Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 15; Still Unreleased

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

...wait is this dub finally being released now?

We don't know for sure yet, although given recent developments we have reason to be cautiously optimistic.

Kai is just a product. Knowledge of this dub's existence/ production could possibly count as "material" non-public information. Material information being any info which could have an impact on the market (in this case I am guessing animation/ anime; dubbing work etc. etc.) regarding the purchasing, selling or holding of stock/ assets.

So I assume, the word getting out about it could catch unwanted attention, could create a chance for someone to gain or avoid losses off of insider knowledge etc. and it's all very illegal. The company (companies?) in question would face a heafty fine for this stuff at the very least as is it classed as criminal activity.

Making bank illegally with this information effects the company outsourcing to Ocean directly, although Ocean would have equal responsibility in safeguarding non-public information. Its not secrecy for the sake of it, it is effectively there to make the market place fair, I suppose.

That is very interesting. It does line up with what TheBlackPaladin said about the higher ups having very specific marketing and release plans, which broken trust can really get in the way of, obviously this dub didn't come out at the ideal time and scenario, but I hope it can still do decently enough if Wow airs it and promotes it as best they can.

Something must have changed regarding rights and licensing in the Ocean dub's absence and Funimation must have secured the broadcasting rights for the UK. Even if they don't have those rights for "Z", "Kai" is a new product.

I don't think Dragon Ball's broadcasting rights work out like that. Maybe they do now for Super, but it didn't for Z in the UK because both Funimation and Ocean's dubs were shown.

[Arian]

Stumbled upon something interesting and somewhat relevant to the conversation so I thought I would share.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

It really surprises me that YTV actively trashed their Dragon Ball archives, with the exception of a few, which would explain they only aired one episode of Z during Retro Week back in 2008. It's a wonder they retained their old tapes of Rocko's Modern Life, but not Dragon Ball. Perhaps because there's a difference between their ongoing relationship with Nickelodeon and their fizzled relationship with Ocean.

I'm not sure how much validity there is to them taking the show off the air follow the Piccolo Jr. Saga, as one, there was very little sexual content during that part of the series, two, they aired the entire series more than once, and lastly, YTV didn't edit the show, Blue Water Studios did if I'm not mistaken.

In any event, you get to hear from the horse's mouth a little bit as to why they won't air Kai, though we pretty much knew.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I'm not surprised YTV scrapped the Dragon Ball archives. It explains why they said they missed the series despite not airing it for a decade.

I don't see how the fact uncut home video releases are on the market would stop them from airing the episodes they have. They've been on the market since 2001 and it didn't stop YTV or Cartoon Network from airing the edited episodes.

Hopefully AB/Mediawan still have the original masters.

[Arian]

I don't see how the fact uncut home video releases are on the market would stop them from airing the episodes they have. They've been on the market since 2001 and it didn't stop YTV or Cartoon Network from airing the edited episodes.

I believe they mean that there are home releases out there, therefore there is no point in them airing the show anymore.

I don't agree at all, but I think that's their meaning.

[Robo4900]

Something must have changed regarding rights and licensing in the Ocean dub's absence and Funimation must have secured the broadcasting rights for the UK. Even if they don't have those rights for "Z", "Kai" is a new product.

I don't think Dragon Ball's broadcasting rights work out like that. Maybe they do now for Super, but it didn't for Z in the UK because both Funimation and Ocean's dubs were shown.

TV broadcasting in general doesn't work like that.

"Having the TV rights" is not really a thing in the sense that Dragon Ball fans seem to parade it around as; if that were the case, Funi will have always had exclusive "TV rights" across North America, and probably the UK too. In truth, the way it works is that companies like Funimation get the license to produce a product, in this case Dragon Ball, and it's up to TV stations and such to buy a license to air that product. The reason Fuimation have always dominated the USA is simply because of the self-fulfilling prophecy that they have always dominated the USA. Meanwhile, Canada and the UK switched to Ocean for one reason or another 50(Or 90 for Canada) episodes after switching to Funimation, and never went back in the original run.

