Miracles wrote:
I've been saying that. The purple cat has the STORY on his side. You guys got nothing but headcannon. The story has already stated that Beerus has a fated prophesied battle with Goku.
Yet people are saying he is surpassed. When the story stated no such thing. That's a complete contradiction of story facts. I like truth and the truth is nothing indicates Beerus is surpassed.
It has nothing to do with convincing people or not. The fact is people are just flat out wrong and your being told about it.
Okay then, let's analyze these facts, shall we?
Whis makes mention of a mortal who even a God of Destruction (the usage of the terminology implies as a whole, rather than a specific one) cannot defeat, then states that this God of Destruction is even stronger than Beerus. Beerus contests this by stating it was just an arm-wrestling match, but his demeanour during this exchange implies that he was just trying to save face and that Whis was relatively on the mark.
Jiren then completely dominates SSB/KKx20 Goku whilst still remaining heavily suppressed, with Whis confirming that Jiren is indeed the mortal of rumour who has reached the level of a God of Destruction and potentially even surpassed it (once again, using the terminology in a general sense, implying the level of God of Destruction as a whole rather than any particular one). We then see that Ultra Instinct Goku gets all of the Gods of Destruction standing, including Beerus, while Jiren, this mortal who has surpassed THEIR level, goes at him at full power to no avail.
Then, Jiren awakens hidden power by remembering his past trauma and becomes far stronger than his full power; he only barely manages to match up with Ultra Instinct Goku.
Sounds to me as though you're making erroneous comparisons where the dialogue and scenes imply a different context than what you espouse. And of course, you'll try and contest this by saying that I'm bending the facts and fabricating details, when in fact I was only doing the same as you: interpreting the facts based on how they appear to me.
Look at the bold words in your post. "IMPLIES" is your quick sand. You aren't being objective. You even leave out the only clear fact how Jiren was only specifically stated to surpass Belmound only too.
I stated facts, the story has Goku trying to surpass Beerus due to their fated battle. Yet you are trying to say opposite from the story.
You've also failed to put out evidence that clearly puts Belmod below Gods of Destruction like Beerus. As well, bringing up the age-old information about Beerus's dream is irrelevant because it only applied to Battle of Gods, with SSG Goku and retroactively Yamoshi's spirit.
I, however, have stated exactly all the facts with a bit of my own interpretation in brackets, along with basic character trait analysis of body language and other actions. I studied in psychology, and to me Beerus has showcased a clear sense of trying to save face in the face of objectively stated inferiority by the much wiser and more knowledgeable Whis by brushing him off and using his position compared to the rest of the cast with Whis's own nonchalance.
You have yet to actually PROVE that the intention is that Beerus is a purposely moving goalpost. No showrunner statements that apply to the current material, no statements that prove the negative you're espousing, nothing.
I think the dialog and reactions from various characters, including Beerus himself can strongly indicate that Ultra Goku has surpassed him.
Personally, I like the idea that Beerus is still the top-dog (God backwards! And he's a cat, so its twice as funny) but I dont think that's what the show was implied. However, I'm hopeful that we are either shown some scenes of Beerus training with Whis. Maybe he doesn't like that Goku has attained Ultra and wants to stay on top. Or we get some simple lines that Whis says " Well Beerus, it looks like those 6 months of training really helped regain your title as strongest in this Universe".
This could lead to pretty cool rematch between Goku and Beerus. Or Mabye even an epic 2 v 1 Goku/Vegeta vs Beerus.
" I swear on that faith I can never back down now" - Goku
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Okay then, let's analyze these facts, shall we?
Whis makes mention of a mortal who even a God of Destruction (the usage of the terminology implies as a whole, rather than a specific one) cannot defeat, then states that this God of Destruction is even stronger than Beerus. Beerus contests this by stating it was just an arm-wrestling match, but his demeanour during this exchange implies that he was just trying to save face and that Whis was relatively on the mark.
Jiren then completely dominates SSB/KKx20 Goku whilst still remaining heavily suppressed, with Whis confirming that Jiren is indeed the mortal of rumour who has reached the level of a God of Destruction and potentially even surpassed it (once again, using the terminology in a general sense, implying the level of God of Destruction as a whole rather than any particular one). We then see that Ultra Instinct Goku gets all of the Gods of Destruction standing, including Beerus, while Jiren, this mortal who has surpassed THEIR level, goes at him at full power to no avail.
Then, Jiren awakens hidden power by remembering his past trauma and becomes far stronger than his full power; he only barely manages to match up with Ultra Instinct Goku.
