Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

I've come across some interesting notes on another forum in regards to Super power scaling, from a user called Gojirason (he was actually here for a while, though quickly left after some unsuccessful attempts to convince everyone Pure Buu was super strong). He points out that performance is non-indicative of results in Toei fighting unless the fight is conclusive, and that this happens pretty consistently, oddly enough. And also makes some interesting observations about how the anime's power scaling changed in comparison to the manga by comparing their release schedules. I'll copy-paste some:

It's become pretty obvious to me that non-conclusive fights don't actually seem to mean anything in Toei's productions. They never have. No matter who is fighting, no matter how wide the gap is or should be, if you put two people together and have them fight, two or three things are going to happen:

1: They're going to have an actual fight
2: There's going to be some kind of dramatic energy clash where both sides scream and work like they're actually trying
3: People are going to stand around talking about it for far longer than any of their individual interjections should last for.

To be perfectly blunt, even when it's the only thing you actually have, taking any given combat performance as an actual indicator of power in the Super anime is a fool's errand. I can no more trust that Vegetto and Zamasu should actually be having a good fight than Zamasu giving Blue Goku a hard time, and SS1/2 Trunks getting the better of Rose Goku Black and easily beating Zamasu. When it had already been well established that Zamasu was no more than on par with SS2 Goku, and that Trunks couldn't even handle base-form Goku Black or SS3 Goku, who wiped him out in one hit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrhpYikwimw

So based on this, none of which is played anything but straight and serious, we'd have:

SS3 Goku >>> SS1/2 Trunks >= SSR Black >= SSGSS Goku = Zamasu = SS2 Goku = SS2 Trunks < Goku Black
SS3 >>> SSGSS
Goku Black > SSR Goku Black

Later on, SSGSS Goku overpowers Merged Zamasu, and SSGSS Goku was around Rose Black, and Rose Black was fighting on par with SS Trunks, and SS Trunks couldn't fight Base Black, and was weaker than SS3 Goku...

What about when Gohan is fighting against SS2 Goku, asks Goku not to hold back and then somehow keeps up with SSGSS? Or Krillin forcing Goku to go SS, when SS3 Gotenks couldn't even scratch Copy-Vegeta, whereas Base Goku was Copy-Vegeta's equal?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgpqIXqV1oo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ddXIPgrT4U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAibmdtd3-g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUwtolPaOk0

Combat performances mean nothing in the Super Anime. This isn't even the most egregious example, and it's definitely not an isolated event.

At the time, Goku and Vegeta had absorbed Super Saiyan God. They had its power or similar normally. That doesn’t seem to be true anymore. Now Super Saiyan God is an actual transformation, and one stronger than SS3 no less. This is important because during Battle of Gods, Goku’s Super Saiyan was roughly on par with his Super Saiyan God form, or even stronger.

But if SSG > SS3 > SS >= SSG
Then obviously something is different now than it was earlier on. Or else, it was simply misunderstood. This also goes for at the very least at the time word of god comparisons between SSG Goku and Beerus’s full power.

Here’s the thing, Toei constructed the Superhuman Water episodes from nothing, and has a notoriously terrible history with power scaling in filler. It is obvious filler and has nothing to do with Toriyama’s outlines. So the results that occur within (like Base Goku and Vegeta being worlds above SS3 Gotenks) should be taken with a grain of salt. They’re a result of Toei’s (admittedly understandable) understanding of the situation as of Battle of Gods and onward.

But the other thing Toei has seemingly done is take retroactive cues from the manga—or when the manga was ahead, largely just copy it. And while Toyotaro’s interpretation is technically questionable, it doesn’t seem he’s likely to be including much beyond Toriyama’s guidelines.

In the manga, Goku never absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God and fought Beerus without it in the first place. So when the Universe 6v7 Tournament happened in the manga, which at the Time was ahead of the anime... Goku and Vegeta were basically Buu Saga level at base. Hence the competition going the way it did, and probably the reason for keeping Buu out of it. When the manga had Goku turn SSG during the Universe 6 Tournament, the Anime had him doing it doing the Tournament of Power despite never even hinting that he even could before.

If you examine the apparent changes in the anime and dates at which those changes occurred with respect to the release of certain manga chapters, there’s an obvious trend.

Once the anime caught up to the manga, the relationship between Goku and Vegeta and people like Cabbe and Frost went unchanged. Does that mean that Cabbe and Frost were insanely strong in the anime? It stretched suspension of disbelief to be honest.

Speaking of “keeping Buu out of it”... this has been a continuous trend throughout all of Super and a bit before.

