Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ekrolo2]

What exactly could be evidence to say that there wasn't a retcon and Base Goku and Vegeta kept their super strong Base forms starting from the Future Trunks saga?

Things like Goku stopping Piccolo's big attack and him hitting Frieza are questionable. I can't think of anything significant off the top of my head.

Nothing that you couldn't also use as proof that base Goku was stronger than Super Vegetto in Z. People have to understand that, unless the scene is referencing something directly from the manga, or the fight is conclusive, performance in Toei productions are often nonindicative of actual strength. It doesn't work like the manga, anyone can fight anyone in Toei productions. Krillin can knock the wind out of Cell. Kid Gohan can knock around 100% Freeza, a with no power-up since the last time 2nd form Freeza easily beat him up. Base Vegeta can beat up SS3 Gotenks in Buu's head. Tenshinhan can hold his own against a Cell Junior.

Don't forget Toei movie logic where people pointlessly hold back against opponents they'd never do that with in the manga. Like how the Saiyan's don't immediately use SS to fight the Androids in movie 7 or to fight Broly in movie 8. There's even stuff like this in the later anime filler like SS2 Goku vs Kid Boo, SS1 Goku & Vegeta vs Boohan.

[RandomGuy96]

What exactly could be evidence to say that there wasn't a retcon and Base Goku and Vegeta kept their super strong Base forms starting from the Future Trunks saga?

Things like Goku stopping Piccolo's big attack and him hitting Frieza are questionable. I can't think of anything significant off the top of my head.

Nothing that you couldn't also use as proof that base Goku was stronger than Super Vegetto in Z. People have to understand that, unless the scene is referencing something directly from the manga, or the fight is conclusive, performance in Toei productions are often nonindicative of actual strength. It doesn't work like the manga, anyone can fight anyone in Toei productions. Krillin can knock the wind out of Cell. Kid Gohan can knock around 100% Freeza, a with no power-up since the last time 2nd form Freeza easily beat him up. Base Vegeta can beat up SS3 Gotenks in Buu's head. Tenshinhan can hold his own against a Cell Junior.

Don't forget Toei movie logic where people pointlessly hold back against opponents they'd never do that with in the manga. Like how the Saiyan's don't immediately use SS to fight the Androids in movie 7 or to fight Broly in movie 8. There's even stuff like this in the later anime filler like SS2 Goku vs Kid Boo, SS1 Goku & Vegeta vs Boohan.

The best bit of power scaling oddness I can recall from movie 8 is SS Grade 2 Vegeta being completely unable to even slightly phase Restricted SS Broly with a kick to the neck, yet base Goku had previously held his own against Restricted SS Broly and kicked him hard enough to draw blood.

[sintzu]

So ... Fan service? That's really all there is to it. Because, the form itself literally has no substance other then that.

It makes no sense why goku reached UI while vegeta couldn't.

No, they needed a way to get him up to Kaioken's level but instead of just giving him kaioken they gave him his own thing. You don't have to like it as I understand why people don't but you have to give them credit for not doing something as lazy as just giving him Kaioken as well or even just having him out of nowhere fight equally with Goku's Kaioken.

It makes perfect sense as Goku was under more pressure which seems to be the way UI is triggered. You've also got to take into account Goku being a more gifted fighter than Vegeta, something he himself admitted.

[Jesus-is Lord]

So ... Fan service? That's really all there is to it. Because, the form itself literally has no substance other then that.

It makes no sense why goku reached UI while vegeta couldn't.

No, they needed a way to get him up to Kaioken's level but instead of just giving him kaioken they gave him his own thing. You don't have to like it as I understand why people don't but you have to give them credit for not doing something as lazy as just giving him Kaioken as well or even just having him out of nowhere fight equally with Goku's Kaioken.

It makes perfect sense as Goku was under more pressure which seems to be the way UI is triggered. You've also got to take into account Goku being a more gifted fighter than Vegeta, something he himself admitted.

I agree with that first statement, hence why I think in retrospect it was best goku never got kaioken in the first place. The way how the manga executed was much better. And no, you didn't "need" to give Vegeta his own thing, that's allowing fan service to dominate your writing instead of letting the writing fall into place. If that were the case, vegeta would have gotten ssj3 in the kidd buu saga. Having vegeta be weaker then kaioken is fine, you could have done a more narrativly accurate and CREATIVE thing by giving vegeta an actaul USEFUL and powerful attack or technique. That would have been better writing, but super is written for 10 year olds. That's really what it is, so let's not kid ourselves here. The reason the show executes the way it does is because it's target base is largely little kids.