Reason for Kix UK picking up Kai is still unknown, my pet theory still remains that either they lied about not being offered Ocean, and just picked whatever Kai option they saw first, without thinking about it, or there was some clerical screw-up that ended up favouring Funimation' dub(For example, perhaps they said they only wanted HD content. Funimation's dub is apparently listed as HD, while Ocean's is not. So, that clerical error may have been why).
Still, we can argue over the Kix UK situation for years(In fact, we already have), we'll never really get anywhere with it, and ultimately what matters is the now. And right now, there really is no reason for Ocean Kai to not air, so let's just enjoy that for what it is.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I've always found this really funny, because essentially the voice of Piccolo has something of an evolution over the Saban days, and reaches its kind of final form in the Pioneer dub, and that's basically the voice he uses in Westwood. I see a lot of people kind of criticise his Westwood voice for sounding off, but that's pretty much exactly how he sounded in the Westwood dub... I think a lot of the issues people have with Westwood Piccolo are down to the direction, the music, and the generally negative attitude towards the Westwood dub that kind of gets pushed on everyone online.

I've honestly never thought McNeil's Piccolo voice was anything less than fantastic. It was certainly different in the Saban dub because Piccolo hadn't been fully redeemed, but I wouldn't say that made it any more nuanced than his performances in the Westwood dub, if anything it was a lack of time to give it his all (as was the case with all actors due to their direction in that dub). Much like Drummond's Vegeta I expect us to get a more refined and well rehearsed version of his Westwood performance in this dub, and that's very exciting

The reason Fuimation have always dominated the USA is simply because of the self-fulfilling prophecy that they have always dominated the USA.

I'd say the reason the US has only ever broadcast Funimation's dub is because Cartoon Network US never had the issues Cartoon Network UK and YTV had with Funimation. If they did then they could have theoretically acquired the Canadian dubbed episodes from AB.

Still, we can argue over the Kix UK situation for years(In fact, we already have), we'll never really get anywhere with it, and ultimately what matters is the now. And right now, there really is no reason for Ocean Kai to not air, so let's just enjoy that for what it is.

I agree. We may never know the full truth, but the most important thing now is that Ocean Kai airs, someone records it for archival purposes and it performs well to fund a Final Chapters and maybe Super dub. Who knows, if it does well on Wow and Toonami makes a comeback in the UK it can be picked up to reach an even wider audience.

[SX10]

Ah, can't win em all unfortunately we wouldn't learn anything about broadcasting at work, I was only guessing there! But everything else seems to line up with what has happened behind the scenes.

But it is true that there's no real reason Ocean Kai shouldn't make it to Wow's new channel very exciting.

[NitroEX]

Scott's Piccolo was fine, no performance stays the same across that many episodes. I feel as though the critics either don't understand Piccolo's character growth or are just too blinded by nostalgia for the Saban voices to give any credit to the improvements made in the Westwood dub. He started out as a literal demon and grew progressively more chilled out thanks to Gohan. Scott's performance nailed both the demonic side and the zen-like master he later became - whilst still retaining some of that demonic edge.

It'd be funny if Saffron Henderson voiced Android 18 in this dub along with Kid Gohan, it'd be just like Colleen Clinkenbeard voicing both in the Funimation Kai dub.

No thanks. Ocean don't need to copy Funimation's casting choices.

It's an out of the box casting choice, but I'd like to see Jocelyne Loewen playing Goten. While she always does little girl voices, I'd like to see her attempt doing a little boy voice. Goten is supposed to sound like an innocent little kid, and I feel that his other English voices aren't satisfying.

Seems like a miscast to me. Jillian Micheals is probably the best English Goten voice we'll ever get but that's just my opinion.

I'm not sure if Cole Howard will make a good Android 17. I'd rather wish they had brought Ted Cole back.

Cole Howard will undoubtedly sound different to what we're used to but I'm keeping an open mind. 17 is a teenager after all.

[90sDBZ]

Reason for Kix UK picking up Kai is still unknown, my pet theory still remains that either they lied about not being offered Ocean, and just picked whatever Kai option they saw first, without thinking about it, or there was some clerical screw-up that ended up favouring Funimation' dub(For example, perhaps they said they only wanted HD content. Funimation's dub is apparently listed as HD, while Ocean's is not. So, that clerical error may have been why).
Still, we can argue over the Kix UK situation for years(In fact, we already have), we'll never really get anywhere with it, and ultimately what matters is the now. And right now, there really is no reason for Ocean Kai to not air, so let's just enjoy that for what it is.

