Doctor. wrote:this is an extremely interesting concept. We are talking about the elimination of multiple universes here and each and every fighter has been chosen to represent their homeland and fight in order to protect their loved ones. The anime touches on the implications of the entire setting during the Zen Exhibition and Obuni's elimination and the manga does the same during the elimination of Bergamo, but the truth is that all of these characters have largely been reduced to nothing more than background decoration. Yes, that may have been a conscious decision on Toriyama and Toyotaro's part, but it's a conscious decision that warrants criticism given the setting they have created, and it's not criticism that should be ignored simply because a coherent story has been created around this incredibly flawed premise. The incredibly interesting setting of this arc was butchered and used as nothing more than an excuse to throw action figures together; that's all there is. There's little to no substance here, regardless of how "cohesive" the "story" actually is.
I totally get where this is coming from. The stakes and the consequences and the moral ambiguity of both holding and participating in this sort of tournament could serve to decidedly underscore the "poisonous" side of Goku's character. That's where it certainly seemed to be going at the beginning, and it's indeed disappointing that it didn't go down that route.
Where I part ways with this dissatisfaction, however, is that we got something else instead. We definitely didn't get the neat thing described above, but that neat thing isn't the sole thing that a storyteller is allowed to do with this sort of concept. An author can do whatever the hell they want. That they told this story rather than that story doesn't entail a flaw, and it doesn't entail butchering. They did something we weren't expecting. The story told largely turned out to be about seeing Freeza develop into a team player, about Jiren and #17 becoming more human and empathetic, about Zeno showing more nuance than we'd been lead to believe he was capable of since his introduction, serving as a significant milestone in Goku's tutelage under Beerus and Whis, and, at least as far as the manga is concerned, strongly foreshadowing the following story arc about Broly.
And it's not like this whole "fight for survival thing" is absent. I hate to compare the manga to the anime, once again, but I feel that the difference in pace helps create different circumstances for that idea to exist in. If one story is taking longer, then there's more time to dwell on consciously talking and thinking about their collective mortality. The more room it has to dwell on these matters, the more grating it feels for the dwelling to be absent. I know I've given the anime some modicum of shit for that. In the manga, the incredibly brisk pace its going at provides little room for this kind of thinking and talking. Shit just keeps happening, and despite that, Cabba still had some time to argue that point to Caulifla this last chapter. The less room there is to dwell on these matters, the less their lack of being dwelt on grates the reader/viewer.
You're not obligated to enjoy or like the arc, but saying that it's "nothing more than an excuse to throw action figures together" just rings disingenuous to me. To say that there's "little to no substance" here seems contingent on ignoring a lot of what's actually going on beyond the spectacle and fireworks.
Doctor. wrote:Nobody is asking a detailed backstory on every character, that is ridiculous, but they are not being properly utilized if they're being tossed out of the ring left and right and the story keeps ignoring the implications that their elimination and the erasure of the universes should have on them and the characters we know.
Again, this is outright dictating what "proper utilization" is allowed to constitute. If they are being tossed out left and right in Kale's rampage, they're helping to sell how insane Kale's rampage is, and in turn foreshadowing how insane Broly's rampage is likely to be. These characters are being "wasted", so that we can get a taste of this "Legendary Saiyan" that the following arc is going to be about (and I don't mean that in a "get a taste for the hype" kind of way). And, as I've acknowledged, sure, you could have them all put up a bit more of a fight and all show off their trademark abilities,
and still have them all get trounced by Kale (letting us have our cake and eat it too), but I don't think that's
necessary to sell the rampage. Like you said, we know from the very premise of the tournament that these people are "chosen to represent their homeland and fight in order to protect their loved ones". In the same way we know everyone in the finals of the Tenkaichi Budokai (prior to the 24th, obviously) must be hot shit, since they passed the preliminaries, even if we don't see their performance there. We know on principle that they're tough dudes, and so their being taken out so rapidly indicates how serious of a threat Kale is.
