Ups ... what’s going on here .... sometimes I think people don’t read the manga and they just watch YouTubers reactionsFireFly wrote:Just Toyotaro pulling a contrived excuse to introduce Goku to UI without needing Beerus do to some demonstration to him first.
Ok. If this is the case, I don't want to see either you or Miracles have a single complaint about anything the series does. If this is ok, anything should be fine. I will remind you all of your defense of this when any other issue arise from a writing standpoint in the series.prince212 wrote:Amen to that last sentence.Kataphrut wrote:[spoiler]Herms made a tweet about the Goku and Trunks v Black and Zamasu fight in the anime (https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1034635100619599872) that sums up the issue I have with getting worked up over power-scaling. The idea that this amazing fight sequence was controversial because the weakest character isn't immediately one-shot is ludicrous. Never mind that as Herms says, Trunks never manages to seriously harm either of them and is clearly on the back foot throughout most of the fight so it isn't even particularly inconsistent. It confirms my suspicion that most dedicated power scalers aren't really paying attention to the action onscreen, they're just constantly running numbers in their head like they're studying for an exam.
Now, this logic also applies to most of Roshi's fights in the anime, particularly him vs Frost. To anyone watching, it's obvious Roshi stands no chance against Frost, is being toyed with and is completely worn out by the end. But because he landed a couple of surprise blows during that fight, "the power-scaling is bad." I don't personally care about this, you could have Krillin throwing hands with Jiren and I'll buy it so long as it makes sense on screen (and hey, remember when that was a hyperbolic statement used to exaggerate Super's power-scaling issues?). The problem I have with Roshi v Jiren and the defence of it is that the manga was meant to be the version that avoided the issue. This is the same version that mostly sidelined Trunks in his own arc to avoid having him fight god-tier characters, and people praised it for being "better than the anime." This is the version that blitzed through the Tournament of Power, taking out characters and even entire universes that the anime at least attempted to utilise and people praised it because "it's more like a battle royale."
Roshi v Jiren broke the rules the manga was operating under in the worst way possible. It didn't even feel like an underdog fight compared to Frost v Roshi in the anime, it was basically Roshi styling on Jiren until the latter randomly decided he'd had enough and blew him away. This is the version people praise for being more grounded and less "rule of cool" than the anime, but ends up producing the shallowest "cool moment" of them all.[/spoiler] All it really goes to show is that looking for grounding in Dragon Ball is pointless, and you're better off just embracing the fun.
Mostly agree all in your message.
I take the fun , look for coherence just make me think that , for example goku should be out of the tournament by Jiren long time ago , in both versions . Call them plot convenience, plot holes , coherence or whatever , there’s always tons of them .
I take the fun and run . Roshi 2 pages dodging was one of the best moments in my opinion . Chill .
Sometimes they work better or not , depending of your tastes, for example I hate bulma going to the future and facing zamasu and nobody complains about it . There is other times like mr.satan surviving a punch from cell that I take it funny ..
So this roshi jiren , I really liked it . But I understand most of people not . For me in that chapter containing roshi vs jiren , gohan vs kefla was worse , I can’t deal with kafla admitting her defeat like she did ... in a serious moment ...
Roshi jiren was a joke just to adjust the ultra instinct plot in that way , that for me still has more sense that eat a boom and obtain ultra instinct . Btw was nice too
Roshi wasn't there to see Goku vs Cell.Miracles wrote:Roshi was watching Full power Super Saiyan Goku vs Perfect Cell back in the Cell Saga.
Even told Kuririn in RoF that they were able to see amazing battles before their fight. So, Freeza's goons should be no problem to keep up with.
That would definitely be a case of bad writing if Roshi could follow Ssb Goku vs Frieza for most of it.Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P7.3-5reecehoward wrote:Roshi wasn't there to see Goku vs Cell.Miracles wrote:Roshi was watching Full power Super Saiyan Goku vs Perfect Cell back in the Cell Saga.
Even told Kuririn in RoF that they were able to see amazing battles before their fight. So, Freeza's goons should be no problem to keep up with.
Wow...you realize in that context, even Bulma is able to follow it.smh Obviously they can only pick up some of it AND it's through TV. With that in mind, of course with the bit Roshi can perceive, he can tell who has the edge. He doesn't even need to see them actually fight, as he says right there, he can judge it by their composure. You tried it though, so I'll give you credit.Miracles wrote:Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P7.3-5reecehoward wrote:Roshi wasn't there to see Goku vs Cell.Miracles wrote:Roshi was watching Full power Super Saiyan Goku vs Perfect Cell back in the Cell Saga.
Even told Kuririn in RoF that they were able to see amazing battles before their fight. So, Freeza's goons should be no problem to keep up with.
