"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Rakurai]

I do agree that the chapter where Kale eliminated 4 universes at once felt quite rushed, like Toyo wanted to just get rid of the fodder right there and then. But that was because it was all condensed into one chapter. If he had spread the eliminations out a little more evenly in the previous chapters (e.g. do more off-screen eliminations like before or give some to other U6/U11 members), it wouldn't have had to feel that way.

Aside from that, I think the pacing itself has been fine for the most part.

[Spider-Man]

Universe 6 wasn't important in the anime. They were eliminated before u3 and u4, and they had to share their final moments with u2.

I disagree U6 was important because they have the most focus aside from U7 and 11 and had a connections with U7.

[Miracles]

What you have to look at is that 95 percent of the contestants are fodder

As they should be. I've explained this numerous times in greater detail, but the manga made no promises that any universe but 6, 7 and 11 would have any prominence. Any expectation you have going in of other universes "mattering" is strictly because of the anime.

Where others saw "obviously rushed pacing", I saw an arc that knew what story it wanted to tell and uncompromisingly stuck to it.

The only story arc with bad pacing in the manga is Battle of Gods.

Exactly. The story made U11, U7 and U6 the main factors. U11 being the main obstacle and U6 has connections with U7. The manga used every other universe to promote the main players and stuck with that.

[Rakurai]

They both could be nods to Broly’s line and not Toyo’s ‘Demon Saiyan’.

I never thought of it any other way. OG Broly is the prototype for Kale and DBS Broly, of course they're going to use his popular perception as a clutch for characterization. They're both "demons" so to speak, the result is the same.

I personally see it as many things. It connects Kale and Broly. It gives off a parallel of Broly and his form being a demonic form vs Goku and Vegeta with their forms being godly forms.

I find it funny how Cabba and his race knew nothing of SSJ and when they transformed into it, they didn’t recognize it but she they saw Kale go into her form of SSJ (the same as Broly’s from) they recognized it as the legendary “demonic saiyan”. There definitely seems to be something up with Broly and Kale’s form and a legend in U6 Sadala. Maybe instead of an SSJ or SSGod legend, they had a Demonic saiyan legend.

Oops sorry I missed this response.

It wasn't the form so much as it was her erratic, rampaging behavior and incredible power that Cabba correlated Kale with the legendary Saiyan.

The SSG legend wasn't even known until Beerus came down to ask about it, so I doubt the U6 Saiyans would know of it either. But it's clear that the LSSJ tale is well-known in both universes in one way or another, Super Saiyan or not.

[TKA]

I do agree that the chapter where Kale eliminated 4 universes at once felt quite rushed, like Toyo wanted to just get rid of the fodder right there and then. But that was because it was all condensed into one chapter. If he had spread the eliminations out a little more evenly in the previous chapters (e.g. do more off-screen eliminations like before or give some to other U6/U11 members), it wouldn't have had to feel that way.

I disagree.

If the eliminations were more spread out, Kale's form wouldn't have any narrative weight. It'd just be another drop in the bucket. The fact that this chapter sticks out in memory is testament to how well it accomplished what it was meant to.

Kale transforming and then rapidly eliminating people added actual gravitas to the form, without shallow reference weirdness like her walking through Kamehamehas and beating on characters that should be above her.

The only instance of outright bad pacing in this arc was Kafla and Gohan's fight being offscreened. That deserved more panel time.

[Doctor.]

and beating on characters that should be above her.

Like Freeza?

[AnimeNation101]

I feel like Toyotaro should make the transition to a bi-weekly author of the DBS manga. Maybe 25 page chapters every 2 weeks. Especially if he’s gonna want to stay ahead of the dbs anime when it comes back. Sure, going off of time and what we already know, he’ll have somewhat of a headstart in diving into new dbs story content but would he really be able to keep the lead if his manga come out once a month?

I think the best thing to do is move Toyotaro is Weekly Shonen Jump and have DBS be produced bi-weekly. A DBS manga chapter is 45 pages but since Toyotaro has half the time, he’s come out with 25 pages (a little over half). And we know Toriyama helps him draw the manga so he could help Toyotaro if at first he isn’t used to working fast (even though he’ll have half the work load anyway).

And give him a proper editor. Someone who will actually be strict with him.

All this could lead to a better manga which could be a reference for the anime which would make a better anime as well.

[Rakurai]

I do agree that the chapter where Kale eliminated 4 universes at once felt quite rushed, like Toyo wanted to just get rid of the fodder right there and then. But that was because it was all condensed into one chapter. If he had spread the eliminations out a little more evenly in the previous chapters (e.g. do more off-screen eliminations like before or give some to other U6/U11 members), it wouldn't have had to feel that way.

I disagree.

If the eliminations were more spread out, Kale's form wouldn't have any narrative weight. It'd just be another drop in the bucket. The fact that this chapter sticks out in memory is testament to how well it accomplished what it was meant to.

Kale transforming and then rapidly eliminating people added actual gravitas to the form, without shallow reference weirdness like her walking through Kamehamehas and beating on characters that should be above her.