You're just echoing the bad writing from the show. First of all, the way of UI even came to be and WHAT IT IS is convulted and poorly explained - but ignoring that - how was base vegeta able to get pounded by jiren but not receive anything but somehow goku got pounded by jiren and then poofed up UI? It's bad writing. Goku isn't a more gifted fighter then vegeta, please tell me where that is ever said. Unless you are talking about that scene in the buu saga which seems to have entirly left vegeta's conscience in super, though it dosen't matter - because in super THEY ARE THE SAME STRENGTH. So it makes no sense why Vegeta never got UI, while goku did. And narrativly, it makes little sense why goku and vegeta ended getting differnt forms other then |"Vegeta needed his own form". Does plot consitency not matter for modern dragon ball, anymore?

[sintzu]

I think in retrospect it was best goku never got kaioken in the first place. The way how the manga executed was much better.

You didn't "need" to give Vegeta his own thing, that's allowing fan service to dominate your writing instead of letting the writing fall into place. If that were the case, vegeta would have gotten ssj3 in the kidd buu saga.

You're just echoing the bad writing from the show.

I fully agree.

Toriyama wrote Goku in the Buu saga as being stronger than Vegeta. The difference here is that Toei took it upon themselves to make Goku stronger than Vegeta against Hit by giving him the Kaioken. When it came time for him and Vegeta to fight as equals, they forced themselves into a corner earlier by putting Goku ahead of Vegeta despite that not being in Toriyama's script so when Toriyama just continued writing Goku and Vegeta as equals they were forced to give him something to catch up to Goku. This is why I don't think we're going to get anymore anime only forms cause it just results in messing things up in future stories.

That's the problem with Super, it rarely explains anything which leaves fans trying to figure out why and how something happened. Look at Trunks, he went from not being able to touch Base Black to fighting him in his ROSE form alongside Zamasu!!!. why ? We don't even know so you're on your own. I really hope that kind of writing is avoided in the future.

[RandomGuy96]

Again, this is not new; it's all par for the course for Toei and they did the exact same thing in Z. The moment I realized that is the moment Super started to make sense.

[ekrolo2]

The best bit of power scaling oddness I can recall from movie 8 is SS Grade 2 Vegeta being completely unable to even slightly phase Restricted SS Broly with a kick to the neck, yet base Goku had previously held his own against Restricted SS Broly and kicked him hard enough to draw blood.

Gorsh doesn't that sound really similar to whats going on nowadays

Honestly, the only halfway consistent thing about the current "system" for lack of a better word is that you can't speed blitz people anymore, even if they're monstrously weaker than the attacking party.

[Jesus-is Lord]

I think in retrospect it was best goku never got kaioken in the first place. The way how the manga executed was much better.

You didn't "need" to give Vegeta his own thing, that's allowing fan service to dominate your writing instead of letting the writing fall into place. If that were the case, vegeta would have gotten ssj3 in the kidd buu saga.

You're just echoing the bad writing from the show.

I fully agree.

Toriyama wrote Goku in the Buu saga as being stronger than Vegeta. The difference here is that Toei took it upon themselves to make Goku stronger than Vegeta against Hit by giving him the Kaioken. When it came time for him and Vegeta to fight as equals, they forced themselves into a corner earlier by putting Goku ahead of Vegeta despite that not being in Toriyama's script so when Toriyama just continued writing Goku and Vegeta as equals they were forced to give him something to catch up to Goku. This is why I don't think we're going to get anymore anime only forms cause it just results in messing things up in future stories.

That's the problem with Super, it rarely explains anything which leaves fans trying to figure out why and how something happened. Look at Trunks, he went from not being able to touch Base Black to fighting him in his ROSE form alongside Zamasu!!!. why ? We don't even know so you're on your own. I really hope that kind of writing is avoided in the future.

Yep, agreed with all your sentiments, though toei should have just given vegeta UI omen. It's a toei-only form so it wouldn't mess up toriyama script.

[sintzu]

Toei should have just given vegeta UI omen. It's a toei-only form so it wouldn't mess up toriyama script.