Context: after Cell blocks Goku’s attacks with a barrier
Bulma: “Wha—aat, that was so close! He was just a step away!”
Kame-sennin: “…No he wasn’t…It’s true that it looks like they’re having a good match, but…unlike Goku, Cell still has room for composure left…[ ] ...Goku can’t win…What’s more, to me it looks as if he knows that but is still fighting…I don’t know what he’s thinking…”
Well, the fact is, Roshi can tell who has the advantage because he can see the whole fight. And his wisdom knows who is stronger.reecehoward wrote:Wow...you realize in that context, even Bulma is able to follow it.smh Obviously they can only pick up some of it AND it's through TV. With that in mind, of course with the bit Roshi can perceive, he can tell who has the edge. He doesn't even need to see them actually fight, as he says right there, he can judge it by their composure. You tried it though, so I'll give you credit.Miracles wrote:Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P7.3-5reecehoward wrote: Roshi wasn't there to see Goku vs Cell.
Context: after Cell blocks Goku’s attacks with a barrier
Bulma: “Wha—aat, that was so close! He was just a step away!”
Kame-sennin: “…No he wasn’t…It’s true that it looks like they’re having a good match, but…unlike Goku, Cell still has room for composure left…[ ] ...Goku can’t win…What’s more, to me it looks as if he knows that but is still fighting…I don’t know what he’s thinking…”
If he saw the whole fight then so did Bulma.Miracles wrote:Well, the fact is, Roshi can tell who has the advantage because he can see the whole fight. And his wisdom knows who is stronger.reecehoward wrote:Wow...you realize in that context, even Bulma is able to follow it.smh Obviously they can only pick up some of it AND it's through TV. With that in mind, of course with the bit Roshi can perceive, he can tell who has the edge. He doesn't even need to see them actually fight, as he says right there, he can judge it by their composure. You tried it though, so I'll give you credit.Miracles wrote: Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P7.3-5
Context: after Cell blocks Goku’s attacks with a barrier
Bulma: “Wha—aat, that was so close! He was just a step away!”
Kame-sennin: “…No he wasn’t…It’s true that it looks like they’re having a good match, but…unlike Goku, Cell still has room for composure left…[ ] ...Goku can’t win…What’s more, to me it looks as if he knows that but is still fighting…I don’t know what he’s thinking…”
Which goes back to the point...This wackiness is Dragonball. If Bulma can see it; shouldn't be surprised by Roshi viewing it.reecehoward wrote:If he saw the whole fight then so did Bulma.Miracles wrote:Well, the fact is, Roshi can tell who has the advantage because he can see the whole fight. And his wisdom knows who is stronger.reecehoward wrote:Wow...you realize in that context, even Bulma is able to follow it.smh Obviously they can only pick up some of it AND it's through TV. With that in mind, of course with the bit Roshi can perceive, he can tell who has the edge. He doesn't even need to see them actually fight, as he says right there, he can judge it by their composure. You tried it though, so I'll give you credit.
I can't...Miracles wrote:Which goes back to the point...This wackiness is Dragonball. If Bulma can see it; shouldn't be surprised by Roshi viewing it.reecehoward wrote:If he saw the whole fight then so did Bulma.Miracles wrote: Well, the fact is, Roshi can tell who has the advantage because he can see the whole fight. And his wisdom knows who is stronger.
You got me there. 
How bad was Vegeta taking blows from Kid Buu too?Rakurai wrote:Watching the latest Abridged episode made me realize that DB used to pull shit like this all the time for dramatic effect.
16 could hold Perfect Cell, who should already be leagues above him in physical strength. Worse, his bomb could apparently kill Cell off too.
Really? All it took was a mad scientist's bomb? Bulma could have delivered it to them then and chuck it at him and problem solved.
At least Roshi's stunt has an extremely important narrative impact.
To be fair Cell did say this afterwards:Rakurai wrote:Watching the latest Abridged episode made me realize that DB used to pull shit like this all the time for dramatic effect.
16 could hold Perfect Cell, who should already be leagues above him in physical strength. Worse, his bomb could apparently kill Cell off too.
Really? All it took was a mad scientist's bomb? Bulma could have delivered it to them then and chuck it at him and problem solved.
At least Roshi's stunt has an extremely important narrative impact.
That's very similar to Roshi styling on Jiren and then Jiren knocking him off with a wimpy karate chop. What's even more similar is how Cell destroying 16 lead to Gohan transforming and Jiren vs Roshi lead to Goku transforming.The Monkey King wrote:To be fair Cell did say this afterwards:Rakurai wrote:Watching the latest Abridged episode made me realize that DB used to pull shit like this all the time for dramatic effect.