Kix was never available in HD so Funimation Kai was only shown in SD.

[Robo4900]

I've honestly never thought McNeil's Piccolo voice was anything less than fantastic. It was certainly different in the Saban dub because Piccolo hadn't been fully redeemed, but I wouldn't say that made it any more nuanced than his performances in the Westwood dub, if anything it was a lack of time to give it his all (as was the case with all actors due to their direction in that dub). Much like Drummond's Vegeta I expect us to get a more refined and well rehearsed version of his Westwood performance in this dub, and that's very exciting

Indeed. Well, I've always loved McNeil's Piccolo. I'm just trying to figure out why certain people tend to be down on his work on the Westwood dub... I guess it's most likely just more of the "nah sabat was better in the part i saw sabat in and mcneil was better in the part i saw mcneil in." attitude the Americans are trying to push on everyone.

Scott's Piccolo was fine, no performance stays the same across that many episodes. I feel as though the critics either don't understand Piccolo's character growth or are just too blinded by nostalgia for the Saban voices to give any credit to the improvements made in the Westwood dub. He started out as a literal demon and grew progressively more chilled out thanks to Gohan. Scott's performance nailed both the demonic side and the zen-like master he later became - whilst still retaining some of that demonic edge.

Indeed.
McNeil played the role masterfully, he has always been a perfect choice as Piccolo, and I look forward to seeing this latest swing he was able to take at doing the role.

It'd be funny if Saffron Henderson voiced Android 18 in this dub along with Kid Gohan, it'd be just like Colleen Clinkenbeard voicing both in the Funimation Kai dub.

No thanks. Ocean don't need to copy Funimation's casting choices.

Indeed. And if the casting process and various other small things are anything to go by, the producers behind Ocean Kai have put everything under a microscope, kept what works, and thrown out what doesn't. So, hopefully the legacy of Funimation's impact on the Ocean dubs will be all but wiped away.

[8000 Saiyan]

I never said that Ocean need to copy Funimation, just saying that it'd be funny if that was the case.

Indeed. Well, I've always loved McNeil's Piccolo. I'm just trying to figure out why certain people tend to be down on his work on the Westwood dub... I guess it's most likely just more of the "nah sabat was better in the part i saw sabat in and mcneil was better in the part i saw mcneil in." attitude the Americans are trying to push on everyone.

And the fact that they think he sounds like a stereotypical cartoon villain from the 80's. Like seriously, what kinda villain from 80's cartoons sounds like his Piccolo?

I don't really see the reason for him to change his voice to sound like a happy-go-lucky and warm-fuzzy hero. Some people even think that's what Drummond should sound like as Vegeta. Because as we all know, Horikawa sounded quite heroic as Vegeta in the Cell and Buu sagas. *sarcasm*

[Robo4900]

Indeed. Well, I've always loved McNeil's Piccolo. I'm just trying to figure out why certain people tend to be down on his work on the Westwood dub... I guess it's most likely just more of the "nah sabat was better in the part i saw sabat in and mcneil was better in the part i saw mcneil in." attitude the Americans are trying to push on everyone.

And the fact that they think he sounds like a stereotypical cartoon villain from the 80's. Like seriously, what kinda villain from 80's cartoons sounds like his Piccolo?

I don't really see the reason for him to change his voice to sound like a happy-go-lucky and warm-fuzzy hero. Some people even think that's what Drummond should sound like as Vegeta. Because as we all know, Horikawa sounded quite heroic as Vegeta in the Cell and Buu sagas. *sarcasm*

I mean, remember, this is the crowed who grew up on Funimation's old, crappy Z dub. Not saying Ocean's was much better in terms of scripting, for obvious reasons, but keep in mind what the Funi dub scripts did to characters like Piccolo, Vegeta, and Goku...