During Revival of F, Frieza speaks of how he was warned away from Buu in the same breath as Beerus, then shortly afterwards, Freeza projects his power level will hit 1,000,000 (presumably in his first form). Buu is conveniently away from the conflict (which Krillin notes wouldn't be an issue if he were present, despite sensing at least Freeza's first form) while characters like Piccolo are confusingly struggling with Zarbon-level opponents—an obvious sign of power retconning or otherwise diminishing if there ever was one.

Then for the Universe 6 Tournament, Buu was conveniently kept out of it by a written test. Nobody acts as though Buu, a character who never trains, would have been absolutely useless, despite Base Vegeta and Goku not being enough for some opponents. On the contrary, when Buu is finally allowed to act for one exhibition match, Buu was many times more powerful than one of the Trio de Dangers, who as a whole performed fairly well against people who, if the Superhuman Water Arc was accurate, are basically Super Saiyan God level. That’s insane.

Then there’s things like Gohan getting back to his power during the Buu Arc... and seemingly being as strong as a SSG(SS?)? Huh? But back then, Evil Buu absorbing his peer Gotenks made him stronger than Gohan?

So in the course of one fucking day, Gohan who was practically weaker than ever managed to hit his old point, then surpass it hundreds or thousands of times over?? To say nothing of Buu training for about the same amount of time and actually beating base Goku very easily [with no noted change to his power, just speed]. So did he get thousands of times stronger in one day too??? Even C-17 had like 10 years of off-screen excuses.

Way to invalidate the entire fucking series and all the training Gohan has ever done, including all the complaining about him not training. What the actual fuck? Then there’s the whole situation with Trunks being weaker than Dabura, yet apparently being stronger than Z Vegetto if you go by Goku’s SS2 being based on his base power after SSG in BoG, or the Superhuman Water Arc.

Or, Goku wasn’t actually that strong in Base.

It would seem obvious to me that, realizing both the limitations on story telling, and recognizing what the ultimate end point had to be, they probably dialed themselves back so they could still have enemies from other universes, and the status quo with Beerus could be maintained.

Toei also had Piccolo struggle with a guy on Dodoria/Zarbon level in recent memory before that. In current recent memory they’ve done things like make Roshi stronger than Tien, or Krillin forcing Goku to go SSJ, or have Kale beat the shit out of Blue, drop a statement that she’s gotten stronger, and lose decisively 2v1 against Red. Or having Caulifla simultaneously be Goku’s peer, but also unable to overwhelm, or even touch his base form as a Super Saiyan. Or having Base Goku outperform full-power Blue Vegeta against Hit.

There’s two ways of looking at this:
1) it’s valid, but the possibility of Gotenks becoming massively weaker ala Gohan and Piccolo can’t be dismissed out of hand.

2) it’s not valid. It’s filler nonsense in the same way that filler nonsense has been a thing for literally decades.

Even if it is valid, it’s seriously unclear if the “Saiyan Beyond God” scaling or story element actually stuck around and wasn’t soft retconned. Ever since the manga did away with it the anime has been treating Goku and Vegeta totally differently.

There’s a very real tendency and problem with the Dragonball discussion community to assume that nobody ever gets weaker, and thus it’s just rampant and constant upward escalation. It’s understandable to an extent, but if you’re not going to take the bizarre low-ends seriously, you shouldn’t take the high-end stuff seriously either.

Why would Gohan be so much stronger now than he was before? Why would the universe 6 Saiyans be so much stronger than normal? If Goku’s Base power has anything to do with his Super Saiyan God power when he fought Beerus, why is he still transforming into a SSJ God, and why is it still notably stronger than his normal Super Saiyan forms?

(Something else that people seem to forget all the time is that when Goku fought Beerus, just before becoming a god, he received the “all the saiyans give Goku their power” boost that Toei has been using to justify him fighting people like Broly and Syn Shenron for years. If God is dependent on the user’s power, then should it not be noted that Goku was much stronger than usual? In a way that has a narrative history of resulting in WAY more than the sum of its parts? God was clearly temporary, one would imagine this was as well. After all Vegeta has to catch up, and they weren’t talking like Goku was lightyears ahead again).

[Marlowe89]

40 tons was the max Goku could support in mid air, not that he couldn't lift it

Toriyama purposely drew that panel to show that Goku couldn't handle 40 tons, man. There were literally movement lines drawn from his entire body to demonstrate those weights dragging him towards the ground. There are no external factors at play here. If there were, they would have been clearly noted in a story that prides itself on its simplicity and being easy to understand.

And looking back at my translation, Beerus clearly says that Magetta's race weighs at least 1,000 tons, not that it was Magetta's exact weight.

