, he got so strong due to a combination of unique training methods, insane dedication and his Saiyan-specific traits, but these are irrelevant when you consider the fact that none of the other Saiyans got as strong even though they share the same abilities; it's his dedication and his training methods that are emphasized by Vegeta, not his innate ability, when Goku touches down on Namek.

Like I said previously though, you can argue that the following arcs ignore this theme entirely and may even contradict it. That's fine; I'd agree. Super doesn't necessarily have to adhere to the same philosophy of the first two arcs of part 2, I get that. However, I'm expressing disappointment over the fact that this accidental piece of narrative genius has been ditched in following arcs and has been actively contradicted in modern Dragon Ball (Minus and EoB as the most extreme examples) and advocating for a return to this theme.

I honestly figured that the theme of the first few arcs of dragon ball z were about preconceived notions of a person's worth based off utterly insignificant things, and people underestimating said person.

[Saiga]

I honestly think that this is the ToP chapter we've all been waiting for, but one thing I didn't like was how easily Caulifla broke the tournament arena. This is especially egregious, because the arena was fine after Goku's powerful kamehameha in Chapter 35, and because Goku and Vegeta were harmed by blocks of Klangite in the Goku Black arc.

The manga has never said the ring is made of Klangite/Katchi Katchin so there's no issue with it supposedly being super durable like in the anime.

[prince212]

Toei guys :We wanted a Broli-like character, but it would be boring to have it be exactly the same. So we made the character a girl, and designed her at Toei Animation. When we showed her to Toriyama-sensei, he went along with it and drew Caulifla.
Toyotaro: I wanted more from kale , like brains and being a thief, Toriyama-sensei approved it and added some innate qualities .
All all them combined made a better thing I.m.o.

[kinisking]

I'm by no means a manga fan boy, but I prefer this kale so much. Love her way of helping caulifla and being a beast in disguise. It made no sense for anime kale to be pathetic and what really annoyed me about her power is how quickly she obtained it. But since manga kale seems like she was already super powerful, that's much easier to swallow.