I think another problem is to do with the castings Funimation used. No offense to Sabat, but his Piccolo goes all-in on the zen master side of Piccolo. The ex-demon arch-rival of Goku who'll kill you with the force of a thousand suns if you lay a finger on Gohan isn't anywhere near as represented in Sabat's portrayal(Which, because Kai skipped to Raditz, ends up making sense since Sabat is starting his portrayal just a couple of episodes before Piccolo and Gohan start buddying up). So, a lot of these people are used to an actor only really getting one side of a character, especially since these people will have only really seen McNeil as Piccolo during the early part of the series, when his peace with Goku was still somewhat begrudging, and he was only starting to redeem himself, so the perception becomes "nah mcneil plays the evil demon piccolo. we need sabat to do the goodguy piccolo.", instead of the correct assumption that as one of the best voice actors of our time, McNeil is capable of playing Piccolo's full, proper character arc believably.

And note that I'm not crapping on Sabat here; he does a fine job as Piccolo in Kai, and just in general, Sabat's pretty damn great; despite my preference for the Ocean cast, Sabat is definitely as good as Drummond as Vegeta now that Sabat's had the chance to give it a proper go in Kai and such, and with that, he gave the English-speaking world a third definitive performance as Vegeta. But, I've always thought McNeil was just a better cast as Piccolo. He just has a certain vibe he brings to the character that Sabat's never tapped into. Again, Sabat does good work, but McNeil is just an utterly perfect cast. Comparing Sabat to McNeil is like comparing Jack Nicholson to Mark Hamill; both do a really great job, both are great choices for the versions of the character they play, but it's pretty clear who the definite article is.

Still, I think the most important thing, which the Joker comparison is very apt for, is that we have more than enough different portrayals of each character in Dragon Ball to go around, and whether it's an old cast member returning to give a new swing at a role they already knocked out of the park, or a new cast member giving us an entirely fresh take, we should all be excited, even those of us who prefer Funimation's castings will, I'm sure, find a lot of value and entertainment in hearing another actor give their take on the role. As any Doctor Who fan will tell you; a fresh take on a character can often give you an entirely new perspective, and perhaps even give you a new favourite casting, even if their reign ends up very short-lived or unpopular(Lookin' at you -- Peter Kelamis, Kirby Morrow, Christopher Eccleston, Sylvester McCoy, Nicole de Boer (Spoilers for Deep Space 9), and Scott Bakula).

[8000 Saiyan]

Indeed. Well, I've always loved McNeil's Piccolo. I'm just trying to figure out why certain people tend to be down on his work on the Westwood dub... I guess it's most likely just more of the "nah sabat was better in the part i saw sabat in and mcneil was better in the part i saw mcneil in." attitude the Americans are trying to push on everyone.

And the fact that they think he sounds like a stereotypical cartoon villain from the 80's. Like seriously, what kinda villain from 80's cartoons sounds like his Piccolo?

I don't really see the reason for him to change his voice to sound like a happy-go-lucky and warm-fuzzy hero. Some people even think that's what Drummond should sound like as Vegeta. Because as we all know, Horikawa sounded quite heroic as Vegeta in the Cell and Buu sagas. *sarcasm*

I mean, remember, this is the crowed who grew up on Funimation's old, crappy Z dub. Not saying Ocean's was much better in terms of scripting, for obvious reasons, but keep in mind what the Funi dub scripts did to characters like Piccolo, Vegeta, and Goku...

I think another problem is to do with the castings Funimation used. No offense to Sabat, but his Piccolo goes all-in on the zen master side of Piccolo. The ex-demon arch-rival of Goku who'll kill you with the force of a thousand suns if you lay a finger on Gohan isn't anywhere near as represented in Sabat's portrayal(Which, because Kai skipped to Raditz, ends up making sense since Sabat is starting his portrayal just a couple of episodes before Piccolo and Gohan start buddying up). So, a lot of these people are used to an actor only really getting one side of a character, especially since these people will have only really seen McNeil as Piccolo during the early part of the series, when his peace with Goku was still somewhat begrudging, and he was only starting to redeem himself, so the perception becomes "nah mcneil plays the evil demon piccolo. we need sabat to do the goodguy piccolo.", instead of the correct assumption that as one of the best voice actors of our time, McNeil is capable of playing Piccolo's full, proper character arc believably.