The only instance of outright bad pacing in this arc was Kafla and Gohan's fight being offscreened. That deserved more panel time.

Kale could eliminate 2 universes in a few panels, one of them being U3 so she could ragstomp on Aniraza, and it would still have the same impact as eliminating 4. Readers would be shocked regardless whether she would have ~10 or ~20 headcount eliminations.

She already humiliated Golden Frieza and CSSB Goku for good measure to show off her dangerous potential anyhow. Oh, and almost knocked out Toppo and CSSB Vegeta too.

Eliminating four universes at once felt rushed because she just plowed on through it all, picking each universe off one by one like they were properly lining up to be dropped off. I don't particularly care about the U6 Namekians but even I agree the way they were taken out drastically decreased the narrative significance of Namekians, considering we they're one of the few races which has mattered in all of DB.

[Lionel]

Personally, I thought there was more conceptual intrigue in the U6 Namekians than a modernist interpretation of the Broly archetype -- one which we're getting in yet another movie focused on the actual character anyway. We know very little about the Universe 6 Namekians or their development as a society and possible warrior class. It was a big waste to dispose of them so hastily.

[TKA]

Like Freeza?

Did you even read the chapter? Because it was made quite clear that any ground she gained on Frieza came from him being caught off guard. The dragonball fandom, more than any other, seems to be unable to comprehend the entire concept of context. This is pretty much the same as when people insisted Toppo was stronger because he beat Goku, even though the manga made it obvious Goku let his guard down and Toppo took advantage (and then it even had Toppo tell Goku he let his guard down).

[Doctor.]

Like Freeza?

Did you even read the chapter? Because it was made quite clear that any ground she gained on Frieza came from him being caught off guard. The dragonball fandom, more than any other, seems to be unable to comprehend the entire concept of context. This is pretty much the same as when people insisted Toppo was stronger because he beat Goku, even though the manga made it obvious Goku let his guard down and Toppo took advantage (and then it even had Toppo tell Goku he let his guard down).

Yes, that's what was stated. What I actually saw, however, was Freeza unable to cause any damage to Kale even when Goku joined in. It's no different than SSB Goku getting manhandled in the anime while the story damage controls and says he was holding back.

[Rakurai]

Like Freeza?

Did you even read the chapter? Because it was made quite clear that any ground she gained on Frieza came from him being caught off guard. The dragonball fandom, more than any other, seems to be unable to comprehend the entire concept of context. This is pretty much the same as when people insisted Toppo was stronger because he beat Goku, even though the manga made it obvious Goku let his guard down and Toppo took advantage (and then it even had Toppo tell Goku he let his guard down).

Kale literally walked up to Frieza and backhanded him across the arena. That's not getting caught off-guard, that was just straight-up being overpowered.

CSSB Goku had to go on the defense against Kale and was almost knocked out were it not for Frieza. Also not getting caught off-guard.

She was very much a threat to them in that short amount of time when her power kept spiking. Of course, she ended up self-destructing but it's very much possible she could've taken at least one of the larger threats out if her focus was solely on them. Look at how she effortlessly took out Aniraza with a focused kick in the gut.

Now I wonder how Broly's power, if he is connected to Kale in terms of genealogy, would be handled. I'm thinking that Broly would have had the proper training and discipline from Paragus to contain his incredible power, whereas Kale was a street rat who never had such tutelage.

Personally, I thought there was more conceptual intrigue in the U6 Namekians than a modernist interpretation of the Broly archetype -- one which we're getting in yet another movie focused on the actual character anyway. We know very little about the Universe 6 Namekians or their development as a society and possible warrior class. It was a big waste to dispose of them so hastily.

I was half-hoping one of them would be a healer like Dende, from the Dragon Clan. Could've done what U7 failed to do (i.e. bring in a healer like Buu) and make for a more interesting turn of events for U6. Wasted potential indeed, even if they were ultimately a Toei idea.

[TKA]

Kale literally walked up to Frieza and backhanded him across the arena. That's not getting caught off-guard, that was just straight-up being overpowered.

CSSB Goku had to go on the defense against Kale and was almost knocked out were it not for Frieza. Also not getting caught off-guard.

Let me do it page by page for you.

Frieza was beating on the kids without any trouble. Kale then transformed, and he's like "wait, what?" Then, while he was disparaging her for using just another transformation, she attacks him. Note that he hasn't even turned around to face her. That's how little he thinks of her. After her combo on him, he gets up and is smiling, still unimpressed. Keeping his cool isn't Frieza forté. If he thought she was stronger or as strong as he is, he would be freaking out.

As for Goku, Kale wasn't a match for him. He dodged and blocked most of her punches pretty easily. One was finally about to hit him when Frieza kicked him out of the way. She only opened his guard after he was taken aback by her continually increasing power level.

You could make the argument that Kale is on their level if these were the only case of God-level fighters interacting with her, but they aren't.

In the next chapter, she blindsides Toppo and Vegeta with direct attacks, but we clearly see that neither is damaged by this and Vegeta especially is just annoyed rather than injured. Then, later in the chapter Vegeta says the only thing Kale has going for her is surprise attacks and once you stop being surprised by her she's pretty easy to handle. Good observation on his part since every bit of ground she gained against Goku and Frieza can be attributed to them not taking her seriously until it was too late.