Sounds to me as though you're making erroneous comparisons where the dialogue and scenes imply a different context than what you espouse. And of course, you'll try and contest this by saying that I'm bending the facts and fabricating details, when in fact I was only doing the same as you: interpreting the facts based on how they appear to me.
Look at the bold words in your post. "IMPLIES" is your quick sand. You aren't being objective. You even leave out the only clear fact how Jiren was only specifically stated to surpass Belmound only too.
I stated facts, the story has Goku trying to surpass Beerus due to their fated battle. Yet you are trying to say opposite from the story.
You've also failed to put out evidence that clearly puts Belmod below Gods of Destruction like Beerus. As well, bringing up the age-old information about Beerus's dream is irrelevant because it only applied to Battle of Gods, with SSG Goku and retroactively Yamoshi's spirit.
I, however, have stated exactly all the facts with a bit of my own interpretation in brackets, along with basic character trait analysis of body language and other actions. I studied in psychology, and to me Beerus has showcased a clear sense of trying to save face in the face of objectively stated inferiority by the much wiser and more knowledgeable Whis by brushing him off and using his position compared to the rest of the cast with Whis's own nonchalance.
You have yet to actually PROVE that the intention is that Beerus is a purposely moving goalpost. No showrunner statements that apply to the current material, no statements that prove the negative you're espousing, nothing.
Spoiler:
It's even a plot point in the manga...
Why did you decide on a conclusion where [Super Saiyan] God Goku loses to Beerus?
Toriyama: "Story-wise, that development seemed like a gamble, but it was out of respect for the character of Beerus, God of Destruction. I wanted to have a development where, by his being unable to win, you could get a sense of a further future for Goku and the other Saiyans."
Toyotarō:
… I get the feeling I’ve just heard something amazing (laughs). Lord Beerus and Whis turn up in Dragon Ball Super, and have become an unsurpassable wall for Goku and the gang. What do the two of them mean to you?
Toriyama:
Well… First off, right now I don’t have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis.
Toyotarō:
Ever since Battle of Gods, Beerus and Whis have become central figures.
Toriyama:
If it hadn’t been for those two, making any more story after that would have been a nightmare. There wouldn’t have been anything to expand upon. That’s why I’m so glad to have them around. And their voices are good, too! Those voice artists are so talented!
These are proven on going plot point facts of the story! Never does the story contradicts this. It never says Jiren surpassed Beerus or Goku for that matter. You guys are just appealing to emotion fallacy.
Still didn't answer anything. It's not relevant to the time of the Tournament of Power's creation or even the Future Trunks Arc for that matter, Toriyama easily changes his mind when he says something, and it's not like that particular story thread ever actually went anywhere.
Goku no longer seeks to surpass Beerus as a specific goal-post with fighters even stronger than the level of God of Destruction showing up, and Beerus no longer specifically wants to fight Goku and Vegeta anymore. Beerus is a God of Destruction on the level of a God of Destruction, and Goku has finally surpassed that level and seeks to do so again; his eyes have been opened thanks to Jiren, Ultra Instinct, and the limit-breaking potential that the Tournament of Power brought out in himself and others.
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:"State of the Gods" just refers to Ultra Instinct. Ultra Instinct is a state of the Gods. Vegeta's statement had nothing to do with the Gods of Destruction, just like Whis' usage of the term had nothing to do with them.
And there's no reason why Toppo would be magically weaker than every other God of Destruction. Nothing implies it and it's nonsensical for people to claim that that despite being stated to be a God of Destruction no different from any other by Belmod, he for some reason was nowhere near their level. None of the Gods of Destruction are "fodder" to any of the others as seen in their match in the manga. Beerus can't wipe the floor with any God of Destruction. So no he can't beat Vegeta.
Toppo is still a God of Destruction candidate after all.
Vegeta can't beat Beerus since UI Omen Goku can't.
Toppo being a God candidate means nothing against him. If you're a candidate then you're already regarded as suitable enough. He's stated to be no different from a God of Destruction.
ssj3kakarot wrote:
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:"State of the Gods" just refers to Ultra Instinct. Ultra Instinct is a state of the Gods. Vegeta's statement had nothing to do with the Gods of Destruction, just like Whis' usage of the term had nothing to do with them.
And there's no reason why Toppo would be magically weaker than every other God of Destruction. Nothing implies it and it's nonsensical for people to claim that that despite being stated to be a God of Destruction no different from any other by Belmod, he for some reason was nowhere near their level. None of the Gods of Destruction are "fodder" to any of the others as seen in their match in the manga. Beerus can't wipe the floor with any God of Destruction. So no he can't beat Vegeta.