And note that I'm not crapping on Sabat here; he does a fine job as Piccolo in Kai, and just in general, Sabat's pretty damn great; despite my preference for the Ocean cast, Sabat is definitely as good as Drummond as Vegeta now that Sabat's had the chance to give it a proper go in Kai and such, and with that, he gave the English-speaking world a third definitive performance as Vegeta. But, I've always thought McNeil was just a better cast as Piccolo. He just has a certain vibe he brings to the character that Sabat's never tapped into. Again, Sabat does good work, but McNeil is just an utterly perfect cast. Comparing Sabat to McNeil is like comparing Jack Nicholson to Mark Hamill; both do a really great job, both are great choices for the versions of the character they play, but it's pretty clear who the definite article is.

Still, I think the most important thing, which the Joker comparison is very apt for, is that we have more than enough different portrayals of each character in Dragon Ball to go around, and whether it's an old cast member returning to give a new swing at a role they already knocked out of the park, or a new cast member giving us an entirely fresh take, we should all be excited, even those of us who prefer Funimation's castings will, I'm sure, find a lot of value and entertainment in hearing another actor give their take on the role. As any Doctor Who fan will tell you; a fresh take on a character can often give you an entirely new perspective, and perhaps even give you a new favourite casting, even if their reign ends up very short-lived or unpopular(Lookin' at you -- Peter Kelamis, Kirby Morrow, Christopher Eccleston, Sylvester McCoy, Nicole de Boer (Spoilers for Deep Space 9), and Scott Bakula).

I don't know if I would say his Vegeta is as good as Drummond's. His screams aren't that good. In all honesty, I prefer him as Piccolo.

I think he's a better VA when he's not forcing his voice like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LlHXRZxt5Q

Seriously, he sounds utterly ridiculous while the other VA's sound much more natural.

[WittyUsername]

The Westwood dub in general isn’t exactly known to be a high point for the Ocean voice cast. A lot of it was a rush job. I will say this, though, they did handle Killa significantly better than FUNimation did.

[Super Sayian Prime]

Stumbled upon something interesting and somewhat relevant to the conversation so I thought I would share.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

It really surprises me that YTV actively trashed their Dragon Ball archives, with the exception of a few, which would explain they only aired one episode of Z during Retro Week back in 2008. It's a wonder they retained their old tapes of Rocko's Modern Life, but not Dragon Ball. Perhaps because there's a difference between their ongoing relationship with Nickelodeon and their fizzled relationship with Ocean.

I'm not sure how much validity there is to them taking the show off the air follow the Piccolo Jr. Saga, as one, there was very little sexual content during that part of the series, two, they aired the entire series more than once, and lastly, YTV didn't edit the show, Blue Water Studios did if I'm not mistaken.

In any event, you get to hear from the horse's mouth a little bit as to why they won't air Kai, though we pretty much knew.

I'd really question the legitimacy of the information in that comment. The only thing I would expect to likely be true is that Corus no longer has their DB/Z/GT broadcast tapes. That would make sense. It's been 10 years (almost to the day) since they last ran any Dragon Ball anime on YTV and their broadcast rights have long expired. Corus also moved offices in 2011. I think it's a guarantee they did a major cleanup of their archives and dumped stuff they had no use for. Corus is Nickelodeon's master partner in Canada. They have long-term multi-platform distribution rights for all of Nick's productions in this country. Holding onto Rocko makes sense. Dragon Ball? Not so much.

The comment regarding content issues is very out of sync with what we know. As you said, YTV aired the three TV shows in their entirety. During that time, not a single complaint was lodged with the Canadian Broadcast Standards Council regarding YTV's run of Dragon Ball material. YTV also ran the shows in primetime and with PG ratings. If they had issues with the content, they could've easily run them later in the night or with a 14+ tag. Lastly, as you said, YTV didn't edit anything on Dragon Ball themselves. In fact, at the time they were incapable of doing anything more than simply cutting the offending sequences out entirely. This was demonstrated during Bionix, where shows like Gundam SEED and Ghost in the Shell: SAC would have clumsy splices to censor nudity rather than elaborate paint overs.

[Cure Dragon 255]

All I have to say is THANK GOD someone recorded all of the Pretty Cure dub or it would have been lost forever lol.

[8000 Saiyan]

All I have to say is THANK GOD someone recorded all of the Pretty Cure dub or it would have been lost forever lol.

