No Kaio-Ken for Yamcha, Chiaotzu, Ten & Piccolo?

[LegendarySSJ7]

I feel it was that Goku had more of a stretch of time, incentive to run off of, and knowledge of the great peril that was heading his way. This forced his hand in learning Kaio-ken. In Tenshinhan's, Yamcha's, and Chaozu's case, there was no immediate threat after the defeat of Freeza, and even though they did grasp the training Goku received quicker (in what they learned, so Goku's Saiyan heritage may not have much pertinence), there wasn't much reason to learn the aforementioned techniques. And though Tenshinhan did intend to surpass Goku by a length (which may have been less a response and more forethought), in the timeframe you reference, there such a massive distance between the two in power that it's hard to find merit in mentioning such.

But that goes without saying that Kaio-ken is a massively ineffectual technique that burns up chi rather quickly and only lasts for a window of a moment. Then there's also the Genki Dama. Again, not a lot of incentive. As for Piccolo... he apparently had projected a bukujutsu improved upon enough to impress Nail. Still, I just don't see anyone past Goku having a reason to learn any technique that they supposedly didn't.

[Xyex]

Of course, the last time he had any data on Goku was when Goku was at 8,000.

Except that Gero confused Yamcha not for the Goku he'd last monitored but for the Goku he expected to encounter.

My guess is that Yamcha peaks around 20,000.

Wait, what? Gero confuse Yamcha for his estimation of Goku when Yamcha's at 20,000 and Goku was, just four years ago, at 8,000? If Gero takes Goku's increase between his battle with Raditz and his fight with Vegeta as the absolute maximum increase he can make per year that's still a 20x boost. Even if he were to write that off as a one-time-only-cause-he-was-dead-deal he'd still probably figure Goku to improve by around 10 fold between his fight with Vegeta and when he'd, finally, be able to attack him. So I figure Yamcha had to be at least 40,000 by the time the Androids appeared. Possibly as high as 90,000.

[Rocketman]

Except that Gero confused Yamcha not for the Goku he'd last monitored but for the Goku he expected to encounter.

Which is based on a projection from 8,000 that didn't include the rapid acceleration towards Super Saiyan.

Wait, what? Gero confuse Yamcha for his estimation of Goku when Yamcha's at 20,000 and Goku was, just four years ago, at 8,000? If Gero takes Goku's increase between his battle with Raditz and his fight with Vegeta as the absolute maximum increase he can make per year that's still a 20x boost. Even if he were to write that off as a one-time-only-cause-he-was-dead-deal he'd still probably figure Goku to improve by around 10 fold between his fight with Vegeta and when he'd, finally, be able to attack him. So I figure Yamcha had to be at least 40,000 by the time the Androids appeared. Possibly as high as 90,000.

You're not thinking the right way. Gero's data is based on Goku's increases from when he thrashed the RRA, where he peaks at 416, if you cut out the miracle-from-death boost.

Goku gets about a 4 fold increase in the ten years prior to his death (he had to be near 100 to evenly match Roshi at the 21st), then gets a 20-fold increase from special circumstances that won't be repeated.

So, four years....about a 2-fold increase, if he continues on the path he'd been going. Bump it up some to the 'extreme rate of growth', puts Goku in the 20,000s.

Of course, Gero also knows of the Kaioken and that Goku's PL can be temporarily increased 3-fold from concentrating ki into a Kamehameha...Give him 25,000 base battle-ready power, Kaioken x10 (Gero's seen up to x4 and can reasonably assume Goku would learn to push it further), a times five increase when charging a Super Kamehameha... 1,250,000. Build in a margin of error, say, put himself and #19 at 2,000,000, and they're comfortably beyond what Goku should be able to do at his absolute max.

Except Goku and Vegeta became Super Saiyans and Piccolo fused with Nail, but hey.

[NzK]

I feel it was that Goku had more of a stretch of time, incentive to run off of, and knowledge of the great peril that was heading his way. This forced his hand in learning Kaio-ken. In Tenshinhan's, Yamcha's, and Chaozu's case, there was no immediate threat after the defeat of Freeza, and even though they did grasp the training Goku received quicker (in what they learned, so Goku's Saiyan heritage may not have much pertinence), there wasn't much reason to learn the aforementioned techniques.

I agree. If North Kaio didn't teach Goku the Kaio-Ken, he would have been unable to defeat both Saiya-Jins, which must've been the primary objective of the training. And since North Kaio was under the impression that Ten, Chaozu, Yamucha and Piccolo were not going to fight Furiza, there really would have been no need to have taught it to them.

Then there's the point about body structure. During DB in particular, Goku often gets credited for his "endurance", how he seems to take many hits and continue fighting, much to the surprise of a lot of people. This would indicate a more robust anatomy perhaps? It may just be this which seperates him from the non-Saiya-Jins.

But the reason I believe the most is what Drunken Master brought up. It's because he's the protagonist, he's the only one which gets the awesome technique which multiplies his power. AT needed to give him techniques like the Kaio-Ken, so he could continue being the only one to stand a chance against all odds.

[kaioken12]

Then I am wondering, why he didn't teach them to use the Genkidama as well.

That shouldn't need to much power, should it?

I always got the feeling that the humans didn't learn a thing at King Kai's apart from "normal training" at 10 times gravity...