And that doesn't mean it's perfect, or flawless, or as good as it could possibly be. I agree that if they also showed off
why they were chosen (you know, show rather than tell), it would sell the rampage
that much more, and the story would indeed be
better. I just don't think it's necessary. On the flipside, I do agree that the erasure of universes should have an impact on
some of Universe 7's fighters. While Krillin, Tenshinhan, Roshi, and Piccolo should naturally have
enormous reservations about facilitating the demise of countless lives, Gohan I feel is the best person to do this with: among those on our team with reservations about innocent casualties, he's the most capable of helping to bring that to fruition. More than anyone else in the series, there's room for genuine tension there, between Gohan's sense of morality, and the dire need to protect his own budding family. This is largely wasted in both the anime and the manga, though the anime capitalizes on it more.
Doctor. wrote:If Nam didn't have his backstory, we wouldn't be invested in his fight with Goku; he'd be just another opponent Goku has to beat. The fight is memorable because of the contrast between Nam's desperation and Goku's aloof nature, not simply because the action scenes are cool. We are not simply invested in one character. I don't give a fuck about Goku's fight if I don't care about who he's fighting. I care about Goku's fight if the character he's fighting is interesting. Now, if the opponents Goku & co are fighting for about 50% of this "story" don't have anything I can call interesting, then why the fuck am I watching or reading this piece of shit? To watch some cool fight scenes? I can watch some cool fight scenes whilst being invested in the story, in the action, in the characters and opposing factions, with well communicated stakes and tension, by reading the original series.
I think the problem with this analogy is that you're comparing Namu to the mooks that Kale knocked out. These aren't analogous. Tupper, Murichim, Shantza, and other similar characters are more akin to
those mostly nameless preliminary round Tenkaichi Budokai fighters. The characters like Namu, who you are invested in, whose interests and backstories you understand to some extent, are your Kaflas, your Toppos, your Jirens.
I know I literally just compared them to the finalists above, but they have things in common with both the preliminary fighters and with the finalists, depending on what we're talking about. 
Hawk9211 wrote:Take god ki,namekian book of legends(which seemingly only has stuff on sauna a) or even ultra instinct we do have some superficial explanations and they are supposedly important.But,how much they are expanded and focused on.We do get things like black zenkai or goku’s gain in top all of which is just saiyans are strongest warrior race with unlimited potential.My question is that does it even needs to be mentioned let alone focused and every time act like some mind blowing shit?
Yeah, the whole "whoa did you guys know that Saiyans are strong and stuff!?" shtick certainly doesn't warrant being brought up time and again unless there's something new or interesting being done with it. Black's near death powerups helping his soul and body fuse, or whatever exactly it was, is a pretty use of Saiyan physiology, so I'm down for that. Kale, and subsequently Broly, seems to be providing a new wrinkle on the nature of the Super Saiyan; it's obviously taken from older anime-only material, but it's now making its place in the main continuity, meaning that future Toriyama stories (if they're to happen) will invariably now take this stuff into consideration moving forward (making it actually important as an expansion on the lore, for once). Ultra Instinct was, again, built up as early as Resurrection F. God ki definitely seemed to go nowhere after Blue (and even then, the entire premise of it being undetectable seems to have been forgotten), so I'll give you that. The Namekian Book of Legends, however, never really felt like some big Chekhov's Gun to me. It'd be cool, but I've never expected it to be expanded upon in any significant way.
But
Cipher's earlier point also rings true for me: the background lore doesn't need to be expanded to tell a good and interesting story. Though I'm definitely down for more, it's neither necessary for a good and interesting story, nor is it sufficient for one, in lieu of anything actually substantive.
Hawk9211 wrote:Multiverse is a large place?It is,however that doesn’t mean that we need to do the same bullshit as dbz.First,defeat the strongest guy in the universe then have someone from rra build something stronger than that on earth and then have some demons stronger than that from where.All of that happens because toriyama didn’t think about it,but now we have 12 universes.
Not sure what you're trying to say here.