[Rakurai]

Let me do it page by page for you.

Frieza was beating on the kids without any trouble. Kale then transformed, and he's like "wait, what?" Then, while he was disparaging her for using just another transformation, she attacks him. Note that he hasn't even turned around to face her. That's how little he thinks of her. After her combo on him, he gets up and is smiling, still unimpressed. Keeping his cool isn't Frieza forté. If he thought she was stronger or as strong as he is, he would be freaking out.

And he did freak out, in the last panel where she's still powering up.

Spoiler:

As for Goku, Kale wasn't a match for him. He dodged and blocked most of her punches pretty easily. One was finally about to hit him when Frieza kicked him out of the way. She only opened his guard after he was taken aback by her continually increasing power level.

So the fact of the matter remains that her power kept rising to the point where he couldn't keep up. Because that was her whole shtick of course.

In the next chapter, she blindsides Toppo and Vegeta with direct attacks, but we clearly see that neither is damaged by this and Vegeta especially is just annoyed rather than injured. Then, later in the chapter Vegeta says the only thing Kale has going for her is surprise attacks and once you stop being surprised by her she's pretty easy to handle. Good observation on his part since every bit of ground she gained against Goku and Frieza can be attributed to them not taking her seriously until it was too late.

She didn't blindside anyone. Literally in that same panel you post, Vegeta comments on her while they're both looking in her direction. And she goes after them first. And she blows them away from the arena.

Now look at CSSB Vegeta rushing Toppo in the same manner. Look how well Toppo guarded against him.

Spoiler:

And Goku not taking her seriously? Are you for reals? The fact that Goku went CSSB just to guard her punch means he was being serious on her. I don't know how else one would interpret this, this ain't the anime where Goku uses it for every single little thing.

She almost eliminated CSSB Goku, CSSB Vegeta, and Toppo. In none of those instances did she blindside them. This ain't a death match, all she needed to do was knock them off the stage which she was certainly capable of at her peak.

[YamiGoku]

I think this video sums up everything i think about Toyotaro and his manga: https://youtu.be/K5uscyx0OpU?t=238

[BanterTheGreat]

I think this video sums up everything i think about Toyotaro and his manga: https://youtu.be/K5uscyx0OpU?t=238

I am not gonna watch a whole 10 minute video with a clickbait title and memes thrown in. Sorry.

[Nokra]

I think this video sums up everything i think about Toyotaro and his manga: https://youtu.be/K5uscyx0OpU?t=238

I am not gonna watch a whole 10 minute video with a clickbait title and memes thrown in. Sorry.

The video speaks facts though. The manga is just not that good

[Marlowe89]

It's no different than SSB Goku getting manhandled in the anime while the story damage controls and says he was holding back.

While I'd agree that it could be another parallel, that part was definitely more ambiguous.

I tend to see people citing Goku's usage of "chotto" to mean he was holding back by only using "a little" more power with Blue than the Super Saiyan form he used a moment prior. Problem is, "chotto" is colloquially a vague, often euphemistic term. You don't have to take my word for it.

I'd contend that, as far as dialogue is concerned, the manga was relatively more specific about Kale's standing on the totem pole than the anime ever was.

[TKA]

stuff.

I really don't wanna get into a lengthy discussion about how to interpret comics, and I also don't wanna get into a power level discussion.

With these in mind, let's just go back to the original comment:

Kale transforming and then rapidly eliminating people added actual gravitas to the form, without shallow reference weirdness like her walking through Kamehamehas and beating on characters that should be above her.

My point stands. The sheer fact that her strength can be debated whether she's on par with god-level characters in the manga or not speaks volumes. In the anime, it's pretty cut and dry with her walking through Kamehas. At that point, the form becomes ridiculous and tension-breaking because it so proudly goes against the logic of the setting. From an extradiegetic perspective, you also know it only happened because they wanted to reference the old Broly movie, which makes it even less palatable.

[Bergamo]

stuff.

I really don't wanna get into a lengthy discussion about how to interpret comics, and I also don't wanna get into a power level discussion.

With these in mind, let's just go back to the original comment:

Kale transforming and then rapidly eliminating people added actual gravitas to the form, without shallow reference weirdness like her walking through Kamehamehas and beating on characters that should be above her.

My point stands. The sheer fact that her strength can be debated whether she's on par with god-level characters in the manga or not speaks volumes. In the anime, it's pretty cut and dry with her walking through Kamehas. At that point, the form becomes ridiculous and tension-breaking because it so proudly goes against the logic of the setting. From an extradiegetic perspective, you also know it only happened because they wanted to reference the old Broly movie, which makes it even less palatable.

I think it's jarring when Kale walks through a SSB kamehameha without flinching, and then is later struggling with SSG Goku. Either Goku was holding back for no reason or he got astronomically stronger over the course of about 30 minutes. Both situations ruin the immersion of the tournament to an extent.