[Captain Awesome]

I always got the feeling that the humans didn't learn a thing at King Kai's apart from "normal training" at 10 times gravity...

Thats the same conclusion I came to, they chased Bubbles around (and Gregory if you believe he exists) and then...nothing.

Tenshinhan: "So Kaio-sama, now that we've adjusted to the gravity, what super techniques can you teach us?"

Kaio: "I could teach you the Kaio-ken and the Genki-Dama..But I wont..I have to make sure that you all become completely useless, so whenever there is a big battle, you can slow it down by talking about it, and basically just piss everyone off"

[Rocketman]

Didn't the Spirit Bomb need a pure heart to use? Or was that something else?

[Captain Awesome]

Didn't the Spirit Bomb need a pure heart to use? Or was that something else?

I thought if you had a pure heart, you could deflect it, I can't remember if Kaio said anything about needing to be pure of heart to actually use it.

[Kaboom]

Didn't the Spirit Bomb need a pure heart to use? Or was that something else?

I thought if you had a pure heart, you could deflect it, I can't remember if Kaio said anything about needing to be pure of heart to actually use it.

Given that Cell claimed to be able to use it, I'd say so.

[Rocketman]

Given that Cell claimed to be able to use it, I'd say so.

In the words of Vegeta, "My heart is pure - pure evil!"

[finnishjuoppo]

King Kai was just too lazy

[Xyex]

Didn't the Spirit Bomb need a pure heart to use? Or was that something else?

I thought if you had a pure heart, you could deflect it, I can't remember if Kaio said anything about needing to be pure of heart to actually use it.

I'm pretty sure you do, and that it's said in the series somewhere. Movie 7 even refrences it, when Goku transforms while gathering the energy for the Spirit Bomb. Something about how his heart isn't pure in that form and he can't use it with the Spirit Bomb or something. I can't remember exactly, it's been a while since I've seen movie 7 in Japanese and the dub completely changes the line to say that Goku is pure, even as a Super Saiya-jin.

[Rocketman]

Kaio: "I could teach you the Kaio-ken and the Genki-Dama..But I wont..I have to make sure that you all become completely useless, so whenever there is a big battle, you can slow it down by talking about it, and basically just piss everyone off"

Also, you forgot something: King Kai himself couldn't use the Kaioken. I think it's totally plausible that the humans simply couldn't use it.

Then there's the fact that if they blew themselves up with it, they would vanish from all planes of existence.

I personally think the humans did learn some neat techniques from King Kai, even if it wasn't the Kaioken or Spirit Bomb, but they just got so completely outgunned after Goku became a Super Saiyan the chance never came up.

I mean, even if they did learn the KK and SB...

Tien: Alright guys, I'm gonna fight #19 with a dangerous technique that will strain my body to its limits quickly and possibly kill me!

Vegeta: You can do that, or I could go Super, and be able to fight harder for longer with no risk to my body.

Tien: No, wait! I'll stand in one place for a long-ass time and summon an energy ball to throw at them!

Vegeta: Great! Then after they absorb it, I can kill you without complaints from anyone else! Fuck off. *goes Super, whoops ass*

Tien: *emo*

[Xyex]

I mean, even if they did learn the KK and SB...

Tenshinhan: Alright guys, I'm gonna fight #19 with a dangerous technique that will strain my body to its limits quickly and possibly kill me!

Vegeta: You can do that, or I could go Super, and be able to fight harder for longer with no risk to my body.

Tenshinhan: No, wait! I'll stand in one place for a long-ass time and summon an energy ball to throw at them!

Vegeta: Great! Then after they absorb it, I can kill you without complaints from anyone else! Fuck off. *goes Super, whoops ass*

Tenshinhan: *emo*

XDDDDDDDDDDDDD

Though Tien could have pulled out the Kaioken against Semi-Perfect Cell if he'd been able to learn it. But I do think he incorporated the basic concepts of the Kaioken and the Spirit Bomb into his Tri-beam in order to create the more powerful version he used to stall Semi-Perfect Cell with.

[finnishjuoppo]

I just thought that what Piccolo,Tien,Yamcha and Chiatzou can do after training with king kai:

Piccolo:almost win second form Frieza with rushattack (altough he fused with nail but still!)
Tien: Kicked some Cell ass
Yamcha:got his ass beaten by gero
Chiatzou:he won Guldo when he was dead, but as living person he didn't do anything.

[Captain Awesome]

Chiatzou:he won Guldo when he was dead, but as living person he didn't do anything.

But that was filler, most people agree that there's no way any of them were strong enough to actually win.

What was Goku's Battle Power after leaving Kaio's place?, like 5000?

[caejones]

Goku's power was around 5000 when he was wished back, but he was well under a thousand when he died--whereas the way Yamcha and Tenshinhan handle the Saibamen shows that they were above 1200 at the time of their deaths.
... Hmm... If maybe they al went up to five thousand and used a ten × Kaioken, they could have matched the Ginyu Force.

[Duo]

Goku fought at a power level of over 8,000 against Nappa without using the Kaio-ken.

[Captain Awesome]

Goku fought at a power level of over 8,000 against Nappa without using the Kaio-ken.

Right you are, I completely forgot about the scene where he powers up (without Kaio-ken) infront of Nappa and Vegeta.

[caejones]

Yeah... 5000 was his suppressed power.