16 could hold Perfect Cell, who should already be leagues above him in physical strength. Worse, his bomb could apparently kill Cell off too.
Really? All it took was a mad scientist's bomb? Bulma could have delivered it to them then and chuck it at him and problem solved.
At least Roshi's stunt has an extremely important narrative impact.
Chapter: 406 (DBZ 212), P9.2
Context: after it turns out No.16's bomb has been removed
Cell: “Too bad, No.16…Though I don’t think I would have died from a mere bomb anyway.”
Ahh, right he did say that. Thanks for the context. But like Roshi vs Jiren, for the briefest of moments we were fooled to believe of something that should've been ridiculous right from the start (Roshi being able to keep up with Jiren, 16 being able to blow Cell up).The Monkey King wrote:To be fair Cell did say this afterwards:Rakurai wrote:Watching the latest Abridged episode made me realize that DB used to pull shit like this all the time for dramatic effect.
16 could hold Perfect Cell, who should already be leagues above him in physical strength. Worse, his bomb could apparently kill Cell off too.
Really? All it took was a mad scientist's bomb? Bulma could have delivered it to them then and chuck it at him and problem solved.
At least Roshi's stunt has an extremely important narrative impact.
Chapter: 406 (DBZ 212), P9.2
Context: after it turns out No.16's bomb has been removed
Cell: “Too bad, No.16…Though I don’t think I would have died from a mere bomb anyway.”
I mean, the same Cell was also confident that he could defeat SSJ2 Gohan at first:The Monkey King wrote:To be fair Cell did say this afterwards:
Chapter: 406 (DBZ 212), P9.2
Context: after it turns out No.16's bomb has been removed
Cell: “Too bad, No.16…Though I don’t think I would have died from a mere bomb anyway.”
[/spoiler]Pretty much why I dislike it. The fact that Goku was degraded to such a degree for this one moment is just appalling to me. It's not as if Goku hasn't been in worse situations than what is shown here, for him to just all of a sudden forget his fundamentals is just piss poor writing. Goku is not just a fighter, he is THE fighter, and the series has let us know that since his first Kamehameha.FoolsGil wrote:The reason why Roshi v Jiren is bad, is because it spits in the face of everything that came before it.
Dragonball isn't One Piece. Dragonball was never the series where someone like Krillin can make it with enough determination. But in Super, starting with the RoF, and now in the ToP, the series wants to pretend that half of the Z Fighters didn't die when Vegeta came to Earth, or that all the human fighters besides Krillin have reached off screen new heights in power. And then it culminates in this circle jerk of Master Roshi using a Proto UI against Jiren.
Forget where was this against Raditz. Where was this against King Piccolo? When Master Roshi said the only thing that could stop him was the Mafuba? And no, it makes no sense that somehow Master Roshi would have the same outcome if he fought King Piccolo like he fought Jiren. Why? Because King Piccolo is a speck of sand in the beach that is Dragonball power scaling. King Piccolo could barely destroy a city with one blast while Jiren is stronger than at least One God of Destruction, so how the hell is Master Roshi going to be fast enough to keep up with Jiren, but cannot seal the deal with someone infinitely weaker and infinitely slower than Jiren. Some things about Dragonball can't be rewritten because plot.
Now, let's say for the sake of (a very stupid) argument, that Master Roshi would do the exact same with every opponent stronger than him. he can dodge a few attacks against Jiren before failing? Then the same with King Piccolo...So, why didn't he train? He knew the Saiyans were coming. He knew the Androids were coming. Surely if he could dodge so goddamn well, then he could have trained to dodge even more. Maybe even train the younger fighters so they could do as well as him. Maybe that dodging, could have evolved into punching. Shoot he could have discovered UI on his own, and Tenshinhan and Piccolo and all the others could have learned it as well. But that didn't happen. So, apparently, Master Roshi is negligent. He has had all this access to a proto UI all this time but decides to use it now. And maybe just maybe if there was precedent? If he had actually did ANYTHING of value in Z, then sure, why not. But in this shoddy attempt to rewrite the past sins that this series has made by making everything about the Saiyans? No. Just no. And that's why Roshi v Jiren is bad.
PS Speaking of Piccolo: Kami has lived longer than Master Roshi, he is a better fighter and instructor than Master Roshi, and being the God of Earth for a time, had access to all kinds of knowledge, that was instantly transferred to Piccolo when they fused...So why the hell doesn't Piccolo know this Proto UI? Why wasn't he fighting Jiren? That would make more sense, he's been in the thick of it from the very beginning, and he's been thrown the most bones out of everyone. He didn't just come out of nowhere and be like "I'm strong now" We saw his evolution for years. If there is anyone who should have been able to click at the most opportune time, it should have been Piccolo, not an old lech who gave up decades ago