[PFM18]

Even if you don’t think Goku and Vegetas base forms could solo z, it’s ludacris to say u6 arc base Vegeta < Buu arc base Goku. 4-5 years of training post Buu + training with Whis + 3 years in Rosat and you guys think base Vegeta is weaker than Buu Goku from Buu arc.

Dont say "you guys" because it is only one person

[Bergamo]

I just realized that whenever people talk about the scaling in the manga version of the FT arc, they almost always refer to Trunks as FPSS2 yet they refer to Vegeta as SS2. Why is this? They are both doing the same thing?

[dragon boss z]

This is from the manga discussion thread, I brought it here because it was off topic there.
[spoiler]

Yes... beforr Namek, after Namek everyone appears to be aware of Freeza's final form, doesn't seem like a secret anymore.

Who? The only one who I think mentioned Frieza's final form after namek is Sorbet, the leader of the entire Frieza force.

How can you be so confidently sure though? I think Namekians are aware of basic math and simple numbers.

The Namekians don't even use power levels to measure strength.

There is nothing clear about it, that's just your personal opinion, period. If they were weaker than Freeza it would have been pointed out which it wasn't, therefore, Tarble is not wrong. It needs to be contradicted first for it to be wrong.

Being as strong as Frieza's first form is not being weaker than Frieza. In RoF Frieza said after 4 months of training he thought he could reach a power level of 1.3 million. I believe Frieza was talking about his first form (as it is the only thing that makes sense and the number is most likely based off of the 530,00 line in the F song), and I do think Frieza underestimated himself heavily, but the line was not delivered as a joke and I doubt Abo and Cado were stronger than Frieza's estimated power after 4 months.

And Tarble said Thode two were as strong as Freeza which Goku did not disagree with. We have two conflicting statements here, which one is correct?

They aren't conflicting, anything between a power level of 530,000 and 120,000,000 is "as strong as Frieza". Base Goku not being able to beat Frieza just means he can't beat Frieza, so it means he would lose to Frieza somewhere between "530,000 and 120,000,000". However we know base Goku is at least 3,000,000 so his base form would be somewhere between 3,000,000 and 120,000,000.
The fact that in the 7 year time gap between the cell and buu saga Goku and Vegeta only got a few times stronger max, due to the fact their ssj form was still weaker than ssj2 kid Gohan, means that it is highly unlikely he got 50x stronger overall in just his base.

The same movie that references the Tarble special and I thought we were counting the anime because it might be filler so why are you using it, yet I can't use the same anime that proves base Saiyans > Freeza (Namek era)?

And like I said the Tarble special never proves Abo and Cado are as strong as full power Frieza, and I never said the anime should be taken at face value alone. I'm saying if the line comes up in the movie, some people disregard it, but then the line comes back in the anime even stronger to try to put doubts to rest, I think the message is clear. In the manga version Beerus doesn't even say anything about Goku being able to beat Frieza until he goes ssj2. It's a similar line to the anime as well, "Well now I understand just how you managed to defeat Frieza. But it ends there, I see nothing more."

If you're going to write off the anime then don't use it support your own claims, only fair right?

I'm saying take the anime with a grain of salt as a lot of it seems like nonsensical filler. However Toriyama is involved and some plot points come from him. If a line is in the movie, anime, and manga, there is a high chance it came from Toriyama himself. Also if we go by what the anime said Tagoma is above the Ginyu force. He was never stated stronger than Frieza and he only beat a base Gohan and Piccolo who had trouble with Frieza soldiers Roshi could beat. Piccolo and Gohan also went down to the same attacks that took down skinny Roshi and Krillin, and neither of them died from the hit or even took serious damage.

Which is the exact same line unchanged, not from multiple sources like you claimed earlier, I forgot to mention in the anime and manga Beerus is completely unaware how strong Goku is until after he sees him in action so why is word held as law from a suppressed Goku that didn't even fight?

Which moment are you talking about? Beerus didn't know about Goku's further forms, bot I don't remember him being caught off guard by him after transforming. Whis was able to tell ssj3 Goku's strength right when he went into it as well.

That's false, Goku had zero issues with Yakon.

I guess. He was almost hit, but that could have been Goku just being cocky. I do think base Goku could have beaten Yakon on an even playing field.

18 was not dominating the kids, not even close, why are you ignoring the kids stated 18 used to be stronger than their SSJ fathers, yet start off the fight as base and make zero mention of 18 holding back?

Read the chapter again. It was a few panels of 18 casually beating them and Goten says they have no chance of winning lets go ssj.
Also to be clear I do think base Goku would win with kaioken easily and with all of his techniques he does have a chance of winning based off that. But in just flat out raw power, 100% Frieza should hold the edge.[/spoiler]

Other than Future Trunks verbally mentioning he increased the boost of his SS2, and it was addressed, SS2 Future Trunks = SS3 Goku. SS2 Vegeta > SS(2?) Black > SS2 Future Trunks = SS3 Goku > base Goku = base Vegeta.