That may have been better but they could've been afraid of ending up in the same place (being stuck later thanks to an early assumption) so they just decided to completely leave UI for Toriyama.

[Jesus-is Lord]

Toei should have just given vegeta UI omen. It's a toei-only form so it wouldn't mess up toriyama script.

That may have been better but they could've been afraid of ending up in the same place (being stuck later thanks to an early assumption) so they just decided to completely leave UI for Toriyama.

Maybe, though if were so then why make Omen in the first place? Just have MUI in the special, then have MUI come at the end, again. Introduce kaioken x 20 against kefla, while against Jiren he only used normal kaioken... (and before you argue why didn't he use full power kaioken because he didn't okay? No one would care). That would have been better in terms of the story, and have vegeta achieve evolution around the same time it did in the anime, but the impact would be largely since it's not clouded by Omen since omen wouldn't exist.

[HeroR]

What exactly could be evidence to say that there wasn't a retcon and Base Goku and Vegeta kept their super strong Base forms starting from the Future Trunks saga?

Things like Goku stopping Piccolo's big attack and him hitting Frieza are questionable. I can't think of anything significant off the top of my head.

How is the Piccolo one questionable? A stronger than ever base form Gohan was evenly matched with Goku and then Ultimate Gohan got held back by Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Are you really going to claim that Super Saiyan 2 Goku who held back stronger than ever Ultimate Gohan was just a little ahead of Piccolo or something? And in the Future Trunks Saga, we had Super Saiyan 2 Goku fighting as base form Goku Black who was said to be on par with Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Despite holding back, Black considered Goku a worthy opponent, despite mud stomping Super Saiyan 2 Trunks.

From the Universal Survival Saga, we had Goku fighting a faster and stronger Fit Buu in his base form. We then had base form Vegeta blasting Monna who nearly ran over Super Saiyan Cabba, although she claimed she got cheap shotted.

[Bullza]

They are questionable. Piccolo wouldnt have used his full power against Goku because he was sparring anyway. It's also a shitty move anyway because even back in Dragon Ball it did not damage to Goku when he was standing a few feet away.

Ultimate Gohan was holding back against Super Saiyan 2 Goku so that doesn't tell you much.

If Goku Black was as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku and then proceeded to fight evenly with Super Saiyan 2 Goku then he was probably holding back.

Buu also was just sparring so he'd be holding back.

Vegeta is about as strong as Cabba and him blasting away Monna doesn't mean too much. He went Super Saiyan for Ribrianne but then Base Goku kicked her around.

Nothing is concrete about any of that.

[Marlowe89]

Seconding Bullza's post. No idea why people keep bringing up the Buu sparring match when Buu was just told to focus on ringing-out his opponent and still won anyway.

Not to mention all the stuff from the actual tournament that suggests he isn't as strong as some like to pretend.

[ZombieVito]

I was very adamant about the idea of Gotenks getting weaker since it was never stated but after seeing this:



They boys are clearly rusty. Also in EoZ they where stated to slack off so I guess I could buy that Gotenks lost power. At least his RoSaT boost. This would allow us to nerf base Goku and Vegeta a bit.

Having said that, base Goku has to at least be stronger than his SS3 form from BoG judging by his fight with Beerus in E42.

[SSJgogeto]

If that's true then how strong is Roshi?

[ZombieVito]

If that's true then how strong is Roshi?

Weaker than the kids as Super Saiyans.

[SSJgogeto]

And he still can make Goku's fists tingle, despite being so weak. What's your theory about this?

[ZombieVito]

Goku obviously held back.

But if I'm remember correctly someone working on the show said Roshi got stronger thanks to the magic Yurin did.

[Nevaeh]

Lol nothing's been retconned. Everybody just got plot based power ups. Priot to the tournament Base Goku survived Hakai..

Roshi, Krillin and 18 from the ToP would fodderize SSJ3 Gotenks just as easily as Copy Vegeta did

That butterfly chick that got eliminated first would body Super Vegito

[ZombieVito]

Lol nothing's been retconned. Everybody just got plot based power ups. Priot to the tournament Base Goku survived Hakai..

Roshi, Krillin and 18 from the ToP would fodderize SSJ3 Gotenks just as easily as Copy Vegeta did

That butterfly chick that got eliminated first would body Super Vegito

The humans are confirmed weaker than the kids as Super Saiyans in an interview of Super.