Ultra Instinct was never been stated to be a state of the Gods, first and foremost. We can reasonably deduce that it's actually more a state of the angels. Probably closer to a technique of the angels. Especiall since it seems that none of the current Gods of Destruction seem to be able to use mastered Ultra at will or at all, in the anime at least. Beerus wasn't even sure that Goku was in masterd ultra, and had to ask Whis. Further, Whis seems to be the only one who knows anything about ultra.r
Anyway, back to the real backwards thinking. You find no reason that Toppo should be weaker? No reason? So all saiyans are born with similar power levels? Are all super saiyans have similar power levels? Supreme Kais have been shown to have
wildly different power levels? Why would Gods of Destruction's be any different? Gods who have been Gods of Destructions for thousands of years. We don't even really understand how God of Destruction works even. Is it a transformation that you are taught? Do you need a certain power level to even undergo the process?
It's not Toppo being magically weaker,its him being vastly newer to the game. Belmods statement about Toppo being no different was that in kind, not in power level. And their match in the manga has very little weight in a anime discussion. If we are to use the manga, it only furthers my point that people like Belmod, Beerus, and Ratface, are probably the top 3 Gods. The manga doesn't help your case, it hurts it.
Ultra Instinct is stated to be a state of the Gods by Whis and Vegeta. The Angels are Gods. The Kaioshin, Gods of Destruction, Angels and Zeno are all Gods. If Toppo is vastly weaker than he isn't the same. Him being a God for less time than the others isn't stated to be relevant to anything. He was comparable to the rest on all areas. The level of power is part of what defines a God of Destruction. There is a power requirement. People like Jiren are stated to have surpassed that state due to his power. None of the Gods of Destruction have surpassed the state. They all share the same plane of power hence why they're always talked about as a whole when power comparisons are brought up. There is no "he's way weaker than Beerus but a lot stronger than Sidra".
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:"State of the Gods" just refers to Ultra Instinct. Ultra Instinct is a state of the Gods. Vegeta's statement had nothing to do with the Gods of Destruction, just like Whis' usage of the term had nothing to do with them.
And there's no reason why Toppo would be magically weaker than every other God of Destruction. Nothing implies it and it's nonsensical for people to claim that that despite being stated to be a God of Destruction no different from any other by Belmod, he for some reason was nowhere near their level. None of the Gods of Destruction are "fodder" to any of the others as seen in their match in the manga. Beerus can't wipe the floor with any God of Destruction. So no he can't beat Vegeta.
Toppo is still a God of Destruction candidate after all.
Vegeta can't beat Beerus since UI Omen Goku can't.
Toppo being a God candidate means nothing against him. If you're a candidate then you're already regarded as suitable enough. He's stated to be no different from a God of Destruction.
ssj3kakarot wrote:
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:"State of the Gods" just refers to Ultra Instinct. Ultra Instinct is a state of the Gods. Vegeta's statement had nothing to do with the Gods of Destruction, just like Whis' usage of the term had nothing to do with them.
And there's no reason why Toppo would be magically weaker than every other God of Destruction. Nothing implies it and it's nonsensical for people to claim that that despite being stated to be a God of Destruction no different from any other by Belmod, he for some reason was nowhere near their level. None of the Gods of Destruction are "fodder" to any of the others as seen in their match in the manga. Beerus can't wipe the floor with any God of Destruction. So no he can't beat Vegeta.
Ultra Instinct was never been stated to be a state of the Gods, first and foremost. We can reasonably deduce that it's actually more a state of the angels. Probably closer to a technique of the angels. Especiall since it seems that none of the current Gods of Destruction seem to be able to use mastered Ultra at will or at all, in the anime at least. Beerus wasn't even sure that Goku was in masterd ultra, and had to ask Whis. Further, Whis seems to be the only one who knows anything about ultra.r
Anyway, back to the real backwards thinking. You find no reason that Toppo should be weaker? No reason? So all saiyans are born with similar power levels? Are all super saiyans have similar power levels? Supreme Kais have been shown to have
wildly different power levels? Why would Gods of Destruction's be any different? Gods who have been Gods of Destructions for thousands of years. We don't even really understand how God of Destruction works even. Is it a transformation that you are taught? Do you need a certain power level to even undergo the process?