It may have been regular ssj2 Trunks fighting base Black, and powered up ssj2 Trunks was weaker than ssj3 Goku, and Goku may not have been at max power like he wasn't at max power against fat Buu. If Vegeta found a way to increase his ssj2 like Trunks did, (possibly the rage boost against Beerus let him learn from the experience like how Goku learned from SSG in the anime) then I could see his ssj2 being above ssj3 Goku.

Its a power comparison, someone made a false comparison and was corrected, yet you act like the characters wouldn't or haven't done this before.

It depends on the situation. Abo and Cado being in the realm of Frieza doesn't need to be corrected. Goku could sense how strong they were and he knew how strong Frieza was throughout his time on Namek.

Piccolo wasn't nerfed, more baseless speculation and DBS is a
collaborated effort, one where Toriyana hinself says he doesn't mind where others take liberities with his story. Who are you, some random poster on the internet, to decide whay counts and doesn't in DB, you have no official say or authority to make such calls in the first place.

Piccolo was stopped by Frieza fodder and taken out by moves that skinny Roshi survived. Sounds nerfed to me. And I'm not saying what does and doesn't count, if you want to go by anime continuity then that's fine, but I could also say Piccolo got weaker. I mean Tagoma getting so strong pretty much breaks the continuity as it means he had more growth than a ssj training for multiple years in the ROSAT. A zarbon level soldier getting beaten up for a few months reaching close to perfect Cell tier basically means his potential craps all over the legendary ssj transformation and Piccolo fused with two other Namekians, lol. Even Nail by himself had a higher base power level than Zarbon, Tagoma reaching that level of strength so quickly makes no sense no matter how you look at it. Now if it was mentioned his race actually has some crazy ability like saiyans that multiplies their power after near death that would be one thing, but nothing like that was mentioned.

Not quite, we know at least SSJ for Goku is above a KKx20 boost and Goku and Vegeta are shown equal in all of their (Minus SS2) forms consistently in the DBS manga so doing simple deduction U6 and Zamasu arc base and SS Goku and Vegeta are more or less the same as their Buu Saga selves, something I've been saying this entire time

That is not backed up by your weight argument at all. 23rd budokai flippled giant Piccolo in the air. That feat is already in the dozens of tons range. So is buu saga and dbs base Goku a similar level of power to 23rd budokai Goku? no.

You realize you can't prove anything right? You're just stubbornly going "Nuh Uh" at this point to which I have nothing more to say to you.

I did give evidence, you just ignore it. Saying "his power is amazing" means it was amazing compared to his final form. 1.5x stronger is not amazingly stronger.

Prove it, also, Goku was fighting the same in base as he was in SSG when he lost it, yet, when he went SS there was zero change in performance so I disagree with your opinion there.

Ok, so if you think going ssj and ssj3 no longer makes base Goku stronger, but that is contradicted later in the series as the power ups clearly give him boosts again.

Freeza simply stated Caulifla was stronger than SS Goku on Namek, not extra adjectives like much/far stronger.

Either way, he only said that after she went ssj.

Not with its power scaling it doesn't,

The only real problem is final form Frieza being weaker than base Goku, but stronger than Piccolo and ssj Gohan by a large degree. If we go by the manga I would think Goku would need ssj to do what he did against Frieza, but that could be explained by Frieza not being at full power yet, or Goku holding back in the manga during the U6 tournament, which is likely considering when assault form Frost hit him Goku actually wasn't hurt and said that he finally felt something. Also as kid Goku said, his tournament strength is different from his killing strength or however he said it.

also RoF film doesn't exist in some vacuum separate from BoGs film either so...

I didn't say didn't. RoF is definitely the sequel to BoG, I'm saying that as of now it is the best thing that fits into the manga continuity for the RoF arc. Like if someone wanted to just read the manga but get the complete story as of now the RoF movie seems to be the best option to fill that gap.

[TheSaiyanGod]

According to the director's comments from DBS EP 131, Vegeta SSBE is an anime original and in terms of strength, it's the same as Goku's SSB KK, but that does not make much sense.

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1028025720751017984

In EP 129, Vegeta in his speech to Vermouth recalls the times when the Saiyans surpass their limits in the tournament (and during that flashback, the moment when Vegeta overtakes Toppo is shown). That is, at that moment, he overcame his limits, was stronger than before, which by logic would make him more powerful than Goku SSB KK (considering that before that they were equal).