Blue Water dubbed that, didn't they?

I know that the majority of the anime community thinks they have no talent, but I've heard great things about their recent work on Kiznaiver. It seems like that dub proved to some of them that they could act.

[Arian]

Stumbled upon something interesting and somewhat relevant to the conversation so I thought I would share.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

It really surprises me that YTV actively trashed their Dragon Ball archives, with the exception of a few, which would explain they only aired one episode of Z during Retro Week back in 2008. It's a wonder they retained their old tapes of Rocko's Modern Life, but not Dragon Ball. Perhaps because there's a difference between their ongoing relationship with Nickelodeon and their fizzled relationship with Ocean.

I'm not sure how much validity there is to them taking the show off the air follow the Piccolo Jr. Saga, as one, there was very little sexual content during that part of the series, two, they aired the entire series more than once, and lastly, YTV didn't edit the show, Blue Water Studios did if I'm not mistaken.

In any event, you get to hear from the horse's mouth a little bit as to why they won't air Kai, though we pretty much knew.

I'd really question the legitimacy of the information in that comment. The only thing I would expect to likely be true is that Corus no longer has their DB/Z/GT broadcast tapes. That would make sense. It's been 10 years (almost to the day) since they last ran any Dragon Ball anime on YTV and their broadcast rights have long expired. Corus also moved offices in 2011. I think it's a guarantee they did a major cleanup of their archives and dumped stuff they had no use for. Corus is Nickelodeon's master partner in Canada. They have long-term multi-platform distribution rights for all of Nick's productions in this country. Holding onto Rocko makes sense. Dragon Ball? Not so much.

The comment regarding content issues is very out of sync with what we know. As you said, YTV aired the three TV shows in their entirety. During that time, not a single complaint was lodged with the Canadian Broadcast Standards Council regarding YTV's run of Dragon Ball material. YTV also ran the shows in primetime and with PG ratings. If they had issues with the content, they could've easily run them later in the night or with a 14+ tag. Lastly, as you said, YTV didn't edit anything on Dragon Ball themselves. In fact, at the time they were incapable of doing anything more than simply cutting the offending sequences out entirely. This was demonstrated during Bionix, where shows like Gundam SEED and Ghost in the Shell: SAC would have clumsy splices to censor nudity rather than elaborate paint overs.

Is it possible that these opinions/information from these YTV employees are explained in hindsight? Like, although it's poorly explained by Iman here, perhaps after all of the Dragon Ball series finished airing they thought about it and decided not to air anymore Dragon Ball or anime altogether.

[OmegaRockman]

All I have to say is THANK GOD someone recorded all of the Pretty Cure dub or it would have been lost forever lol.

Blue Water dubbed that, didn't they?

I know that the majority of the anime community thinks they have no talent, but I've heard great things about their recent work on Kiznaiver. It seems like that dub proved to some of them that they could act.

I also have to say that Blue Water's Mega Man X work is the best ANY Mega Man material has sounded in English. I know that's a low bar considering Mega Man's localization history, but the Blue Water guys still did legitimately good work on the games they did and the Day of Sigma OVA.

[Super Sayian Prime]

All I have to say is THANK GOD someone recorded all of the Pretty Cure dub or it would have been lost forever lol.

Blue Water dubbed that, didn't they?

I know that the majority of the anime community thinks they have no talent, but I've heard great things about their recent work on Kiznaiver. It seems like that dub proved to some of them that they could act.

A lot of the shows people hold against Blue Water are 10-15 years old at this point. Through loads more experience and better direction, the Alberta voice pool has improved dramatically. The thing is, first impressions matter and like the mothership, Blue Water has rarely worked on newer shows anime fans would care about.

Is it possible that these opinions/information from these YTV employees are explained in hindsight? Like, although it's poorly explained by Iman here, perhaps after all of the Dragon Ball series finished airing they thought about it and decided not to air anymore Dragon Ball or anime altogether.

Even then, Bionix petered out in 2010 and YTV kept action shows on until 2014. That included Power Rangers, a property which had actually received two CBSC complaints in the past over violence. YTV's 2014 removal of anime/action was more likely an attempt to consolidate boys programming onto Teletoon rather than some attempt to censor violence.