It's not Toppo being magically weaker,its him being vastly newer to the game. Belmods statement about Toppo being no different was that in kind, not in power level. And their match in the manga has very little weight in a anime discussion. If we are to use the manga, it only furthers my point that people like Belmod, Beerus, and Ratface, are probably the top 3 Gods. The manga doesn't help your case, it hurts it.
Ultra Instinct is stated to be a state of the Gods by Whis and Vegeta. The Angels are Gods. The Kaioshin, Gods of Destruction, Angels and Zeno are all Gods. If Toppo is vastly weaker than he isn't the same. Him being a God for less time than the others isn't stated to be relevant to anything. He was comparable to the rest on all areas. The level of power is part of what defines a God of Destruction. There is a power requirement. People like Jiren are stated to have surpassed that state due to his power. None of the Gods of Destruction have surpassed the state. They all share the same plane of power hence why they're always talked about as a whole when power comparisons are brought up. There is no "he's way weaker than Beerus but a lot stronger than Sidra".
Goku was stated in official material to be on par with Beerus in the 3rd UI Omen state, and 3rd UI Omen is substantially stronger than SSBE Vegeta, who beat the crap out of Toppo. Therefore, Beerus is WAY stronger than Toppo and your entire argument falls apart. It's very simple, you're just confused.
Spoiler:
Super carries on much of Dragon Ball and Z's charm in ways that might not immediately be obvious, while also bringing something new to the table. I certainly can't think of any previous arcs like Goku Black, and, for all its problems, the Tournament of Power is possibly the most ambitious storytelling endeavor in series history as far as how its narrative unfolds. It's also a thrill ride, which is all I wanted and exactly what I got. Super also canonizes decades old fan theories in ways that very naturally tie into the overall fabric of Dragon Ball's world in satisfying ways. All in all, Dragon Ball, Z, and Super are all well worth experiencing.
UI is a technique hard to master even for a GoD.
This implies some GoDs have mastered it... though they might have been past GoDs and not any of the current ones
That said: Full Power Jiren is stronger than Bermod, though we don't know how much.
From the manga and the fact nobody ever suggested otherwise, it's unlikely there is too much difference between GoDs.
Bermod states GoD Toppo is for all intents and purposes the same thing as a regular GoD.
Blue Evolution is stronger than GoD Toppo.
Blue Kaiohken x20 is about the same level as Blue Evolution.
Serious Jiren basically manhandles two "stronger-than-a-GoD-general-level" opponents at the same time, as well as dealing with Freeza and #17.
Wish stated pre-ToP Goku and Vegeta fighting in concert could actually take on Beerus.
He shrugs off Blue Evolution's Full Charge Final Flash as "not half bad". No way in hell that wasn't more or less about the same level of his Final Explosion that defeated GoD Toppo
UIOmen #3 forces Jiren to actually put serious effort
This means UIOmen #3 was not less than as strong as 3(very minimum: most likely not less than 5) GoD level fighters.
As said before, it's unlikely there is a large difference in power between GoDs.
1. That's a statement implying superiority, not equality.
2. Even Herms seems to think it's phrased too ambiguously to prove anything.
3. It's presented as dialogue from Beerus in the episode it was previewing at the time, which doesn't appear in the finished/aired version of the episode.
Not that I'm pushing any position one way or the other, but those are important factors to keep in mind.
1. That's a statement implying superiority, not equality.
The fact that he is questioning whether or not this is the case implies that they are close and it is hard to determine exactly. And that is exactly what I was trying to say. "On par" as in they are around the same level even if they aren't EXACTLY the same. Whether or not there's a strict equality is irrelevant to what I was trying to say.
Spoiler:
Super carries on much of Dragon Ball and Z's charm in ways that might not immediately be obvious, while also bringing something new to the table. I certainly can't think of any previous arcs like Goku Black, and, for all its problems, the Tournament of Power is possibly the most ambitious storytelling endeavor in series history as far as how its narrative unfolds. It's also a thrill ride, which is all I wanted and exactly what I got. Super also canonizes decades old fan theories in ways that very naturally tie into the overall fabric of Dragon Ball's world in satisfying ways. All in all, Dragon Ball, Z, and Super are all well worth experiencing.
ZombieVito wrote:
Toppo is still a God of Destruction candidate after all.
Vegeta can't beat Beerus since UI Omen Goku can't.