[Bullza]

What exactly could be evidence to say that there wasn't a retcon and Base Goku and Vegeta kept their super strong Base forms starting from the Future Trunks saga?

Things like Goku stopping Piccolo's big attack and him hitting Frieza are questionable. I can't think of anything significant off the top of my head.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

There's no evidence that SSBE Vegeta and SSB Kaioken Goku were equal prior to Vegeta's boost against Toppo. If SSBE Vegeta and SSB Kaioken Goku are equals then that means that Vegeta wasn't as strong as Goku prior to his boost.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

There's no evidence that SSBE Vegeta and SSB Kaioken Goku were equal prior to Vegeta's boost against Toppo. If SSBE Vegeta and SSB Kaioken Goku are equals then that means that Vegeta wasn't as strong as Goku prior to his boost.

I generally take the last few moments of Vegeta's fight with Toppo not being an "actual" power boost, more of an adrenaline boost that allows him to land sharper and more heavy blows to overcome Toppo's Energy of Destruction; he ultimately still requires a limit-breaking Final Explosion to overcome Toppo's Hakai technique and merely knock the candidate Hakaishin out.

Once this moment was over, Vegeta's body couldn't exert as much effort anymore due to not having the immediate adrenaline from confronting Toppo's philosophy, and his power exertion returned to normal "SSB KK" levels.

[Jesus-is Lord]

the whole ssj god got absorbed into whereever parts of his body has been retconned because the whole point of that was so goku didn't need to use his regular ssj forms anymore, and the power of ssj god didn't just rest into his ssj form. It rested into HIMSELF, he was just in ssj when using that "power". If he powered into base it would have been hypotheically the same thing

Well, in a way, you are right here. But within the context of what you are discussing, you are mistaken. Now, the concept of a "Saiyan Beyond God" was retconned from the movies. The movie established that SSG, and SSJ were not going to be used because Goku could use God Ki in his base and was stronger than the SSG form that rendered the other forms irrelevant. Now, the premise of a "Saiyan Beyond God" worked for a movie but not in the scope of an entire new series because they can't just have two forms "Saiyan Beyond God" and "SSGSS" like they did in the movie. In the anime, everybody can sense what is clearly Goku's Base, unlike the movies, and King Kai and the narrator state that he had surpassed SSG only upon going SSB. So that shows that there is no longer a base form with God Ki that is beyond SSG.

The emphasis in the BoG movie was that Goku simply "made that power his own" through experiencing that level of power. Then, Vegeta trained with Whis for 6 months, and he became as strong or stronger than Goku who got the boost that made his SSJ>=SSG. Goku states that his ki was unrecognizable from what it was on Earth, which obviously, means that the boost was monumentally large. But this shows that with Vegeta he didn't have a form that changed how his other forms functioned adn Goku and Vegeta's forms functioned the same way. Therefore, it was never implied that there was anything inhibiting them from using SSJ/SSG and so DBS did not retcon itself. Goku/Vegeta simply had a large power boost and that is essentially it. This is reinforced throughout the series as I already explained.

If ssj god was Truly stronger then ssj3 vegetto, then ssj god goku should have been stronger then BASE kefla by a lot. Point is fusion is actaully stronger then ssj god, as proved by super itself. And fights > goku GUESS WORK.

The problem is you are jumping to conclusions and retroactively applying something that "contradicts" what has already been established and stated. SSG Goku literally said that he didn't know that level of power could even exist. He had already experienced SSJ Vegetto so obviously this is on a completely different level. You can't just retroactively apply your preconceived notions to something 100 episodes prior that contradicts multiple direct statements.

The more reasonable explanation, which is intuitive, is that after Goku made the power of SSG "his own", and because this is a version of the form that he attained without the ritual, does not have the multiplier as when he achieved it through the ritual. Which makes sense, because it would have been insane, even for the power creep within this series, for Goku to retain that level of power and then gain the same astronomical boost that he acheved from the ritual.

So no, his ssj form isn't ssj god tier. And if it was so, that's saying ssj2 trunks somehow became stronger then ssj god, and therefore stronger then ssj3 vegito in just a decade of training? hahahahah

There's no reason to believe Trunks couldn't have achieved that level of power. Nothing implies otherwise.

You seem to come to similarly strange conclusions and have similarly rude mannerisms as the guy that called himself "4." Would this happen to be the same person?

I have to agree with Jesus-is Lord. I can't wrap my head around how Cabba, a Saiyan kid who can't even turn SSJ, is supposed to be as strong as SSJ Vegetto

Considering that immediately following the arc in which Cabba was introduced, Goku was established to be able to entertain Beerus in his Base and dominate SSJ3 Gotenks in his Base, that aligns with somebody being on par with his Base being SSJ Vegetto level. This corroborates with what was established in the first two arcs where Goku/Vegeta attained an astronomically large power boost. At an absolute bare minimum, Cabba is leaps and bounds above SSJ3 Gotenks as was shown with Base Goku/Vegeta immediately after fighting Cabba and being on par.

