By benefactor, I meant Roshi's preceding training with Karin. Similar to the Kamehameha, Roshi climbed his way up the tower to reach the top and proceeded to spent the next 3 years trying to claim the water from Karin before Goku ever did so. The intensity of Roshi's training should have logically been influenced by the rigours he endured atop Karin's tower since it's there that he increased his own strength and presumably established a new pedestal of strength. Goku would have inadvertently benefited from that experience as he laboured under Roshi's guidance. Roshi lacked that kind of preemptive advantage when he first climbed. All he would have had to work with is Mutaito and the Crane Hermit in his early years -- both of whom are good martial artists to work with, but Karin is technically a deity in his own right.emperior wrote:Of course Goku benefitted from Roshi’s teachings, it is the reason why he is still wearing the orange gi in his honor and respect. This doesn’t change the fact that, compared to Goku, Roshi is nothing talent wise. It’s the reason why he happily retired, as he felt that finally a new extremely capable generation of martial artists had emerged.Lionel wrote:Goku was already an extensional benefactor of Roshi's toils and efforts during his own personal climb to martial acclaim when he followed the hands-on example of his mentor throughout their time together labouring on the island prior to the 21st tournament. Just about every specific notable ability Goku has acquired, to my immediate knowledge at least, has been gleaned from or was inspired by the tutelage of others that had already laid the foundation down for them to cultivate upwards from there. It's like comparing Roshi's 50 years of tinkering with ki manipulation to conceive the Kamehameha with Goku witnessing the completed version once and then generating an imitation of it back in the first arc of the series. But even then, I wouldn't limit the scope of potential aptitude to just a person's ability to copy other techniques to whatever degree they're capable of mimicking them by.emperior wrote: Nope. Sorry, what you wrote there makes no sense. Roshi was never a more talented martial artist than Goku, which is why it took him 3 years to adapt to Korin’s movements and get the water from him, while it took Goku just 3 days.
Roshi is way less talented than the likes of Krillin, Tenshinan, Yamcha, Chaozu. He should never be able to become a better martial artist than those, not even if he was younger. Even if you take Toyo’s Roshi in account, it’s implied he is that way because of his wisdom and experience. There’s no way he should be able to achieve Ultra Instinct faster than Beerus either.
See, this is why I absolutely despise this latest chapter. It makes Roshi into something he never was, ignoring everything his character was in the original manga, just for the sake of having him look cool. Because, frankly, if Goku had to “learn” Ultra Instinct during the tournament, he would have been able to do it alone and to realize alone that what he needed to beat Jiren was the same thing Beerus used in the Zen Exhibition match, which Goku saw with his own eyes. I would have preferred to see Goku slowly getting UI going through some phases, from a version more imperfect than Beerus’ (the one Roshi was gifted with) to a version similar to Beerus’, to Omen and then to the mastered one.
He didn’t need another teaching from a man who claimed multiple times he had no more to teach.
I still stand by how Goku casually achieving UI as he did in the anime was the best way to introduce the form. It also explains how Goku, at the end of the ToP, still isn’t able to use UI at will, as he achieved it for pure luck and in the perfect situation and condition, by breaking his limits.
I'm not going to justify Roshi's performance in this chapter. My argument is that he may have the potential to grasp it in a timely manner just like with others, possibly sooner if his centuries worth of living as a career martial artist bears any merit in a situation like this.
You have all the rights to believe that Roshi could learn the full Ultra Instinct if we go by the latest chapter of the manga. Unfortunately, it doesn’t really have sense if you think about what the original manga established regarding Roshi’s character, and there’s no way I would ever buy Roshi being able to learn Ultra Instinct faster than Goku, Vegeta and even Beerus.
We don’t know much of Beerus, but I was always under the assumption that Beerus is also very talented which is why he was able to reach the level he is at. We know he has been training to learn Ultra Instinct for million of years so if he still couldn’t grasp the full thing, then Roshi has no hope of doing it in a relatively short time.
We never do see Roshi glean techniques or receive instruction under anyone else in the manga directly. Once after having witnessed Tenshinhan's prestige in the 22nd tournament, he gives up the match and returns to retirement. By comparison, Beerus has been learning whatever he's obtained under Whis. I would like to see what Beerus' learning curve is since it apparently took him millions of years just to acquire the abilities he currently has. Maybe his lazy personality acts as a hindrance to him mastering Ultra Instinct. Roshi's learning curve is also unknown, though if he managed to grasp enough of the Mafuba to begin practicing it somehow just from observing his master use it then it's possible to argue that he also possesses a keen analytical mind when it comes to techniques.