Toppo being a God candidate means nothing against him. If you're a candidate then you're already regarded as suitable enough. He's stated to be no different from a God of Destruction.
ssj3kakarot wrote:
Ultra Instinct was never been stated to be a state of the Gods, first and foremost. We can reasonably deduce that it's actually more a state of the angels. Probably closer to a technique of the angels. Especiall since it seems that none of the current Gods of Destruction seem to be able to use mastered Ultra at will or at all, in the anime at least. Beerus wasn't even sure that Goku was in masterd ultra, and had to ask Whis. Further, Whis seems to be the only one who knows anything about ultra.r
Anyway, back to the real backwards thinking. You find no reason that Toppo should be weaker? No reason? So all saiyans are born with similar power levels? Are all super saiyans have similar power levels? Supreme Kais have been shown to have
wildly different power levels? Why would Gods of Destruction's be any different? Gods who have been Gods of Destructions for thousands of years. We don't even really understand how God of Destruction works even. Is it a transformation that you are taught? Do you need a certain power level to even undergo the process?
It's not Toppo being magically weaker,its him being vastly newer to the game. Belmods statement about Toppo being no different was that in kind, not in power level. And their match in the manga has very little weight in a anime discussion. If we are to use the manga, it only furthers my point that people like Belmod, Beerus, and Ratface, are probably the top 3 Gods. The manga doesn't help your case, it hurts it.
Ultra Instinct is stated to be a state of the Gods by Whis and Vegeta. The Angels are Gods. The Kaioshin, Gods of Destruction, Angels and Zeno are all Gods. If Toppo is vastly weaker than he isn't the same. Him being a God for less time than the others isn't stated to be relevant to anything. He was comparable to the rest on all areas. The level of power is part of what defines a God of Destruction. There is a power requirement. People like Jiren are stated to have surpassed that state due to his power. None of the Gods of Destruction have surpassed the state. They all share the same plane of power hence why they're always talked about as a whole when power comparisons are brought up. There is no "he's way weaker than Beerus but a lot stronger than Sidra".
Goku was stated in official material to be on par with Beerus in the 3rd UI Omen state, and 3rd UI Omen is substantially stronger than SSBE Vegeta, who beat the crap out of Toppo. Therefore, Beerus is WAY stronger than Toppo and your entire argument falls apart. It's very simple, you're just confused.
Goku was never stated to be equal to Beerus upon his 3rd UI usage. Ever. This isn't even a difference of interpretation, it literally doesn't say that. You're making it up. It makes no attempt to quantify the gap that exists between them.
PFM18 wrote:"On par" as in they are around the same level even if they aren't EXACTLY the same. Whether or not there's a strict equality is irrelevant to what I was trying to say.
Then that's on you for articulating yourself poorly when you presented the following argument:
PFM18 wrote:Official material in a Jump Magazine said that they were equal to each other.
No, official material in a Jump magazine literally didn't say that.
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:Goku was never stated to be equal to Beerus upon his 3rd UI usage. Ever. This isn't even a difference of interpretation, it literally doesn't say that. You're making it up.
Wouldn't be the first time he's twisted/fabricated nonexistent dialogue to support an unsupported point.
Marlowe89 wrote:Then that's on you for articulating yourself poorly when you presented the following argument:
I mean yeah my bad, I guess I could have articulated it better, but you're just arguing semantics at this point.
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:Goku was never stated to be equal to Beerus upon his 3rd UI usage. Ever. This isn't even a difference of interpretation, it literally doesn't say that. You're making it up. It makes no attempt to quantify the gap that exists between them.
That's not even the verbatim I used in the post you quoted. "On par" as in about equal. That's obviously the implication when they said that "Goku might be stronger than Beerus!" the fact that it is in question pretty much shows that they are very close.
Wouldn't be the first time he's twisted/fabricated nonexistent dialogue to support an unsupported point.
Yeah it would, actually.
This certainly wouldn't be the 1st time you went out of your way to throw out insults in the most condescending way possible. Or the 2nd time...or the 3rd...
Wish stated pre-ToP Goku and Vegeta fighting in concert could actually take on Beerus.
He shrugs off Blue Evolution's Full Charge Final Flash as "not half bad". No way in hell that wasn't more or less about the same level of his Final Explosion that defeated GoD Toppo
Both of these comments are wrong. Whis said that in the RoF movie that has long since been retconned. Vegeta's Fully Charged Final Flash was before he achieved Blue Evolution. That's factually incorrect.