That's why I think they might've retconned Saiyan Beyond God and that Goku and Vegeta reverted back to their regular pre-BoG base forms.

Saiyan Beyond God was retconned from the movies. What was portrayed in DBS is that they achieved a massive power boost, but unlike "Saiyan Beyond God", didn't change how their transformations functioned in which SSJ and SSG were rendered obsolete.

This would be insane! What the hell kind of training was Cabba doing that allowed him to outperform Goku and Vegeta combined? Why were Goku and Vegeta wasting so much time trying to master and unlock new transformations when they could've gotten thousands or possibly millions of times stronger by just training in base like Cabba did?

Goku and Vegeta couldn't have gotten thousands or millions of times stronger to reach Cabba's level during the previous arcs because they are simply not Cabba. Universe 6 Saiyans were stated to have evolved differently and have different biology than the Universe 7 Saiyans.

Out of Universe, this is simply an example of power creep that has been happening constantly throughout the entire series.

Megumi Ishitani (director) said that on twitter in response to a question from a fan. Also as far as SSBE rivaling Omen, I think people meant the first time or maybe second time in terms of raw power. Remember goku got massively stronger during the ToP and Evolution was on par with Blue KKx20 goku after he had broken his limits twice before and consistently gotten stronger by fighting as seen by Blue Goku doing better against a powered up jiren in episode 123 compared to kkx20 goku vs jiren in the special

Vegeta implied Jiren was using less strength than he did against Goku the first time.

Correct. A lot of people miss this line of dialogue for some reason.

Except goku never said that as a ssj god. He at best said that in base form with absloutley know expirence of ssj god, therefore goku has no idea if it's stronger then fusion other then guess work. While toei itself OBJETVILY showed how fusion >>ssj god. That's IT. No questions asked, no headcanon can save you. Also, since Bog takes place only a year after Buu, we can assume that base vegito is far stronger then ssj god as well.

ssj2 trunks somehow became stronger then ssj god, and therefore stronger then ssj3 vegito in just a decade of training? hahahahah

There's no reason to believe Trunks couldn't have achieved that level of power. Nothing implies otherwise.
Yikes bro, yikes. There's not even worth the time to adress such a statement.

Goku saying have ki that's unreconnigzable does not have to mean his KI has grown larger. You just said it did, and went off with that flawed and bias interprtations. It could mean that he's refined his Ki. Simple, but all of that was build-up for RoF in terms sayain beyond god which isnt a base with god ki, but base that utilizes the power of ssj god. That has been retconned, all of that base or ssj being ssj god tier is retconned, hence with the anime bringing back ssj god then vegeta. The point of all that was so ssj god wouldn't need to return anymore. All of that has been retconned. You don't stack ssj god onto a ssj god equivalent power-up. That was never ever shown in the show, but only speculated upon some factions of the fanbase who usually want to make super character OP instead of observing what the show is doing.

You seem to come to similarly strange conclusions and have similarly rude mannerisms as the guy that called himself "4." Would this happen to be the same person?

...

4? The name looks familiar

[ZombieVito]

There's no evidence that SSBE Vegeta and SSB Kaioken Goku were equal prior to Vegeta's boost against Toppo. If SSBE Vegeta and SSB Kaioken Goku are equals then that means that Vegeta wasn't as strong as Goku prior to his boost.

We know Vegeta wasn't as strong as Goku with only them using Blue.

Now the only question is: What version of Kaioken did Goku used in E123. He fought Jiren way better than E109 so he should be using a higher form than x20.

[Jesus-is Lord]

There's no evidence that SSBE Vegeta and SSB Kaioken Goku were equal prior to Vegeta's boost against Toppo. If SSBE Vegeta and SSB Kaioken Goku are equals then that means that Vegeta wasn't as strong as Goku prior to his boost.

We know Vegeta wasn't as strong as Goku with only them using Blue.

Now the only question is: What version of Kaioken did Goku used in E123. He fought Jiren way better than E109 so he should be using a higher form than x20.

Goku in regular blue fought jiren better then he did with Kaioken. That really dosen't say much...I dont understand some people can just like compartmentalize the atrcious power scailing of dbs, and only just use it to wank it more. SSJ blue vegeta fought way better against a supposed "stronger" jiren.

[RandomGuy96]

What exactly could be evidence to say that there wasn't a retcon and Base Goku and Vegeta kept their super strong Base forms starting from the Future Trunks saga?

Things like Goku stopping Piccolo's big attack and him hitting Frieza are questionable. I can't think of anything significant off the top of my head.

Nothing that you couldn't also use as proof that base Goku was stronger than Super Vegetto in Z. People have to understand that, unless the scene is referencing something directly from the manga, or the fight is conclusive, performance in Toei productions are often nonindicative of actual strength. It doesn't work like the manga, anyone can fight anyone in Toei productions. Krillin can knock the wind out of Cell. Kid Gohan can knock around 100% Freeza, a with no power-up since the last time 2nd form Freeza easily beat him up. Base Vegeta can beat up SS3 Gotenks in Buu's head. Tenshinhan can hold his own against a Cell Junior.

[TheSaiyanGod]

There's no evidence that SSBE Vegeta and SSB Kaioken Goku were equal prior to Vegeta's boost against Toppo. If SSBE Vegeta and SSB Kaioken Goku are equals then that means that Vegeta wasn't as strong as Goku prior to his boost.

The proof is the fight against Jiren in EP 123, 124 and 125. At no time Goku took advantage over Vegeta or managed to hit more blows in Jiren, both fought exactly in the same rhythm and level.

With Zamasu and Black, it was clear that Zamasu was weaker and had more difficulty facing the Saiyans.

There's no evidence that SSBE Vegeta and SSB Kaioken Goku were equal prior to Vegeta's boost against Toppo. If SSBE Vegeta and SSB Kaioken Goku are equals then that means that Vegeta wasn't as strong as Goku prior to his boost.

We know Vegeta wasn't as strong as Goku with only them using Blue.

Now the only question is: What version of Kaioken did Goku used in E123. He fought Jiren way better than E109 so he should be using a higher form than x20.

Why would Vegeta be weaker than Goku in SSB?

[Kaiosama]

About time they cleared this up. This was a simple way for them to bring Vegeta up to Goku with Kaioken, However it's pretty sad that his limit breaking power can only equal Full Power Goku before UI. Shows how much more of a ceiling Goku has over Vegeta in terms of talent and power. I highly doubt we'll ever see this form again since it tanked.

[ZombieVito]

Why would Vegeta be weaker than Goku in SSB?

It was confirmed in a preview.

Goku and Freeza are tied for #1 spot of U7.

[PFM18]

Except goku never said that as a ssj god.

Uhh yeah he did? You appear to be mistaken as far as when this was said. Goku said it immediately upon turning SSG from the ritual. Goku saiad that fusion wouldn't be enough, and that he didn't know that level of power could even exist. It is very obvious that he was stronger during this time than anything that could have or ever was produced by Vegetto. You came up with quite the convoluted explanation to conclude otherwise, but it isn't necessary because we have clear statements.

sj2 trunks somehow became stronger then ssj god, and therefore stronger then ssj3 vegito in just a decade of training? hahahahah

There's no reason to believe Trunks couldn't have achieved that level of power. Nothing implies otherwise.

I am not saying what "could" or "couldn't" be the case based on some subjective preconceived notions about how this power could be achieved. Clearly he did and that's all that really matters here.

Clearly the implication is that since SSJ(post-ritual)>=SSG BoG, which was stated to be stronger than Vegetto, and then Trunks can match current SSJ2 Goku, logical deductions would indicate that:

SSJ2 Goku Zamasu Arc~SSJ2 Trunks Zamasu Arc>SSJ Goku(post-ritual) BoG~SSG Goku BoG>SSJ3 Vegetto

Goku saying have ki that's unreconnigzable does not have to mean his KI has grown larger.

That's clearly the intended implication of that dialogue. It is an explicit statement.

4? The name looks familiar

Alright thanks for letting me know now I can go on disregarding your future posts.

[Jesus-is Lord]

Except goku never said that as a ssj god.

Uhh yeah he did? You appear to be mistaken as far as when this was said. Goku said it immediately upon turning SSG from the ritual. Goku saiad that fusion wouldn't be enough, and that he didn't know that level of power could even exist. It is very obvious that he was stronger during this time than anything that could have or ever was produced by Vegetto. You came up with quite the convoluted explanation to conclude otherwise, but it isn't necessary because we have clear statements.

sj2 trunks somehow became stronger then ssj god, and therefore stronger then ssj3 vegito in just a decade of training? hahahahah

There's no reason to believe Trunks couldn't have achieved that level of power. Nothing implies otherwise.

I am not saying what "could" or "couldn't" be the case based on some subjective preconceived notions about how this power could be achieved. Clearly he did and that's all that really matters here.