Spoiler:
Super carries on much of Dragon Ball and Z's charm in ways that might not immediately be obvious, while also bringing something new to the table. I certainly can't think of any previous arcs like Goku Black, and, for all its problems, the Tournament of Power is possibly the most ambitious storytelling endeavor in series history as far as how its narrative unfolds. It's also a thrill ride, which is all I wanted and exactly what I got. Super also canonizes decades old fan theories in ways that very naturally tie into the overall fabric of Dragon Ball's world in satisfying ways. All in all, Dragon Ball, Z, and Super are all well worth experiencing.
Wish stated pre-ToP Goku and Vegeta fighting in concert could actually take on Beerus.
He shrugs off Blue Evolution's Full Charge Final Flash as "not half bad". No way in hell that wasn't more or less about the same level of his Final Explosion that defeated GoD Toppo
Both of these comments are wrong. Whis said that in the RoF movie that has long since been retconned. Vegeta's Fully Charged Final Flash was before he achieved Blue Evolution. That's factually incorrect.
PFM18 wrote:
I don't think so. The way I see it 3rd Omen is roughly as strong as Beerus and UI is way stronger than Beerus. Then when Goku gets enraged in UI and beats Limits Broken Jiren he is dramatically above Beerus IMO. Or at least, that's the way it SHOULD be. Toriyama could come out today and say Beerus is 6x stronger than UI Goku and I wouldn't be that shocked.
I guess I just find it small because I still follow Toriyama's BoG numbers for Whis (15) and Beerus (10). So I can't really make Goku grow that much stronger yet.
Eh, I guess I can make UI Goku 11 and his enraged power like a 13 and not contradict anything.
PFM18 wrote:
I don't think so. The way I see it 3rd Omen is roughly as strong as Beerus and UI is way stronger than Beerus. Then when Goku gets enraged in UI and beats Limits Broken Jiren he is dramatically above Beerus IMO. Or at least, that's the way it SHOULD be. Toriyama could come out today and say Beerus is 6x stronger than UI Goku and I wouldn't be that shocked.
I guess I just find it small because I still follow Toriyama's BoG numbers for Whis (15) and Beerus (10). So I can't really make Goku grow that much stronger yet.
Eh, I guess I can make UI Goku 11 and his enraged power like a 13 and not contradict anything.
how could you possibly make the BoG numbers work with all we know now? I just assumed they were retconned forever ago
Spoiler:
Super carries on much of Dragon Ball and Z's charm in ways that might not immediately be obvious, while also bringing something new to the table. I certainly can't think of any previous arcs like Goku Black, and, for all its problems, the Tournament of Power is possibly the most ambitious storytelling endeavor in series history as far as how its narrative unfolds. It's also a thrill ride, which is all I wanted and exactly what I got. Super also canonizes decades old fan theories in ways that very naturally tie into the overall fabric of Dragon Ball's world in satisfying ways. All in all, Dragon Ball, Z, and Super are all well worth experiencing.
PFM18 wrote:
how could you possibly make the BoG numbers work with all we know now? I just assumed they were retconned forever ago
Goku's number was. Beerus and Whis numbers can still work.
Oh so you just mean that you still consider Whis to be 1.5x Beerus? Or?
Spoiler:
Super carries on much of Dragon Ball and Z's charm in ways that might not immediately be obvious, while also bringing something new to the table. I certainly can't think of any previous arcs like Goku Black, and, for all its problems, the Tournament of Power is possibly the most ambitious storytelling endeavor in series history as far as how its narrative unfolds. It's also a thrill ride, which is all I wanted and exactly what I got. Super also canonizes decades old fan theories in ways that very naturally tie into the overall fabric of Dragon Ball's world in satisfying ways. All in all, Dragon Ball, Z, and Super are all well worth experiencing.
PFM18 wrote:
Oh so you just mean that you still consider Whis to be 1.5x Beerus? Or?
Of course, that hasn't been contradicted yet. SSG can't be a 6 anymore because of Kaioken.
Oh ok I gotcha now. That makes sense. Well even with SSB, SSG can't be a 6 because that would make it a minuscule increase over SSG which would be dumb.
Spoiler:
Super carries on much of Dragon Ball and Z's charm in ways that might not immediately be obvious, while also bringing something new to the table. I certainly can't think of any previous arcs like Goku Black, and, for all its problems, the Tournament of Power is possibly the most ambitious storytelling endeavor in series history as far as how its narrative unfolds. It's also a thrill ride, which is all I wanted and exactly what I got. Super also canonizes decades old fan theories in ways that very naturally tie into the overall fabric of Dragon Ball's world in satisfying ways. All in all, Dragon Ball, Z, and Super are all well worth experiencing.