Clearly the implication is that since SSJ(post-ritual)>=SSG BoG, which was stated to be stronger than Vegetto, and then Trunks can match current SSJ2 Goku, logical deductions would indicate that:

SSJ2 Goku Zamasu Arc~SSJ2 Trunks Zamasu Arc>SSJ Goku(post-ritual) BoG~SSG Goku BoG>SSJ3 Vegetto

Goku saying have ki that's unreconnigzable does not have to mean his KI has grown larger.

That's clearly the intended implication of that dialogue. It is an explicit statement.

4? The name looks familiar

Alright thanks for letting me know now I can go on disregarding your future posts.

That's a straight up lie! Goku never said any of this as a ssj god, the only time he brought up fusion was when he was laid out on the ground after fighting berrus as a ssj3 - aka it was pure guesswork which was later proven false by the show itself with kefla. End of Story...

It obviously "he did" NOT and I used that point to show how absurd your power scailing interprtations are. I also find it ironic how you condemn other for calling their remarks "subjective" or "opinion" but then consider your heavily flawed and bias power scailing interpretation as bascially fact. Hypocrtical, isn't it?

No, because that ssj > ssj god was simply in awake for their base being ssj god tier and their true "ssj form" being ssj blue, but that was all retconned. It was never stated that the power of ssj god rested into his ssj form, it rested into HIMSELF. That was the point! It was a pre-cursor for ssj god level base and ssj blue (as his ssj). But all of that was retconned to where their base are largey the same except a little enhanced from whis' training, hence why SSJ GOD itself is coming back (and came back with goku in the TOP). Can't you understand the narrative that's taking place here? And by that logic, the kai zamsu is already stronger then ssj god by far because he faced a ssj2 goku? are you really saying zamsu as kai is STRONGER THEN SSJ GOD AND FAR ABOVE SSJ3 VEGETTO? Is that what you are willing to come to terms with? Do you think meggeta is ssj god tier, or ssj cabba being far above ssj god, and would be strong enough to entertain berrus. SSJ CABBA, MEGGETTA, ZAMSU (AS A KAI), FROST, SSJ caulifa, SSJ GOHAN (RUSTY) - he fought ssj goku in sayainman costume and forced him ssj so it can be reasonably concluded that he's at least stronger then base goku which should be near ssj god level, ssj2 Trunks, Ribirane THESE PEOPLE could entertain berrus just as well as ssj god. That's what you are willing to believe? That's what you think the show is supporting or pointing to? That ssj goku is stronger then his ssj god in BoG?

Based on WHAT evidence that that was the "intended implication of that dialogue"? What conclusive evidence do you have to show that is what goku meant?

Alright thanks for letting me know now I can go on disregarding your future posts.

[/quote]
Tch...that's cowardly if you ask me. I'm one of the few people who can debunk your claims, while being unforgivenivly ruthless about it - so since you don't want to have your claims and opinion so strongly challenged I believe, you are just going to block me.
Hmph, whatever - so be it. You're The One Who Quit... Not Me

[sintzu]

About time they cleared this up. This was a simple way for them to bring Vegeta up to Goku with Kaioken, However it's pretty sad that his limit breaking power can only equal Full Power Goku before UI. Shows how much more of a ceiling Goku has over Vegeta in terms of talent and power.

This was all pretty clear in the anime so I don't know why it needed clearing up to begin with. Whether or not the form is used again will depend on Kaioken being used again in the future.

What I like most about this evolved Blue form is that for once Vegeta didn't just copy Goku but instead found a way to catch up on his own. He also currently has the strongest Ssj form as UI and Kaioken aren't Ssj forms so that's something he can (currently) call his own.

[Jesus-is Lord]

About time they cleared this up. This was a simple way for them to bring Vegeta up to Goku with Kaioken, However it's pretty sad that his limit breaking power can only equal Full Power Goku before UI. Shows how much more of a ceiling Goku has over Vegeta in terms of talent and power.

This was all pretty clear in the anime so I don't know why it needed clearing up to begin with. Whether or not the form is used again will depend on Kaioken being used again in the future.

What I like most about this evolved Blue form is that for once Vegeta didn't just copy Goku but instead found a way to catch up on his own. He also currently has the strongest Ssj form as UI and Kaioken aren't Ssj forms so that's something he can (currently) call his own.

So ... Fan service? I mean that's really all there is to it. Because, the form itself literally has no substance other then that. It makes no sense why goku reached UI while vegeta couldn't, and it makes no sense who vegeta got this form because the form itself is not even explained other then it being some type of evolved state of ssj blue. It's a stupid form he got under a lousy premise "Let me think about cabba... OOF new form!" for a sad reason " Vegeta needs his own form!!!!! OOF here you go".